On May 16, 11:08*am, RicodJour wrote:
On May 16, 8:59*am, Home Guy wrote:



Unless you multi-posted your question to alt.home.repair (which would be
bad because multi-posting is bad) I'm going to cross-post this to
alt.home.repair because the group you posted this to
(misc.consumers.house) gets very little traffic.

pontiusj wrote:
I got a bid to put in a new roof, and it included removal of
2 layers of shingles.

Was it your decision to not remove the original shingles when the job
was done the last time?

They got to work, and it turns out there were three layers of
shingles. We got the bill, and they now want to charge us an extra
$1100 for the removal of the third layer (32 square additional tear
off at $35/square)

Is this normal? Is it really so much more work than 2 layers?

It's bad enough to shingle over the existing roof, but to do it twice is
absolutely nuts.

Based on a typical 3-bundle per square, and a weight of 80 lbs per
bundle, you've got a weight of about 2500 lbs per layer.

That means there is 5000 lbs of extra weight on your roof (more than a
full-size pickup truck).

I'd say that yes, if the roofers were going to remove your top layer and
what they though was the bottom layer as part of the original quote, and
now they want to charge you an extra $1000 to remove a third layer, then
that's not really out of line.

Several things:
- how come the roofer didn't know? *You can see an additional layer
from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the ground.
- what does the contract say? *Does it say removal of existing
shingles, or removal of two layers of existing shingles? *If it says
removal of existing shingles the OP doesn't owe the roofer anything
and the roofer will have learned a valuable lesson in not making
assumptions and estimates without doing his homework.
- if you want to be paranoid and assume the worst, it's possible that
the contractor did know about the additional layer and decided to
'discover' it after the job was underway.
- removing three layers is definitely more work and expense for the
roofer than removing two. *If you believe the roofer is shooting
straight, and the contract/estimate simply says removal, then split
the difference with him. *You will both have learned a valuable
lesson.

R

@Rico:

Contract law 101 huh...

Its opinions like yours that cause contracts to become short novels...
The longer the contract the less likely the average homeowner
seeking a repair or improvement is to agree to it... It just isn't
possible to cover every foreseeable circumstance that might
arise on a construction site during a project on a few pages
of contract...

~~ Evan

Evan wrote in
:

On May 16, 11:08*am, RicodJour wrote:
On May 16, 8:59*am, Home Guy wrote:



Unless you multi-posted your question to alt.home.repair (which
would b
e
bad because multi-posting is bad) I'm going to cross-post this to
alt.home.repair because the group you posted this to
(misc.consumers.house) gets very little traffic.

pontiusj wrote:
I got a bid to put in a new roof, and it included removal of
2 layers of shingles.

Was it your decision to not remove the original shingles when the
job was done the last time?

They got to work, and it turns out there were three layers of
shingles. We got the bill, and they now want to charge us an
extra $1100 for the removal of the third layer (32 square
additional tear off at $35/square)

Is this normal? Is it really so much more work than 2 layers?

It's bad enough to shingle over the existing roof, but to do it
twice i
s
absolutely nuts.

Based on a typical 3-bundle per square, and a weight of 80 lbs per
bundle, you've got a weight of about 2500 lbs per layer.

That means there is 5000 lbs of extra weight on your roof (more
than a full-size pickup truck).

I'd say that yes, if the roofers were going to remove your top
layer an
d
what they though was the bottom layer as part of the original
quote, an
d
now they want to charge you an extra $1000 to remove a third layer,
the
n
that's not really out of line.

Several things:
- how come the roofer didn't know? *You can see an additional layer
from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the
ground. - what does the contract say? *Does it say removal of
existing shingles, or removal of two layers of existing shingles? *If
it says removal of existing shingles the OP doesn't owe the roofer
anything and the roofer will have learned a valuable lesson in not
making assumptions and estimates without doing his homework.
- if you want to be paranoid and assume the worst, it's possible that
the contractor did know about the additional layer and decided to
'discover' it after the job was underway.
- removing three layers is definitely more work and expense for the
roofer than removing two. *If you believe the roofer is shooting
straight, and the contract/estimate simply says removal, then split
the difference with him. *You will both have learned a valuable
lesson.

R

@Rico:

Contract law 101 huh...

Its opinions like yours that cause contracts to become short novels...
The longer the contract the less likely the average homeowner
seeking a repair or improvement is to agree to it... It just isn't
possible to cover every foreseeable circumstance that might
arise on a construction site during a project on a few pages
of contract...

~~ Evan

You gotta keep in mind, it's the roofer who whips out the contract. He
expects the client to live up to it but he doesn't have to?

On 5/16/2011 11:52 AM, Red Green wrote:
wrote in
:

On May 16, 11:08 am, wrote:
On May 16, 8:59 am, Home wrote:



Unless you multi-posted your question to alt.home.repair (which
would b
e
bad because multi-posting is bad) I'm going to cross-post this to
alt.home.repair because the group you posted this to
(misc.consumers.house) gets very little traffic.

pontiusj wrote:
I got a bid to put in a new roof, and it included removal of
2 layers of shingles.

Was it your decision to not remove the original shingles when the
job was done the last time?

They got to work, and it turns out there were three layers of
shingles. We got the bill, and they now want to charge us an
extra $1100 for the removal of the third layer (32 square
additional tear off at $35/square)

Is this normal? Is it really so much more work than 2 layers?

It's bad enough to shingle over the existing roof, but to do it
twice i
s
absolutely nuts.

Based on a typical 3-bundle per square, and a weight of 80 lbs per
bundle, you've got a weight of about 2500 lbs per layer.

That means there is 5000 lbs of extra weight on your roof (more
than a full-size pickup truck).

I'd say that yes, if the roofers were going to remove your top
layer an
d
what they though was the bottom layer as part of the original
quote, an
d
now they want to charge you an extra $1000 to remove a third layer,
the
n
that's not really out of line.

Several things:
- how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the
ground. - what does the contract say?

Chuckle. When I had this place reroofed, I insisted on a full tearoff,
and ran off the companies that wanted me to overlay with those locking
barn shingles. Anyway, when the company I hired stripped the roof, they
found a partial 2nd layer on the front side- previous roofing crew had
stripped in five feet from the edges, and decided that was close enough.
No visible 2nd layer at edges.

--
aem sends...

On May 16, 8:49*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On May 16, 11:08 am, *wrote:

Several things:
- how come the roofer didn't know? *You can see an additional layer
from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the
ground. - what does the contract say?

Chuckle. When I had this place reroofed, I insisted on a full tearoff,
and ran off the companies that wanted me to overlay with those locking
barn shingles. Anyway, when the company I hired stripped the roof, they
found a partial 2nd layer on the front side- previous roofing crew had
stripped in five feet from the edges, and decided that was close enough.
No visible 2nd layer at edges.

Did the second roofer's contract specify the number of layers that
were to be removed and did you end up paying extra? Most likely such
a dodge would still be visible from the street as there would be a
noticeable line running up through the tabs of what I assume were
three tab shingles. And it would certainly be noticeable if someone
got up on the roof. You didn't notice it because you weren't looking
for it, and it wouldn't be your dime. A roofer would be looking for
it, should be getting up on the roof to check flashing and all sorts
of other things before an estimate is made, and unless his contract
covered his ass, and exposed yours, it would be his dime if he didn't
pick up on it.

This is why people should discuss an estimate before signing a
contract. In this particular situation if the roofer's contract
specified the number of layers of shingles to be removed, I'd ask how
he knew how many layers were on the roof, and tell him I'm not buying
a number, I'm buying a completed job, that I don't like surprises, and
that I want the roof stripped and that the price I'm signing is the
complete price including stripping to the sheathing, new edging,
flashing and roofing.

The time to protect your interests is before you sign the contract.

R

On 5/16/2011 9:54 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On May 16, 8:49 pm, wrote:
On May 16, 11:08 am, wrote:

Several things:
- how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the
ground. - what does the contract say?

Chuckle. When I had this place reroofed, I insisted on a full tearoff,
and ran off the companies that wanted me to overlay with those locking
barn shingles. Anyway, when the company I hired stripped the roof, they
found a partial 2nd layer on the front side- previous roofing crew had
stripped in five feet from the edges, and decided that was close enough.
No visible 2nd layer at edges.

Did the second roofer's contract specify the number of layers that
were to be removed and did you end up paying extra? Most likely such
a dodge would still be visible from the street as there would be a
noticeable line running up through the tabs of what I assume were
three tab shingles. And it would certainly be noticeable if someone
got up on the roof. You didn't notice it because you weren't looking
for it, and it wouldn't be your dime. A roofer would be looking for
it, should be getting up on the roof to check flashing and all sorts
of other things before an estimate is made, and unless his contract
covered his ass, and exposed yours, it would be his dime if he didn't
pick up on it.

This is why people should discuss an estimate before signing a
contract. In this particular situation if the roofer's contract
specified the number of layers of shingles to be removed, I'd ask how
he knew how many layers were on the roof, and tell him I'm not buying
a number, I'm buying a completed job, that I don't like surprises, and
that I want the roof stripped and that the price I'm signing is the
complete price including stripping to the sheathing, new edging,
flashing and roofing.

The time to protect your interests is before you sign the contract.

R

He didn't charge me extra for the partial second layer, or for the few
odd spots of mushy decking. It was a flat-fee job, strip and reinstall
30 year fancy 2-layer shingles. He did cut a few corners I should have
raised a fuss about, like the chimney flashing and the wrong caps for
the fart fans, but mostly did a good job. This was a owner-run place,
just down the road, and they were the only ones that didn't send a damn
salesman to do the estimate.

--
aem sends...