I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

Ook wrote in
news:349241.837.1336070376228.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbfr5:

I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into
the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter
indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of
digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they
are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go
all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe.
Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I
can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter,
but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day.
Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking
for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.


Any chance it could be a water softener or toilet losing the water? I
had a water softener stuck on back flush at one time.

Larry

On May 3, 2:39*pm, Ook wrote:
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

You don't really say what the "outside" plumbing is? I believe there
are acoustic tools. You need to find someone that specializes in
located underground leaks.

On May 3, 2:39*pm, Ook wrote:
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

You might try this:
http://www.duanecard.com/dowsing/dowse.htm

or

find the connection point and isolate each run

-----------------------------------------------------------
Get free backup service using Drop Box
Access your files from your smartphone or tablet
Bonus space provided using this link: http://db.tt/RIONkfbZ

If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny

On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny


plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve
and meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

On May 3, 3:46*pm, chaniarts wrote:
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:

If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. *Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... *My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? *Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. *A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny

plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve
and meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

In the USCG electronics school they called it Sectionalize, Localize,
Isolate.

He's already Sectionalized it: Outside plumbing vs. Inside plumbing.

Cutting the system in half would Localize it (it may take a couple of
localization steps, as you noted)

Eventually, he'll Isolate it.

On May 3, 2:39*pm, Ook wrote:
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

Interesting. You have a meter before the house shut off? I assume you
have main shutoff before the meter?

My main shutoff is before my meter and my outside spigots are after
the shutoff and meter.

chaniarts suggested using a binary search if it was plastic pipe. You
can do the same thing with copper and avoid soldering in the mud if
you don't mind spending a few bucks on Sharkbite fittings.

You can bench solder a shutoff onto a short length of copper, pop it
onto your exterior pipe with a Sharkbite connector to test, then pop
it off and install a Sharkbite repair coupling when you are done.

http://www.sharkbite.com/usa/en/product

On 5/3/2012 11:39 AM, Ook wrote:
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

What do you mean by "water meter indicator spins"? If you can see it
move, you'll probably soon have a sink hole that'll be easy to find.

There's an ultrasonic listening device that translates ultrasonic sounds
down to
audible frequencies. Works on small/fast leaks. Might be able to poke
a rod down into the ground and listen to it.

Call the utility and see if they have any advice. But you gotta get past
the robot and the first human line of defense.
I've had some success walking into the city water department
engineering office and whimpering. People are often willing to help.
It's the corporation that gets in the way.

At some point, it's cheaper to call a plumber. But you still gotta be
careful.

My neighbor had a leak under his driveway. They were about to take air
hammers to the driveway when I intervened and convinced them to put in a
whole new pipe around the driveway.

On 5/3/2012 1:23 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On May 3, 3:46 pm, wrote:
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:

If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny

plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve
and meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

In the USCG electronics school they called it Sectionalize, Localize,
Isolate.

He's already Sectionalized it: Outside plumbing vs. Inside plumbing.

Cutting the system in half would Localize it (it may take a couple of
localization steps, as you noted)

Eventually, he'll Isolate it.

Rather than dig/cut/cap, I'd start with poking a hole in the ground to pipe
depth with
a ground rod or some such. See if any water comes up the hole. Should
be clear water.

On 5/3/2012 2:39 PM, Ook wrote:
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

Could be the meter itself...enough access to check it?

On Thu, 3 May 2012 11:39:36 -0700 (PDT), Ook wrote:

I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.


Make sure the water going inside is really shut off. Did you open
faucets to verify that? Old valves can leak through, though they
appear closed.
You don't want to dig outside if it's really the toilet valve.

--
Vic

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny


plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve. turn
off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve and
meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to dig
up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

Horrible information!

B/4 digging call OOPS, otherwise it may turn into a huge expense for the
OP. B/4 cutting any supply line, which there is no shut off, exactly how do
you propose the OP to get a valve on? The water needs to be shut off first!

On 5/3/2012 2:49 PM, Monk wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny


plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve. turn
off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve and
meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to dig
up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

Horrible information!

B/4 digging call OOPS, otherwise it may turn into a huge expense for the
OP. B/4 cutting any supply line, which there is no shut off, exactly how do
you propose the OP to get a valve on? The water needs to be shut off first!

there should be a shutoff at the meter. otherwise, how would they
replace the meter if it developed problems?

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2012 2:49 PM, Monk wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny


plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn
off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve and
meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig
up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

Horrible information!

B/4 digging call OOPS, otherwise it may turn into a huge expense for
the
OP. B/4 cutting any supply line, which there is no shut off, exactly how
do
you propose the OP to get a valve on? The water needs to be shut off
first!

there should be a shutoff at the meter. otherwise, how would they replace
the meter if it developed problems?


Meters are usually inside for areas where it freezes, exactly how does
turning the shut off just b/4 the meter, help with digging outside?Just
like calling for an _OOPS_. Not calling can be dangerous, things like
electric & gas lines lurk below surfaces.

I once had a total remodel job, because someone shut off the kitchen sink
shut offs, to replace an upstairs tub faucet!

I'm wondering if it's possible to put a lot of food coloring into the line,
some how. Then, the leak will be a different color.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Ook" wrote in message
news:349241.837.1336070376228.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbfr5...
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the
house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator
spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up
my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no
they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the
house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred
foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have
to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the
leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in
and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet
spot or green spot is not really an option.

Adapt the pipe to your air compressor. Like a fitting from the RV section at
the Walmart. Put compressed air in, and look for bubbles.

Thinking with my mouth open, again.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On May 3, 4:23*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On May 3, 3:46*pm, chaniarts wrote:





On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:

If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. *Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... *My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? *Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. *A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny

plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve
and meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

In the USCG electronics school they called it Sectionalize, Localize,
Isolate.

He's already Sectionalized it: Outside plumbing vs. Inside plumbing.

Cutting the system in half would Localize it (it may take a couple of
localization steps, as you noted)

Eventually, he'll Isolate it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yup. That's the approach I would use. I don't
understand the layout either. It sounds like the
outside piping to spigots is tied to the meter?
Rather odd, at least around here. Normally the
water service comes in the house and then gets
branched out from there.

In any case, isolating sections is the way to narrow
down the leak. There are also pro leak finding services,
but what they charge may not be worth it for this.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 16:22:51 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 3 May 2012 11:39:36 -0700 (PDT), Ook wrote:

I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.


Make sure the water going inside is really shut off. Did you open
faucets to verify that? Old valves can leak through, though they
appear closed.
You don't want to dig outside if it's really the toilet valve.
REALLY easy to put that one to bed. If the shutoff valve is shut
off and you open a tap in the house you won't get water if the valve
is really shut. If you still get a steady flow of water, the valve is
not closed. If you don't it is. Why is everyone making it more
difficult than it really has to be. When you hear hoofbeats in Oregon
you don't go looking for Zebras, or Unicorns!!!.

"Monk" wrote

Meters are usually inside for areas where it freezes, exactly how does
turning the shut off just b/4 the meter, help with digging outside?Just
like calling for an _OOPS_. Not calling can be dangerous, things like
electric & gas lines lurk below surfaces.

In warm climates, meters are often at the street. Outdoor faucets can
branch off on the way to the house. In this case, the leak is between the
meter and house and that can be a long distance.

On May 3, 7:39*pm, Ook wrote:
I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

You need a large screwdriver as a "listening stick".
Push the blade against a pipe/solid object and the other end against
the bit of flesh in front of your ear. Leaks can be clearly heard
especially on metal pipes.

Check the pipes and see where you get the loudest noise.
Where the pipeis buried, hammer a metal rod into the ground and put
the blade against this,

You can buy a listening stick but a big screwdriver is just as good.
Do not confuse water rushing through a small orifice (eg valve) with
a leak BTW. Turn off stuff in the house

http://www.fluidconservation.com/st20ListeningStick.htm

On May 4, 7:54*am, harry wrote:
On May 3, 7:39*pm, Ook wrote:

I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.

Is there any way to tell where the leak is coming from short of digging up my water pipes? I only have two outside faucets (yes they are turned off, no they don't leak), but the pipes leading to them go all the way around the house, probably over a hundred feet of pipe. Somewhere along this hundred foot section of pipe there is a leak. I can dig the entire mess up if I have to, starting at the water meter, but is there an easier way to find the leak?

I live in the southern Wilamette Valley, Oregon. It rains. Every day. Day in and day out. The ground is mud from October to June, so looking for a wet spot or green spot is not really an option.

If the pipe is old it might be cheaper to just replace it all than
attempting a repair. Repairs can be difficult and unreliable on old
pipes.

On Thu, 3 May 2012 18:39:57 -0400, "Monk" wrote Re
How to find water leak?:

Meters are usually inside for areas where it freezes, exactly how does
turning the shut off just b/4 the meter, help with digging outside?

Well, if the meter is "inside", and the leak is before the meter, then
it's the water companies problem isn't it?
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 20:49:30 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 16:22:51 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Thu, 3 May 2012 11:39:36 -0700 (PDT), Ook wrote:

I have a water leak from an outside pipe. I shut off water going into the house, leaving only the outside plumbing on, and the water meter indicator spins, indicating water being used somewhere.


Make sure the water going inside is really shut off. Did you open
faucets to verify that? Old valves can leak through, though they
appear closed.
You don't want to dig outside if it's really the toilet valve.
REALLY easy to put that one to bed. If the shutoff valve is shut
off and you open a tap in the house you won't get water if the valve
is really shut. If you still get a steady flow of water, the valve is
not closed. If you don't it is. Why is everyone making it more
difficult than it really has to be. When you hear hoofbeats in Oregon
you don't go looking for Zebras, or Unicorns!!!.

So you agree with making sure the flow had stopped to the inside
before deciding it's leaking on the outside.
Good.
No indication the OP did that.

--
Vic

chaniarts wrote:
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e.,
the most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every
20 feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny

plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the
valve and meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

Interesting idea.

Now my mind can't help doing the math and wondering if a 1/3 -- 2/3 split
instead of a 50-50 split would work better. I don't know, but I am
imagining that every time a 1/3 -- 2/3 split is done, there is a 50-50
chance that the leak will be on the 1/3 section, which would mean the leak
would be narrowed down to a smaller section half the time. I know I am just
daydreaming here, but your approach did make me start to think about that.

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Thu, 3 May 2012 18:39:57 -0400, "Monk" wrote Re
How to find water leak?:

Meters are usually inside for areas where it freezes, exactly how
does turning the shut off just b/4 the meter, help with digging
outside?

Well, if the meter is "inside", and the leak is before the meter, then
it's the water companies problem isn't it?

And the leak will not show up on the meter.

On 5/3/2012 3:39 PM, Monk wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2012 2:49 PM, Monk wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e., the
most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every 20
feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny


plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn
off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the valve and
meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig
up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

Horrible information!

B/4 digging call OOPS, otherwise it may turn into a huge expense for
the
OP. B/4 cutting any supply line, which there is no shut off, exactly how
do
you propose the OP to get a valve on? The water needs to be shut off
first!

there should be a shutoff at the meter. otherwise, how would they replace
the meter if it developed problems?


Meters are usually inside for areas where it freezes, exactly how does
turning the shut off just b/4 the meter, help with digging outside?Just
like calling for an _OOPS_. Not calling can be dangerous, things like
electric& gas lines lurk below surfaces.
, to replace an upstairs tub faucet!

please try to keep up.

1: it's in oregon, and it rains the entire year. it doesn't freeze there.

2: if the leak is before the meter, then it's the water companies problem.

3: if the leak is before the meter, then turning off the shutoff valve
on his side of the meter won't spin the meter dial unless the leak is
between the valve and the meter, and they're likely to be within an
arm's reach, so he could see it, and not be in the 100' of pipe that he
said is already the problem.

4: he may not have to call the city to get his services mapped. he might
already know. i built my house, and know where everything buried is. you
don't know that the OP doesn't already have this information.

On 5/4/2012 7:57 AM, TomR wrote:
chaniarts wrote:
On 5/3/2012 12:17 PM, Sonny wrote:
If you have to dig, I would dig around each faucet first. Maybe one
of the faucets got hit by something and the leak is at one of the
elbows coming up or otherwise associated with one of them... i.e.,
the most likely spots to be damged by some above ground accident.

I'm not sure there's a way to tell if there's a leak along a long run
of pipe in the ground, but if you have to dig, maybe dig only every
20 feet, or where there's likely to be a joint in the piping.... My
second guess at where a leak would be is a joint.

Is there a driveway, of some kind, along the pipe's path? Maybe
driving over that area caused the leak at that spot. A tree root
nearby, that may have caused a break in the line as it grew larger?

Sonny

plastic pipe?

binary search. dig somewhere in the middle. cut and install a valve.
turn off. does it still happen? if so, it's somewhere between the
valve and meter. if not, it's the other half.

repeat until you get down to a length where it's not such a burden to
dig up a longer length of pipe to find out exactly where.

Interesting idea.

Now my mind can't help doing the math and wondering if a 1/3 -- 2/3 split
instead of a 50-50 split would work better. I don't know, but I am
imagining that every time a 1/3 -- 2/3 split is done, there is a 50-50
chance that the leak will be on the 1/3 section, which would mean the leak
would be narrowed down to a smaller section half the time. I know I am just
daydreaming here, but your approach did make me start to think about that.



you need to go back to your probability class.

a 1/3 -- 2/3 split is done, there is a 50-50 chance that the leak
will be on the 1/3 section

this is not correct.

you can find a name in a thick phone book in 14-15 searches. your task
can probably be done in no more than 4.

In warm climates, meters are often at the street. *Outdoor faucets can
branch off on the way to the house. * In this case, the leak is between the
meter and house and that can be a long distance.

That is exactly how it is. The meter is at the street. There is a 25
foot pipe, 3/4 inch, metal, that goes from meter into house - it comes
out in the basement. There is a shutoff valve at the meter. There is a
shutoff valve where the pipe comes into the basement, so I can shut
off the entire house.

Somewhere along this 30 foot section, it T's off to the outdoor
faucets, but I have no idea where - a rather obvious place would be
close to the house - like within a foot of the wall. If I can't find a
leak at the faucets, I would be very tempted to just cap that pipe. I
use a well to water the yard, and I have pvc running all around the
house for that. I never use city water for the yard - water is
terribly expensive here. I'd sooner cap the pipe than dig up 100' of
pipe looking for a leak.

I called the water co. They were worthless. As far as they are
concerned it isn't their problem and I should call a plumber.
Absolutely no help at all.

I live in a small town close to nowhere. Nearest real city is about an
hour or so away, if you can call them cities. Actually, Portland is
about 90 miles from here. No one closer than that has any acoustic
leak finders, and it would prohibitively expensive to have them come
here to check for it.

So I'm going for the listening stick approach first. If that doesn't
turn up anything, I'm going to dig up the meter and see if the pipe
coming out of that leaks. Then I dig up the faucets. Then I look for
the T and decide if I just want to cap it, or try to follow the pipe.
Capping it is sounding better and better if I can't find the leak in
obvious places.

Ook wrote:
In warm climates, meters are often at the street. Outdoor faucets can
branch off on the way to the house. In this case, the leak is
between the meter and house and that can be a long distance.

That is exactly how it is. The meter is at the street. There is a 25
foot pipe, 3/4 inch, metal, that goes from meter into house - it comes
out in the basement. There is a shutoff valve at the meter. There is a
shutoff valve where the pipe comes into the basement, so I can shut
off the entire house.

Somewhere along this 30 foot section, it T's off to the outdoor
faucets, but I have no idea where - a rather obvious place would be
close to the house - like within a foot of the wall. If I can't find a
leak at the faucets, I would be very tempted to just cap that pipe. I
use a well to water the yard, and I have pvc running all around the
house for that. I never use city water for the yard - water is
terribly expensive here. I'd sooner cap the pipe than dig up 100' of
pipe looking for a leak.

I called the water co. They were worthless. As far as they are
concerned it isn't their problem and I should call a plumber.
Absolutely no help at all.

I live in a small town close to nowhere. Nearest real city is about an
hour or so away, if you can call them cities. Actually, Portland is
about 90 miles from here. No one closer than that has any acoustic
leak finders, and it would prohibitively expensive to have them come
here to check for it.

So I'm going for the listening stick approach first. If that doesn't
turn up anything, I'm going to dig up the meter and see if the pipe
coming out of that leaks. Then I dig up the faucets. Then I look for
the T and decide if I just want to cap it, or try to follow the pipe.
Capping it is sounding better and better if I can't find the leak in
obvious places.

Interesting information. That's a clearer description of the piping layout
that you have. I think the good news is that, at worst, you would need to
replace the 25-30 foot line going from the meter to the house. At least
that's better than having to deal with 100 feet of underground pipe.

About how deep is the water pipe that goes from the meter to the house?
Hopefully it's just a few feet deep -- less than 5. If it is not too deep,
digging the whole 25 foot trench by hand down to the pipe may not be that
big of a deal. And, if it is something like 4 feet deep or less, it would
probably be safe enough where you could pay a high school kid $10-$15/hour
to do the dig and the fill-in if needed.

I assume, of course, that you did what others suggested about turning off
the water at the main shutoff inside the house and then opening a faucet
inside the house just to be sure that the main shutoff valve really does
shut off the water completely.

I think your idea of digging at one end -- such as at the meter -- first,
and then if that doesn't do it dig at the other end -- near the house -- is
a good plan. My preference may be to dig near the house first because the T
to the outside faucets is probably there. I would guess that they ran those
lines while the foundation ditch was still open so the lines probably run
along the house near the foundation wall to the outside faucets. If you dig
there first, you could cut and cap the faucet pipe line that comes off the
main first and see if that solves the problem.

I never heard of a listening stick and I can't picture it really working to
detect what I assume is a slow leak. But just because I never heard of it
doesn't mean it isn't a good tool and trick to try. If you do try it, let
us know how well it seems to work. And let us know what the final outcome
is once you do solve the leak mystery.

Good luck.