On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:14:34 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:


One of the most outrageous examples I ever came across was a federal
contractor who was installing a fire sprinkler system WITHOUT PLUMBING!
They just attached the heads to the ceiling panels hoping they might never
be inspected or tested. Never underestimate what a person or company will
due when they're facing bankruptcy. I'm waiting for some serious disasters
to occur because safety is often an area quite prone to panic-style cost
cutting.

Someone that would do that should be in jail.......for a long time.

On Sep 22, 4:44*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Sep 16, 1:55*am, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

Want to install several X10 relay switches in the house to turn on lights remotely. *This would obviate my walking across the room in the dark to get to the light switch.

Problem: *The X10 switch/relay requires full power at the wall switch location. *Several of my switches have only a hot leg coming into the box with no neutral. *X10 docs. recommend simply running a neutral wire into the box. *
Question: *Most of my wiring is within the attic and some of the switches are on the exterior walls. *These locations are inaccessible from the attic since this is where the roof meets the ceiling ergo providing mere inches of crawl space. *It would be much easier to run the neutral wire from below (I have a generous 42" high crawl space). *
Question: *Does this neutral have to come from the same circuit? *Can I simply come from any circuit (even a separate new circuit) and run a white neutral wire to each switch box? *Does it have to be from the same phase? *X10 docs. do mention that if not from the same phase, then the phases can be joined at the box.

All comments, advice and suggestions appreciated.

Ivan Vegvary

HUH, Unless X10 switch modules have been redesigned lately they DO NOT
require a neutral. Most of my switches are on the ends of switch loops
and I have replaced several switches with X10 modules. No Neutral
available or required at these points..

Jimmie

There are both kinds of X10 switch modules, ie those that don't use
a neutral and those that do. The ones that don't only work with
incandescent lights or similar resistive loads. The other ones are
for any load. Apparently even the ones that don't use a neutral
can be used with CFLs if you also provide a resistive load, eg
a small incandescent night light.

I agree that if he can use one of the X10 switches that do not
require a neutral it's the simplest solution to his problem.

Want to install several X10 relay switches in the house to turn on lights
remotely. This would obviate my walking across the room in the dark to
get to the light switch.

Problem: The X10 switch/relay requires full power at the wall switch
location. Several of my switches have only a hot leg coming into the box
with no neutral. X10 docs. recommend simply running a neutral wire into
the box.
Question: Most of my wiring is within the attic and some of the switches
are on the exterior walls. These locations are inaccessible from the
attic since this is where the roof meets the ceiling ergo providing mere
inches of crawl space. It would be much easier to run the neutral wire
from below (I have a generous 42" high crawl space).
Question: Does this neutral have to come from the same circuit? Can I
simply come from any circuit (even a separate new circuit) and run a white
neutral wire to each switch box? Does it have to be from the same phase?
X10 docs. do mention that if not from the same phase, then the phases can
be joined at the box.


Did you check outside the switch box, the neutral may be there.

You may want to consider Insteon which is an improved system over X10. It is
not perfect but alot better from my experience.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:09:57 -0500, bud--
wrote:

On 9/21/2011 10:12 PM, wrote:
On Sep 21, 5:44 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:27:21 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:
On Sep 20, 10:55 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 22:17:13 -0400, Doug Miller

wrote:
On 9/20/2011 9:25 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:43:32 -0400, "Robert Green"

The NEW building the insurance office I work for every morning moved
into a year ago has all kinds of "orphan" neutrals.

Why? What would cause someone to do that?

Laziness, stupidity, and ignorance come to mind as the most obvious
explanations.

and it passed inspection that way. Not saying it is right.

It wasn't. I'd still like to know how to easily check for crossed neutrals
in a house that I want to buy. Standard outlet tests (with those little LED
testers) revealed nothing wrong with the house that I bought that had
several crossed neutrals.

And it won't, either. There is no easy way to check.

Because ELECTRICALLY, there is no difference as long as nothing goes
wrong. You need to physically disconnect and separate all the neutrals
and then check for interconnection between circuits - one at a time,
in every possible combination, to find it. Or load each circuit, and
energizing each circuit sparately, check each neutral to see if the
neutral corresponding to the line - and ONLY the neutral corresponding
to the line, is "live" - while all neutrals are physically
disconnected.

Requires a load at each outlet.


Only other way is to physically trace back all the wires - an even
BIGGER job.

I would think a relatively easy test would be to put in a GFCI
breaker, temporarily at least, in each breaker slot. GFCI's
include a circuit which places a small test voltage on the
hot and neutral simultaneously to detect if there is a short
between the neutral and ground anywhere in the circuit.
That GFCI would also trip in the case where the neutral
is either not for that circuit, or crosswired with another
neutral because it would look to the GFCI just like a
short between neutral and ground.

No, it would not - as ALL neutrals are connected. The only way the
GFCI would trip is if there is a problem in one of the neutrals -if
even then.

If neutrals from different circuits are interconnected, the GFCI feature
trader describes would cause an immediate trip. The feature is intended
to detect downstream N-G connections and a N-otherN connection looks the
same.

If the circuit is connected to a different neutral, when a load is
connected the neutral and hot current at the GFCI breaker will be
different and the GFCI will trip.

OK, I can see how it would work with a GFCI BREAKER. I was thinking
GFCI outlet - where it would NOT necessarily show up.




Wrong. Go take a look at how a GFCI is actually designed.
As I stated, besides comparing the current flowing
in the hot and neutral through any loads,
they also generate a small 120hz
test voltage on both the hot and neutral. Any path back to
that GFCI other than the hot and neutral connected to it
will result in it tripping. That path could be the neutral
of that circuit connected to ground OR that neutral
connected to another neutral. In either case, the
GFCI will trip as soon as power is turned on, without
any load.

For a different neutral the trip will be when there is a load connected,
not immediate.

The injected current on the hot wire doesn't accomplish anything since
there is voltage on the hot wire anyway. If the GFCI is reverse H-N
wired the feature that detects a N-G (or N-otherN) connection downstream
will still work.

I can't think of an easier test than GFCI breakers. You need to stick a
load on each outlet.

But a little hard in my house - since it is all FUSED.


You could also loop a clamp on ammeter around both H and N for the
circuit. It would also require a connected load, one outlet at a time.

There isn't a real easy test for N-N connection and interchanged neutrals.


So, if you want to find out if you have any shared or
crossed neutrals, all you have to do is replace breakers
one at a time with a GFCI and turn the power on. If
there are any crossed or shared, the GFCI will trip.
It's all about parallel circuits.




Try it some time. Wire up a couple of circuits on a test board and
plug it into an outlet. Have 2 "circuits" on the test board, and cross
the neutrals. Put a GFCI on one or both circuits ant test to your
heart's content.

You really should stop giving advice on subjects
beyond your pay grade.

Sure seems that way some days.

------------------------------------
I agree that capturing a neutral from a different circuit is a dumb idea
(particularly from an EE).

I don't think it came up - the problem of no neutral at a switch is why
the 2011 NEC requires a neutral (with major exceptions).

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:24:16 -0500, bud--
wrote:

On 9/22/2011 8:00 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

I don't think it came up - the problem of no neutral at a switch is why
the 2011 NEC requires a neutral (with major exceptions).

After years and years of seeing people pull neutrals from other circuits and
the proliferation of switches and devices that need a neutral, it was long
overdue.

I just wonder how much money builders saved by wiring wall switches without
neutrals?

There wasn't any need for a neutral in the past. It is the various
electronic switch devices that created the need.
There have been areas where the inspectors DEMANDED 3 wire cable to
be used to switches because the DEMANDED the power be black and the
traveller red. It also made it easier to install ceiling fans.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:44:59 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE
wrote:

On Sep 16, 1:55Â*am, Ivan Vegvary wrote:
Want to install several X10 relay switches in the house to turn on lights remotely. Â*This would obviate my walking across the room in the dark to get to the light switch.

Problem: Â*The X10 switch/relay requires full power at the wall switch location. Â*Several of my switches have only a hot leg coming into the box with no neutral. Â*X10 docs. recommend simply running a neutral wire into the box. Â*
Question: Â*Most of my wiring is within the attic and some of the switches are on the exterior walls. Â*These locations are inaccessible from the attic since this is where the roof meets the ceiling ergo providing mere inches of crawl space. Â*It would be much easier to run the neutral wire from below (I have a generous 42" high
crawl space). Â*
Question: Â*Does this neutral have to come from the same circuit? Â*Can I simply come from any circuit (even a separate new circuit) and run a white neutral wire to each switch box? Â*Does it have to be from the same phase? Â*X10 docs. do mention that if not from the same phase, then the phases can be joined at the box.

All comments, advice and suggestions appreciated.

Ivan Vegvary

HUH, Unless X10 switch modules have been redesigned lately they DO NOT
require a neutral. Most of my switches are on the ends of switch loops
and I have replaced several switches with X10 modules. No Neutral
available or required at these points..

Jimmie
If you have "incandescent only" switches there in no neutral required
.. Switches that can handle flourescents and electronic transformers
require the neutral.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 15:14:34 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:


One of the most outrageous examples I ever came across was a federal
contractor who was installing a fire sprinkler system WITHOUT PLUMBING!
They just attached the heads to the ceiling panels hoping they might
never
be inspected or tested. Never underestimate what a person or company
will
due when they're facing bankruptcy. I'm waiting for some serious
disasters
to occur because safety is often an area quite prone to panic-style cost
cutting.

Someone that would do that should be in jail.......for a long time.

I agree. I left the organization before I found out what happened in the
end, but you'd be shocked to learn which Federal agency was afflicted.

--
Bobby G.
* KEDENBURG, JOHN J. Rank and organization: Specialist Fifth Class, U.S.
Army, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), 1st Special Forces. place and
date: Republic of Vietnam, 13 June 1968. Entered service at: Brooklyn, N.Y.
Born: 31 July 1946, Brooklyn, N.Y. Just as the helicopter was to lift them
out of the area, the South Vietnamese team member who had been unaccounted
for after the initial encounter with the enemy appeared in the landing zone.
Sp5c. Kedenburg unhesitatingly gave up his place in the sling to the man and
directed the helicopter pilot to leave the area. He then continued to engage
the enemy who were swarming into the landing zone, killing 6 enemy soldiers
before he was overpowered.

There have been areas where the inspectors DEMANDED 3 wire cable to
be used to switches because the DEMANDED the power be black and the
traveller red. It also made it easier to install ceiling fans.

I can see inspectors "demanding" that when normal cable is used for a
switch loop that the white wire be colored but "demanding" 3 conductor
(plus ground) cable is an unnecessary cost increase.

When you have 2 or so switches per room, the cost of the extra wiring
definitely adds up. If someone in retrospect "needs" three conductor
cable, it's just not a big thing to "fish" the cable while only making a
few small holes in the drywall.

N.B.: In high rise units and other places where conduit (including
some form of flexible conduit) is standard, switch loops do use a red
and black covered wires. Of course in new conduit work the rules
require a bit of "spare" conduit space.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:07 -0400, John Gilmer
wrote:


There have been areas where the inspectors DEMANDED 3 wire cable to
be used to switches because the DEMANDED the power be black and the
traveller red. It also made it easier to install ceiling fans.

I can see inspectors "demanding" that when normal cable is used for a
switch loop that the white wire be colored but "demanding" 3 conductor
(plus ground) cable is an unnecessary cost increase.

When you have 2 or so switches per room, the cost of the extra wiring
definitely adds up. If someone in retrospect "needs" three conductor
cable, it's just not a big thing to "fish" the cable while only making a
few small holes in the drywall.

N.B.: In high rise units and other places where conduit (including
some form of flexible conduit) is standard, switch loops do use a red
and black covered wires. Of course in new conduit work the rules
require a bit of "spare" conduit space.
The intent - and result, of REQUIRING 3 wire cable for "tail
switched" lighting circuits was to encourage "head switched" lighting
circuits, so when the SWITCH is off, the entire CIRCUIT is dead.
Power to the switch, then from tere to the lights - not the other way
around. And that often takes more wire too.

wrote in message news:2267de60-85f7-4235-8629-

There are both kinds of X10 switch modules, ie those that don't use
a neutral and those that do. The ones that don't only work with
incandescent lights or similar resistive loads. The other ones are
for any load. Apparently even the ones that don't use a neutral
can be used with CFLs if you also provide a resistive load, eg
a small incandescent night light.

I just tried an experiment. I have several infrequently used single socket
overhead fixtures that flash very rapidly when used with the typical X-10
WS467 wall switch and a CFL. I just bought a two-way socket splitter,
loaded one side with a small nighlite bulb and the other with a CFL. The
switch worked normally now, although the illumination is slightly uneven and
the CFL touches the plastic diffuser. I can fix than by lengthening the
chain.

Sadly, the one light where it might have been useful is the porch front
light which is a carriage house single bulb fixture. I ended up pulling new
wire to new fixture in a spot closer to the driveway. As I believe Clare
mentioned, the switch loops remain live and in an X-10 circuit if you forget
to toggle the lockout slide, you can have a very startling "pop in the hand"
experience as the (bad) bulb makes contact, activates the local sense
circuit, turns the light on and the bulb "pops" in your hand (probably
because of a bad seal).

I agree that if he can use one of the X10 switches that do not
require a neutral it's the simplest solution to his problem.

On infrequently used lights, it's the best way to go But I'm happy that I
can use socket splitters and can now replace a single bulb overhead fixture
with a multiple bulb one, using a small nightlight in one of the sockets to
provide a resistive load that can trickle current through to the X-10
circuitry.

This was a useful thread. This will have high SAF to be able to put some
bright overhead lighting in for the fall cleaning season, which is about the
only time we use them (other than for whole-house light flashing when the
alarm goes off - very useful there, too).

The prices on 23W bulbs have really dropped. I guess the idea of people
making do with 13W bulbs was pretty optimistic. I also noticed that the
electronics pods on the last batch of 23W bulbs I bought were way smaller
than those of bulbs bought two years ago. They actually fit in some of my
desk lamps now.

--
Bobby G.

On 9/25/2011 8:42 AM, John Gilmer wrote:

There have been areas where the inspectors DEMANDED 3 wire cable to
be used to switches because the DEMANDED the power be black and the
traveller red. It also made it easier to install ceiling fans.

I can see inspectors "demanding" that when normal cable is used for a
switch loop that the white wire be colored but "demanding" 3 conductor
(plus ground) cable is an unnecessary cost increase.

Note that clare lives in Ontario.

I agree that you should be able to re-color the white in a cable like romex.

But as I noted in a previous post, the 2011 NEC now generally requires a
neutral at switch locations (404.2-C). The reason is to avoid the
problem at the start of this thread. A neutral is not required if
raceways have extra capacity to add a neutral, or when the wall is
easily refished (including open at the top on that floor level - common
in offices with drop ceilings).


When you have 2 or so switches per room, the cost of the extra wiring
definitely adds up. If someone in retrospect "needs" three conductor
cable, it's just not a big thing to "fish" the cable while only making a
few small holes in the drywall.

If you need to add a neutral to romex it isn't usually all that easy.

(And I don't believe making holes in the drywall is what the NEC intends
for the exception.)


N.B.: In high rise units and other places where conduit (including some
form of flexible conduit) is standard, switch loops do use a red and
black covered wires. Of course in new conduit work the rules require a
bit of "spare" conduit space.

There used to be "new-" and "old-work" tables for conduit fill; they
disappeared long ago. There isn't any "spare" conduit space that can be
used later.

--
bud--

On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:22:11 -0500, bud--
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 8:42 AM, John Gilmer wrote:

There have been areas where the inspectors DEMANDED 3 wire cable to
be used to switches because the DEMANDED the power be black and the
traveller red. It also made it easier to install ceiling fans.

I can see inspectors "demanding" that when normal cable is used for a
switch loop that the white wire be colored but "demanding" 3 conductor
(plus ground) cable is an unnecessary cost increase.

Note that clare lives in Ontario.

I agree that you should be able to re-color the white in a cable like romex.

But as I noted in a previous post, the 2011 NEC now generally requires a
neutral at switch locations (404.2-C). The reason is to avoid the
problem at the start of this thread. A neutral is not required if
raceways have extra capacity to add a neutral, or when the wall is
easily refished (including open at the top on that floor level - common
in offices with drop ceilings).


As the NEC now requires a neutral in that situation, these inspectors
were just ahead of their time. Very often you will find Canadian
requirements are more stringent, safety wise, than american - but I'm
not aware these requirements were provincially, or even nationally,
instituted. An inspector in many cases had the authority to require,
or not require, whatever HE wanted to require or not require, if not
in a "uniform code" community.

When you have 2 or so switches per room, the cost of the extra wiring
definitely adds up. If someone in retrospect "needs" three conductor
cable, it's just not a big thing to "fish" the cable while only making a
few small holes in the drywall.

If you are using 3 way switches you need 3 wire anyway.

If you need to add a neutral to romex it isn't usually all that easy.
To put it mildly

(And I don't believe making holes in the drywall is what the NEC intends
for the exception.)

No, and I needed to ADD wiring to my daughter's multi-level townhouse
to install ceiling lights in the bedrooms (thankfully all with "attic"
exposure) and did not want the mess of punching and patching drywall -
so I drilled down through the upper plates, and through the
cross-bracing (fire-stop) down to the existing wall switches and
fished NMD3 cable down through those 3/4" holes and into the provided
holes/cable clamps in the top of the switch boxes. By re-wiring the
switched receptacle I was able to use the "switch drop" cable as a
power feed to the switch - allowing me to feed both a switched ceiling
light and a non-switched ceiling fan. Took me 4 hours for one, two
hours for the second and almost 6 for the third - but I got them done
before having the attic re-insulated. It was hotter than Hades up
there, even in May, and 4 foot extension bits were a NECESSITY. The
fish tape with an LED lamp on the end was pretty slick too - too bad I
didn't have my fancy little flex-tube inspection camera then yet- - -
-.

N.B.: In high rise units and other places where conduit (including some
form of flexible conduit) is standard, switch loops do use a red and
black covered wires. Of course in new conduit work the rules require a
bit of "spare" conduit space.

There used to be "new-" and "old-work" tables for conduit fill; they
disappeared long ago. There isn't any "spare" conduit space that can be
used later.
Unless the electrician is thinking ahead and not pinching pennies and
just, as matter of habit, installs over-size for the requirement
(which makes his job today, and in the future, a lot easier)

On 9/26/2011 7:50 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:22:11 -0500,
wrote:

On 9/25/2011 8:42 AM, John Gilmer wrote:
...
An inspector in many cases had the authority to require,
or not require, whatever HE wanted to require or not require, if not
in a "uniform code" community.

What an absolutely marvelous idea. The AHJ can require whatever they want.


When you have 2 or so switches per room, the cost of the extra wiring
definitely adds up. If someone in retrospect "needs" three conductor
cable, it's just not a big thing to "fish" the cable while only making a
few small holes in the drywall.

If you are using 3 way switches you need 3 wire anyway.

Under the new NEC rule you need 4 wires. Often (always?) this can be
wired as a California 3-way (the electrical kind) and each switch
location would have a hot wire and the switched wire to the light.


N.B.: In high rise units and other places where conduit (including some
form of flexible conduit) is standard, switch loops do use a red and
black covered wires. Of course in new conduit work the rules require a
bit of "spare" conduit space.

There used to be "new-" and "old-work" tables for conduit fill; they
disappeared long ago. There isn't any "spare" conduit space that can be
used later.
Unless the electrician is thinking ahead and not pinching pennies and
just, as matter of habit, installs over-size for the requirement
(which makes his job today, and in the future, a lot easier)

You can put a lot of wires in a 1/2" conduit.

--
bud--