notbob wrote:

On 2011-01-04, Sjouke Burry wrote:

Well, that leaves out M$.....

Apparently, M$ is a "real OS", since Pete is using it to post to this
group. Really.

nb

Sorry boopie, just because I don't care for your beloved Linux doesn't
mean I like M$.

notbob wrote:

On 2011-01-04, Pete C. wrote:

No, clearly you don't get it. I said nothing about feeling
"real".....

"All the "real" OSes...."

nb --keepin' it "real"

Try "enterprise class commercial OSes that originated as such from a
disciplined professional development team".

On 2011-01-05, Pete C. wrote:

Try "enterprise class commercial OSes that originated as such from a
disciplined professional development team".

I have tried them. Solaris, Unixware, HP-UX, etc. I changed
to Linux. I have no inordinate fear of OSs that are not locked into
some imagined rigid team hierarchy. If I want discipline, I'll get a
domitrix. I'd rather have the free flow of ideas that allow more than
one choice. Apparently, that sort of freedom intimidates you.

nb

notbob wrote:

On 2011-01-05, Pete C. wrote:

Try "enterprise class commercial OSes that originated as such from a
disciplined professional development team".

I have tried them. Solaris, Unixware, HP-UX, etc. I changed
to Linux. I have no inordinate fear of OSs that are not locked into
some imagined rigid team hierarchy. If I want discipline, I'll get a
domitrix. I'd rather have the free flow of ideas that allow more than
one choice. Apparently, that sort of freedom intimidates you.

nb

Apparently you have difficulty comprehending that your "free flow of
ideas" and "disciplined professional development team" are not at odds.
You also seem to think that the only valid choice among your claimed
"more than one choice" is your beloved Linux.

On 2011-01-05, Pete C. wrote:


You also seem to think that the only valid choice among your claimed
"more than one choice" is your beloved Linux.

No doubt about it.

For example, I don't jes get one desktop on Slackware Linux, I get
six. I don't get just one set of options/flags in CLI commands, I get
2 or 3 (gnu, trad unix, posix). I don't get one shell, I get half a
dozen. In fact, I have a choice of not just a few Linix OSs but
hundreds. Seems too much choice scares you. You want a fixed,
uniform, documented to the teeth, version of unix that is locked into
some corporate straight jacket created by "disciplined" mgrs and
paranoid lawyers with a corporate logo attached. How that translates
into "professional", while Linux, which now dominates internet servers
and is becoming more and ubiquitous every day, is not, must remain
your own peculiar perception.

I have or still use 'em all. Windows, BSDs, Linux, Unix, and have no
bizarre phobias about which is actually professional or not. That I
prefer Linux for everyday use is only that, a preference, not some
queer obsession dictated by some perceived organizational structure I
believe to be behind it or some weird notion about how it "feels".
The only thing I "feel" is the keyboard and my only requirement is the
OS does the job I want it to do. All the rest is silly hocus-pocus.

nb

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:26:12 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:12:11 -0600, Hell Toupee
wrote:


I'm glad you learned it. I build my own, so I don't shop for
off-the-shelf desktop pcs for myself. OTOH, they make sense for a
significant proportion of the home user market - those people who
pretty much just surf the web, do email, do a little bit of word
processing and other low-level tasks. Even so, there are far, far
better buys on the market than Dells.

I fix pcs on the side and the most aggravating ones to deal with are
the positively ancient pcs - ones so slow they take fifteen or twenty
minutes to boot. They have software and hardware conflicts due to the
age of the machine, and they get infested with malware because the
pc's protective software is too old to be updated, or they never used
it in the first place. Trying to convince those owners that it is way
past time to replace the pc is usually futile, because: they paid
twelve hundred bucks for that (primitive) pc back in 1999. And that's
more than they paid for their refrigerator, by damn, and they've had
the fridge for twenty-five years, so the pc should be good for at
least as long!

I describe these dinosaurs as "legacy machines" on my fee list, and
charge a surcharge for working on them _because_ they're so slow, and
time is money, after all. It still just kills me how many people are
willing to spend well over a hundred bucks to keep a dinosaur going
when they can get a new and much, much better box off the shelf for as
little as $300.

Crazy stuff. I build my own too. You must have incredible patience
to deal with your customers. Hope you don't do much work over the
phone.
Every time I walk through PC issues on the phone with family members,
I lose it at least once.

--Vic


My mother (my main support caller) got a Win7 machine when her old XP
one died (turns out it was from that capacitor leaking problem). Since
I have a Win7 box also, support has become very simple. There is a
built in utility (find it by searching for Remote Assistance). Mom
emails me the Invitation that is produced, reads me the 12-15
character check code, and I'm into her machine. It really couldn't get
any easier. It's better than the old PC Anywhere and saves my
remaining hair.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:01:03 -0600, Hell Toupee
wrote:

On 1/4/2011 12:12 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jan 4, 2:43 am, wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message

news
Throw it away and buy a mac, say g'bye to problems.

I run PCs, my wife runs Macs, she's had about as many problems as
I've had,
both with software and hardware. In fact within the past year we've
both
had machines die completely dead with DOA motherboards, requiring the
purchase of new computers. Apple might have better customer
support, but I
don't see their product as being inherently more trouble-free.

"In fact within the past year we've both had machines die
completely dead with DOA motherboards, requiring the purchase of new
computers."

DOA - Dead On Arrival - motherboards required the *purchase* of new
machines?

No warranty coverage?
Hmmm,
Maybe power coming into the house is not good?

More likely it was the bad cap problem that plagued the electronics
industry several years back. It was an exciting tale of industrial
espionage, with painful consequences for a lot of electronics parts
manufacturers.

A Taiwanese company had developed a new dielectric for capacitors,
enabling still smaller and more powerful capacitors to be
manufactured. This was a huge breakthrough. The Red Chinese persuaded
one of the scientists who'd worked on the dielectric development to
defect and bring the formula with him. He did, and Chinese factories
soon began turning out tons of cheaper, smaller, more powerful
capacitors. The market was quick to snap them up. Only problem was ...
the scientist had gotten part of the formula wrong. And, after a few
years, the dielectric became unstable and the caps began blowing up,
rendering circuit boards in all kinds of electronics unworkable.

As you can imagine, this created all kinds of warranty issues for the
electronics manufacturers, most of whom were quick to disclaim much in
the way of warranty coverage. Some people just replaced the boards or
cards, or bought new pcs. Others actually paid to have the bad caps
replaced on their mainboards or cards. The problem wasn't confined to
pcs, but that's where the bulk of the caps ended up.

I had two old pcs come in last year that had recently blown caps on
their graphics cards - same problem. If you happen to have the pc
running and suddenly hear a loud SNAP, check your mainboard and
graphics/sound cards. The board won't necessarily fail right away.
I've opened functioning pcs and found a couple blown caps on their
mainboards.

It's way out of warranty for those motherboards that died. I mentioned
this briefly in another post, but I had built a PC for my mother using
an Asus MB (A7N8X I think). After many years, she started having
various complaints, such as long hesitations, just plain slowness,
things working one day and not the next. She's in FL and I'm in NY so
I'm trying to troublehoot this by phone. Finally I told her to take it
to some local guy because I had no idea what was wrong.

He did a couple of things, then tried replacing the PSU. After that it
wouldn't boot at all. He felt bad but there was nothing more to do.
She got a new Win7 machine and plugged the old drive in so she could
get most of the data over (with my help of course).

I went to visit her last year and she had saved the old machine so I
took it apart for spare parts, and I saw the capacitors and just
groaned. That was why I couldn't figure out what was wrong. The local
guy should have spotted it but I guess he wasn't too good. Yup, death
by capacitor.

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:35:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 4, 1:12*pm, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 1/4/2011 11:40 AM, DGDevin wrote:


I just went through that exercise, and there is essentially zero
money to be saved if you buy all the parts and assemble it yourself.
Just buying the hardware, ie MB, CPU, memory, chasis, etc on Ebay,
from God
knows who, puts you you close to what you could get it from HP or
similar already integrated, software loaded, and tested. Integrate
it yourself and
if it doesn't work right, or there are compatibility issues, then
what? And then if you
need Windows, unless you already have it, that's another $110. By
comparison, an
HP comes pre-loaded with Win 7 and limited version of Microsoft Office
for free, which is good
enough for most people. For another $100, you could get the full
version. 3 years of Norton, $30.

Add it all up and I fail to see the point to building your own, unless
you're
putting together a high end gaming system or similar. But for the
typical $500 to
$1000 system, it makes no sense to me. It's gettin more and more like
building
your own HDTV instead of buying one.


One thing everyone forgets in the DIY vs store bought machine debate
is the PSU. They use cheap crap power supplies in most of the
commodity machines and that uses an enormous amount of power over
time. I once tested a machine with a typical PSU with one of those
Save-A-Watt type things and compared it to an expensive Seasonic PSU
that I was putting into my new box which runs 24/7. Of course it
varies by how much you leave your PC on and what electricty costs in
your area, but all you really need to do is feel the hot air pushed
out by the cheap PSU compared to the cool output of a quality PSU.

I figured out that the difference between that $25 piece of crap and
my $120 Seasonic would pay for itself within 9 months or so. I don't
have the numbers anymore but it as quite significant, significant
enough so that I tried to get my congressman to stick a minimum
efficiency rating for computer PSUs into the energy bill that passed
Congress a few years back. But it would raise the price of the typical
PC by, I guess $50 or so. It didn't get in of course.

So, when you compare the price of buying vs building, or at least
ordering one to spec, don't forget the price of actually running the
PC.

On 2011-01-05, dgk wrote:

I figured out that the difference between that $25 piece of crap and
my $120 Seasonic would pay for itself within 9 months or so. I don't
have the numbers anymore but it as quite significant.....

I don't doubt it. I've run across an interesting feature. I have two
used Sony VAIOs, both old P4s w/ Asus mobos. The older will run
constantly as older computers do. The newer one not only has the HDDs
wind down after long periods of non-use, but the P/S fans, too. Is
this feature common now? Does it have a specific name?

nb

notbob wrote:

On 2011-01-05, dgk wrote:

I figured out that the difference between that $25 piece of crap and
my $120 Seasonic would pay for itself within 9 months or so. I don't
have the numbers anymore but it as quite significant.....

I don't doubt it. I've run across an interesting feature. I have two
used Sony VAIOs, both old P4s w/ Asus mobos. The older will run
constantly as older computers do. The newer one not only has the HDDs
wind down after long periods of non-use, but the P/S fans, too. Is
this feature common now? Does it have a specific name?

"Power Management" or "Energy Management", been around for years on
higher end stuff and as with everything it trickles down to lower end
stuff.

On 1/5/2011 8:59 AM, notbob wrote:
On 2011-01-05, wrote:

I figured out that the difference between that $25 piece of crap and
my $120 Seasonic would pay for itself within 9 months or so. I don't
have the numbers anymore but it as quite significant.....

I don't doubt it. I've run across an interesting feature. I have two
used Sony VAIOs, both old P4s w/ Asus mobos. The older will run
constantly as older computers do. The newer one not only has the HDDs
wind down after long periods of non-use, but the P/S fans, too. Is
this feature common now? Does it have a specific name?

Some hardware manufacturers include software on their machines that
allow users to tweak power management settings. On my Toshiba laptop,
it's called the eco-utility. However, similar adjustments can be made
within Windows as well. Win 7 default power management settings can
occasionally create issues with certain older hardware that is not
(quite) Win 7 ready. A very common example of this is the hard drive
sleep setting causing the internet connection to shut down. Certain
older routers will not recover from this after it happens, so that the
user has to reboot the pc in order to restore the internet connection.
The solution is to disable the sleep function, or delay its
implementation - or just buy a current router and be done with it.

On 1/4/2011 1:36 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2011-01-04, Percival P. wrote:

Apart from notebooks, I haven't bought an off-the-shelf computer since 1986.

People are usually unaware the inside of your typcial desktop computer
is not much more complex than your old college days component stereo
system or your current entertainment center. Just some parts you plug
into other parts. Pretty silly to buy a whole new box when you old
case, pwr supply, HDD, is still perfectly fine and just a mobo/cpu/ram
ugrade is usually sufficient. oh well, different strokes.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. Hardware and software are
constantly changing, which eventually leads to compatibility issues
between newer and older parts or programs. Hardware, for example:
Cases are designed to accommodate mainboards of a specific size and
shape - and those continue to change. CPUs have to be matched to
compatible mainboards. Power supplies have to fit the case and the
power needs of the boards running in the box. Hard drives have changed
size (thickness) somewhat, which may be an issue when trying to fit a
new drive into an old slot. Connections have changed - you can't just
plug an IDE drive into a SATA socket or vice-versa; you'll need an
adapter. Contemporary graphics cards won't even fit into old slots.
And, of course, RAM has changed tremendously and is not at all
interchangeable.

What this means in the long run: the older the pc, the less available
are the replacement parts *and the more they cost*. SDRAM nowadays is
easily two-three times the price of DD3, with a fraction of its capacity.

There comes a time when it simply does not make sense from a financial
and performance standpoint to keep putting money into a dinosaur -- no
matter how much you paid for it in the first place.

On 1/5/2011 8:59 AM, notbob wrote:
On 2011-01-05, wrote:

I figured out that the difference between that $25 piece of crap and
my $120 Seasonic would pay for itself within 9 months or so. I don't
have the numbers anymore but it as quite significant.....

I don't doubt it. I've run across an interesting feature. I have two
used Sony VAIOs, both old P4s w/ Asus mobos. The older will run
constantly as older computers do. The newer one not only has the HDDs
wind down after long periods of non-use, but the P/S fans, too. Is
this feature common now? Does it have a specific name?

nb

Quite often you will see it in your BIOS and if enabled in the BIOS, the
OS power management software app will control the fans. The power
supplies will usually have a label indicating a smart fan along with a
connector and wires for a spot on the motherboard. I'm running XP and
it's called "APM" Advanced Power Management. You will see specs for a
motherboard and/or power supply listing APM support.

TDD

On 2011-01-05, Hell Toupee wrote:

are the replacement parts *and the more they cost*. SDRAM nowadays is
easily two-three times the price of DD3, with a fraction of its capacity.

Wow! Good point I was not aware of, thinking I could pick up old
SDRAM on ebay for cheap.

There comes a time when it simply does not make sense from a financial
and performance standpoint to keep putting money into a dinosaur -- no
matter how much you paid for it in the first place.

I never actually upgrade relics, but am not adverse to picking up a
newer faster used box for peanuts.

nb

On 1/4/2011 12:35 PM, wrote:

I just went through that exercise, and there is essentially zero
money to be saved if you buy all the parts and assemble it yourself.
Just buying the hardware, ie MB, CPU, memory, chasis, etc on Ebay,
from God
knows who, puts you you close to what you could get it from HP or
similar already integrated, software loaded, and tested.

I wouldn't bother with a custom build if one's needs were met by a
basic build, and if there was no expectation of a need to upgrade or
expand in the near future. In that case, an off-the-shelf model would
do nicely.

On the other hand, if one has specific needs that must be met, or has
hardware preferences, then the ability to tailor one's pc to one's
needs _and_ budget is a definite plus. Not to mention the pleasures of
a clean install without any crapware.

Integrate
it yourself and
if it doesn't work right, or there are compatibility issues, then
what?

I've never had that problem. If you have the slightest idea of what
you're doing, you won't. If you don't, well, DIY is an excellent way
to learn more about pcs, if you are willing to risk encountering some
issues and having to work them out as you learn. Heck, that's the way
a lot of us on alt.home.repair prefer to learn.


And then if you
need Windows, unless you already have it, that's another $110.

Dude. You don't know how to shop. Actually I figured that out when you
mentioned ebay. There are far better online sources for hardware and
software. If you prefer to buy locally, generally the small computer
stores will have much better selections and prices than most big chain
stores (with the possible exception of Frys and Microcenter), since
their customers are more knowledgeable than the run-of-the-mill pc user.

It's like buying parts for the kitchen sink. The average home owner
will go to a big box store like HD or Lowes. Those who are a little
more savvy may shop at their local hardware store. Those who really
know about quality, selection, and price will hit a plumbing supply
house.

an
HP comes pre-loaded with Win 7 and limited version of Microsoft Office
for free, which is good
enough for most people. For another $100, you could get the full
version.

Or you could install the copy you had bought for your previous pc.
Price: free.
Or, you know the options allowing you to legally acquire a copy of the
latest version for less than $100. Or, you purchase another version or
brand that better fits your needs. Or you buy a multiple-pc license
for that same software and pay about the same price as that
single-user license. You know what the options are, where the casual
user does not.

3 years of Norton, $30.

You probably won't buy anti-virus protection once you know about all
the excellent options out there for free. Or you'll buy a product that
better meets your needs - which the off-the-shelf pc doesn't have on it.

On Jan 4, 3:09*pm, LSMFT wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:
Folks, could you recommend a computer NG where I could seek help for
several probs? *My guru has moved, and I am bereft....and need to
avert a crash.

I searched the computer NG lists, but did not find what I need. *The
NGs seem highly specialized.

Any help appreciated.

HB

Try alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt, lots of talented computer geeks in
there.

Thanks to you and the other kind members who posted sources of help.
I see my mistake: I originally searched the NG HIERARCHY for my needs,
but did not think of searching FORUMS. So I will try a few of those &
see if my 3 q's can get answered.

Somebody on this thread suggestged I might post the probs. on this NG,
but that might be an abuse of the OT factor. Still...if I get
desperate...G

BTW: This is a classic example of thread drift. At a certain point
it took off into a discussion of OSs. When I was on Agent's (former)
NGs, the convention was to change the name of the thread once it
veered off course. e.g.. "Compare OSs (was Computer NGs),"

Dunno if that works in other free-standing Email clients, much less in
a Google-type NG.

Inquiring minds...

HB

On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 09:07:11 -0500, dgk wrote:



My mother (my main support caller) got a Win7 machine when her old XP
one died (turns out it was from that capacitor leaking problem). Since
I have a Win7 box also, support has become very simple. There is a
built in utility (find it by searching for Remote Assistance). Mom
emails me the Invitation that is produced, reads me the 12-15
character check code, and I'm into her machine. It really couldn't get
any easier. It's better than the old PC Anywhere and saves my
remaining hair.

I'm curious about what problems you would solve by remotely entering a
Win7 system. Seems to be a solid system.
OTOH, it has a decent backup/restore utility, so just going in to do
backups on a regular basis would allow you to do a restore if your Mom
got caught by a malware problem.
Remote is no help for hardware failures.
What I did with my dad (he's in Florida) when I set him up with his
first PC was leave him a Ghost floppy and an image on a second drive.
He actually used it once with me coaching him on the phone, then got
support from PC savvy family down there after that.
It's amazing what people can do with PC's now. Even with no concept
of how the disk drives or file systems are organized, they install all
kinds of software and steal music and movies, make tons of DVD's of
same, email and facebook photos, etc, etc.
When I see all the crap on my Dad's computer, I kind of get sick.
It must have every damn toolbar ever created on it, on multiple
browsers.
They have cable, but also still have AOL because of something related
to mail and some game my stepmom likes to play.
Buzzers and dings sounding off, crap popping up on the screen.
But it doesn't bother them.
Anyway, I'm glad I'm not maintaining their PC, and they should be glad
that my BIL the PC repairman lives right across the street from them.
He's a real saint, he is.

--Vic

In ,
notbob typed:
On 2011-01-04, Pete C. wrote:

As for customer support, in a couple decades of running
multiple Windows machines I have not needed any customer
support from Microsoft until a few months ago:

I've run Windows for the last 10+ yrs and gui shells before that. Never
had to call anyone. More than enough help on the internet.
Linux still doesn't have the drivers nor some applications I need. I've
come to the conclusion it never will. Want to switch, but cannot. Linux is
OK for newbies but not so much for switching to from mature, working
production machines.

In ster.com,
Pete C. typed:
notbob wrote:

On 2011-01-04, Pete C. wrote:

.....the modest cost of Windows and Windows applications.
I also tend to be put off by the non-professional "feel"
of Linux.

Thanks. I haven't heard a computer related joke in awhile.

nb

Sorry, Linux does indeed have a non-professional "feel". I
may be biased a bit, since I've spent many years managing
enterprise class OSes.

In your opinion: There are nothing but opinions on newsgroups.

In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:

There are nothing but opinions on newsgroups.

Your opinion is noted.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:50:43 -0800, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
"Twayne" wrote:

There are nothing but opinions on newsgroups.

Your opinion is noted.

Some opinions are more opinionated than other opinions.

On Jan 5, 2:44*pm, Hell Toupee wrote:
On 1/4/2011 12:35 PM, wrote:

I just went through that exercise, and there is essentially zero
money to be saved if you buy all the parts and assemble it yourself.
Just buying the hardware, ie MB, CPU, memory, chasis, etc on Ebay,
from God
knows who, *puts you you close to what you could get it from HP or
similar already integrated, software loaded, and tested.

I wouldn't bother with a custom build if one's needs were met by a
basic build, and if there was no expectation of a need to upgrade or
expand in the near future. In that case, an off-the-shelf model would
do nicely.

On the other hand, if one has specific needs that must be met, or has
hardware preferences, then the ability to tailor one's pc to one's
needs _and_ budget is a definite plus. Not to mention the pleasures of
a clean install without any crapware.

* Integrate

it yourself and
if it doesn't work right, or there are compatibility issues, then
what?

I've never had that problem. If you have the slightest idea of what
you're doing, you won't.

So, there's zero chance that the MB you bought from place X and the
hard drive you bought from Y, and the memory you bought from Z will
be deffective? And where do you buy stuff? Do they just take
returns
on sensitive electrical eqpt, where you could cream it with a static
charge,
not to mention other way, with no questions asked?


If you don't, well, DIY is an excellent way
to learn more about pcs, if you are willing to risk encountering some
issues and having to work them out as you learn. Heck, that's the way
a lot of us on alt.home.repair prefer to learn.

Some people used to prefer building their own color TV from a kit of
parts from Heathkit too. If you want to do it because you enjoy it,
that's
fine. But putting together my own PC, only to have it cost me the
same as
what I can buy a box from HP or Dell, doesn't appeal to me.





And then if you

need Windows, unless you already have it, that's another $110.

Dude. You don't know how to shop. Actually I figured that out when you
mentioned ebay. There are far better online sources for hardware and
software. If you prefer to buy locally, generally the small computer
stores will have much better selections and prices than most big chain
stores (with the possible exception of Frys and Microcenter), since
their customers are more knowledgeable than the run-of-the-mill pc user.

So, tell us where to get a legitimate copy of Win7 cheap. I've seen
it for ~$100
As for buying locally, again screwing around with the local mom/pop
computer
stores to find out who has what and at what price, isn't an adventure
I need.




It's like buying parts for the kitchen sink. The average home owner
will go to a big box store like HD or Lowes. Those who are a little
more savvy may shop at their local hardware store. Those who really
know about quality, selection, and price will hit a plumbing supply
house.

So, just price out a system like this for us and show us where to get
the parts so cheap:

Intel I7-870, quad core
MB from a major mainsteam company
8GB DDR3 133 Ram
1.5 TB HD
CD
Avg video card
Keyboard/mouse
Multi format memory card reader
Win 7
Microsoft Office starter version, ability to get full version for
additonal $100
3 years Norton Internet Security
uATX chassis

How much?

I find it hard to believe that local computer shops are going to have
much better prices than
all the low cost guys selling stuff on Ebay, perhaps the most
competitive place on the planet.
Not that I think it's worth the risk or hassle of dealing with
either when I can buy a box for the
same money or less, with a warranty and support from a major PC
company.

If I had a relatively new system that had a component fail, I'd
definitely replace that by buying
just the component. But IMO, there is no significant cost advantage
to doing your own integration.
There are, however, a lot of very real potential problems that could
lead to aggravation and $$$.



an
HP comes pre-loaded with Win 7 and limited version of Microsoft Office
for free, which is good
enough for most people. * *For *another $100, you could get the full
version.

Or you could install the copy you had bought for your previous pc.
Price: free.

Don't have a previous version of Win 7, so let's compare Apples to
Apples.



Or, you know the options allowing you to legally acquire a copy of the
latest version for less than $100.

Show us how much less than $100 I can get a copy of Win 7 for.


Or, you purchase another version or
brand that better fits your needs.

Running Windows here, as is most of the world, so let's stick to
comparing
apples to apples. pun intended.



Or you buy a multiple-pc license
for that same software and pay about the same price as that
single-user license. You know what the options are, where the casual
user does not.

Great for an integrator, not of much use to 99% of us.





* *3 years of Norton, $30.

You probably won't buy anti-virus protection once you know about all
the excellent options out there for free. Or you'll buy a product that
better meets your needs - which the off-the-shelf pc doesn't have on it.

Norton Internet Security fits my needs perfectly and I'm very happy
with it.
Not at all convinced that there are free options that are better and
it's not worth
investigating, when I can get what has worked for me for $30 for 3
years, bundled
with a new PC.

On Fri, 7 Jan 2011 06:43:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:


Â* Integrate

it yourself and
if it doesn't work right, or there are compatibility issues, then
what?

I've never had that problem. If you have the slightest idea of what
you're doing, you won't.

So, there's zero chance that the MB you bought from place X and the
hard drive you bought from Y, and the memory you bought from Z will
be deffective? And where do you buy stuff? Do they just take
returns
on sensitive electrical eqpt, where you could cream it with a static
charge,
not to mention other way, with no questions asked?


I've built about a dozen PC's and got 1 bad component out of hundreds.
First one I built had a non-working MB keyboard controller.
They sent me a new one - no problem except I had to strip the box down
to get the MB out.
Maybe I've been lucky.
My impression about component returns is most are from people who
screw up.
Like you mentioned, zapping with static, but probably most because of
ham-handedness, and not doing the up front study work to ensure
component compatibility.
I feel for the retailers that have deal with this, but they price it
all in.
I only buy new/unopened components - just how I am.
Mostly from Newegg, but if their price is way off I go elsewhere.


If you don't, well, DIY is an excellent way
to learn more about pcs, if you are willing to risk encountering some
issues and having to work them out as you learn. Heck, that's the way
a lot of us on alt.home.repair prefer to learn.

Some people used to prefer building their own color TV from a kit of
parts from Heathkit too. If you want to do it because you enjoy it,
that's
fine. But putting together my own PC, only to have it cost me the
same as
what I can buy a box from HP or Dell, doesn't appeal to me.


Your call. I wouldn't be happy with them.
And mine don't cost the same as Dell or HP - they cost more.




And then if you

need Windows, unless you already have it, that's another $110.

Dude. You don't know how to shop. Actually I figured that out when you
mentioned ebay. There are far better online sources for hardware and
software. If you prefer to buy locally, generally the small computer
stores will have much better selections and prices than most big chain
stores (with the possible exception of Frys and Microcenter), since
their customers are more knowledgeable than the run-of-the-mill pc user.

So, tell us where to get a legitimate copy of Win7 cheap. I've seen
it for ~$100
As for buying locally, again screwing around with the local mom/pop
computer
stores to find out who has what and at what price, isn't an adventure
I need.




It's like buying parts for the kitchen sink. The average home owner
will go to a big box store like HD or Lowes. Those who are a little
more savvy may shop at their local hardware store. Those who really
know about quality, selection, and price will hit a plumbing supply
house.

So, just price out a system like this for us and show us where to get
the parts so cheap:

Intel I7-870, quad core
MB from a major mainsteam company
8GB DDR3 133 Ram
1.5 TB HD
CD
Avg video card
Keyboard/mouse
Multi format memory card reader.

Pretty much what I put together and am running now, except I7-920,
but you have to add case, PSU, DVD writer, floppy, and much better
than average video. Maybe $1500.
Nobody said it was cheap to get what you want.
And I'm always a few notches away from the bleeding edge.

Win 7
Microsoft Office starter version, ability to get full version for
additonal $100
3 years Norton Internet Security
uATX chassis

How much?


hehe. Depends on your "upgrade path."
But built-in software is a big advantage and good reason to go the big
box and buy a major brand.
There's a reason Bill Gates is filthy rich.

I find it hard to believe that local computer shops are going to have
much better prices than
all the low cost guys selling stuff on Ebay, perhaps the most
competitive place on the planet.

There's a difference between build-your-own and the local computer
shop. The local shops I've been in had shelves full of cheap
components, and I've also heard many unflattering reviews of boxes
built by them. You pay for what you get.
They can't compete with factory-made PC's and big retailers.
Their bread and butter should be fixing, though I have no direct
knowledge of them, and I'm sure some have managed to be profitable
doing PC builds.
Ebay is a crap shoot. Sometimes it has had competitive new computer
parts. I probably bought half a dozen new HP CD-writers off Ebay at
half the price of anywhere else about 10 years ago.
And a few new hard drives too, and about 6 ATX cases I liked.
I hardly look there anymore for anything computer related except
games. Too many suckers there willing to pay more than retail.
Wouldn't buy used electronics anywhere. My son just went through a
big hassle with a "hardly used, working fine" video card he bought on
Ebay. $+200 card. But Ebay got his money back.


Not that I think it's worth the risk or hassle of dealing with
either when I can buy a box for the
same money or less, with a warranty and support from a major PC
company.


When you build your own, you provide your own support.
Others can spend hours on the phone talking to Indians.
Think about it. Most who build their own have better than average
computer skills.

If I had a relatively new system that had a component fail, I'd
definitely replace that by buying
just the component.

Void your warranty?

But IMO, there is no significant cost advantage
to doing your own integration.
There are, however, a lot of very real potential problems that could
lead to aggravation and $$$.


Nobody said it's the right path for everybody.
If I didn't want to build mine, I'd just go to the store and buy one.
No big deal. Different strokes.

--Vic

On 01/07/11 01:01 pm, Vic Smith wrote:

huge snip

Nobody said it's the right path for everybody.
If I didn't want to build mine, I'd just go to the store and buy one.
No big deal. Different strokes.

If I get to the point where I can no longer build my own computers, I
know I won't go to the store and buy an HP/Dell/Compaq/eMachines. I'll
do my research into components and get the local computer store (or my
son) to build one to my specifications.

Perce

On Jan 7, 1:01*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jan 2011 06:43:51 -0800 (PST), wrote:
* Integrate

it yourself and
if it doesn't work right, or there are compatibility issues, then
what?

I've never had that problem. If you have the slightest idea of what
you're doing, you won't.

So, there's zero chance that the MB you bought from place X and the
hard drive you bought from Y, and the memory you bought from Z will
be deffective? * *And where do you buy stuff? * Do they just take
returns
on sensitive electrical eqpt, where you could cream it with a static
charge,
not to mention other way, with no questions asked?

I've built about a dozen PC's and got 1 bad component out of hundreds.
First one I built had a non-working MB keyboard controller.
They sent me a new one - no problem except I had to strip the box down
to get the MB out.
Maybe I've been lucky.
My impression about component returns is most are from people who
screw up.
Like you mentioned, zapping with static, but probably most because of
ham-handedness, and not doing the up front study work to ensure
component compatibility.
I feel for the retailers that have deal with this, but they price it
all in.
I only buy new/unopened components - just how I am.
Mostly from Newegg, but if their price is way off I go elsewhere.



If you don't, well, DIY is an excellent way
to learn more about pcs, if you are willing to risk encountering some
issues and having to work them out as you learn. Heck, that's the way
a lot of us on alt.home.repair prefer to learn.

Some people used to prefer building their own color *TV from a kit of
parts from Heathkit too. * If you want to do it because you enjoy it,
that's
fine. * But putting together my own PC, only to have it cost me the
same as
what I can buy a box from HP or Dell, doesn't appeal to me.

Your call. *I wouldn't be happy with them.
And mine don't cost the same as Dell or HP - they cost more.







And then if you

need Windows, unless you already have it, that's another $110.

Dude. You don't know how to shop. Actually I figured that out when you
mentioned ebay. There are far better online sources for hardware and
software. If you prefer to buy locally, generally the small computer
stores will have much better selections and prices than most big chain
stores (with the possible exception of Frys and Microcenter), since
their customers are more knowledgeable than the run-of-the-mill pc user.