On 1/16/2012 12:33 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:37:26 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"hr(bob) wrote in message
news:90525220-bd56-48b7-9ace-

stuff snipped

The OP is correct. Just because a heavy gauge wire was used at the
panel does NOT mean that all the wiring from that point down to the
far end of the circuit is the same heavy gauge. What would happen if
there were a smaller gauge wire in the midpoint, and a heavy load
placed at the far end of the circuit. The breaker would hold, but the
smaller wire in the intermediate point of the chain would act as a
fuse (maybe), or maybe set the whole house on fire.

What I've seen happen far too often is someone tapping into a circuit
instead of pulling a new wire from the circuit breaker box. While a light
circuit is probably no big deal, adding outlets can easily overload a
circuit in a way that causes wires to overheat in the wall. That's one of
the reason I mark outlets and fixed lighting loads on the inside door of my
circuit panel. It's a Word document I print out on card stock and revise as
necessary.


NFPA somewhat saves you on 15 and 20a circuits with 240.4(D). A 14
gauge wire actually has an ampacity of 20a at 60c rating in 310.16 but
they make you put it on a 15a breaker to build in a80% safety
factor. They know users may keep plugging in stuff until the breaker
trips, then unplug the clock to see if it will hold
I agree if you put a 20a continuous load on a 14 gauge wire it will
get warmer than it should but it really should not cause a fire.
The one you see in older houses, with fuses, that is really troubling
is the 30a fuse on that 14 gauge wire.


or NO fuse. the very first rental we took on had the standard MAIN
RANGE plus 4 fuse panel. No less than 4 added circuits were hooked to
the hot side of the buss. I turned the MR+4 into a disconnect and put a
nice 100 A panel next to it and started over.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Changing the topic a little, but on that episode why did they use 2-8
foot ground rods by the meter outside? I thought only 1 ground rod was
sufficient.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 15:19:48 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

Changing the topic a little, but on that episode why did they use 2-8
foot ground rods by the meter outside? I thought only 1 ground rod was
sufficient.
Depends on the ground composition and conductivity. 2 rods is almost
standard practice around here

On 1/16/2012 5:19 PM, Mikepier wrote:
Changing the topic a little, but on that episode why did they use 2-8
foot ground rods by the meter outside? I thought only 1 ground rod was
sufficient.

two 8' x 5/8" diameter rods at least 6' apart are the minimum required.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

wrote in message
news
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

stuff snipped

I've got a very detailed description of the loads (and even outlets) that
each circuit powers on my circuit panel door. I update it every time I
make
a change to the panel. I created it by checking each circuit out
individually to see what did and didn't work after I flipped the
breakers.
I figure it's the least I can do for the next guy to own the house.

Most panel directories are so superficial that they are not that
useful. When I replaced my panel, I didn't bother to label anything. I
wanted a decent panel directory when I was done and I took the time
(half a day) to map every circuit by hooking them up one at a time.

The one in the fixer-upper I bought was written in light pencil that
half-smudged away and it also had a forged inspection sticker. While my
detailed circuit box directory might help the next guy, it's been most
useful to me when diagnosing X-10 problems. It's nice to know exactly what
outlets/devices you are powering down when looking for RFI emitters or
signal suckers. Fortunately, I don't do much of that kind of detective work
since I installed XTB amplifier/repeaters.

The detailed directory has had another payoff because it allows me to see at
a glance which outlets are downstream from a master GFCI. That's eliminated
at least a little bit of tail-chasing when an outlet goes dead for no
apparent reason.

As for the 15 vs 20a choice. 99% of the time, if this is not serving
the kitchen or the bath and laundry before the 90s you should default
to a 15a breaker unless you really know what is down stream. Most
builders used 14ga for virtually all of the branch circuits in a home.
If it is much older than the late 60s, the kitchen might even be 14ga.

That sounds like a good rule of thumb. I kinda knew something was wrong
when I found 20A breakers in a 70 year-old house attached to the original
cloth covered wiring. The old wiring has very long runs - up to the attic
and then down again. I added on new 20A circuits with 12/2 to the kitchen,
the bedroom/office and to the living room. Then I changed all the much
newer (but highly suspect) 20A breakers in the panel back to what they
probably were in the beginning - 15A (dual skinnies, actually). Since those
old, ungrounded outlets aren't carrying much of load anymore, I don't think
they've ever tripped.

I assume that as wire gets older, its current carrying capacity erodes and
in looking for information about that I found a great site:

http://www.interfire.org/features/el...ing_faults.asp

It's got some incredibly detailed studies on the causes of electrical fires.
"Fixed wiring" is listed as causing nearly twice the fires as any other
single cause. The two runners up we cords/plugs and light fixtures.

There are some other interesting studies that look at our old friend, the
back-stabbed outlet (whose name tends to indicate what they could do to
you!).

Table 2 Results from Ontario Hydro testing of duplex outlets with poor
connections

Wall paneling
Insulation
Covering over outlet plate
Wiring method
Results

wood
cellulose
cotton blanket
screw
scorching only

wood
cellulose
cotton blanket
back-wired
wood paneling and cellulose insulation ignited after 4 cycles

wood
cellulose
cotton blanket
back-wired
fuse blew in 4th cycle; paneling and insulation ignited after current
flow had ceased

gypsum wallboard
fiber glass
cotton drapery
back-wired
no ignitions after 42 cycles; plastic outlet parts charred




--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 06:44:51 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

When bad things happen, it's often because two or more things have gone
wrong at the same time. I think one of the reasons that backstabbing is
no
longer allowed on 12 gauge wires is that they can develop serious arc
faults
that won't be caught by a normal breaker.

A am not sure the AFCI is detecting series faults reliably yet. They
had a hard enough finding intermittent shorting faults.
I think we are on AFCI version 4.0 now and there are still plenty of
the 1.0 versions out there.
It was a product that was rushed into the code and sold to the
customer at the point of a government gun, long before they were
perfected. The latest AFCI might find a loose connection at a device
termination but I wouldn't count on it

The first bunch of GFCI's I bought back in the 80's (I think) were pretty
squirrely. The second batch of two I bought just a little later to replace
them have been running fine ever since. I think the originals were Slater's
and the replacements were Levitons.

I just read the section about arc faults at

http://www.interfire.org/features/el...ing_faults.asp

and it explained something that confused me because I did not know there
were two, perhaps three kind of arc faults. I did not know the series arc
decreases the current flow in the circuit so that a non AFCI breaker cannot
respond to the fault. It listed the primary causes of arcs as
carbonization of insulation (arc tracking), externally induced ionization
of air and short circuits. Gawd, lots of dangers out there I never even
knew existed! I know this is probably all old news to you, but I find the
various tests they perform to try to get electrical faults to ignite
fascinating. I can see why they were anxious to field a safety device that
at least tries to detect arc faults. The author claims it's one of the few
ways to cause actual ignition:

(1) arcing
(2) excessive ohmic heating, without arcing
(3) external heating.

The reason I have heard about limiting the stabbers to 14ga wire has
more to do with the forces involved in stuffing the device back in the
box. You end up bending the wire and deforming the contact.

That makes sense. I can't count the times I've seen outlets stuffed tighter
than the houses they show on "Hoarders." But wouldn't that bent contact
likely become a source of an arc fault since it's probably not able to carry
as great a current load as an undamaged switch?

I have never been a fan but as long as they are still listed, I have
to hold my nose and approve them.

From the research at the site above, they may not be listed forever. They
seem to be implicated in more than their fair share of home electrical
fires. Are outlets that don't use spring clips (just push it in) but
hold-down screws (push it in and screw down) both considered back stabs?
(That sounds obscene)

Even with the built-in safety
margin you described, a breaker that's too big for the circuit it's
protecting is a step up the ladder of bad outcomes. (-: It can allow
another fault downstream (like a bad back-stab or a nicked connecting
wire)
to become much more likely to cause a problem.

I am certainly not advising that you should violate 240.4(D) the 14g =
15a rule.

If your experience is anything like mine I am sure you've seen your share
of
wire nicked by strippers that reduce the effective gauge of the wire
which
can cause that section of the wire to heat up tremendously. I've seen
serious problems occur with badly twisted wire-nut connections,
back-stabs
have cut into the wire and others.

Bad workmanship can defeat the safety given by any code rule. ;-)

When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for? I mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by non-professionals?

--
Bobby G.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message newsv6dnf4N-
On 1/16/2012 12:33 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:37:26 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

I agree if you put a 20a continuous load on a 14 gauge wire it will
get warmer than it should but it really should not cause a fire.
The one you see in older houses, with fuses, that is really troubling
is the 30a fuse on that 14 gauge wire.

or NO fuse. the very first rental we took on had the standard MAIN
RANGE plus 4 fuse panel. No less than 4 added circuits were hooked to
the hot side of the buss. I turned the MR+4 into a disconnect and put a
nice 100 A panel next to it and started over.

It makes you wonder what the world would be like without an National
Electrical Code, considering all the tings that happen already with it in
place.

--
Bobby G.

On Jan 16, 8:13*am, "Robert Green" wrote:


Derby Dad had it right in the first post. *Cutting or disconnecting all the
panel wires without noting what breakers the wires were connected to is
wrong, wrong, wrong. *Unless all the breakers are the same value, there's
too much potential to destroy clues relating to what might be special cases.

--
Bobby G.

Sorry, but again, not when every circuit except for the dedicated
240 volt appliances were double tapped to the breakers, trying to
"decode" what went where when the old panel was packed full
of wiring running 25 something circuits off of only 16 breakers...

Totally not worth the time to figure that out -- since the proper
replacement of one circuit per breaker when the new panel goes
in it is a lot easier to figure out what is on the new circuits by
powering them up one at a time...

The old panel wasn't marked but for two or three of the circuits...

It is very nice that everyone here seems to think that tracing
every circuit and examining what every connection on it looks
like is included in a panel swap and service upgrade but it is
not... You will never know what the wiring is like in an existing
home looks like without opening every wall or pulling brand new
wires to every outlet box, switch box and light fixture and
abandoning the old wiring...

You can have a brand new panel with new home runs of brand
new wiring but in an old house you will have no clue what is
downstream, what the connections are and even where they
are located... Too often when an older home is gutted very
old knob and tube wiring is found with improper connections
tapped into it and junction boxes plastered over...

~~ Evan

"Evan" wrote in message
news:80c7a3a0-2073-495d-8f33-

stuff snipped

It is very nice that everyone here seems to think that tracing
every circuit and examining what every connection on it looks
like is included in a panel swap and service upgrade but it is
not... You will never know what the wiring is like in an existing
home looks like without opening every wall or pulling brand new
wires to every outlet box, switch box and light fixture and
abandoning the old wiring...

I don't think anyone here was advocating tracing every wire and circuit.
They were mostly saying it's probably worth it to at least label what wire
went to which breakers, especially if there's more than one size of breaker
involved. Not doing so saves five minutes and loses information that could
actually save time and headache when putting in the new panel for some of
the very good reasons people have noted.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:

The one in the fixer-upper I bought was written in light pencil that
half-smudged away and it also had a forged inspection sticker. While
my detailed circuit box directory might help the next guy, it's been
most useful to me when diagnosing X-10 problems. It's nice to know
exactly what outlets/devices you are powering down when looking for
RFI emitters or signal suckers. Fortunately, I don't do much of that
kind of detective work since I installed XTB amplifier/repeaters.

Inspection sticker?

God, how awful.

On 1/16/2012 5:19 PM, Mikepier wrote:
Changing the topic a little, but on that episode why did they use 2-8
foot ground rods by the meter outside? I thought only 1 ground rod was
sufficient.

You can use one rod if the resistance to earth is 25 ohms or less.
Meters are expensive and it is easier to use 2 rods. There is no
resistance required for 2 rods.

Rods are a crappy earthing electrode. For most new construction a
"concrete encased electrode" is required.

--
bud--

On 1/16/2012 9:47 PM, Robert Green wrote:

Are outlets that don't use spring clips (just push it in) but
hold-down screws (push it in and screw down) both considered back stabs?

No.

"bud--" wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 9:47 PM, Robert Green wrote:

Are outlets that don't use spring clips (just push it in) but
hold-down screws (push it in and screw down) both considered back stabs?

No.

Are the screw down type equal in reliability to the curved wire end under
the screw type? They seem to be the best of both worlds - screw-down
reliability and (usually) a broad contact area (at least the kind I've seen
with the clamping plate).

Thanks for your input!

--
Bobby G.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:33:08 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
...
On 1/16/2012 9:47 PM, Robert Green wrote:

Are outlets that don't use spring clips (just push it in) but
hold-down screws (push it in and screw down) both considered back stabs?

No.

Are the screw down type equal in reliability to the curved wire end under
the screw type? They seem to be the best of both worlds - screw-down
reliability and (usually) a broad contact area (at least the kind I've seen
with the clamping plate).

Thanks for your input!
Equal or better.

On Jan 16, 3:45*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0500, "Robert Green"





wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

I didn't see the episode. Electricians have not been my favorite
mechanics on TOH in general (but better than Trethewey doing electrical
work).

(-:

It is not a problem if a circuit with #14 wire, but #12 at the panel, is
connected to a 15A circuit breaker. Occasionally #12 or #10 may be used
for voltage drop with smaller wire downstream. In a rewire a #14 ckt
might have #12 connecton to the panel. Would seem like a minimal check
would be to feel if the wire size matched the breaker, and if the
breaker was smaller than the wire use the smaller breaker in the new
panel.

It seemed to me that he was "throwing away" potentially valuable information
by not matching the wire to its original breaker.

There are also anomalies, like you can legitimately have perhaps a 40A
breaker on a #10 wire for an air conditioning compressor.

If enforced, the NEC requires meaningful labeling of circuits (408.4-A).
("Lights and receptacles" is not meaningful.) The original panel may
have had some of this information (or maybe not).

I've got a very detailed description of the loads (and even outlets) that
each circuit powers on my circuit panel door. *I update it every time I make
a change to the panel. *I created it by checking each circuit out
individually to see what did and didn't work after I flipped the breakers.
I figure it's the least I can do for the next guy to own the house.

Most panel directories are so superficial that they are not that
useful. When I replaced my panel, I didn't bother to label anything. I
wanted a decent panel directory when I was done and I took the time
(half a day) to map every circuit by hooking them up one at a time.

As for the 15 vs 20a choice. 99% of the time, if this is not serving
the kitchen or the bath and laundry before the 90s you should default
to a 15a breaker unless you really know what is down stream. Most
builders used 14ga for virtually all of the branch circuits in a home.
If it is much older than the late 60s, the kitchen might even be 14ga.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you'd be impressed with my directory.

I created an Excel spreadsheet that not only details what each breaker
controls, but also, where appropriate, what it *doesn't* control.

As a simple example, I have a circuit for the garage lights &
receptacles. In the garage I also have a single receptacle for the
freezer, on it's own circuit.

Breaker 16 is labeled as "Garage, except as noted by Breaker 17."

Breaker 17 is labeled as "Single garage outlet, south wall, for
freezer."

Since it's an older house that only had a few circuits when I moved
in, the breaker for the original first floor circuit now reads
something like:

"First Floor except as noted by Breakers 5, 7, 12, 14, 22, 27, and 29.
2nd floor landing light but not 1st floor landing light."

Each of those breakers control circuits that have since been added to
the first floor or split off from the original one. They are labeled
in as much detail as required to make it clear what they do and do not
control.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:04 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for? I
mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by non-professionals?

I look at box fill, the grounding connection, the way the binding
screws are made up and if everything is connected to the right
terminal. It is one of those things that you know when you see it.

I am really looking at workmanship first. If this was done by someone
who is doing a good job, they usually do a good job everywhere. You
just look at a good representitive sample. The boss does not give you
time to open every box. That only happens when you see bad workmanship
or when you catch someone telling you a lie.

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? (-:

--
Bobby G.

On Jan 17, 3:16*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:04 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped







When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for? I
mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by non-professionals?

I look at box fill, the grounding connection, the way the binding
screws are made up and if everything is connected to the right
terminal. It is one of those things that you know when you see it.

I am really looking at workmanship first. If this was done by someone
who is doing a good job, they usually do a good job everywhere. You
just look at a good representitive sample. The boss does not give you
time to open every box. That only happens when you see bad workmanship
or when you catch someone telling you a lie.

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? *Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? *(-:

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Box fill is the maximum number of conductors permitted
for a given box size. In other words, you aren't allowed
to put 5lbs of stuff into a 2lb bag.

On Jan 17, 3:41*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 17, 3:16*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:





wrote in message

.. .

On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:04 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for? I
mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by non-professionals?

I look at box fill, the grounding connection, the way the binding
screws are made up and if everything is connected to the right
terminal. It is one of those things that you know when you see it.

I am really looking at workmanship first. If this was done by someone
who is doing a good job, they usually do a good job everywhere. You
just look at a good representitive sample. The boss does not give you
time to open every box. That only happens when you see bad workmanship
or when you catch someone telling you a lie.

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? *Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? *(-:

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Box fill is the maximum number of conductors permitted
for a given box size. * In other words, you aren't allowed
to put 5lbs of stuff into a 2lb bag.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's why you put a junction box right outside the panel, combine 4
circuits, and then run one wire to a single breaker in the panel. No
concerns about exceeding the box fill specs. ;-)

Please, please note the smiley!

On 1/17/2012 2:16 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
....

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? (-:
....

No; he's talking about the number of conductors in a given size of
outlet box. There's a given quota of number vs volume (cu in) in a box
in the Code--that's "fill".

It's not that large and almost certainly a shallow outlet box w/ the
in/out feed/continuation to next in the chain if one chooses that box to
add another branch to, that extra set of wires will push the box over
the limit. (While not kosher, it's also probably the place I knowingly
push the most, too... )

--

wrote in message
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 11:33:08 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Are the screw down type equal in reliability to the curved wire end under
the screw type? They seem to be the best of both worlds - screw-down
reliability and (usually) a broad contact area (at least the kind I've
seen
with the clamping plate).

Thanks for your input!

Equal or better.

Good to know. I much prefer the hole and clamp method because it eliminates
the need to make the "hook" for the standard screw type outlet. I've seen
some electricians just make a U-shaped hook end and just screw that down and
others taking needle-nosed pliers to "close" the U. Any preferences on
which way is better and why?

FWIW, I try to close the U just because it's less likely that the wire end
will "walk" out from under the screw when it's being tightened down

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:b0ccccc2-dc2f-40d9-8fd5-
stuff snipped

I think you'd be impressed with my directory. I created an Excel
spreadsheet that not only details what each breaker controls, but also,
where appropriate, what it *doesn't* control.

I would think that adds a layer of complexity that's not necessary.

As a simple example, I have a circuit for the garage lights &
receptacles. In the garage I also have a single receptacle for the
freezer, on it's own circuit.

Breaker 16 is labeled as "Garage, except as noted by Breaker 17."

OK - I see the point, but I just assume that there are different circuits in
each room because I've tried to make sure each room is fed by two different
breakers so not all lights will go out at once if a breaker trips. My panel
directory would read (in diminishing type sizes)

Breaker 12 Garage
Overhead Lights and Outlets 12a thru c
12a-wallswitch recpt combo w/GFCI,
12b-east wall
12c-north wall

Easy to add on to, groups outlets with breakers (I label the outlets with
little vinyl stick-on numbers) and gives me all the details I need. On my
Homevision X-10 module directory, I can make note of the outlet number and
get pretty good precision about where each module is and what it's connected
to. When switching power supplies became standard, X-10 became very dicey
because of the RFI and the signal attenuators aks suckers.

Garage
Refrig. dedicated outlet 15
15-West Wall

(If I decided to daisy chain an outlet to that circuit, it would become 15a
and the downstream one 15b. - Part of the nomenclature use is to try to keep
everything fitting on the page and still legible with a flashlight) My
house has few enough outlets and fixtures that they can't be named
individually on the panel door. The usual stuff (breaker number, function,
current rating) is in 14pt bold, the detail in much smaller type. At at
glance it looks like a standard directory.

Back in the day, to troubleshoot X-10 issues, you had to have an obscene
amount of information about each outlet when you were at the panel with an
X-10 meter, watching to see what happened to the signal as various circuits
were disabled. After a while I installed a phase coupler, and then a
repeater (what a disaster) and finally the XTB repeater, coupler and amp and
now I don't have to play Russian roulette with the breaker switches.

Breaker 17 is labeled as "Single garage outlet, south wall, for
freezer."

That's way more than my original panel that said things like bedroom (there
are two) and lights (there were many). (-;

Since it's an older house that only had a few circuits when I moved
in, the breaker for the original first floor circuit now reads
something like:

"First Floor except as noted by Breakers 5, 7, 12, 14, 22, 27, and 29.
2nd floor landing light but not 1st floor landing light."

We clearly think differently. I can understand why you might do it that way
but I wouldn't go as broad as "first floor" - I break up the house into
rooms on the directory. As an old SQL data weenie, I make hierarchical
tables of everthing. (-: If I try very hard, I can probably express your
listing above in set notation or Venn diagrams. It's funny, but as my short
term memory leaks away, the older stuff like "the New Math" seems to be
floating up to the surface. The brain is a very strange thing.

Each of those breakers control circuits that have since been added to the
first floor or split off from the original one. They are labeled in as much
detail as required to make it clear what they do and do not
control.

OK - that last sentence made me realize what makes me uncomfortable (not
really the right word) with your taxonomy. Including what's not controlled
could grow to include the entire rest of the universe!

(just kidding)

--
Bobby G.

You're an engineer?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...

I think you'd be impressed with my directory.

I created an Excel spreadsheet that not only details what each breaker
controls, but also, where appropriate, what it *doesn't* control.

As a simple example, I have a circuit for the garage lights &
receptacles. In the garage I also have a single receptacle for the
freezer, on it's own circuit.

Breaker 16 is labeled as "Garage, except as noted by Breaker 17."

Breaker 17 is labeled as "Single garage outlet, south wall, for
freezer."

Since it's an older house that only had a few circuits when I moved
in, the breaker for the original first floor circuit now reads
something like:

"First Floor except as noted by Breakers 5, 7, 12, 14, 22, 27, and 29.
2nd floor landing light but not 1st floor landing light."

Each of those breakers control circuits that have since been added to
the first floor or split off from the original one. They are labeled
in as much detail as required to make it clear what they do and do not
control.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Robert Green wrote:

The one in the fixer-upper I bought was written in light pencil that
half-smudged away and it also had a forged inspection sticker. While
my detailed circuit box directory might help the next guy, it's been
most useful to me when diagnosing X-10 problems. It's nice to know
exactly what outlets/devices you are powering down when looking for
RFI emitters or signal suckers. Fortunately, I don't do much of that
kind of detective work since I installed XTB amplifier/repeaters.

Inspection sticker?

God, how awful.

Yeah, I knew it was a fraud when I saw your momma's name on the signature
line.

Seriously, what crawled up your output port and decayed? It was merely a
comment that a circuit box can have stickers, labels and cards attached that
have no relation to what's really there in the box. Ironically, you've
forced me to admit that it's not hard to see why a pro would just cut and
gut. Well played, Bubba-san. For now. (-:

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:16:36 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:04 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for?
I
mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by
non-professionals?

I look at box fill, the grounding connection, the way the binding
screws are made up and if everything is connected to the right
terminal. It is one of those things that you know when you see it.

I am really looking at workmanship first. If this was done by someone
who is doing a good job, they usually do a good job everywhere. You
just look at a good representitive sample. The boss does not give you
time to open every box. That only happens when you see bad workmanship
or when you catch someone telling you a lie.

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit
panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? (-:

Panels are always rated for the maximum number of breakers you can
use. CTL panels have been in the code since the Johnson administration
will actually keep you from putting in too many "mini" or piggy back
breakers. Most of the time they will be rated for a full boat of
mini/piggies tho. You will see things like 20/40. That means 20 full
size slots or 40 dual breakers.
The place people get in trouble is when they try to wire a multiwire
(shared neutral) circuit to both sides of a piggy back breaker or a
pair of minis in the same slot. That overloads the neutral.
It should also be noted, there are a couple brands of breakers that
allow doubling up circuits on them. Square D is an example.

If you've got a 100A panel, is there a limit on the total amps of the
breakers you can install? I would expect it to be a mix of breakers that
total up to 100A or some percent of that number under the assumption that
not all circuits would ever be active at full ampacity.

I've used a dual 20A "tandem" breaker that sits on the buss with drawing
from both hot busbars. I
It powers my X-10 coupler/amp. But it never draws more than one amp. Do you
count real loads, average loads, worst possible loads when toting up the
breakers?

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:b0ccccc2-dc2f-40d9-8fd5-
stuff snipped

I think you'd be impressed with my directory. I created an Excel
spreadsheet that not only details what each breaker controls, but
also, where appropriate, what it *doesn't* control.

I would think that adds a layer of complexity that's not necessary.

As a simple example, I have a circuit for the garage lights &
receptacles. In the garage I also have a single receptacle for the
freezer, on it's own circuit.

Breaker 16 is labeled as "Garage, except as noted by Breaker 17."

OK - I see the point, but I just assume that there are different
circuits in each room because I've tried to make sure each room is
fed by two different breakers so not all lights will go out at once
if a breaker trips. My panel directory would read (in diminishing
type sizes)

[skip a bunch of confusing stuff]

I made a floor plan using Google SketchUp. Each outlet, switch, and light
has next to it a number. The number corresponds to a breaker with the
corresponding number.

This map is glued to the inside of the breaker-box door.

Works for me.

On Jan 17, 9:26*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:16:36 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:04 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for?
I
mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by
non-professionals?

I look at box fill, the grounding connection, the way the binding
screws are made up and if everything is connected to the right
terminal. It is one of those things that you know when you see it.

I am really looking at workmanship first. If this was done by someone
who is doing a good job, they usually do a good job everywhere. You
just look at a good representitive sample. The boss does not give you
time to open every box. That only happens when you see bad workmanship
or when you catch someone telling you a lie.

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit
panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? *Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? *(-:

Panels are always rated for the maximum number of breakers you can
use. CTL panels have been in the code since the Johnson administration
will actually keep you from putting in too many "mini" or piggy back
breakers. Most of the time they will be rated for a full boat of
mini/piggies tho. You will see things like 20/40. That means 20 full
size slots or 40 dual breakers.
The place people get in trouble is when they try to wire a multiwire
(shared neutral) circuit to both sides of a piggy back breaker or a
pair of minis in the same slot. That overloads the neutral.
It should also be noted, there are a couple brands of breakers that
allow doubling up circuits on them. Square D is an example.

If you've got a 100A panel, is there a limit on the total amps of the
breakers you can install? *I would expect it to be a mix of breakers that
total up to 100A or some percent of that number under the assumption that
not all circuits would ever be active at full ampacity.

I've used a dual 20A "tandem" breaker that sits on the buss with drawing
from both hot busbars. *I
It powers my X-10 coupler/amp. *But it never draws more than one amp. Do you
count real loads, average loads, worst possible loads when toting up the
breakers?

--
Bobby G.

@Bobby G:

A total of 100 amps load on each line of the service is what a 100 amp
panel
can support... If your circuits are working at capacity then you
would only be
able to have a total of 100 amps being powered off each buss inside
the panel...

You can have MORE breakers in total theoretical load than the main
breaker
is rated for but if you exceed the main breaker rating it will trip if
the actual
loads on all the circuits being powered by the panel exceeds 100 amps
on
either line...

This is why load balancing is important, you want to evenly divide the
load
to both lines in your panel to ensure you don't experience nuisance
tripping
of the main circuit breaker...

~~ Evan

On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:26:11 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:16:36 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 22:47:04 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

When you're inspecting outlets and receptacles, what do you look for?
I
mean
what's the most common screw-up made, especially by
non-professionals?

I look at box fill, the grounding connection, the way the binding
screws are made up and if everything is connected to the right
terminal. It is one of those things that you know when you see it.

I am really looking at workmanship first. If this was done by someone
who is doing a good job, they usually do a good job everywhere. You
just look at a good representitive sample. The boss does not give you
time to open every box. That only happens when you see bad workmanship
or when you catch someone telling you a lie.

If I had to pick the single thing non-pros do wrong, it would be box
fill. They add a circuit to a box that was already close to or at the
limit.

By that do you mean adding dual skinny or extra breakers to a circuit
panel
that exceed the total rating of the box? Isn't that what that big 100A
breaker is for? (-:

Panels are always rated for the maximum number of breakers you can
use. CTL panels have been in the code since the Johnson administration
will actually keep you from putting in too many "mini" or piggy back
breakers. Most of the time they will be rated for a full boat of
mini/piggies tho. You will see things like 20/40. That means 20 full
size slots or 40 dual breakers.
The place people get in trouble is when they try to wire a multiwire
(shared neutral) circuit to both sides of a piggy back breaker or a
pair of minis in the same slot. That overloads the neutral.
It should also be noted, there are a couple brands of breakers that
allow doubling up circuits on them. Square D is an example.

If you've got a 100A panel, is there a limit on the total amps of the
breakers you can install? I would expect it to be a mix of breakers that
total up to 100A or some percent of that number under the assumption that
not all circuits would ever be active at full ampacity.

I've used a dual 20A "tandem" breaker that sits on the buss with drawing
from both hot busbars. I
It powers my X-10 coupler/amp. But it never draws more than one amp. Do you
count real loads, average loads, worst possible loads when toting up the
breakers?

42 circuit 100 amp panels are available. That's 630 amps with all
slots filled with 15 amp breakers.

On Jan 17, 6:57*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

news:b0ccccc2-dc2f-40d9-8fd5-
stuff snipped

I think you'd be impressed with my directory. *I created an Excel
spreadsheet that not only details what each breaker controls, but also,
where appropriate, what it *doesn't* control.

I would think that adds a layer of complexity that's not necessary.

As a simple example, I have a circuit for the garage lights &
receptacles. In the garage I also have a single receptacle for the
freezer, on it's own circuit.

Breaker 16 is labeled as "Garage, except as noted by Breaker 17."

OK - I see the point, but I just assume that there are different circuits in
each room because I've tried to make sure each room is fed by two different
breakers so not all lights will go out at once if a breaker trips. *My panel
directory would read (in diminishing type sizes)

That works, but it appears to assume that you are the only one
concerned with the directory. *You* know that each room has multiple
circuits because your wired the house (or so it seems). I labeled the
panel not just for me, but also for anyone who might need to work
around the panel even when I'm not around.


Breaker 12 Garage
Overhead Lights and Outlets 12a thru c
12a-wallswitch recpt combo w/GFCI,
12b-east wall
12c-north wall

Easy to add on to, groups outlets with breakers (I label the outlets with
little vinyl stick-on numbers) and gives me all the details I need. *On my
Homevision X-10 module directory, I can make note of the outlet number and
get pretty good precision about where each module is and what it's connected
to. *When switching power supplies became standard, X-10 became very dicey
because of the RFI and the signal attenuators aks suckers.

Garage
Refrig. dedicated outlet 15
15-West Wall

(If I decided to daisy chain an outlet to that circuit, it would become 15a
and the downstream one 15b. - Part of the nomenclature use is to try to keep
everything fitting on the page and still legible with a flashlight) *My
house has few enough outlets and fixtures that they can't be named
individually on the panel door. *The usual stuff (breaker number, function,
current rating) is in 14pt bold, the detail in much smaller type. * At at
glance it looks like a standard directory.

Back in the day, to troubleshoot X-10 issues, you had to have an obscene
amount of information about each outlet when you were at the panel with an
X-10 meter, watching to see what happened to the signal as various circuits
were disabled. *After a while I installed a phase coupler, and then a
repeater (what a disaster) and finally the XTB repeater, coupler and amp and
now I don't have to play Russian roulette with the breaker switches.

Breaker 17 is labeled as "Single garage outlet, south wall, for
freezer."

That's way more than my original panel that said things like bedroom (there
are two) and lights (there were many). *(-;

Since it's an older house that only had a few circuits when I moved
in, the breaker for the original first floor circuit now reads
something like:

"First Floor except as noted by Breakers 5, 7, 12, 14, 22, 27, and 29.
2nd floor landing light but not 1st floor landing light."

We clearly think differently. *I can understand why you might do it that way
but I wouldn't go as broad as "first floor" - I break up the house into
rooms on the directory. *As an old SQL data weenie, I make hierarchical
tables of everthing. *(-: *If I try very hard, I can probably express your
listing above in set notation or Venn diagrams. *It's funny, but as my short
term memory leaks away, the older stuff like "the New Math" seems to be
floating up to the surface. *The brain is a very strange thing.


The reason I have a breaker that says "First Floor, except..." is
because there is one circuit that spans all rooms on the first floor.
It is one of the few original circuits in the house and happens to
also be part of an Edison circuit that includes part of the basement.
Instead of trying to split up the Edison circuit, I made sure that any
new outlets added to the 1st floor and basement were placed on new
circuits. I don't necessarily like the fact that these 2 circuits span
most of 2 floors, but I'm not into a complete rewiring.


Each of those breakers control circuits that have since been added to the
first floor or split off from the original one. They are labeled in as much
detail as required to make it clear what they do and do not
control.

OK - that last sentence made me realize what makes me uncomfortable (not
really the right word) with your taxonomy. *Including what's not controlled
could grow to include the entire rest of the universe!

(just kidding)

--
Bobby G.

"Evan" wrote in message
news:0b0d28f2-6055-4cd9-a353-
On Jan 17, 9:26 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
wrote in message

stuff snipped

If you've got a 100A panel, is there a limit on the total amps of the
breakers you can install? I would expect it to be a mix of breakers that
total up to 100A or some percent of that number under the assumption that
not all circuits would ever be active at full ampacity.

A total of 100 amps load on each line of the service is what a 100 amp
panel can support... If your circuits are working at capacity then you
would only be able to have a total of 100 amps being powered off each buss
inside
the panel...

I added about 5 20A circuits to my panel with "dual skinny" breakers which
brings the panel to the maximum it's rated for (100A) but they are never
used simultaneously and they, in fact, replace the older 15A circuits still
wired to the kitchen. I've tracked the maximum usage via the meter and the
house never draws much more than 60A, even with all the big loads going at
once. The question is - will it pass inspection or does the inpector have a
cutoff-point where he won't approve a panel whose individual breakers (face
value, not load) to some percent of the total rating of the panel?

You can have MORE breakers in total theoretical load than the main
breaker is rated for but if you exceed the main breaker rating it will trip
if
the actual loads on all the circuits being powered by the panel exceeds 100
amps
on either line...

That makes sense - what I am trying to determine is whether there's a point
at which an inspector will say "that's too many 20A breakers for this panel"
even *if* they are all powering very small loads.

This is why load balancing is important, you want to evenly divide the
load to both lines in your panel to ensure you don't experience nuisance
tripping of the main circuit breaker...

Way back when we had to rewire a number of PC's to run off dedicated
circuits because they fluttered when the main ventilation blower kicked off.
The electrician said it was because the load wasn't balanced.

--
Bobby G.


~~ Evan

On Jan 19, 12:18*pm, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"Evan" wrote in message

news:0b0d28f2-6055-4cd9-a353-
On Jan 17, 9:26 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

wrote in message

stuff snipped

If you've got a 100A panel, is there a limit on the total amps of the
breakers you can install? I would expect it to be a mix of breakers that
total up to 100A or some percent of that number under the assumption that
not all circuits would ever be active at full ampacity.

A total of 100 amps load on each line of the service is what a 100 amp
panel can support... *If your circuits are working at capacity then you
would only be able to have a total of 100 amps being powered off each buss
inside
the panel...

I added about 5 20A circuits to my panel with "dual skinny" breakers which
brings the panel to the maximum it's rated for (100A) but they are never
used simultaneously and they, in fact, replace the older 15A circuits still
wired to the kitchen. *I've tracked the maximum usage via the meter and the
house never draws much more than 60A, even with all the big loads going at
once. *The question is - will it pass inspection or does the inpector have a
cutoff-point where he won't approve a panel whose individual breakers (face
value, not load) to some percent of the total rating of the panel?

You can have MORE breakers in total theoretical load than the main
breaker is rated for but if you exceed the main breaker rating it will trip
if
the actual loads on all the circuits being powered by the panel exceeds 100
amps
on either line...

That makes sense - what I am trying to determine is whether there's a point
at which an inspector will say "that's too many 20A breakers for this panel"
even *if* they are all powering very small loads.

This is why load balancing is important, you want to evenly divide the
load to both lines in your panel to ensure you don't experience nuisance
tripping of the main circuit breaker...

Way back when we had to rewire a number of PC's to run off dedicated
circuits because they fluttered when the main ventilation blower kicked off.
The electrician said it was because the load wasn't balanced.

--
Bobby G.

~~ Evan

Well in certain commercial situations load balancing is VERY
important,
you can throw all kids of things out of whack with unbalanced loads...

They make a "super neutral" cable which is used with a 3-pole breaker
where there are 3 current carrying conductors of #12 paired up with a
#8 neutral conductor... It is used in making up power for cubicle
systems...
It is like a 2-pole "Edison" circuit on steroids...

~~ Evan

On Jan 19, 7:27*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Evan" wrote in message

news:cd1ea5f4-99f4-4727-93a9-

stuff snipped

They make a "super neutral" cable which is used with a 3-pole breaker
where there are 3 current carrying conductors of #12 paired up with a
#8 neutral conductor... *It is used in making up power for cubicle
systems... It is like a 2-pole "Edison" circuit on steroids...

That's interesting. *I was told that on two-wire 240VAC circuits, the
neutral could always be one gauge under the size of the other two
conductors. *Does adding a third wire change the dynamics that much?

--
Bobby G.

Yes, harmonics on the line from electronic equipment can generate
non-linear loads which are very tricky to balance...

There are two types of these cables, neutral per phase and over-sized
neutral... When you get into type MC cable there are a lot of
interesting
purpose driven varieties of cable, like heavy gauge feeder cable used
for supplying main power to breaker panels, as well as "home run"
cable which have as many as 12 #12 conductors to allow for grouping
multiple home runs in one cable as opposed to each circuit having
its own cable...

~~ Evan

On 1/15/2012 11:13 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On this week's episode of Ask This Old House, an electrician was
replacing the service wire and panel in a house. There were code
problems within the panel (broken breakers, doubled up circuits, etc.)
There were at least 3 generations of wiring at the panel: BX cable,
cloth cover Romex and modern Romex. There was a rat's nest of wiring
in and around the panel.

I finally saw the AskTOH episode.
In the limited time I saw it I thought the wiring looked pretty normal.


He noted that he would normally mark all the wires before removing
them but since the existing labeling was wrong, he chose to simply cut
all of the wires and "figure it out afterwards".

Almost nothing was labeled.


As he was connecting the wires to the new breakers he used this simple
method to determine which wires to connect to which breakers:

"There are 3 sizes of wires. The smaller wires go to the 15A breakers,
the mid-size wires go to the 20A breakers and the largest wires go to
the 30A breaker."

Doesn't this seem to be an oversimplified, possibly dangerous, method?

As I wrote previously, I don't think simply using wire size is a good
idea. The original panel would give clues whether #12 should be on a 15A
breaker, and some 240V circuits may have a breaker larger than the wire
size.


Since it was obvious that whoever came before him violated codes by
doubling up breakers and who knows what else, isn't it dangerous to
assume that the correct wire sizes were used as the mess grew over the
years?

The violation the electrician cited was 2 wires on a breaker. It is not
a violation when the breakers are listed for 2 wires. The breakers were
SquareD, and they are listed for 2 wires on 15/20/30A breakers. It was
not a code violation. As with all the other electricians on TOH, not my
favorite tradesman.

One of the stated reasons to go from 100 to 200A was no room for
expansion. It may (or may not) have been possible to add tandem
breakers. It certainly was possible to add an adjacent subpanel.

The owner talked about expanding. Would be interesting what the service
calculation is after the expansion (whether it is near or over 100A).

One of the things the electrician did was put an expansion fitting in
the PVC riser above the meter can. One of the dumber ideas I have seen.

--
bud--

On Feb 3, 10:39*am, bud-- wrote:
On 1/15/2012 11:13 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On this week's episode of Ask This Old House, an electrician was
replacing the service wire and panel in a house. There were code
problems within the panel (broken breakers, doubled up circuits, etc.)
There were at least 3 generations of wiring at the panel: BX cable,
cloth cover Romex and modern Romex. There was a rat's nest of wiring
in and around the panel.

I finally saw the AskTOH episode.
In the limited time I saw it I thought the wiring looked pretty normal.



He noted that he would normally mark all the wires before removing
them but since the existing labeling was wrong, he chose to simply cut
all of the wires and "figure it out afterwards".

Almost nothing was labeled.



As he was connecting the wires to the new breakers he used this simple
method to determine which wires to connect to which breakers:

"There are 3 sizes of wires. The smaller wires go to the 15A breakers,
the mid-size wires go to the 20A breakers and the largest wires go to
the 30A breaker."

Doesn't this seem to be an oversimplified, possibly dangerous, method?

As I wrote previously, I don't think simply using wire size is a good
idea. The original panel would give clues whether #12 should be on a 15A
breaker, and some 240V circuits may have a breaker larger than the wire
size.



Since it was obvious that whoever came before him violated codes by
doubling up breakers and who knows what else, isn't it dangerous to
assume that the correct wire sizes were used as the mess grew over the
years?

The violation the electrician cited was 2 wires on a breaker. It is not
a violation when the breakers are listed for 2 wires. The breakers were
SquareD, and they are listed for 2 wires on 15/20/30A breakers. It was
not a code violation. As with all the other electricians on TOH, not my
favorite tradesman.

One of the stated reasons to go from 100 to 200A was no room for
expansion. It may (or may not) have been possible to add tandem
breakers. It certainly was possible to add an adjacent subpanel.

The owner talked about expanding. Would be interesting what the service
calculation is after the expansion (whether it is near or over 100A).

One of the things the electrician did was put an expansion fitting in
the PVC riser above the meter can. One of the dumber ideas I have seen.

--
bud--

Why was the expansion fitting a dumb idea?

His explanation *sounded* logical, but electrical risers are not my
forte, so what made it a dumb idea?

Thanks.

On Feb 3, 1:14*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Feb 3, 10:39*am, bud-- wrote:

One of the things the electrician did was put an expansion fitting in
the PVC riser above the meter can. One of the dumber ideas I have seen.

--
bud--

Why was the expansion fitting a dumb idea?

His explanation *sounded* logical, but electrical risers are not my
forte, so what made it a dumb idea?


Take a different example. A cement block building has a pull box on
the outside back wall. A PVC conduit comes out the side and runs
horizontally into the side of another pull box. The conduit is
constrained at both ends and is relatively long. The conduit can
expand and contract significantly more than the cement block wall,
which can cause problems. An expansion fitting is a good idea.

There are 2 factors, constrained at both ends and relatively long
length. The service riser is somewhere near 10 ft. More important, it
is not constrained at the top. The electrician made a point that the
pipe straps allowed expansion. I don't see a problem. And did the
electrician install the expansion fitting so it was not bottomed-out?

================
Your post, and a lot of other old ones, just showed up at the news
source my isp uses. It has not showed up yet at aioe. Must be a space-
time warp.

--
bud--