Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant. Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations. The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500, RBM
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.

--
croy

On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip. If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

I have no idea what I'm doing. Take this as possible areas
for research.

You used a lot of terms that could be easily interpreted different ways.

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.
Are you sure you have a GFCI breaker? IRRC new construction
requires arc-fault breakers which are much more sensitive.
I've seen a bunch of complaints about false trips.

Do you have any OTHER GFCI breakers in the system?
That's diagnostically relevant when looking for imbalance.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.
Any junction boxes in the attic or ceiling? ceiling fan boxes?
vent fans? anything in the circuit...

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.
That's a "loaded word". Did you UNPLUG EVERYTHING, including those
pesky ceiling fans, vents, in-the-wall intercom, doorbell transformer
etc?? Turned off equals unloaded only
if the device ain't broke.

Did you check every outlet to verify that hot and neutral have not
been reversed. There may be issues with leakage current in some
electronic devices if hot and neutral get reversed.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?
probably not.
But rats chewing on the cable might.
Or shifting ground stressing a wire and causing an "almost short" to a
wire brad
to become an intermittent short. I had this happen with a phone wire.


Other ideas?

A GFCI works by detecting imbalance between the current in the hot
and neutral wires. Anything that gets to ground elsewhere, like
in the third-wire ground or through you to the faucet is an imbalance
and trips the breaker.
Faults in the neutral or ground system can cause imbalances.

I'd call up the power company customer service. You have to get past
the robot in the call center to the engineering department.
Tell them your problem and ask if it could be a problem in the neutral
going out to the power company. See what they say.
Ask what it would cost you for them to come out and check.
I'll bet it's free.

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie

On 1/8/2012 12:12 PM, RBM wrote:
On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip.

Good point.

If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:





Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..

Dear JIMMIE,
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...current_device
As I understand, a GFCI compares the hot and neutral currents.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip.

Jimmie

I've seen extension cords with cracked and leaking insullation.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...

Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie

On 1/8/2012 3:30 PM, RosemontCrest wrote:
On 1/8/2012 12:12 PM, RBM wrote:
On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip.

Good point.

If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

It could be done that way, depending upon the path of the wiring. At
about $8 an outlet, I prefer to use GF receptacles at each required
location, so when there is a ground fault issue, there is no mystery as
to where it occurred.

On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:





On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True, thats an easy way to measure leakage current on the ground wire.
If there is an imbalace betewwen the two leads the difference is on
the ground. But damn thats a lot to type and has been explained here
about a thousand times. Kind of like you cant really meaasure
resistance but you can measure the voltage drop across something if
you apply a constant current or measure the current if you apply aa
constant voltage but damn it all its still called an ohm meter.

Jimmie


Jimmie

croy wrote in
:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

There are no motors on it right? I hear they can raise heck with GFCIs'.


One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:12:15 -0500, RBM
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit?

Nope.

If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip. If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen
All three outlet locations are just above the kitchen
counter.

--
croy

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:30:31 -0800, RosemontCrest
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 12:12 PM, RBM wrote:
On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip.

Good point.

If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

Doesn't an outlet-style GFCI cover the whole circuit?

--
croy

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:00:08 -0500, RBM
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 3:30 PM, RosemontCrest wrote:
On 1/8/2012 12:12 PM, RBM wrote:
On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip.

Good point.

If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

It could be done that way, depending upon the path of the wiring. At
about $8 an outlet, I prefer to use GF receptacles at each required
location, so when there is a ground fault issue, there is no mystery as
to where it occurred.

Hmmm. I thought a GFCI outlet covered the whole circuit for
ground faults--no?

--
croy

On 1/8/2012 6:07 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:12:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit?

Nope.

If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip. If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen
All three outlet locations are just above the kitchen
counter.


You extended an existing 20 amp circuit. Are you saying that the only
things on the entire circuit are 3 kitchen counter outlets?

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:21:45 -0800, mike
wrote:

I have no idea what I'm doing. Take this as possible areas
for research.

You used a lot of terms that could be easily interpreted different ways.

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

Are you sure you have a GFCI breaker? IRRC new construction
requires arc-fault breakers which are much more sensitive.
I've seen a bunch of complaints about false trips.

This is a GF breaker (GE brand, THQL1120GFP).

Do you have any OTHER GFCI breakers in the system?

Nope. I should, but I don't. Um, now that I think about
it, there is a sub-panel in the garage that has three GFCI
breakers in it. How would that effect this one, and what
would I do about it?

That's diagnostically relevant when looking for imbalance.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.
Any junction boxes in the attic or ceiling? ceiling fan boxes?
vent fans? anything in the circuit...

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

That's a "loaded word". Did you UNPLUG EVERYTHING, including those
pesky ceiling fans, vents, in-the-wall intercom, doorbell transformer
etc?? Turned off equals unloaded only
if the device ain't broke.

Nothing plugged in at all.

Did you check every outlet to verify that hot and neutral have not
been reversed. There may be issues with leakage current in some
electronic devices if hot and neutral get reversed.

Hmmm. No, I didn't think to check that, but... why would it
work ok for a year and a half?

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?
probably not.
But rats chewing on the cable might.

Rats! ;-) Looks like some time in the attic is in order.

Or shifting ground stressing a wire and causing an "almost short" to a
wire brad
to become an intermittent short. I had this happen with a phone wire.

Another vote for the attic.

Other ideas?

A GFCI works by detecting imbalance between the current in the hot
and neutral wires. Anything that gets to ground elsewhere, like
in the third-wire ground or through you to the faucet is an imbalance
and trips the breaker.
Faults in the neutral or ground system can cause imbalances.

I'd call up the power company customer service. You have to get past
the robot in the call center to the engineering department.
Tell them your problem and ask if it could be a problem in the neutral
going out to the power company. See what they say.
Ask what it would cost you for them to come out and check.
I'll bet it's free.

Thanks, I'll keep that idea handy.

--
croy

On 1/8/2012 6:10 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 17:00:08 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 3:30 PM, RosemontCrest wrote:
On 1/8/2012 12:12 PM, RBM wrote:
On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip.

Good point.

If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

It could be done that way, depending upon the path of the wiring. At
about $8 an outlet, I prefer to use GF receptacles at each required
location, so when there is a ground fault issue, there is no mystery as
to where it occurred.

Hmmm. I thought a GFCI outlet covered the whole circuit for
ground faults--no?

If the outlets are daisy-chained, you can install a GFCI receptacle at
the first location in the chain and connect the wires going to the
downstream receptacles to the "load" terminals of the ground fault. If
it's done this way you, can use standard receptacles in the downstream
locations

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 18:21:53 -0500, RBM
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 6:07 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:12:15 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit?

Nope.

If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip. If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen
All three outlet locations are just above the kitchen
counter.


You extended an existing 20 amp circuit. Are you saying that the only
things on the entire circuit are 3 kitchen counter outlets?

Yup. There were two before, one for the fridge and stove,
and one for countertop use. Now the fridge and stove are on
their own brand new circuit, and the old circuit is powering
three double-duplex above-counter outlets.

--
croy

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 12:30:09 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE
wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Interesting, for sure.

If I count all the ups and downs and horizontals, there's
about 60 to 65' in the run to the furthest outlets.

Hmmm.

--
croy

On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 22:51:28 GMT, Red Green
wrote:

croy wrote in
:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

There are no motors on it right? I hear they can raise heck with GFCIs'.

Nope. Nothing plugged in, nothing built-in connected.

--
croy

There are no motors on it right? I hear they can raise heck with GFCIs'.

Nope. Nothing plugged in, nothing built-in connected.

--
croy

If there is nothing plugged into any of the outlets and now they trip and
before they didn't, I would check:

1) insects or moisture in one of the boxes or cables?

2) is there a high power radio transmitter nearby, ham operator etc?

3) Does it trip at the same time that the fridge compressor or furnace or
other large load kicks on/off?

Any change to one of the nearby circuits, new TV or ????

And please verify you are talking about GFI breakers and not arc fault
detecting breakers or some other unusual thing..

Do come back and let us know when you find out the answer...

Mark

croy wrote:

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

Doesn't an outlet-style GFCI cover the whole circuit?

Yes, but when the GFCI outlet pops, you don't know immediately who is the
culprit. Not that that matters much...

croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

If you've got all the outlets on the circuit identified, try removing them
from the equation one by one. After you have them ALL disconnected, and the
GFCI still trips, it's off to the attic!

On 1/8/2012 3:08 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:30:31 -0800, RosemontCrest
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 12:12 PM, RBM wrote:
On 1/8/2012 2:59 PM, croy wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:34:29 -0500,
wrote:

On 1/8/2012 2:14 PM, croy wrote:
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?


I don't know what it means to "revamp" a circuit. It sounds like you
extended an existing circuit, but that's irrelevant.

Correct--extended is a more descriptive term.

Unless required by
Nec, replace the GFCI breaker with a standard breaker. If any of the
outlets in the circuit require ground fault protection, install
receptacles at those locations.

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

The undersized equipment ground on older
Romex won't have any affect of the function of any GFCI device.

Good news.


Is it possible that there is an outdoor outlet connected to this
circuit? If so, I would check it for moisture entry, which is a likely
cause for the circuit to trip.

Good point.

If possible I would replace the breaker
with a standard type, and install gfci receptacles at only the kitchen
counter outlets, which is what Nec currently requires in a kitchen

That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

Doesn't an outlet-style GFCI cover the whole circuit?


Only if it is wired properly. As RBM stated, if the GFCI outlet is
installed in the first "upstream" location of the circuit and the
"downstream" outlets are connected to the "load" terminals of the GFCI
outlet, all outlets on that circuit will be protected.

If you have Romex from the sixties, that may be the entire problem. Old
wire, old insullation. Does the entire circuit need GFCI protection, or just
one socket?

You may be better off either buying and running some new Romex, or put GFCI
outlet where it is totally needed.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"croy" wrote in message
...
Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

Outlet protects itself, and anything "down stream" from the outlet. Anything
from the box to the GFCI outlet isn't protected.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"croy" wrote in message
...


That seems like overkill. Why not simply install a GFCI outlet in the
first "upstream" location and feed the remaining "downstream"
receptacles from the GFCI?

Doesn't an outlet-style GFCI cover the whole circuit?

--
croy

No. Only the GFCI and any outlets down stream from the GFCI.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"croy" wrote in message
news
Hmmm. I thought a GFCI outlet covered the whole circuit for
ground faults--no?

--
croy

If possible. take out the romex from the sixties, and put in new romex. The
old stuff might have cracking insullation.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"croy" wrote in message
...

All the outlets on this circuit are in the kitchen (3
double-duplex).

Check for reversed with:
http://www.harborfreight.com/electri...sis-32907.html
You may have a new problem with the old Romex.

And, what are the odds? Someone else is suggesting you check for bad Romex?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"croy" wrote in message
...

Did you check every outlet to verify that hot and neutral have not
been reversed. There may be issues with leakage current in some
electronic devices if hot and neutral get reversed.

Hmmm. No, I didn't think to check that, but... why would it
work ok for a year and a half?

But rats chewing on the cable might.

Rats! ;-) Looks like some time in the attic is in order.

Or shifting ground stressing a wire and causing an "almost short" to a
wire brad
to become an intermittent short. I had this happen with a phone wire.

Another vote for the attic.

On Jan 8, 5:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:









On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True, thats an easy way to measure leakage current on the ground wire.
If there is an imbalace betewwen the two leads the difference is on
the ground. But damn thats a lot to type and has been explained here
about a thousand times. Kind of like you cant really meaasure
resistance but you can measure the voltage drop across something if
you apply a constant current or measure the current if you apply aa
constant voltage but damn it all its still called an ohm meter.

Jimmie

Jimmie

"If there is an imbalace betewwen the two leads the difference is
on the ground."

Huh?

What if the difference is in the user? Current comes in on the hot,
some of it leaks into the user and therefore there is less on the
neutral. The GFCI will trip and no current has leaked onto the ground
wire - assuming there even *is* a ground wire.

GFCI's can be used, per code, to allow the installation of 3 prong
outlets on ungrounded circuits because the GFCI doesn't care about
leakage to ground, it only cares if there is an imbalance between the
hot and neutral.

While it is certainly possible that the leakage current could be on
the ground, to state that "the GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage
current on the ground
wire" is just flat wrong. It works by detecting the imbalance between
the hot and neutral, regardless of where it leaked to.

On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:





On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit. Sticking yor finger in a socket and grabbing the water
faucet will trip the associated GFCI because the current flowed back
to ground creating a current imbalance in the hot and nuetral legs. It
may or may not have went back via any particular ground wire or other
path.. My mentioning wire was an assumption that had to do with the
OPs problem and my earlier suggestion that the wire may be excessively
long. In that case ground wire is appropriate. Just one possible
solutuion out of many suggest because no one else did. It is equally
correct to expalin the basic operation of a GFCI as detecting ground
current as it is detecting and imbalance in current in the hot and
return.

Jimmie

On Jan 8, 10:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:





On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* *If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit. Sticking yor finger in a socket and grabbing the water
faucet will trip the associated GFCI because the current flowed back
to ground creating a current imbalance in the hot and nuetral legs. It
may or may not have went back via any particular ground wire or other
path.. My mentioning *wire was an assumption that had to do with the
OPs problem and my earlier suggestion that the wire may be excessively
long. In that case ground wire is appropriate. Just one possible
solutuion out of many suggest because no one else did. It is equally
correct to expalin the basic operation of a GFCI as detecting ground
current as it is detecting *and imbalance in current in the hot and
return.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit."

That may be true, but that is not what casues a GFCI to trip.

Your original statement was "The GFCI breaker works by detecting
leakage current on the ground wire" and that is the only point I am
arguing.

Your statement implies that the device is monitoring the current on
the ground wire (how else would it detect the current?) and when it
detects the leakage current it trips.

You may call it semantics, but I call it science. The fact remains
that your statement "The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage
current on the ground wire" is just plain wrong, regardless of how you
try to justify it. I'll even give you some latitude and let you leave
off the word "wire". The fact remains that the GFCI doesn't detect to
leakage current on any type of ground circuit. Period.

It works by detecting the imbalance between the hot and neutral wires.
Regardless of where the leakage current is going to, that leakage
current itself is not "detected" by the GFCI. It is the *imbalance*
between the hot and neutral that is detected.

Compare it to pressure-balancing in a shower valve. The valve itself
will sense the difference in pressure (substitute: current) between
the hot and the cold (substitute: neutral) and adjust itself to
maintain the original balance (substitute: trip).

It doesn't "detect" the cold water flowing through the pipe
(substitute: ground wire) to a toilet or a washer or a sink. All it
knows is that there is an imbalance right at it's point of monitoring
and it compensates for it.

That's how a GFCI works. Look it up.

On Jan 9, 11:18*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 8, 10:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:





On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* *If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit. Sticking yor finger in a socket and grabbing the water
faucet will trip the associated GFCI because the current flowed back
to ground creating a current imbalance in the hot and nuetral legs. It
may or may not have went back via any particular ground wire or other
path.. My mentioning *wire was an assumption that had to do with the
OPs problem and my earlier suggestion that the wire may be excessively
long. In that case ground wire is appropriate. Just one possible
solutuion out of many suggest because no one else did. It is equally
correct to expalin the basic operation of a GFCI as detecting ground
current as it is detecting *and imbalance in current in the hot and
return.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit."

That may be true, but that is not what casues a GFCI to trip.

Your original statement was "The GFCI breaker works by detecting
leakage current on the ground wire" and that is the only point I am
arguing.

Your statement implies that the device is monitoring the current on
the ground wire (how else would it detect the current?) and when it
detects the leakage current it trips.

You may call it semantics, but I call it science. The fact remains
that your statement "The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage
current on the ground wire" is just plain wrong, regardless of how you
try to justify it. I'll even give you some latitude and let you leave
off the word "wire". The fact remains that the GFCI doesn't detect to
leakage current on any type of ground circuit. Period.

It works by detecting the imbalance between the hot and neutral wires.
Regardless of where the leakage current is going to, that leakage
current itself is not "detected" by the GFCI. It is the *imbalance*
between the hot and neutral that is detected.

Compare it to pressure-balancing in a shower valve. The valve itself
will sense the difference in pressure (substitute: current) between
the hot and the cold (substitute: neutral) and adjust itself to
maintain the original balance (substitute: trip).

It doesn't "detect" the cold water flowing through the pipe
(substitute: ground wire) to a toilet or a washer or a sink. All it
knows is that there is an imbalance right at it's point of monitoring
and it compensates for it.

That's how a GFCI works. Look it up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly what I was trying to point out in my earlier response
to Croy a few days ago.

On Jan 9, 2:51*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jan 9, 11:18*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Jan 8, 10:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* *If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit. Sticking yor finger in a socket and grabbing the water
faucet will trip the associated GFCI because the current flowed back
to ground creating a current imbalance in the hot and nuetral legs. It
may or may not have went back via any particular ground wire or other
path.. My mentioning *wire was an assumption that had to do with the
OPs problem and my earlier suggestion that the wire may be excessively
long. In that case ground wire is appropriate. Just one possible
solutuion out of many suggest because no one else did. It is equally
correct to expalin the basic operation of a GFCI as detecting ground
current as it is detecting *and imbalance in current in the hot and
return.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit."

That may be true, but that is not what casues a GFCI to trip.

Your original statement was "The GFCI breaker works by detecting
leakage current on the ground wire" and that is the only point I am
arguing.

Your statement implies that the device is monitoring the current on
the ground wire (how else would it detect the current?) and when it
detects the leakage current it trips.

You may call it semantics, but I call it science. The fact remains
that your statement "The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage
current on the ground wire" is just plain wrong, regardless of how you
try to justify it. I'll even give you some latitude and let you leave
off the word "wire". The fact remains that the GFCI doesn't detect to
leakage current on any type of ground circuit. Period.

It works by detecting the imbalance between the hot and neutral wires.
Regardless of where the leakage current is going to, that leakage
current itself is not "detected" by the GFCI. It is the *imbalance*
between the hot and neutral that is detected.

Compare it to pressure-balancing in a shower valve. The valve itself
will sense the difference in pressure (substitute: current) between
the hot and the cold (substitute: neutral) and adjust itself to
maintain the original balance (substitute: trip).

It doesn't "detect" the cold water flowing through the pipe
(substitute: ground wire) to a toilet or a washer or a sink. All it
knows is that there is an imbalance right at it's point of monitoring
and it compensates for it.

That's how a GFCI works. Look it up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's exactly what I was trying to point out in my earlier response
to Croy a few days ago.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't know if Croy gets it or not, but our friend JIMMIE doesn't
appear to, at least not yet.

On Jan 9, 12:18*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 8, 10:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:





On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* *If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit.
Sticking yor finger in a socket and grabbing the water
faucet will trip the associated GFCI because the current flowed back
to ground creating a current imbalance in the hot and nuetral legs. It
may or may not have went back via any particular ground wire or other
path.. My mentioning *wire was an assumption that had to do with the
OPs problem and my earlier suggestion that the wire may be excessively
long. In that case ground wire is appropriate. Just one possible
solutuion out of many suggest because no one else did. It is equally
correct to expalin the basic operation of a GFCI as detecting ground
current as it is detecting *and imbalance in current in the hot and
return.


That is not true. The second explanation is completely correct and
all that is needed. Here's one to think
about. I connect together two netural wires on a GFI
circuit. What happens? It trips because there is
an imbalance between the hot and neutral currents.
There is no path to ground involved. Or I swap the
neutrals on two differenct circuits. Again the GFI
trips and no ground current is involved.



"If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit."

That may be true, but that is not what casues a GFCI to trip.

Yes, that true, but per above, it's not the only way to
trip one. Originally Jimmie used the term ground wire.
Now he's using ground circuit. I would say that's an
improvement, but still very misleading at best. I
agree with you that few people would hear the term
ground circuit and think that circuit includes them
standing on a wet cement floor. The more natural
association would be to the ground of the circuit
involved.





Your original statement was "The GFCI breaker works by detecting
leakage current on the ground wire" and that is the only point I am
arguing.

Your statement implies that the device is monitoring the current on
the ground wire (how else would it detect the current?) and when it
detects the leakage current it trips.

I agree.


You may call it semantics, but I call it science. The fact remains
that your statement "The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage
current on the ground wire" is just plain wrong, regardless of how you
try to justify it. I'll even give you some latitude and let you leave
off the word "wire". The fact remains that the GFCI doesn't detect to
leakage current on any type of ground circuit. Period.

It works by detecting the imbalance between the hot and neutral wires.
Regardless of where the leakage current is going to, that leakage
current itself is not "detected" by the GFCI. It is the *imbalance*
between the hot and neutral that is detected.

On Jan 10, 11:20*am, "
wrote:
On Jan 9, 12:18*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Jan 8, 10:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 4:45*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Jan 8, 2:14*pm, croy wrote:

Two years ago, I revamped a 20a circuit in my (USA) house. I
added some outlets, and put a GFCI breaker for that circuit
in the service panel.

All was well for a year and a half, then the GFCI breaker
started tripping for no apparent reason. *I assumed that the
breaker had gone bad, so I replaced it. *The new one still
trips, albeit after a longer period of time (old, about
three minutes; new, three to 20 hours).

I've pulled all the outlets and tightened the screws.

Still the breaker trips after some hours, whether the
circuit gets loaded or not.

One thought I've had: *the original romex for the longest
run of this circuit is from that period of time (1960s?)
when the ground wire is smaller gage than the main
conductors. *Could that be causing the problem?

Other ideas?

--
Thanks,
croy

The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage current on the ground
wire. It only needs to detect about 5ma to cause a trip. Witth no
obvious problems they willl still trip just because the wire is too
long. This is caused by capacitive coupling between the hot wire and
the ground. I dis overed this the hard way when I ran an extension
courd from my back porch to my storage shed about 60 ft away. Forgot
and rediscoverd it again when I ran 100ft of extension cord at an RV
park.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It isn't leakage current on the ground wire. *It is unbalance between
the two leads leaving the GFCI toward the load, it doesn't matter what
they are connected to, it is the unbalance between the current flow in
the two leads coming out of the GFCI that trips it..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

* *If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit.

Sticking yor finger in a socket and grabbing the water

faucet will trip the associated GFCI because the current flowed back
to ground creating a current imbalance in the hot and nuetral legs. It
may or may not have went back via any particular ground wire or other
path.. My mentioning *wire was an assumption that had to do with the
OPs problem and my earlier suggestion that the wire may be excessively
long. In that case ground wire is appropriate. Just one possible
solutuion out of many suggest because no one else did. It is equally
correct to expalin the basic operation of a GFCI as detecting ground
current as it is detecting *and imbalance in current in the hot and
return.

That is not true. *The second explanation is completely correct and
all that is needed. * Here's one to think
about. *I connect together two netural wires on a GFI
circuit. *What happens? *It trips because there is
an imbalance between the hot and neutral currents.
There is no path to ground involved. *Or I swap the
neutrals on two differenct circuits. *Again the GFI
trips and no ground current is involved.



"If there is an imbalance that means current IS flowing in the
ground circuit."

That may be true, but that is not what casues a GFCI to trip.

Yes, that true, but per above, it's not the only way to
trip one. *Originally Jimmie used the term ground wire.
Now he's using ground circuit. *I would say that's an
improvement, but still very misleading at best. *I
agree with you that few people would hear the term
ground circuit and think that circuit includes them
standing on a wet cement floor. *The more natural
association would be to the ground of the circuit
involved.

Which I why further down I gave Jimmie the latitude to eliminate the
word "wire".

His assertion that a GFCI monitors something other than the current
flowing in the hot & neutral wires is where I (and apparently you too)
have an issue.

We might also note with interest that we haven't heard from Jimmie in
a while. Perhaps he has chosen to silently acknowledge his error in
understanding the way a GFCI spends it's day.




Your original statement was "The GFCI breaker works by detecting
leakage current on the ground wire" and that is the only point I am
arguing.
Your statement implies that the device is monitoring the current on
the ground wire (how else would it detect the current?) and when it
detects the leakage current it trips.

I agree.





You may call it semantics, but I call it science. The fact remains
that your statement "The GFCI breaker works by detecting leakage
current on the ground wire" is just plain wrong, regardless of how you
try to justify it. I'll even give you some latitude and let you leave
off the word "wire". The fact remains that the GFCI doesn't detect to
leakage current on any type of ground circuit. Period.

It works by detecting the imbalance between the hot and neutral wires.
Regardless of where the leakage current is going to, that leakage
current itself is not "detected" by the GFCI. It is the *imbalance*
between the hot and neutral that is detected.-

On Jan 8, 7:55*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
No. Only the GFCI and any outlets down stream from the GFCI.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"croy" wrote in message

news
Hmmm. *I thought a GFCI outlet covered the whole circuit for
ground faults--no?

--
croy

Depends on how you wire it. If you use the "load" terminals to feed
the downstream receps, then yes. If you connect all wires to the
"line" terminals then only the GFCI recep itself is protected. Don't
even need to pigtail as most GFCI receps use clamp terminals under
which you can put two wires each.

nate

On Jan 10, 3:30*pm, N8N wrote:
On Jan 8, 7:55*pm, "Stormin Mormon"





wrote:
No. Only the GFCI and any outlets down stream from the GFCI.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"croy" wrote in message

news

Hmmm. *I thought a GFCI outlet covered the whole circuit for
ground faults--no?

--
croy

Depends on how you wire it. *If you use the "load" terminals to feed
the downstream receps, then yes. *If you connect all wires to the
"line" terminals then only the GFCI recep itself is protected. *Don't
even need to pigtail as most GFCI receps use clamp terminals under
which you can put two wires each.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You gotta be careful when you reply to a post with a top-posted
response.

When you say "If you use the load terminals to feed the downstream
receps, then yes." it's hard to tell to whom your "Yes" applies. Let
me explain how it looks from where I'm sitting...

Croy's question was "I thought a GFCI outlet covered the whole circuit
for ground faults--no?" Your response, which is under his, could be
taken mean "Yes, the whole circuit is protected."

We know that that may not be true, since only the load side
receptacles are protected, which may not include the "whole circuit".
i.e. put the GFCI as the 3rd receptacle in a 5 receptacle branch and
only 3 receptacles will be protected.

However, if you are replying to Stormin Mormon's comment, whose actual
post you responded to, then your Yes could mean that you agree with
SM, as long as the circuit is wired properly.

Do you see the possible confusion, especially for Croy, who may not
understand the subtle difference between "the whole circuit" and "the
downstream receptacles", which may or may not be the same thing?