When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go to
probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a life
insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family members
attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the beneficiary of
a life insurance policy. They were related to the deceased. Siblings are of
course fighting among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been a
beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

On 10/16/2011 2:52 PM, numan wrote:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go to
probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a life
insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family members
attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the beneficiary of
a life insurance policy. They were related to the deceased. Siblings are of
course fighting among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been a
beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?



I'm no lawyer but answer is apparently, no:

http://wills-probate.lawyers.com/wil...h-Probate.html

On 10/16/2011 1:52 PM, numan wrote:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go to
probate like the will?...

No. The general principle is that direct transfer on death provisions
or named beneficiaries trump the will (those transfers happen on death
and hence are not part of the estate to be subject to probate).

IANAL but have (unfortunately) been through enough settlements recently
to have seen the rules in play.

--

"numan" wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?


Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

On Oct 16, 3:57*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"numan" *wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

As others have stated, assuming there is no fraud then
whoever is the beneficiary receives the life insurance
proceeds directly and it's theirs to keep. Exceptions do
exist, but would have to be something like the deceased
was incompetent and some relative tricked the deceased
into changing the policy, naming them beneficiary or did it without
their knowledge, etc.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:52:27 -0400, "numan" wrote:

When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go to
probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a life
insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family members
attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the beneficiary of
a life insurance policy. They were related to the deceased. Siblings are of
course fighting among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been a
beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?




No probate for insurance policy in Canada - don't know about USA.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Oct 16, 3:57*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"numan" *wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Perhaps he would share it with me, too.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

As others have stated, assuming there is no fraud then
whoever is the beneficiary receives the life insurance
proceeds directly and it's theirs to keep. Exceptions do
exist, but would have to be something like the deceased
was incompetent and some relative tricked the deceased
into changing the policy, naming them beneficiary or did it without
their knowledge, etc.

I know a case like that. Second wife married him when he was 65 or
70. He held elective office until he was 73. He died in his 80's but
not before he got senile. Even though he had a lawyer and a will, she
took him to HER lawyer and got a new will. The will gave almost
everything to her and his daughter got only 4 or 5000 dollars, which
now that you remind me, was an insurance policy. Daughter has a
high-class, low-pay career, almost certainly with no pension. .

And get this, the will said if the wife predeceased him, his money
was to go to HER grown nephew whom he had barely or never met,. not
HIS daughter.

For that reason I thought my friend had a good chance of winning the
case.

I told her to take her 5000 (about 25 years ago) and hire a lawyer, to
ask her father's secretary for decades who his lawyer was and he had a
lot of friends for decades, many lawyers, in high places, one of whom
might have imo even taken the case for free, or for contingency (even
though that isn't normal for such cases) because htey were long time
friends and because these lawyers know they'll be old too someday.
But she didn't do anything.

When she was home, every time they went somewhere they would drive
down a nearby street and he would poiunt to some piece of land and
say," You'll get that when I die". But she didn't.

wrote:

As others have stated, assuming there is no fraud then
whoever is the beneficiary receives the life insurance
proceeds directly and it's theirs to keep. Exceptions do
exist, but would have to be something like the deceased
was incompetent and some relative tricked the deceased
into changing the policy, naming them beneficiary or did it without
their knowledge, etc.


Suicide is another exception. No pay off to anybody.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Oct 16, 1:52 pm, "numan" wrote:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go to
probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a life
insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family members
attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the beneficiary of
a life insurance policy. They were related to the deceased. Siblings are of
course fighting among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been a
beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Andy responds:

You might also post your question on misc.legal.moderated , which
is frequented by attorneys who are regularly asked questions like
this.....

The quick answer is that items which have designated beneficiaries
are not subject to probate....

HOWEVER, those items are subject to estate and government taxes,
as well as claims against the estate .

In other words, if a person names a benefiiary for his/her bank
CD,
and that person, at death, owes money to a finance company, the
finance company has a claim against ANY assets before the estate
can be settled... One cannot hide or shelter assets by simply
designating a beneficiary...

..... but go to misc.legal.moderated for a more complete answer.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

In article , "dadiOH"
wrote:

wrote:

As others have stated, assuming there is no fraud then
whoever is the beneficiary receives the life insurance
proceeds directly and it's theirs to keep. Exceptions do
exist, but would have to be something like the deceased
was incompetent and some relative tricked the deceased
into changing the policy, naming them beneficiary or did it without
their knowledge, etc.


Suicide is another exception. No pay off to anybody.

Insurance policies usually have some sort of restriction where it won't
pay for suicide for a specific amount of time, but after that expires
the policy will be paid.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On Oct 17, 7:48*am, Andy wrote:
On Oct 16, 1:52 pm, "numan" wrote:

When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go to
probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a life
insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family members
attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the beneficiary of
a life insurance policy. They were related to the deceased. Siblings are of
course fighting among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been a
beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Andy responds:

* *You might also post your question on misc.legal.moderated *, which
is frequented by attorneys who are regularly asked questions like
this.....

* * The quick answer is that items which have designated beneficiaries
are not subject to probate....

* * HOWEVER, those items are subject to estate and government taxes,
as well as claims against the estate .

A life insurance policey, which is the question, is NOT
subject to federal income or estate tax. Also, I don't know the
tax rules for every state, but here in NJ it is not subject
to state tax either and I doubt it will be in other states as well.





* * In other words, if a person names a benefiiary for his/her bank
CD,
and that person, at death, owes money to a finance company, the
finance company has a claim against ANY assets before the estate
can be settled... *One cannot hide or shelter assets by simply
designating a beneficiary...

You sure can with a life insurance policy,
which again is the actual question. In your
example, if the person had a life insurance
policy payable to Sarah Doe, any debtors of
the estate have no claim against it and it's
paid directly to her in full.




.... but go to misc.legal.moderated *for a more complete answer.....

* * * * * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas

In ,
numan typed:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy,
does this go to probate like the will? Someone I know was
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were not
related to the person. Family members attempted to sue
the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.
I know someone else who just recently found out they are
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were
related to the deceased. Siblings are of course fighting
among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.
Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading
this been a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and
what was the outcome?

Boy, talk about not knowing where/how to post!!

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 07:43:34 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

wrote:

As others have stated, assuming there is no fraud then
whoever is the beneficiary receives the life insurance
proceeds directly and it's theirs to keep. Exceptions do
exist, but would have to be something like the deceased
was incompetent and some relative tricked the deceased
into changing the policy, naming them beneficiary or did it without
their knowledge, etc.


Suicide is another exception. No pay off to anybody.
That can differ, depending on the policy. Generally no payout for
suicide within a given time - quite often 2 years from implementation
of policy.

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
numan typed:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy,
does this go to probate like the will? Someone I know was
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were not
related to the person. Family members attempted to sue
the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.
I know someone else who just recently found out they are
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were
related to the deceased. Siblings are of course fighting
among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.
Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading
this been a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and
what was the outcome?

Boy, talk about not knowing where/how to post!!

Hence the reason for OT, it doesn't mean over time. Generally, this group
is the best group on Usenet, but it does contain a few ding dongs like
yourself.

On Oct 16, 3:57*pm, "Bill" wrote:
"numan" *wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would."

What do the "courts" have to decide on in this case?

The probate court has no say on a contract with a named beneficiary
and therefore have nothing to decide on.

numan wrote:
"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
numan typed:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy,
does this go to probate like the will? Someone I know was
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were not
related to the person. Family members attempted to sue
the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.
I know someone else who just recently found out they are
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were
related to the deceased. Siblings are of course fighting
among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.
Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading
this been a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and
what was the outcome?
Boy, talk about not knowing where/how to post!!

Hence the reason for OT, it doesn't mean over time. Generally, this group
is the best group on Usenet, but it does contain a few ding dongs like
yourself.



I believe all the replies except Twayne, know you want real life
experiences, and not looking for a legal reply. Forgive Twayne, they
seem to have forgotten to take their meds.

On 10/17/2011 3:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 16, 3:57 pm, wrote:
"numan" wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would."

What do the "courts" have to decide on in this case?

The probate court has no say on a contract with a named beneficiary
and therefore have nothing to decide on.



Might it go to probate if the beneficiary is a trust?

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:45:26 -0400, Norminn wrote:

On 10/17/2011 3:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 16, 3:57 pm, wrote:
"numan" wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the outcome?

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would."

What do the "courts" have to decide on in this case?

The probate court has no say on a contract with a named beneficiary
and therefore have nothing to decide on.



Might it go to probate if the beneficiary is a trust?

No, but the trust might.

In article ,
" wrote:



Might it go to probate if the beneficiary is a trust?

No, but the trust might.

The point being that it is possible for an insurance policy to become
part of probate, but you have to work really hard to do it.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

Andy replied:
As I advised, the OP should go to misc.legal.moderated for a
more "learned" answer.... Trying to get legal advice from laymen
on a home repair newsgroup is not a good practice...
If it is really important, the OP should go to an attorney...

Your experience might apply to YOU, but may not apply to the
OP... Depends completely on the state statutes....

In general, if a person owes the IRS (for instance) a bunch of
money,
and then goes out and buys a big big life insurance policy in order
to
leave his estate to a beneficiary to avoid paying his tax bill....
well,,,, guess what is going to happen... Don't be dense.....

But, the OP should ask an attorney in estate planning for a
complete answer that anticipates these problems for his own
particular situation...

Andy in Eureka, PE

On Oct 16, 7:02 pm, wrote:

No probate for insurance policy in Canada - don't know about USA.



Andy comments:
Insurance will "normally" pass outside of probate in the US.
However
the issue of the insurance may be "confiscated" to satisfy a tax
liability if the
government can show that the reason for buying the insurance policy
was to avoid paying taxes owed....In the US, they are very much aware
of tax dodges, especially in "estate" taxes....

Tax liablility does NOT pass outside of probate.... Probate simply
decides
where the money goes AFTER all the claims against the estate are
paid.....

One cannot "give away" their estate prior to death to avoid paying
tax at death.. In many cases, private claims may also be made
against
ANY operations that can be shown to be done solely to avoid paying
them... In some cases, the beneficiary can be named as a co-
conspirator....

The OP, if he has something to gain/lose other than a spirited
discussion,
should consult an attorney....one that specializes in estate planning
and
tax law.... in the proper locality...


Andy in Eureka, PE

On Oct 17, 4:36*pm, Andy wrote:
Andy replied:
* As I advised, the OP should go to misc.legal.moderated for a
more "learned" answer.... Trying to get legal advice from laymen
on a home repair newsgroup is not a good practice...
* * If it is really important, the OP should go to an attorney...

* *Your experience might apply to YOU, but may not apply to the
OP... *Depends completely on the state statutes....

* *In general, if a person owes the IRS (for instance) a bunch of
money,
and then goes out and buys a big big life insurance policy in order
to
leave his estate to a beneficiary to avoid paying his tax bill....
well,,,, guess what is going to happen... Don't be dense.....

I'll leave it for others as to who's being dense. The guy
asked a simple question about whether a life insurance
policy is subject to probate. To which you replied:

" HOWEVER, those items are subject to estate and government taxes,
as well as claims against the estate . "


Yes, I'm sure you can come up with a pathological
case where some scoundrel tried to hide money
from the IRS or committed some other fraud using
a life insurance policy. And as a result, yes someone
could POSSSIBLY get the proceeds redirected from
the beneficiary. But is that what the OP asked or
what happens 99% of the time?

Your broad statement imples that all life insurance
proceeds are subject to estate and govt taxes. And
that they are subject to creditors with claims
against the estate, like a hospital or funeral bill That
is not true. Life insurance is not subject to federal income
tax and while it might be included for estate tax
purposes, the estate would have to be 1 mil plus
for there to be any federal estate tax at all. Usually
folks in that category are smart enough to have
insurance policies that completely avoid the issue
of taxation. Probably 99% of insurance policies are
just paid to the beneficiary, end of story.


*But, the OP should ask an attorney in estate planning for a
complete answer that anticipates these problems for his own
particular situation...

* * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, *PE

Yeah, he could, but it sounds rather expensive for
what appears to be a curiosity question about a
situation that isn't even his own.

"numan" wrote in message
...

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
numan typed:
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy,
does this go to probate like the will? Someone I know was
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were not
related to the person. Family members attempted to sue
the beneficiary, which they failed in doing so. This has
been about 10 years ago.
I know someone else who just recently found out they are
the beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were
related to the deceased. Siblings are of course fighting
among themselves (sad!) saying the beneficiary should
"share" it.
Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading
this been a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and
what was the outcome?

Boy, talk about not knowing where/how to post!!

Hence the reason for OT, it doesn't mean over time. Generally, this group
is the best group on Usenet, but it does contain a few ding dongs like
yourself.

Dear Whatever:

I notice you have taken to task a writer about whether or not a post is on
topic, is spelled correctly, or is correct in some other minute detail.

I would like to inform you that the post of Netnanny is already filled. It
is held by Newton Fillmore, of Pacoima, California, although Mr. Fillmore is
currently in a coma in a facility in Riverside, and has been for three
years, eight months now. We just could not bring ourselves to demote him
without a proper hearing and him being present.

Please be advised that there are currently over 500 applicants and wannabes
for the position. That does not include people like yourself who have
broken with protocol and currently act like they are in the cherished
position.

If and when and if ever the post becomes available, you will be required to
write an essay of no longer than 1500 words, single spaced, using the words
there, they're, their, your, you're, and any others you can come up with in
as many incorrect grammatical situations as possible.

You must also describe the difference between "lose" and "loose" in 25 words
or less.

You must also include the reason that you think entitles you the lifelong
right to hold this post, and review the rest of humanity on its daily
heretofore
unobserved unsupervised act of Usenet Posting.

Steve
3rd Poohbah and Grand Mucky Muck
of the Society of Netnannies.

Addended by 4/19/2011

You forgot three of my favorites, its and it's, lightning and
lightening, and to, too and two

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Oct 16, 3:57 pm, "Bill" wrote:
"numan" wrote in message
When one is a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, does this go
to probate like the will? Someone I know was the beneficiary of a
life insurance policy. They were not related to the person. Family
members attempted to sue the beneficiary, which they failed in
doing
so. This has been about 10 years ago.

I know someone else who just recently found out they are the
beneficiary of a life insurance policy. They were related to the
deceased. Siblings are of course fighting among themselves (sad!)
saying the beneficiary should "share" it.

Course this is a legal issue, but has anyone else reading this
been
a beneficiary of a life insurance policy, and what was the
outcome?

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would. In
this case, the person named a specific person as the beneficiary. It
was his or her wish that the named person receive the money. Simple
as
that! Just do as the deceased wished.

FYI - Because other people are wanting money they are not entitled
to,
I would bet that is the reason they were not named as beneficiaries
too!

Courts frequently decide things as a "reasonable person" would."

What do the "courts" have to decide on in this case?

The probate court has no say on a contract with a named beneficiary
and therefore have nothing to decide on.

The point is there is "no point" for the other heirs in trying to take
any legal action to get some of the life insurance money.

Andy comments
You should address your replies to the original poster if you
have anything useful to add.

I ,personally, have no interest in learning the legal opinion
of some layman who posts anonymously on a home repair newsgroup.

Apparently, the OP thinks this is a good place to ask his/her
question. I disagree...

Your time should be better spent...

Andy in Eureka, PE

On Oct 19, 8:57*am, Andy wrote:
Andy comments
* You should address your replies to the original poster if you
have anything useful to add.

* *I ,personally, have no interest in learning the legal opinion
of *some layman who posts anonymously on a home repair newsgroup.

You mean a layman like you who answered the question
that was asked by implying that a simple life insurance
policy is subject to fed govt taxes and creditor claims?

Or the layman like you that suggested he consult an
estate attorney for the answer to a hypothetical
question concerning some other person's situation?

Great advice all around dude!

On Oct 19, 9:06 am, "
wrote:

You mean a layman like you who answered the question
that was asked by implying that a simple life insurance
policy is subject to fed govt taxes and creditor claims?


Andy answers,
I am hardly a layman on this subject.
Here is a summation and a court cite which shows that life
insurance proceeds are not sacrosanct . It took about 30 seconds
to find the first one... which I will cut and paste here.

************** Cut and paste ************
...... the IRS may be able to proceed under transferee liability
statutes or on the basis of a pre-death lien on the taxpayer's
property. For example, see a California case where the widow's claim
to life insurance proceeds took a back seat to the IRS's demand for
the decedent's taxes. Kieferdorf, May v. Com., (1944, CA9) 32 AFTR
728 , 142 F2d 723 , 44-1 USTC ¶9323 , cert den(1944, S Ct) 323 US
733 , 89 L Ed 588.

**** End of cut and paste *****************

Nothing is sheltered from the IRS if they are owed money, and the
amount is enough for
them to want to pursue it... The creditor list isn't limited to be
the IRS.... this is just a
good example that proves the principle....

My advice to the OP that the question be asked in a forum
where people are experienced in the subject is good advice.

Two suggestions: 1) misc.legal.moderated
2) use google with a key phrase like "life
insurance proceeds subject
to government seizure"

Lots of good, valuable, citeable advice is available, but one has to
look for it
in the right place.

Try it yourself. You may learn something


Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

Andy replies:
If you read my posts , you will see that I did note that if there
was no tax due, the IRS claim did not apply. State and local
inheritance taxes might, however...

I also said that civil claims may or may not apply, depending
on circumstance.

I don't think you understand the probate process..... Probate is
the method that is used to change the "title" of an asset. In
general, the "title" only needs to be changed if it hasn't been
speciffied while the decedent was alive.

There are two classes of assets. "Probatable assets" and
"non-probatable assets"....

A life insurance , held in the decedents name, but designating
a beneficiary is a "non-probatable" asset. It is part of the
estate, but doesn't need to have the "title" or "owner of record"
changed. Hence, no probate is needed by a court.
HOWEVER, it is subject to claims by creditors.......A taxing
authority always goes to the head of the line, whether it be
federal , state, or local..... The same legal argument can be
made for private creditors, and frequently is......Like I said,
sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't....the laws regarding
the times that claims can be filed varies....

Now, ... I have shown that you are incorrect, and you have shown
that you just want to argue about the subject..... I have no more
time to teach you, so you should go and research the area for
yourself.

Here are three websites which cover the subject in the
simple terms that you apparently need:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5814704_li...e-income_.html

http://wills.about.com/od/howtoavoid...obateasset.htm

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edi...g/basic_3a.asp


I encourage you to become more familiar with the subject before
giving out advice on the matter....


Regarding the OP's initial post ---- ANYONE can challenge a will
or a distribution. If a beneficiary was designated BEFORE the person
died, it can rarely be challenged successfully, unless it can be shown
that the decedent was mentally incompetent.... That is very very
hard to do. Just being a "relative" does NOT have any standing
whatsoever if the decedent has decided not to give them anything....


And, yes, I do live in a world where the federal tax is a factor in
estate planning decisions...... Don't you ????

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On Oct 20, 4:48 am, "
wrote:

Andy adds:

Oh.... I'm sorry... I forgot to answer YOUR questions...
Here it is :



And regarding probate, you didn't answer his
question which was does the life insurance policy
go through probate or not. Do you agree that the
general case is that it does not?

*** It is not a GENERAL case... Life insurance proceeds which
designate a beneficiary other than the decedent
NEVER go thru probate because they are classified as
a 'Non-Probatable Asset"..... I think l said that a few tiimes...
Often a beneficiary isn't designated, so the case isn't "general"...
Pay attention...

Or do you want
to come up with every possible pathological
exception to that,
such as that the policy is payable to the deceased
himself?

*** You still don't understand. NORMALLY, when a life
insurance policy is used in estate planning, the policy
is "payable to the deceased himself" (your term) , which means it
is deposited into the general estate of the deceased without
designating a beneficiary....... This is done in
order to have a big stash to pay off all the creditors from
all sources so that property, such as real estate, doesn't
have to be liquidated to pay the bill... If a will exists,
probate will then distribute the "remainder" ....

There. I think I have covered all your questions. Please
use google more often in the future.

...... and go over to misc.taxes.moderate and
misc.legal.moderated so that you can ask your questions
in the correct arena.... People usually come to alt.home.repair
to fix leaky faucets and change light switches....


Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

On Oct 20, 9:35*am, Andy wrote:
Andy replies:
* If you read my posts , you will see that I did note that if there
was no tax due, the IRS claim did not apply. State and local
inheritance taxes might, however...

* *I also said that civil claims may or may not apply, depending
on circumstance.

* * I don't think you understand the probate process..... Probate is
the method that is used to change the "title" of an asset. In
general, the "title" only needs to be changed if it hasn't been
speciffied while the decedent was alive.

* There are two classes of assets. *"Probatable assets" and
"non-probatable assets"....

* *A life insurance , held in the decedents name, but designating
a beneficiary is a "non-probatable" asset. * It is part of the
estate, but doesn't need to have the "title" or "owner of record"
changed. *Hence, no probate is needed by a court.

No **** Sherlock. So why didn't you just tell that to the
OP in the first place? I gave them the simple answer
that it doesn't go through probate in the first reply.



* *HOWEVER, it is subject to claims by creditors.......A taxing
authority always goes to the head of *the line, whether it be
federal , state, or local..... * The same legal argument can be
made for private creditors, and frequently is.....

Oh, yeah?

http://www.pearlstein-law.com/asset.html

Not in DC:

Life Insurance. The District of Columbia exempts individual life
insurance proceeds from claims of creditors and representatives of the
insured and the person effecting the policy. However, the beneficiary
must not be the insured or the person effecting the policy. The
District's exemption applies without regard to whether the person
claiming the exemption reserves the right to change beneficiaries or
whether the insured is a contingent beneficiary of the policy.

Not in Maryland:

Maryland exempts life insurance proceeds in the hands of an insured's
spouse, child, or dependent relative. This exemption also protects
against all claims of the insured's creditors. Moreover, it applies
even if the insured may change the beneficiary. However, it does not
protect life insurance proceeds against debts for which the insured
has pledged the policy as security.

Maryland also provides a separate exemption for money payable from
insurance (or any other source) in the event of any person's death,
sickness, accident, or injury, without regard to the beneficiary's
identity.

Not in VA either:

Under Virginia law, creditors can reach life insurance proceeds to the
extent of premiums paid with the intent to defraud creditors. If the
policy's owner reserves the right to change beneficiaries, the
policy's cash surrender or loan value will be subject to the claims of
creditors but the exemption will cover its proceeds.

Virginia also exempts group life insurance and its proceeds from
attachment, garnishment, and other legal process.

Even if the insured's creditors prove that premium payments
constituted fraudulent conveyances, such creditors cannot reach life
insurance death benefits except to recover the value of the premiums
fraudulently paid.


Not in FL

Life Insurance
Fla. Stat., §222.13(1) (2011) provides:

Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance
on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the
benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is
designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt
from the claims of creditors of the insured unless the insurance
policy or a valid assignment thereof provides otherwise.

Not in NY

http://www.lawny.org/index.php/consu...y-bank-account

Is any other kind of income protected?

Yes. The law also protects the following kinds of income:

•Black lung benefits

•Railroad retirement

•Public or private pensions

•Survivors’ and disability benefits

•College tuition trusts

•Life insurance



Maybe somewhere, but clearly not in all those states.
And note that
the question was never "The IRS and creditors are laying
claim to the life'insurance proceeds that are due my friend
from a relative's death". The queston was does my
friend's life insurance proceeds have to go through probate
and would siblings have any claim to share it.






..Like I said,
sometimes it works , sometimes it doesn't....the laws regarding
the times that claims can be filed varies....

* * Now, ... I have shown that you are incorrect, and you have shown
that you just want to argue about the subject..... I have no more
time to teach you, so you should go and research the area for
yourself.

Here are three websites which cover the subject in the
simple terms that you apparently need:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5814704_li...axable-income_...

http://wills.about.com/od/howtoavoid...obateasset.htm

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/Edi...g/basic_3a.asp

I encourage you to become more familiar with the subject before
giving out advice on the matter....

Regarding the OP's *initial post ---- ANYONE can challenge a will
or a distribution. If a beneficiary was designated BEFORE the person
died, it can rarely be challenged successfully, unless it can be shown
that the decedent was mentally incompetent.... That is very very
hard to do. * Just being a "relative" does NOT have any standing
whatsoever if the decedent has decided not to give them anything....

And, yes, I do live in a world where the federal tax is a factor in
estate planning decisions...... * Don't you ????

* * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas

On Oct 20, 9:49*am, Andy wrote:
On Oct 20, 4:48 am, "
wrote:

Andy adds:

*Oh.... I'm sorry... I forgot to answer YOUR questions...
Here it is :



And regarding probate, you didn't answer his
question which was does the life insurance policy
go through probate or not. *Do you agree that the
general case is that it does not?

*** It is not a GENERAL case... Life insurance proceeds which
designate a beneficiary other than the decedent
NEVER go thru probate because they are classified as
a 'Non-Probatable Asset"..... *I think l said that a few tiimes...
Often a beneficiary isn't designated, so the case isn't "general"...
Pay attention...


I did pay attention to the OP, but you sure didn't
Otherwise you'd know that the beneficiary was
designated and it's a relative. Got it now?

And can you possibly be so dense that you
don't understand that when I said life insurance,
in the general case, does not go through probate
that it is correct? In the general case, you
designate someone else other than your estate
as the beneficiary. And that is exactly the
case as stated by the OP where a relative is
the beneficiary.


*Or do you want

to come up with every possible pathological
exception to that,
such as that the policy is payable to the deceased
himself?

*** You still don't understand. * NORMALLY, when a life
insurance policy is used in estate planning, the policy
is "payable to the deceased himself" *(your term) , which means it

I did pay attention to the OP, but you sure didn't
Otherwise you'd know that the beneficiary was
designated and it's a relative. That is NOT the
deceased. Got it now?

I'd also like to see where life insurance policies
are typically payable to the deceased themselves.
I'd like to hear from anyone else here who has
named themselves as beneficiaries. I've had
policies. I know relatives that have had policies.
And none of them had designated the insured
as beneficiaries.


is deposited into the general estate of the deceased without
designating a beneficiary....... This is *done in
order to have a big stash to pay off all the creditors from
all sources so that property, such as real estate, doesn't
have to be *liquidated to pay the bill... *If a will exists,
probate will then *distribute the "remainder" ....

* There. * I think I have covered all your questions. *Please
use google more often in the future.

You've answered all your own pathological questions,
from the IRS being a creditor, to the estate being the
beneficiary. But those were never questions posed by
the OP to begin with.



..... and go over to misc.taxes.moderate and
misc.legal.moderated so that you can ask your questions
in the correct arena.... People usually come to alt.home.repair
to fix leaky faucets and change light switches....

* * * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas * PE

You're still confused. I'm not the one asking the
question. The OP, numan, asked. And it's been
answered long ago. Everyone else here seems to
pretty much agree on that, except you.

On Oct 20, 10:51 am, "
wrote:

No **** Sherlock. So why didn't you just tell that to the
OP in the first place? I gave them the simple answer
that it doesn't go through probate in the first reply.



Andy makes one final comment

So, what state did "numan" say he was in..??.. My advice
was to ask the question in a forum where someone would
know the answer...

I have spent enough time reading your posts which are
argumentative, ill-informed, and you are doing only to
satisfy your ego...

I'm sure "numan" will know now whether to ask someone
who has in-depth knowledge of the subject, or a
do-it-yourself guru wannabe with an ego problem....

:)))))))

Andy in Eureka, Texas

PS For those who have Emailed me for some guidance
---- I will try to reply only if you live in Texas, since the
state regulations are varied and I haven't the inclination
to do the research for free....

On Oct 20, 2:15*pm, Andy wrote:
On Oct 20, 10:51 am, "
wrote:

No **** Sherlock. *So why didn't you just tell that to the
OP in the first place? *I gave them the simple answer
that it doesn't go through probate in the first reply.

Andy makes one final comment

So, what state did "numan" say he was in..??.. * My advice
was to ask the question in a forum where someone would
know the answer...

*I have spent enough time reading your posts which are
argumentative, ill-informed, and you are doing only to
satisfy your ego...

And who are you here to satisfy?



* I'm sure "numan" will know now whether to ask someone
who has in-depth knowledge of the subject, or a
do-it-yourself guru wannabe with an ego problem....

* * :)))))))

* * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas


Yeah, I'm sure he's on his way to an estate attorney right
now, like you recommended, for an opinion on that
curiosity question regarding a friend receiving a life
insurance payout.