After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves.
It's an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements,
mostly concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to
this part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can
we get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?

Jeff

Jeff Thies wrote:

After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves.
It's an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements,
mostly concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Yes. It gives you more time before it freezes-- but better to
insulate the space where the pipe is. If you can slip some rigid
insulation between the cold outdoors and the pipe, it might be better.


Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

If they dripped icicles, then the bathroom was below freezing. Tell
them to leave the door open.


So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to
this part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can
we get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?


If it is as bad as I'm picturing it, start there. Stop the drafts.
With no insulation that house will breath more than enough to
eliminate the dangers of radon. Then insulate the basement walls
to the frost line. Then follow the pipes to the fixtures and stop
the heat loss on the cold side of the pipes.

What part of the world are you in. Anywhere north of NC probably has
about a 1 year payback on insulating a house. [and the way things
are going- maybe 'north of Miami] And if they pay taxes, Uncle Sam
is kicking in $1500 on insulation this year.

Jim

On 12/15/2010 9:18 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
Jeff wrote:

After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves.
It's an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements,
mostly concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Yes. It gives you more time before it freezes-- but better to
insulate the space where the pipe is. If you can slip some rigid
insulation between the cold outdoors and the pipe, it might be better.

Cheap enough.


Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

If they dripped icicles, then the bathroom was below freezing. Tell
them to leave the door open.


So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to
this part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can
we get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?


If it is as bad as I'm picturing it, start there. Stop the drafts.
With no insulation that house will breath more than enough to
eliminate the dangers of radon. Then insulate the basement walls
to the frost line.

What kind and how? Styro?

Then follow the pipes to the fixtures and stop
the heat loss on the cold side of the pipes.

What part of the world are you in.

Atlanta. Couple of girls. Huge sprawling house with additions that look
built from leftover construction materials.

Anywhere north of NC probably has
about a 1 year payback on insulating a house. [and the way things
are going- maybe 'north of Miami] And if they pay taxes, Uncle Sam
is kicking in $1500 on insulation this year.

Oh, I have been at this for years with them. There is no money up front
for insulation but there is for paying big bills not heating the place.

I think I'll seal up the basement.

Jeff


Jim

On 12/15/2010 8:45 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:
After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves. It's
an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements, mostly
concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to this
part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can we
get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?

Jeff


For starters, just to keep up, leave cabinet doors open so warm air can
circulate to the water lines. Also, in extremely cold weather, advice I
have seen is to leave faucets open slightly to keep water moving.

On Dec 15, 1:50*pm, "
wrote:
On 12/15/2010 8:45 AM, Jeff Thies wrote:





After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves. It's
an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements, mostly
concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to this
part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can we
get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?

Jeff

For starters, just to keep up, leave cabinet doors open so warm air can
circulate to the water lines. *Also, in extremely cold weather, advice I
have seen is to leave faucets open slightly to keep water moving.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Way too many variables here to give good advice. Was the house
heated? What temp
was it set too? Certainly there should not be outside air flowing
into the basement. It
isn't rocket science. One good opening that allows air to flow next
to a pipe will be enough
to freeze it. Don't know who's paying for heat, but it sounds like
some proper sealing and
insulation could save a lot of $$$ too.

"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves. It's
an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements, mostly
concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to this
part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can we get
just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The house is
huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement ventilation in
cold weather?

Jeff


Just correct me if I assume something wrong.

Old house, furnace with non-insulated ducts in the basement; never had a
pipe freeze in one of those 7 hours north of you.

Must be the draftiest basement in the south.

Pipes freezing in the bathroom? Do they have the heat turned on?

To be honest if you were not a regular, I would think this was a TROLL post.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

On Dec 15, 7:45*am, Jeff Thies wrote:
* *After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

* *What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves.
It's an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements,
mostly concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

* *Pipe insulation. *I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

* *Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

* *So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to
this part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can
we get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?

* *Jeff

Its a very old house, right, it is a new problem that didnt exist
until recently, it sounds like alot of maintenance has been neglected
and no upgrading has been done, the Money Pit. Ther is no simple one
answer.

On 12/15/2010 7:04 PM, Colbyt wrote:
"Jeff wrote in message
...
After making an emergency run to fix a friend's broken pipes, I'm
thinking what can be done so this won't cost me much more time and money.

What broke were bathroom sink lines, just below the cutoff valves. It's
an old house, with little insulation. Full unfinished basements, mostly
concrete floors. Copper plumbing.

Pipe insulation. I'm not sure this has any impact. Does it?

Water dripping. Seems like a good idea, but these were dripping until
they turned to icicles.

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to this
part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can we get
just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The house is
huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement ventilation in
cold weather?

Jeff


Just correct me if I assume something wrong.

Old house, furnace with non-insulated ducts in the basement; never had a
pipe freeze in one of those 7 hours north of you.

Old house, furnace currently not working. Series of electric space
heaters. Not a real old furnace. Just one that no one can figure out.


Must be the draftiest basement in the south.

Pipes freezing in the bathroom? Do they have the heat turned on?

Yes. So to speak. But it was in the low teens.

To be honest if you were not a regular, I would think this was a TROLL post.

I'm just trying to make the best of a really bad situation. They have no
money. So I'm going to throw some of my money and time at it. Lucky me.

I think I'll tackle basement(s) drafts and add some pipe insulation.
I've tried for years to get them to blow some insulation in the walls...
In fact I've never talked anyone into that.

Right now, I just want to make the biggest difference with the least
amount of my time and money.

My rental house has no insulation under floor, but it is fairly air
tight in the crawl space. The lost heat from the furnace heats the crawl
space and heats the floor also. Very comfortable. Minimal insulation in
the walls and ceiling. But it is very tight and very easy to heat. I'm
thinking where and how, is more important than how much. At least here.
And since how much costs...

Jeff

Jeff Thies wrote:

On 12/15/2010 9:18 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to
this part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can
we get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?


If it is as bad as I'm picturing it, start there. Stop the drafts.
With no insulation that house will breath more than enough to
eliminate the dangers of radon. Then insulate the basement walls
to the frost line.

What kind and how? Styro?

20yrs or so ago I had an extra roll of fiberglass insulation that I
was looking for a place to store. Then I looked in my basement at
my 24" thick fieldstone wall with frost on it [on the inside] and
decided to just cut 6' long bats and lay them on the stone from the
sill plate down. Gravity and friction held them in place. Some
of them did the job for 15 years before the wall was replaced with 10"
block.

Styro is a better insulator-- but if there are still drafts around it,
it doesn't do that much good. I have 2" on the outside now, down
to the footer. On the inside I have that foil faced bubble wrap.
Pretty good R value for 1/2" space.

I'll bet if you go down in that basement on a bright and sunny day,
and turn off the lights, you'll see some places to start. A few
cans of great stuff work well to stop the drafts.

-snip-

Oh, I have been at this for years with them. There is no money up front
for insulation but there is for paying big bills not heating the place.

Maybe you can sell them on the 'insulation is free this month' if they
pay income tax. You can buy a lot of insulation for $1500.

I just got rid of a 25 yr old furnace because the plenum was starting
to show signs of deterioration. But it was simple as all get out-
The youngsters who came to tune it up with their meters seemed to have
been flummoxed-- but it could be set by eye to 85% efficiency. Find
some old retired handyman who knows his way around a furnace & he
should be able to resurrect the old beast - or tell you it is a lost
cause.

From the looks of it- they'll need a furnace before the winter is
over.

Jim

On 12/16/2010 8:04 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
Jeff wrote:

On 12/15/2010 9:18 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-

So that leads me to thinking stopping basement drafts. The door to
this part of the basement was very badly sealed. How much tempering can
we get just by sealing basement air leaks? Is it worth the effort? The
house is huge. Should I even not worry about leaving some basement
ventilation in cold weather?


If it is as bad as I'm picturing it, start there. Stop the drafts.
With no insulation that house will breath more than enough to
eliminate the dangers of radon. Then insulate the basement walls
to the frost line.

What kind and how? Styro?

20yrs or so ago I had an extra roll of fiberglass insulation that I
was looking for a place to store. Then I looked in my basement at
my 24" thick fieldstone wall with frost on it [on the inside] and
decided to just cut 6' long bats and lay them on the stone from the
sill plate down. Gravity and friction held them in place. Some
of them did the job for 15 years before the wall was replaced with 10"
block.


I'm thinking...


Styro is a better insulator-- but if there are still drafts around it,
it doesn't do that much good. I have 2" on the outside now, down
to the footer. On the inside I have that foil faced bubble wrap.
Pretty good R value for 1/2" space.

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insul...500-sq-ft.aspx

500 SF for $100.

That would be easy to staple to the bottom of the rafters. The house has
several basements that were added as the house was expanded. I think
I'll insulate underfloor where the floor area is less than the wall space.


I'll bet if you go down in that basement on a bright and sunny day,
and turn off the lights, you'll see some places to start. A few
cans of great stuff work well to stop the drafts.

I've instructed them to do exactly that. The girls are good with crafts
(and art) and one of them fixed all my plaster in a couple rooms. It
amazes me what gets them completely flumoxed, they are girls and just
give up if it looks like a man thing. They couldn't get the water meter
cover off and it was held in place by gravity.

-snip-

Oh, I have been at this for years with them. There is no money up front
for insulation but there is for paying big bills not heating the place.

Maybe you can sell them on the 'insulation is free this month' if they
pay income tax. You can buy a lot of insulation for $1500.

You sure can! That is still money up front.

I just got rid of a 25 yr old furnace because the plenum was starting
to show signs of deterioration. But it was simple as all get out-
The youngsters who came to tune it up with their meters seemed to have
been flummoxed-- but it could be set by eye to 85% efficiency. Find
some old retired handyman who knows his way around a furnace& he
should be able to resurrect the old beast - or tell you it is a lost
cause.


It's odd. The repair guys seem to be able to get it in either heat mode
or AC mode. They preferred AC mode and have been toughing out in the
winter. This really makes no sense to me. I've looked at it, and it
makes no sense, but I know nothing about "modern" furnaces. And have no
further info.

From the looks of it- they'll need a furnace before the winter is
over.


I can put about $300 into them and I'm afraid we'll just have to make
the best of it. They have just enough to cover the mortgage and basic
bills. Most of their money making ideas haven't. It's tough out there.

Jeff

Jim

Jeff Thies wrote:

On 12/16/2010 8:04 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-

Styro is a better insulator-- but if there are still drafts around it,
it doesn't do that much good. I have 2" on the outside now, down
to the footer. On the inside I have that foil faced bubble wrap.
Pretty good R value for 1/2" space.

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insul...500-sq-ft.aspx

500 SF for $100.

I thought that looked high-- I think I just paid $50 for a roll at
Lowes.

I looked it up. Ooops-- that was for 25 feet! So that's a steal
even if you pay another $30 for shipping.


That would be easy to staple to the bottom of the rafters. The house has
several basements that were added as the house was expanded. I think
I'll insulate underfloor where the floor area is less than the wall space.

A caution about insulating the floor-- Without a furnace, the only
thing heating the basement is lost heat from upstairs. [a terribly
inefficient way of doing it-- but it is what it is]

Insulate the floors and risk freezing more pipes. If the pipes are
between the insulation and the 'heated' space- that would be ok.



I'll bet if you go down in that basement on a bright and sunny day,
and turn off the lights, you'll see some places to start. A few
cans of great stuff work well to stop the drafts.

I've instructed them to do exactly that. The girls are good with crafts
(and art) and one of them fixed all my plaster in a couple rooms. It
amazes me what gets them completely flumoxed, they are girls and just
give up if it looks like a man thing. They couldn't get the water meter
cover off and it was held in place by gravity.

Well, if they'll go down to the basement, they are one up on my
wife.g


-snip-

I can put about $300 into them and I'm afraid we'll just have to make
the best of it. They have just enough to cover the mortgage and basic
bills. Most of their money making ideas haven't. It's tough out there.


I've been there. When it is all over you can't imagine how you
survived it.

Jim

On 12/16/2010 11:43 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
Jeff wrote:

On 12/16/2010 8:04 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:

-snip-

Styro is a better insulator-- but if there are still drafts around it,
it doesn't do that much good. I have 2" on the outside now, down
to the footer. On the inside I have that foil faced bubble wrap.
Pretty good R value for 1/2" space.

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insul...500-sq-ft.aspx

500 SF for $100.

I thought that looked high-- I think I just paid $50 for a roll at
Lowes.

It's pricey. Fiberglass is cheaper.

I looked it up. Ooops-- that was for 25 feet! So that's a steal
even if you pay another $30 for shipping.

I think so too.


That would be easy to staple to the bottom of the rafters. The house has
several basements that were added as the house was expanded. I think
I'll insulate underfloor where the floor area is less than the wall space.

A caution about insulating the floor-- Without a furnace, the only
thing heating the basement is lost heat from upstairs. [a terribly
inefficient way of doing it-- but it is what it is]


I've done that here. No trouble with frozen pipes, but I have a tighter
basement, and insulation on both hot and cold. I think I will add some
perimeter wall insulation later.

There, I think I can get the pipes under the insulation at the girls.
The back bath has two exterior walls. One interior heated. I think I can
get the insulation under the plumbing. The big problem is those two
uninsulated outer walls. Blowing cellulose in the walls would fix a lot
of evil, without it the house will always suck money.


Insulate the floors and risk freezing more pipes. If the pipes are
between the insulation and the 'heated' space- that would be ok.



I'm off to put in a speedo sensor for my 88 New Yorker on a wet cold
day. At least I'm not in Cleveland!

Jeff