A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

DerbyDad03 wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

i believe typically you don't want steady state to be higher than 80% of the
breaker, or 16. perhaps they felt it would be too marginal and spec'ed the
next one higher than 20a.

a 20a breaker will supply more than 20a for a very short period of time. a
cold motor may require more than a warm moter. perhaps the first failure
warms up, or breaks loose some crud in the motor so that it starts easier
the next time, and when it sits, it hardens up again.

On Jan 19, 8:06*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V * * 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient *for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!



Does the wall with merely provide power to the hot tub & the tub has
its own on/off swtches?

If so......my suggestion. if you don't want to replace the 20A with a
30A until your;e sure.

Turn the breaker off, remove the wall switch from the circuit, wire
nut the wires to "bypass" the switch.

Turn the breaker back on & see if it still trips.

I used to have small oscillating fan with a plastic housing & two
prong plug.
Switching speeds or turning the fan off would trip many of my GFI's (~
2008 units) but not all.

Perhaps the problem is the GFCI portion of the breaker is too
sensitve?

How hard would it be to rework the circuit to have a regular breaker &
a GFI at the switch box? (much more convenient to reset)

cheers
Bob

A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.


*The manufacturer requires a 30 amp circuit. Therefore you should have a 30
amp breaker. You could try giving them a call to hear their response. I
would put an ammeter on the line to see what it is actually drawing. Is
there a built-in heater on this tub?

On Jan 19, 8:20*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V * * 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient *for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

*The manufacturer requires a 30 amp circuit. Therefore you should have a 30
amp breaker. *You could try giving them a call to hear their response. *I
would put an ammeter on the line to see what it is actually drawing. *Is
there a built-in heater on this tub?

I don't know about the heater. I'll have to ask the owner.

I'll get back to you.

On Jan 19, 11:47*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 19, 8:20*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V * * 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient *for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

*The manufacturer requires a 30 amp circuit. Therefore you should have a 30
amp breaker. *You could try giving them a call to hear their response.. *I
would put an ammeter on the line to see what it is actually drawing. *Is
there a built-in heater on this tub?

I don't know about the heater. I'll have to ask the owner.

I'll get back to you.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Switch to a 30 amp after you make sure that the circuit has 10 guage
wire on it. Start up current is more than the run current. The
heater would explain why the manfacturer calls for a 30 amp circuiit.
If the wire is 12 guage and the run is short you might be able to find
a 25amp gfci and could get away with that.

On Jan 20, 10:55*am, wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:07:56 -0800 (PST), jamesgangnc





wrote:
On Jan 19, 11:47 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 19, 8:20 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

*The manufacturer requires a 30 amp circuit. Therefore you should have a 30
amp breaker. You could try giving them a call to hear their response.. I
would put an ammeter on the line to see what it is actually drawing. Is
there a built-in heater on this tub?

I don't know about the heater. I'll have to ask the owner.

I'll get back to you.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Switch to a 30 amp after you make sure that the circuit has 10 guage
wire on it. *Start up current is more than the run current. *The
heater would explain why the manfacturer calls for a 30 amp circuiit.
If the wire is 12 guage and the run is short you might be able to find
a 25amp gfci and could get away with that.

If this is just the motor load, it still would not be unusual to have
30a O/C protection for a 16a motor.
The code says that can be up to 250% of FLA. (40a)
I don't want to make your head hurt but the code also says you could
do this all on 14ga wire if this is only a motor load.
That is a common question on the inspector test.
It gets more complicated if this is a mixed motor and non-motor load.
As long as he really has 10ga wire it is a slam dunk, put in the 30a
breaker the installation instruction call for and the load doesn't
matter. They may not have that breaker at the Home Depot but they are
available.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Seems unlikely that a "hot" tub doesn't have a heater.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!


I agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--

In article
,
jamesgangnc wrote:

Seems unlikely that a "hot" tub doesn't have a heater.

It's not a "hot tub," despite the thread title. It's a whirlpool bathtub.

On Jan 20, 12:14*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*jamesgangnc wrote:
Seems unlikely that a "hot" tub doesn't have a heater.

It's not a "hot tub," despite the thread title. It's a whirlpool bathtub.

True. My error. It's a whirlpool, no heater.

On Jan 20, 11:56*am, bud-- wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V * * 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient *for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

I *agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 20, 11:56 am, wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

I agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

OH, my, sounds like the tub may be unsafe to use.
Motor is usually rated by HP. Amperage depends on the efficiency of
motor. Higher efficiency motor saves energy.

A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

I agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.



*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).

How about posting those pictures?

On Jan 21, 9:22*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

I agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. *A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).

How about posting those pictures?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I didn't think the code had hard rules about wire color. Some green
tape on the ends would help the next guy to work on it.

On Jan 21, 9:22*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

I agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. *A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).

How about posting those pictures?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was shown hardcopies printed from his cell phone, so I don't have
links. He'd have to send them to me or post them. I'll see what he
says.

I had already told told him to mark the Reds with Green tape before he
puts it back together.

The rest of that particular installation looks fine. It's really
nothing more than a typical switched circuit in a 30 YO house, but
with the wrong colored wires being used. My guess is that the
contractor (or whomever) had some 10/3 wire lying around and was to
lazy/cheap to go buy some 10/2 w/ground for this single installation.

I did see some other things in the panel box that caught my eye
(ganged breakers, etc) that he doesn't know what they control. He says
he has a stove receptacle that he doesn't use, so that might be one of
them (Black to one breaker, White marked with Black tape to the
other). His basement ceiling is finished so visually tracing wires is
out.

I offered to stop over this weekend with my meter, etc. and see if we
can't get his box lable correctly so he knows what he's got.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:22 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.
(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)
The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.
Here are some more details and a few questions.
The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.
On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:
230V / 115V 8A / 16A
There is a another label that says:
"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."
The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.
So here are my questions:
Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?
If so, why does it trip once and then work?
If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.
Thanks!
I agree with John and gfretwell.
I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.
Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.
Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.
If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)
The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.
--
bud--- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).

How about posting those pictures?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I didn't think the code had hard rules about wire color. Some green
tape on the ends would help the next guy to work on it.

Green tape certainly would help.

No mention of ground wires. From Derby it sounds like Romex was used -
any Romex available for a long time has had a ground wire.

As for the NEC, _in general_:
- ground wires #6 and smaller have be green or bare. They can be
tape-marked at the ends if larger than #6.
- neutral wires #6 and smaller have to be white. Again, they can be tape
marked at the ends if over #6.

It is not that hard to have (or get) green or white wire in sizes
through #6.

The other magic color is orange. If there is a high-leg delta 3-phase
system, orange is used for the high leg. Else it can be used for anything.

--
bud--

On Jan 21, 10:52*am, bud-- wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:22 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.
(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)
The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.
Here are some more details and a few questions.
The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.
On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:
230V / 115V 8A / 16A
There is a another label that says:
"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."
The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.
So here are my questions:
Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?
If so, why does it trip once and then work?
If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.
Thanks!
I agree with John and gfretwell.
I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.
Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.
Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.
If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)
The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.
--
bud--- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. *A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).

How about posting those pictures?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I didn't think the code had hard rules about wire color. *Some green
tape on the ends would help the next guy to work on it.

Green tape certainly would help.

No mention of ground wires. From Derby it sounds like Romex was used -
any Romex available for a long time has had a ground wire.

As for the NEC, _in general_:
- ground wires #6 and smaller have be green or bare. They can be
tape-marked at the ends if larger than #6.
- neutral wires #6 and smaller have to be white. Again, they can be tape
marked at the ends if over #6.

It is not that hard to have (or get) green or white wire in sizes
through #6.

The other magic color is orange. If there is a high-leg delta 3-phase
system, orange is used for the high leg. Else it can be used for anything..

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

- "ground wires #6 and smaller have be green or bare. They can be
tape-marked at the ends if larger than #6. "

By that, are you saying that using the Red from a 10/3 w/o ground
length of romex as a ground wire is not permissible even if it is
marked?

I just want make sure that I'm going in the right direction when you
use "larger" and "smaller" in relation to the numbers.

(I know how the numbers work, I just want to make sure I understand
what you are saying)

On Jan 21, 9:48*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:22*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:





A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.

(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)

The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.

Here are some more details and a few questions.

The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.

On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:

230V / 115V 8A / 16A

There is a another label that says:

"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."

The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.

So here are my questions:

Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?

If so, why does it trip once and then work?

If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.

Thanks!

I agree with John and gfretwell.

I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.

Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.

Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.

If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)

The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks to all.

As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.

As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.

So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:

The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.

I'm fine with all that.

However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.

At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.

Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:

There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.

Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.

*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. *A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).

How about posting those pictures?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was shown hardcopies printed from his cell phone, so I don't have
links. He'd have to send them to me or post them. I'll see what he
says.

I had already told told him to mark the Reds with Green tape before he
puts it back together.

The rest of that particular installation looks fine. It's really
nothing more than a typical switched circuit in a 30 YO house, but
with the wrong colored wires being used. My guess is that the
contractor (or whomever) had some 10/3 wire lying around and was to
lazy/cheap to go buy some 10/2 w/ground for this single installation.

I did see some other things in the panel box that caught my eye
(ganged breakers, etc) that he doesn't know what they control. He says
he has a stove receptacle that he doesn't use, so that might be one of
them (Black to one breaker, White marked with Black tape to the
other). His basement ceiling is finished so visually tracing wires is
out.

I offered to stop over this weekend with my meter, etc. and see if we
can't get his box lable correctly so he knows what he's got.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Am I the only one here that thinks a 1 1/2hp, 16A motor requiring a
30A
breaker for a mere whirpool tub in a bathroom is odd? Does it whirl
the water across the house?

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 21, 10:52 am, bud-- wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:22 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
A friend is having trouble with a GFCI breaker tripping when he turns
on the swtich for his whirlpool tub. It's not a "new" problem as it's
been happening since he moved in 5 years ago.
(This is the GFCI breaker that I asked about yesterday when I wanted
to know if you could tell what caused it to trip - a fault or
overcurrent)
The main symptom is that when he first turns on the wall switch and
the breaker trips. He goes to the basement, resets the breaker, flips
the wall switch again and the tub powers up and runs fine. This is a
consistent symptom. He hasn't run any tests to see how long between
uses he has to let everything "rest" before the initial trip will
occur, so that is an unknown.
Here are some more details and a few questions.
The circuit in question is a dedicated 115V circuit on a 20A breaker
with what my friend believes is 10 gauge wire. I haven't looked at it,
but he said that he has both 12 and 14 gauge wire at home and the wire
to the tub is larger than both of them.
On the tub motor there is one label that gives the voltage and
amperage specs:
230V / 115V 8A / 16A
There is a another label that says:
"This device must be used with a switch sufficient for a 1 1/2 HP
motor. A 30 Amp electrical supply is required."
The wall switch is rated for 30A, but as noted earlier, the breaker is
a 20A GFCI.
So here are my questions:
Is the 20A breaker the (obvious) problem?
If so, why does it trip once and then work?
If the motor is rated at 16A @ 115V, why is a 30A circuit required? If
it's for startup surges, then isn't a 30A breaker too big for steady-
state operation? It seems to me that a lot can go wrong between the
16A the motor draws under steady-state operation and the 30A required
to trip the breaker.
Thanks!
I agree with John and gfretwell.
I expect the 30A requirement is to start the motor. A motor can
momentarily draw 6x the rated current when it starts. A 20A breaker can
carry a momentary overload - this overload appears to trip it. Heaters,
if any, add to the problem.
Motor circuits have different rules than ordinary branch circuits.
Overload protection for the motor is commonly a "thermal protector" in
the motor. (Also commonly a "motor starter" with overload protection.)
The overload protection for the branch circuit is at the load end of the
circuit. The breaker is for short circuit protection of the circuit. The
rating of the breaker has to be large enough to start the motor. The
breaker may, on some cases, be significantly larger than the rating of
the wires.
Garden variety AC wall switches (not AC-DC) can be used for motor loads
up to 80% of their amp rating (up to 2HP). The 30A switch complies and
is not likely the problem.
If the manufacturer says a 30A circuit is required (which the
manufacturer did) the NEC makes that an installation requirement. The
20A breaker is a code violation. (It is likely a lot cheaper than a 30A
GFCI.)
The fix is likely to change the 20A breaker to a 30A GFCI that should
have been installed in the first place.
--
bud--- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks to all.
As long as we're chatting about code violations, my friend (co-worker)
was trying to explain the mix of Black, Red, White and ground wires
that he found in the switch box.
As we were talking on the phone and he was explaining what color was
connected to what, it didn't make any sense to me. I'm fairly familiar
with simple residential wiring but motors, 220, etc. are just a tad
outside of my experience. Even given that, the wireing configuration
that he was describing just didn't make sense. He said he would take
some pictures and bring them work.
So I'm looking at the pictures of the switch box the next day and
here's what I see:
The white wire from the source is nutted to the white wire to the
tub.
The black wire from the source is attached to the switch as is the
black wire to the tub.
I'm fine with all that.
However, the Red wire from the source is nutted to the Red wire to the
tub. That seemed wierd.
At first I thought that something at the tub was always "hot" and that
maybe the switch just controlled the motor.
Then he showed me a picture of the breaker box and there it was, clear
as day:
There was a lone Red wire attached to the grounding bar. He showed me
a picture of the motor connections and there it was again: The Red
wire was attached to the Green wire on the motor.
Whoever pulled the wires used the Red as the ground wire.
*I have seen the red wire used a number of times as a ground not only in
residential, but in commercial installations as well. A simple fix is to
apply some green tape, however I am now questioning the entire installation
because of these two serious violations (Breaker size and red ground).
How about posting those pictures?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I didn't think the code had hard rules about wire color. Some green
tape on the ends would help the next guy to work on it.
Green tape certainly would help.

No mention of ground wires. From Derby it sounds like Romex was used -
any Romex available for a long time has had a ground wire.

As for the NEC, _in general_:
- ground wires #6 and smaller have be green or bare. They can be
tape-marked at the ends if larger than #6.
- neutral wires #6 and smaller have to be white. Again, they can be tape
marked at the ends if over #6.

It is not that hard to have (or get) green or white wire in sizes
through #6.

The other magic color is orange. If there is a high-leg delta 3-phase
system, orange is used for the high leg. Else it can be used for anything.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

- "ground wires #6 and smaller have be green or bare. They can be
tape-marked at the ends if larger than #6. "

By that, are you saying that using the Red from a 10/3 w/o ground
length of romex as a ground wire is not permissible even if it is
marked?

I just want make sure that I'm going in the right direction when you
use "larger" and "smaller" in relation to the numbers.

(I know how the numbers work, I just want to make sure I understand
what you are saying)

Yes, re-marking a #10 wire (green tape or bare) is a code violation
(250.119).

Where could you get 10/3 romex without ground in the last 20? years. Is
there a ground wire, with the red wire used as a second ground wire?

Inspectors can make reasonable accommodations in applying the code. If
the romex had no ground, stripping or taping could be reasonable. Or
reasonable given what is there now. (If stripped carefully at
installation you wouldn't see any red insulation). Using a red wire for
ground is not reasonable.

--
bud--