I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

On Nov 20, 5:35*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

can blow fuses in light sets, may overheat wires, etc etc.

my wife did this once tied all the sets in one long string and blew
fuses that cost about as much as a new set of lights....... i warned
her not too

we are getting divorced

On 11/20/2010 2:35 PM DerbyDad03 spake thus:

I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

I'm confused too because of the unclear wording. If one set is rated at
72 watts, 210 watts should cover 3 sets, right? (OK, 216 watts.) So
maybe they mean that you can connect up to 2 *more* sets to the one you
have now?

As someone else said, the limiting factor here is probably the fuse in
the light set. The wires are probably heavy enough to allow more sets
than the fuses will handle.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/20/2010 2:35 PM DerbyDad03 spake thus:

I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?
Make sure you disconnect the strings before the fire inspector gets there.
Insurance companies look for ways to disallow your claim.

I'm confused too because of the unclear wording. If one set is rated at
72 watts, 210 watts should cover 3 sets, right? (OK, 216 watts.) So
maybe they mean that you can connect up to 2 *more* sets to the one you
have now?

What's unclear about it?
Three sets exceeds 210 watts. The math is simple.
Don't try to understand the intersection of all the quirks of
international safety rules.
Follow the directions and you should be fine.

If your car holds 14 gallons of gas. You've got 3 5-gallon jerry cans.
Trying to put in all 3 is a BAD idea. And it doesn't matter what
"someone else" told you.

On a technical note...
The power factor is likely horrible, so the peak current may be way
bigger than you'd think for 72 watts.


As someone else said, the limiting factor here is probably the fuse in
the light set. The wires are probably heavy enough to allow more sets
than the fuses will handle.

I haven't put a product thru safety certification in over 20 years, but
at that time, "Probably" was not a term that you'd want to use in the
presence of the test engineer...especially if you had no idea what
you were talking about.

I never understood why people insist on putting heat sources on
dessicated pine trees inside their houses...and ignoring the safety
specs.

On 11/20/2010 3:34 PM mike spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

As someone else said, the limiting factor here is probably the fuse in
the light set. The wires are probably heavy enough to allow more sets
than the fuses will handle.

I haven't put a product thru safety certification in over 20 years, but
at that time, "Probably" was not a term that you'd want to use in the
presence of the test engineer...especially if you had no idea what
you were talking about.

I never understood why people insist on putting heat sources on
dessicated pine trees inside their houses...and ignoring the safety
specs.

Safety concerns noted. But if the package says it's safe to use 3
strings, then shouldn't the consumer be able to trust that? Ass-u-ming
there are UL/CSA/whatnot labels on it. Otherwise, what are they going to
trust?

The problem is it's totally unclear how many strings are safe to use.
How do you parse the instructions the OP gave?


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

3 sets would be 6 watts over the limit.

On Nov 20, 5:35*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

Having worked in commercial buildings and done some holiday
decor work -- the target specs on what loads you could safely
support off the holiday light sets gave you wattages and the
number of INDENTICAL strings you could connect because
not every manufacturer builds light sets that use exactly the
same wattage and it doesn't leave you trying to convert
it says "210 watts total or less" very clearly for you...

Sounds like you need some properly rated outdoor
extension cords...

~~ Evan

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/20/2010 3:34 PM mike spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

As someone else said, the limiting factor here is probably the fuse
in the light set. The wires are probably heavy enough to allow more
sets than the fuses will handle.

I haven't put a product thru safety certification in over 20 years, but
at that time, "Probably" was not a term that you'd want to use in the
presence of the test engineer...especially if you had no idea what
you were talking about.

I never understood why people insist on putting heat sources on
dessicated pine trees inside their houses...and ignoring the safety
specs.

Safety concerns noted. But if the package says it's safe to use 3
strings, then shouldn't the consumer be able to trust that? Ass-u-ming
there are UL/CSA/whatnot labels on it. Otherwise, what are they going to
trust?

The problem is it's totally unclear how many strings are safe to use.
How do you parse the instructions the OP gave?


I could find nothing in the original post that said, "it's safe to use 3
sets." You have better first-hand information than I do.
If that's what YOUR package says, you should be able to do that.

On 11/20/10 9:46 PM, Pat wrote:
wrote in message
...
I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

3 sets would be 6 watts over the limit.



Yeah, I get that.

As I re-read my OP, I can see that I wasn't clear in what I was asking.

In addition, I found some slightly different wording on another part of
the box.

On the front of the box it says:

- Connect up to 2 sets end to end ** -- Note the double asterisks

Then on the back it says what I posted earlier, with the double
asterisks as shown:

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

** Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

So what are they saying/implying?
1 - I can connect up to 2 strings of TARGET 300 icicle light sets (144
watts) and then whatever I want after that as long as I don't exceed 210
watts total.

2 - I can only connect 2 strings of their lights even though the total
wattage is less than 210.

3 - I can use one of their sets and then connect anything else I want to
it as long as I don;t exceed 210 watts.

They used the word "or" which, grammatically speaking, means that the "2
sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300 icicle light set" stands alone.
In other words, I can do one *or* the other - Up t 210 *or* 2 sets of
their lights.

Now here's why I ask: For the past few years, I have had *three* sets of
these lights strung together (outdoors). These 300 light sets are made
up of 4 sections of ~20 icicles each. The first year, all the lights
worked. The next year, one section of a couple of strings stopped
working. (I was able to arrange the lights so that the sections that
wouldn't light weren't seen).

By the end of last year, each of the 3 strings had at least one section
that didn't work, one of them had 2.

So here's the real question: Could stringing more than 2 sets together
cause sections of each set to go bad?

Another question: You can "piggyback" plugs by plugging one plug into
the back of another plug. If I piggyback 2 plugs, can I power 4 sets as
long as I only have 2 sets connected end to end? In other words, the
piggyback plugs would be in the middle and there would be 600 lights to
the left and 600 lights to the right.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

[snip]


So here's the real question: Could stringing more than 2 sets together
cause sections of each set to go bad?

What the instructions say can be really wrong. I actually measure the
current load. For example, a 100-light miniature string uses .4A.

The current limit for multiple sets connected together is determined by the
wiring and the fuse, and as stated as 3A. I then subtract 1A for safety (and
poor quality control in the lights). That means 5 sets are OK. I've used 5
many times with no problem.

Note that extension cords normally have higher limits. You can plus multiple
sets of lights into one cord. Regular cords say 13A, but can overheat with
more than 10A continuous.

Another question: You can "piggyback" plugs by plugging one plug into
the back of another plug. If I piggyback 2 plugs, can I power 4 sets as
long as I only have 2 sets connected end to end? In other words, the
piggyback plugs would be in the middle and there would be 600 lights to
the left and 600 lights to the right.

All 4 sets are taking current through the fuse in the first set. Can it
handle 4 sets? If these are miniature lights, as I mentioned above, that
would be 2.4A through a 3A fuse. It may work, or you could be replacing that
fuse a lot.

--
34 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
twelve dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." -- Rod Serling

On Nov 20, 11:46*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 11/20/10 9:46 PM, Pat wrote:





*wrote in message
...
I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

3 sets would be 6 watts over the limit.

Yeah, I get that.

As I re-read my OP, I can see that I wasn't clear in what I was asking.

In addition, I found some slightly different wording on another part of
the box.

On the front of the box it says:

- Connect up to 2 sets end to end ** *-- Note the double asterisks

Then on the back it says what I posted earlier, with the double
asterisks as shown:

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

** Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
* icicle light set."

So what are they saying/implying?
1 - I can connect up to 2 strings of TARGET 300 icicle light sets (144
watts) and then whatever I want after that as long as I don't exceed 210
watts total.

2 - I can only connect 2 strings of their lights even though the total
wattage is less than 210.

3 - I can use one of their sets and then connect anything else I want to
it as long as I don;t exceed 210 watts.

They used the word "or" which, grammatically speaking, means that the "2
sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300 icicle light set" stands alone.
In other words, I can do one *or* the other - Up t 210 *or* 2 sets of
their lights.

Now here's why I ask: For the past few years, I have had *three* sets of
these lights strung together (outdoors). These 300 light sets are made
up of 4 sections of ~20 icicles each. The first year, all the lights
worked. The next year, one section of a couple of strings stopped
working. (I was able to arrange the lights so that the sections that
wouldn't light weren't seen).

By the end of last year, each of the 3 strings had at least one section
that didn't work, one of them had 2.

So here's the real question: Could stringing more than 2 sets together
cause sections of each set to go bad?

Another question: You can "piggyback" plugs by plugging one plug into
the back of another plug. If I piggyback 2 plugs, can I power 4 sets as
long as I only have 2 sets connected end to end? In other words, the
piggyback plugs would be in the middle and there would be 600 lights to
the left and 600 lights to the right.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Those tiny Italian lights have a fuse built into the plug, and the
string of lights and anything that is plugged into the plug all go
through the fuses, so be cautious. A triple cube-tap plugged into the
end of an extension cord wil solve many problems.

Where it says "made in xxxx", what is xxxx? Do you trust the English
to have been carefully and accurately written and/or transcribed?

Maybe older strings used 105W, and were revised to use 72W, but the
package wasn't carefully proofed.

Maybe the numbers are in octal.

Edward

"Edward Reid" wrote in message
...
Where it says "made in xxxx", what is xxxx? Do you trust the English
to have been carefully and accurately written and/or transcribed?

Maybe older strings used 105W, and were revised to use 72W, but the
package wasn't carefully proofed.

Maybe the numbers are in octal.

Edward

It is time for that old joke about Halloween equalling Christmas for
programmers? (OCT31 = DEC25)

--
Bobby G.

On Nov 22, 2:19*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Edward Reid" wrote in message

...

Where it says "made in xxxx", what is xxxx? Do you trust the English
to have been carefully and accurately written and/or transcribed?

Maybe older strings used 105W, and were revised to use 72W, but the
package wasn't carefully proofed.

Maybe the numbers are in octal.

Edward

It is time for that old joke about Halloween equalling Christmas for
programmers? (OCT31 = DEC25)

--
Bobby G.

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

On 11/21/2010 12:46 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 11/20/10 9:46 PM, Pat wrote:
wrote in message
...
I bought some 300 bulb Icicle lights sets at Target.

On the box it says (word for word):

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

Lousy grammar aside, if the sets are rated at 72 watts and you can
"connect up to 210 watts", why the "2 sets (600 lights)" limitation?

What will happen if I connect 3 or 4 sets together - other than the
Christmas Lights police coming after me?

Thanks!

3 sets would be 6 watts over the limit.



Yeah, I get that.

As I re-read my OP, I can see that I wasn't clear in what I was asking.

In addition, I found some slightly different wording on another part of
the box.

On the front of the box it says:

- Connect up to 2 sets end to end ** -- Note the double asterisks

Then on the back it says what I posted earlier, with the double
asterisks as shown:

"Electrical rating: 120V, 0.6 Amps, 72 watts

** Connect up to 210 Watts or 2 sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300
icicle light set."

So what are they saying/implying?
1 - I can connect up to 2 strings of TARGET 300 icicle light sets (144
watts) and then whatever I want after that as long as I don't exceed 210
watts total.

2 - I can only connect 2 strings of their lights even though the total
wattage is less than 210.

3 - I can use one of their sets and then connect anything else I want to
it as long as I don;t exceed 210 watts.

They used the word "or" which, grammatically speaking, means that the "2
sets (600 lights) of the same TARGET 300 icicle light set" stands alone.
In other words, I can do one *or* the other - Up t 210 *or* 2 sets of
their lights.

Now here's why I ask: For the past few years, I have had *three* sets of
these lights strung together (outdoors). These 300 light sets are made
up of 4 sections of ~20 icicles each. The first year, all the lights
worked. The next year, one section of a couple of strings stopped
working. (I was able to arrange the lights so that the sections that
wouldn't light weren't seen).

By the end of last year, each of the 3 strings had at least one section
that didn't work, one of them had 2.

So here's the real question: Could stringing more than 2 sets together
cause sections of each set to go bad?

Another question: You can "piggyback" plugs by plugging one plug into
the back of another plug. If I piggyback 2 plugs, can I power 4 sets as
long as I only have 2 sets connected end to end?

Yes.


The fuse will eventually blow if you exceed the current rating, You
should have spare fuses in the little packet with spare bulbs. There
should be some way to open the plug and replace them.

It won't matter what is plugged in the end, as long as the total wattage
is less, per string, than what they rate.

You may wish to try some of the LED lights, they use a lot less
current and will pay for themselves if you leave the lights on a lot.
Hence more strings end to end. You probably will note a color difference
if you mix sets.

Jeff



In other words, the
piggyback plugs would be in the middle and there would be 600 lights to
the left and 600 lights to the right.

Edward Reid wrote:

Where it says "made in xxxx", what is xxxx? Do you trust the English
to have been carefully and accurately written and/or transcribed?

Maybe older strings used 105W, and were revised to use 72W, but the
package wasn't carefully proofed.

Maybe the numbers are in octal.

Edward

I often find errors in the packaging for Holiday lights (such as electrical
ratings). Instead of relying on those, I make my own measurements (and add a
little for safety).

Miniature lights use .2A per series (this can be 35, but is usually 50. 100
lights is 2 series).
C7 (and G40) lights use 1.3A per 25 lights.
C9 lights use 1.5A per 25 lights.
LED lights use .002A per string (50-70).

an extension cord (#16) allows 10A (ends overheat with 13A). Use 2 cords to
get the maximum available from an outlet.

I make use of these rules when putting out lights (I start on Black Friday).

--
33 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
twelve dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." -- Rod Serling

On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Nov 22, 2:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. *A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. *You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

For years the things didn't have any fuses at all. Relied on common
sense as to how many you daisy chained. Of course common sense is in
short supply so now when we used to be able to string 4 or 5 of them
we can't any more because of a few morons.

On 11/22/2010 12:21 PM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On Nov 22, 2:59 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses.
A cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of
aluminum foil around it. You can plug more strings onto the end
that way as well. You are breaking the safety rules but the wire
will handle a few more strings and a dead short will melt the
foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an
acceptable solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're
talking about an electrical device (actually lots of them, with
lots of wire) strung on a highly combustible conifer. Potential
recipe for disaster. Not worth taking chances on (unless you were
already planning on insurance arson or some such).

For years the things didn't have any fuses at all. Relied on common
sense as to how many you daisy chained.

And of course during those years we had *no* fires resulting from
Xmas-tree lights ...


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On 11/22/2010 11:57 AM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

Edward Reid wrote:

Where it says "made in xxxx", what is xxxx? Do you trust the English
to have been carefully and accurately written and/or transcribed?

Maybe older strings used 105W, and were revised to use 72W, but the
package wasn't carefully proofed.

Maybe the numbers are in octal.

I often find errors in the packaging for Holiday lights (such as electrical
ratings). Instead of relying on those, I make my own measurements (and add a
little for safety).

Well, how nice for you.

Unfortunately, beyond the capability of most people. Even most people
here on a.h.r, I'd guess.

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt resistor?


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:25:20 -0800, David Nebenzahl shat:

On 11/22/2010 12:21 PM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On Nov 22, 2:59 pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on
a highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

For years the things didn't have any fuses at all. Relied on common
sense as to how many you daisy chained.

And of course during those years we had *no* fires resulting from
Xmas-tree lights ...

And of course during these years with fuses we have *no* fires resulting
from Xmas-tree lights...

On 11/22/2010 12:28 PM Mike Hockisbigg spake thus:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:25:20 -0800, David Nebenzahl shat:

On 11/22/2010 12:21 PM jamesgangnc spake thus:

For years the things didn't have any fuses at all. Relied on common
sense as to how many you daisy chained.

And of course during those years we had *no* fires resulting from
Xmas-tree lights ...

And of course during these years with fuses we have *no* fires resulting
from Xmas-tree lights...

We can safely assume that because of the cases where the fuses did their
job by blowing, there have been fewer fires post-fuses. (My earlier
statement was, admittedly, a little hyperbolic; it's called "getting
your attention".)


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:36:45 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:36:45 -0800, David Nebenzahl shat:

On 11/22/2010 12:28 PM Mike Hockisbigg spake thus:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:25:20 -0800, David Nebenzahl shat:

On 11/22/2010 12:21 PM jamesgangnc spake thus:

For years the things didn't have any fuses at all. Relied on common
sense as to how many you daisy chained.

And of course during those years we had *no* fires resulting from
Xmas-tree lights ...

And of course during these years with fuses we have *no* fires
resulting from Xmas-tree lights...

We can safely assume that because of the cases where the fuses did their
job by blowing, there have been fewer fires post-fuses. (My earlier
statement was, admittedly, a little hyperbolic; it's called "getting
your attention".)

Oh ok. Sorry I'm not used to posts made in the name of attention getting.

Mark Lloyd wrote:

[snip]

LED lights use .002A per string (50-70).


A little typing error there, that's .02A

[snip]


--
33 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
twelve dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." -- Rod Serling

On Nov 22, 2:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. *A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. *You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on
a highly combustible conifer."

umm...no we're not.

Although not specifically stated in my OP that these are outdoor
lights, I did mention that in my second post.

However, in my OP I did mention that they were icicle lights. I'm not
sure I've ever seen a highly combustible conifer strung with icicle
lights.

Note: None of this means that I plan to wrap tin foil around the fuse.
That's just not gonna happen.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]


So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?


Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

--
33 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"It is difficult to produce a television documentary that is both
incisive and probing when every twelve minutes one is interrupted by
twelve dancing rabbits singing about toilet paper." -- Rod Serling

On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Nov 22, 3:53*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 22, 2:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:



On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. *A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. *You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well..
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on
a highly combustible conifer."

umm...no we're not.

Although not specifically stated in my OP that these are outdoor
lights, I did mention that in my second post.

However, in my OP I did mention that they were icicle lights. I'm not
sure I've ever seen a highly combustible conifer strung with icicle
lights.

Note: None of this means that I plan to wrap tin foil around the fuse.
That's just not gonna happen.


Umm... Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards...

Vented roof ? Nice, a fire that starts on lights mounted on
your eaves can be sucked right in the vents there and
start your roof on fire from the underside...

If you like holiday lighting you need to have the proper
power supply plan -- whether this involves hardwired
outlets located on the exterior of your home for the
purpose OR the proper use of the correct size
extension cords and properly chaining the light sets
you are using...

~~ Evan

On Nov 23, 2:59*am, Evan wrote:
On Nov 22, 3:53*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Nov 22, 2:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. *A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. *You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on
a highly combustible conifer."

umm...no we're not.

Although not specifically stated in my OP that these are outdoor
lights, I did mention that in my second post.

However, in my OP I did mention that they were icicle lights. I'm not
sure I've ever seen a highly combustible conifer strung with icicle
lights.

Note: None of this means that I plan to wrap tin foil around the fuse.
That's just not gonna happen.

Umm... *Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards...

Vented roof ? *Nice, a fire that starts on lights mounted on
your eaves can be sucked right in the vents there and
start your roof on fire from the underside...

If you like holiday lighting you need to have the proper
power supply plan -- whether this involves hardwired
outlets located on the exterior of your home for the
purpose OR the proper use of the correct size
extension cords and properly chaining the light sets
you are using...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Umm... Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

Sure...if they're dead/dry and exposed to a heat source hot enough to
actually ignite them. Even if the lights in question were being used
on my outdoor plants, shrubs and trees - which are all alive and
healthy - I don't think I'd be losing a lot of sleep worrying about
the foliage bursting into flames.

"So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards..."

Umm...but not metal gutters or downspouts. All nearby trim is covered
in aluminum.

In any case, I was able to string 6 sets in such a manner that I have
no more than 2 strings end-to-end, so I am within the specs of the
product.

I have not defeated the fuses.

I have used outdoor rated extension cords.

I have used 3-way plug adaptors so the light set plugs are not piggy
backed.

Everything is plugged into GFCI outlets.

The only rule from the box that I don't plan to follow is this one:

"Never leave light sets unattended when lit."

On Nov 23, 10:22*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 23, 2:59*am, Evan wrote:





On Nov 22, 3:53*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Nov 22, 2:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. *A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. *You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on
a highly combustible conifer."

umm...no we're not.

Although not specifically stated in my OP that these are outdoor
lights, I did mention that in my second post.

However, in my OP I did mention that they were icicle lights. I'm not
sure I've ever seen a highly combustible conifer strung with icicle
lights.

Note: None of this means that I plan to wrap tin foil around the fuse..
That's just not gonna happen.

Umm... *Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards...

Vented roof ? *Nice, a fire that starts on lights mounted on
your eaves can be sucked right in the vents there and
start your roof on fire from the underside...

If you like holiday lighting you need to have the proper
power supply plan -- whether this involves hardwired
outlets located on the exterior of your home for the
purpose OR the proper use of the correct size
extension cords and properly chaining the light sets
you are using...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Umm... *Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

Sure...if they're dead/dry and exposed to a heat source hot enough to
actually ignite them. Even if the lights in question were being used
on my outdoor plants, shrubs and trees - which are all alive and
healthy - I don't think I'd be losing a lot of sleep worrying about
the foliage bursting into flames.

"So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards..."

Umm...but not metal gutters or downspouts. All nearby trim is covered
in aluminum.

In any case, I was able to string 6 sets in such a manner that I have
no more than 2 strings end-to-end, so I am within the specs of the
product.

I have not defeated the fuses.

I have used outdoor rated extension cords.

I have used 3-way plug adaptors so the light set plugs are not piggy
backed.

Everything is plugged into GFCI outlets.

The only rule from the box that I don't plan to follow is this one:

"Never leave light sets unattended when lit."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For the record, wrapping a little foil around a fuse doesn't defate
it. The foil acts just like a fuse on a dead short. It does raise
the current limit to an inknown amount and it becomes up to you to not
string together so many as to exceed the wire rating.

I run a lot of lights outside myself. A bunch of C9's and minis. I
hate those tiny bulbs mostly because they are in series. I have one
of thsoe systems that controls your lights in coordination with
music.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1099064576531

Because of all the c9's I had to extend it's capability with some
triacs. That also let me run the lights off different house circuits
so I wasn't putting all the load on one outlet.

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.

How many multimeters don't have an ammeter? I think if you spend more
than 99 cents, you get that function built-in, so why fuss around with
that other stuff? A couple of alligator clip leads and just tap in
wherever it's convenient.

On Nov 23, 11:44*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*David Nebenzahl wrote:





On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.

How many multimeters don't have an ammeter? I think if you spend more
than 99 cents, you get that function built-in, so why fuss around with
that other stuff? A couple of alligator clip leads and just tap in
wherever it's convenient.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mnay do have an amp meter but it is often limited to smaller current
amounts. You need some pretty good leads and internals if you are
going to measure stuff over a few amps. For more than a couple amps
the clamp ons are the fastest way to go.

On 11/23/2010 8:44 AM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.

How many multimeters don't have an ammeter? I think if you spend more
than 99 cents, you get that function built-in, so why fuss around with
that other stuff? A couple of alligator clip leads and just tap in
wherever it's convenient.

The ammeter function on most (all?) multimeters is limited to DC
amperes. You'd have to use a rectifier in series, which throw off the
measurement and screw up the device under load.

With a shunt resistor, no such problems. You run the entire load through
the resistor, and measure the voltage across it to calculate the current
(using Ohm's law).

Also, although multimeters have a 10A range (my $3 Harbor Fright one
does), I doubt the test leads would withstand that much current without
burning up. You'd pretty much be limited to the lower ranges (200 mA
max., which would work fine for Xmas lights, apart from the AC/DC
problem noted above).


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On Nov 23, 10:51*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Nov 23, 10:22*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Nov 23, 2:59*am, Evan wrote:

On Nov 22, 3:53*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Nov 22, 2:59*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 6:18 AM jamesgangnc spake thus:

On most of mine the piggy back plug does not go thru the fuses. *A
cheap way to replace the fuse is to wrap a small bit of aluminum foil
around it. *You can plug more strings onto the end that way as well.
You are breaking the safety rules but the wire will handle a few more
strings and a dead short will melt the foil.

You know, in some other situations I might consider this an acceptable
solution. But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on a
highly combustible conifer. Potential recipe for disaster. Not worth
taking chances on (unless you were already planning on insurance arson
or some such).

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"But as someone else pointed out here, we're talking about an
electrical device (actually lots of them, with lots of wire) strung on
a highly combustible conifer."

umm...no we're not.

Although not specifically stated in my OP that these are outdoor
lights, I did mention that in my second post.

However, in my OP I did mention that they were icicle lights. I'm not
sure I've ever seen a highly combustible conifer strung with icicle
lights.

Note: None of this means that I plan to wrap tin foil around the fuse.
That's just not gonna happen.

Umm... *Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards...

Vented roof ? *Nice, a fire that starts on lights mounted on
your eaves can be sucked right in the vents there and
start your roof on fire from the underside...

If you like holiday lighting you need to have the proper
power supply plan -- whether this involves hardwired
outlets located on the exterior of your home for the
purpose OR the proper use of the correct size
extension cords and properly chaining the light sets
you are using...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Umm... *Outdoor plants, shrubs and trees are still flammable...

Sure...if they're dead/dry and exposed to a heat source hot enough to
actually ignite them. Even if the lights in question were being used
on my outdoor plants, shrubs and trees - which are all alive and
healthy - I don't think I'd be losing a lot of sleep worrying about
the foliage bursting into flames.

"So are vinyl and wood siding, eaves and fascia boards..."

Umm...but not metal gutters or downspouts. All nearby trim is covered
in aluminum.

In any case, I was able to string 6 sets in such a manner that I have
no more than 2 strings end-to-end, so I am within the specs of the
product.

I have not defeated the fuses.

I have used outdoor rated extension cords.

I have used 3-way plug adaptors so the light set plugs are not piggy
backed.

Everything is plugged into GFCI outlets.

The only rule from the box that I don't plan to follow is this one:

"Never leave light sets unattended when lit."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For the record, wrapping a little foil around a fuse doesn't defate
it. *The foil acts just like a fuse on a dead short. *It does raise
the current limit to an inknown amount and it becomes up to you to not
string together so many as to exceed the wire rating.

I run a lot of lights outside myself. *A bunch of C9's and minis. *I
hate those tiny bulbs mostly because they are in series. *I have one
of thsoe systems that controls your lights in coordination with
music.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1099064576531

Because of all the c9's I had to extend it's capability with some
triacs. *That also let me run the lights off different house circuits
so I wasn't putting all the load on one outlet.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"For the record, wrapping a little foil around a fuse doesn't
defate it. The foil acts just like a fuse on a dead short. It does
raise the current limit to an inknown amount..."

What's the purpose of a fuse? Is it to open only in dead short
conditions or is it to open when the current rating of the weakest
link in the device is exceeded?

Based on the most common definition of a fuse - an overcurrent
protection device - wrapping foil around it such that the circuit may
be subjected to more current than the fuse is rated for does indeed
defeat it.

On Nov 23, 11:44*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*David Nebenzahl wrote:





On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.

How many multimeters don't have an ammeter? I think if you spend more
than 99 cents, you get that function built-in, so why fuss around with
that other stuff? A couple of alligator clip leads and just tap in
wherever it's convenient.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, you even need to spend 99 cents to get that function...

http://www.harborfreight.com/free-multimeter-web.html

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.



I didn't add a shunt resistor, the meter already had one. Before selecting
that meter, I looked for one with a 10A range for measuring the current
consumption of devices.

--
32 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities" -- Voltaire

Smitty Two wrote:

[snip]

How many multimeters don't have an ammeter? I think if you spend more
than 99 cents, you get that function built-in, so why fuss around with
that other stuff? A couple of alligator clip leads and just tap in
wherever it's convenient.

On many meters (at least a few years ago), the current function was limited
to 300mA or so. I chose one with a 10A range.

The adapter I used was a switch on a cord (both male and female ends at one
end, switch at the other). I removed the switch and added banana plugs.

BTW, you could also use a clamp ammeter and a split extension cord.

--
32 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities" -- Voltaire

David Nebenzahl wrote:


[snip]

Also, although multimeters have a 10A range (my $3 Harbor Fright one
does), I doubt the test leads would withstand that much current without
burning up.

The test leads that came with mine (not from Harbor Fright) look like they
would handle 10A, although they wouldn't work that well with 120VAC plugs
and recepticles, I built my adapter (switch on a cord with switch replaced
with banana plugs) to make it easy.

When selecting a DMM, I consideded that I would often be measuring current
used by 120VAC devices, and didn't have a clamp meter then. This DMM is
about 30 yearts old.

You'd pretty much be limited to the lower ranges (200 mA
max., which would work fine for Xmas lights, apart from the AC/DC
problem noted above).



200mA wouldn't be enough for a string of C9 incandescent lights.

--
32 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities" -- Voltaire

On 11/23/2010 6:13 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 11/22/2010 8:09 PM Mark Lloyd spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So how do you measure current? Kill A Watt? or multimeter + shunt
resistor?

Before getting the Kill-A-Watt I use now, I used a multimeter with a
homemade adapter for measuring current. It was safe as long as it was
connected to the meter first. Anyway, I never used it outside or anywhere
near water.

So basically just a shunt resistor. Like, say, 1-2 ohms, 10-20 watts.
Plus a plug-and-socket arrangement. I should try that sometime. The poor
man's Kill A Watt.

I didn't add a shunt resistor, the meter already had one. Before selecting
that meter, I looked for one with a 10A range for measuring the current
consumption of devices.

So you're saying the 10A range is for AC as well as DC? I thought all
the current ranges on DMMs were DC only, but could be wrong.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[snip]

So you're saying the 10A range is for AC as well as DC? I thought all
the current ranges on DMMs were DC only, but could be wrong.


IIRC, on analog meters the current ranges were DC-only. Not so with this
digital meter (a Scope DVM-632 that's about 32 years old).

--
31 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"If there's room for doubt -- doubt!"