Is there ever a reason to have a French drain with no outlet, or with
an outlet that's higher than the collector in the drain? This is in
Florida -- north Florida, but still very sandy soil.

To make a long story very short, I've discovered that's what I have
around my house. I had realized for a while that there must not be a
down-sloped outlet -- that would require ground slope which isn't
present. There's an outlet from the French drain around the
foundation, but it rises at least a foot, making the outlet about the
level of the top of the highest part of the French drain. To make it
worse, the gutter drain Y-s into the French drain outlet about 6' from
the house, in such a way that the gutter drain can feed back into the
French drain, and probably does.

The French drain probably isn't needed anyway. Almost certainly isn't.
But why it's there is part of the long story.

Anyway, if there's any excuse at all for this French drain, I'd like
to know before I start shooting my mouth off. OK, before I continue
shooting my mouth off.

Edward

On Nov 4, 1:57*am, Edward Reid
wrote:
Is there ever a reason to have a French drain with no outlet, or with
an outlet that's higher than the collector in the drain? This is in
Florida -- north Florida, but still very sandy soil.

To make a long story very short, I've discovered that's what I have
around my house. I had realized for a while that there must not be a
down-sloped outlet -- that would require ground slope which isn't
present. There's an outlet from the French drain around the
foundation, but it rises at least a foot, making the outlet about the
level of the top of the highest part of the French drain. To make it
worse, the gutter drain Y-s into the French drain outlet about 6' from
the house, in such a way that the gutter drain can feed back into the
French drain, and probably does.

The French drain probably isn't needed anyway. Almost certainly isn't.
But why it's there is part of the long story.

Anyway, if there's any excuse at all for this French drain, I'd like
to know before I start shooting my mouth off. OK, before I continue
shooting my mouth off.

Edward

Contractor that did the foundation probably just put it in without
paying much attention to where it ended. Someone else then hooked the
gutters to it. You're right, there is no temporary repeals of the law
of gravity when it comes to water. You could dig up the of that goes
out into the yard and bury it deeper with a some gravel at the
outlet. But I would take the gutters off of it. Unless you make a
really big drywell it will not be able to keep up and you will be
running the water back around the foundation.

On Nov 4, 1:57*am, Edward Reid
wrote:
Is there ever a reason to have a French drain with no outlet, or with
an outlet that's higher than the collector in the drain? This is in
Florida -- north Florida, but still very sandy soil.

To make a long story very short, I've discovered that's what I have
around my house. I had realized for a while that there must not be a
down-sloped outlet -- that would require ground slope which isn't
present. There's an outlet from the French drain around the
foundation, but it rises at least a foot, making the outlet about the
level of the top of the highest part of the French drain. To make it
worse, the gutter drain Y-s into the French drain outlet about 6' from
the house, in such a way that the gutter drain can feed back into the
French drain, and probably does.

The French drain probably isn't needed anyway. Almost certainly isn't.
But why it's there is part of the long story.

Anyway, if there's any excuse at all for this French drain, I'd like
to know before I start shooting my mouth off. OK, before I continue
shooting my mouth off.

Edward

I have one built into my house with no outlet or sump pump. Think
they just put it in just in case it were ever needed. My builder was
a cheapskate, so maybe he had to do it according to code.

On Nov 4, 8:00*am, Frank wrote:
On Nov 4, 1:57*am, Edward Reid
wrote:





Is there ever a reason to have a French drain with no outlet, or with
an outlet that's higher than the collector in the drain? This is in
Florida -- north Florida, but still very sandy soil.

To make a long story very short, I've discovered that's what I have
around my house. I had realized for a while that there must not be a
down-sloped outlet -- that would require ground slope which isn't
present. There's an outlet from the French drain around the
foundation, but it rises at least a foot, making the outlet about the
level of the top of the highest part of the French drain. To make it
worse, the gutter drain Y-s into the French drain outlet about 6' from
the house, in such a way that the gutter drain can feed back into the
French drain, and probably does.

The French drain probably isn't needed anyway. Almost certainly isn't.
But why it's there is part of the long story.

Anyway, if there's any excuse at all for this French drain, I'd like
to know before I start shooting my mouth off. OK, before I continue
shooting my mouth off.

Edward

I have one built into my house with no outlet or sump pump. *Think
they just put it in just in case it were ever needed. *My builder was
a cheapskate, so maybe he had to do it according to code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Often on new construction they put in foundation drain systems to a
sump pit or similar so that it's there and can LATER be completed, eg
add a pump. It's easy to do at that time and then if you need it,
it's there. Sounds like to complete this one would have required a
pump and wiring, etc, so they avoided that cost unless it became
necessary.

Edward Reid wrote the following:
Is there ever a reason to have a French drain with no outlet, or with
an outlet that's higher than the collector in the drain? This is in
Florida -- north Florida, but still very sandy soil.

To make a long story very short, I've discovered that's what I have
around my house. I had realized for a while that there must not be a
down-sloped outlet -- that would require ground slope which isn't
present. There's an outlet from the French drain around the
foundation, but it rises at least a foot, making the outlet about the
level of the top of the highest part of the French drain. To make it
worse, the gutter drain Y-s into the French drain outlet about 6' from
the house, in such a way that the gutter drain can feed back into the
French drain, and probably does.

The French drain probably isn't needed anyway. Almost certainly isn't.
But why it's there is part of the long story.
Anyway, if there's any excuse at all for this French drain, I'd like
to know before I start shooting my mouth off. OK, before I continue
shooting my mouth off.

Edward


You didn't say what happens when it rains. Do you get flooding? Does the
drain collect the water? Does the drain overflow?
Maybe, the way it is installed is working well and that's why you think
you don't need it.
"Geez, it often rains heavily around my house and I never get a flood,
so I don't really need this drain".

When asked which was more important, the Sun or the Moon, Professor
Irwin Corey replied, "the Moon".
When asked to explain, he said, "At night, it is dark so we need the
Moon to see. During the day, it is so bright out that we don't need the Sun"

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Nov 4, 9:26*am, willshak wrote:
Edward Reid wrote the following:





Is there ever a reason to have a French drain with no outlet, or with
an outlet that's higher than the collector in the drain? This is in
Florida -- north Florida, but still very sandy soil.

To make a long story very short, I've discovered that's what I have
around my house. I had realized for a while that there must not be a
down-sloped outlet -- that would require ground slope which isn't
present. There's an outlet from the French drain around the
foundation, but it rises at least a foot, making the outlet about the
level of the top of the highest part of the French drain. To make it
worse, the gutter drain Y-s into the French drain outlet about 6' from
the house, in such a way that the gutter drain can feed back into the
French drain, and probably does.

The French drain probably isn't needed anyway. Almost certainly isn't.
But why it's there is part of the long story.
Anyway, if there's any excuse at all for this French drain, I'd like
to know before I start shooting my mouth off. OK, before I continue
shooting my mouth off.

Edward

You didn't say what happens when it rains. Do you get flooding? Does the
drain collect the water? Does the drain overflow?
Maybe, the way it is installed is working well and that's why you think
you don't need it.
"Geez, it often rains heavily around my house and I never get a flood,
so I don't really need this drain".

When asked which was more important, the Sun or the Moon, Professor
Irwin Corey replied, "the Moon".
When asked to explain, he said, "At night, it is dark so we need the
Moon to see. During the day, it is so bright out that we don't need the Sun"

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That really doesn't matter, he should not be directing the gutter down
around the edge of the foundation and that's what it sounds like is
happening. Even if that appears to not create obvious problems it's
not a good idea. A lot of underground water flow can cause voids to
be created depending on the composition of the substrate.

jamesgangnc wrote:
That really doesn't matter, he should not be directing the gutter down
around the edge of the foundation

That's right. A French drain without an outlet away from the building
is not a drain, it is a gravel reservoir. These are used to *capture*
water, not remove it. Gravel reservoirs are popular in desert climate
landscaping, but I suppose they could be useful wherever monsoon rains
occur. Reservoirs should not be located against a building foundation.

Una

Una wrote the following:
jamesgangnc wrote:

That really doesn't matter, he should not be directing the gutter down
around the edge of the foundation


That's right. A French drain without an outlet away from the building
is not a drain, it is a gravel reservoir. These are used to *capture*
water, not remove it. Gravel reservoirs are popular in desert climate
landscaping, but I suppose they could be useful wherever monsoon rains
occur. Reservoirs should not be located against a building foundation.

Una



He didn't say it was up against the foundation, but maybe I missed that.
He did say that the gutter (down pipe?) drains into the "french drain"
(his words) 6' from the house.
Could that mean the "french drain", or reservoir, or trench, is 6 feet
away from the house?
All we really know is that he doesn't think he needs it.


--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Nov 4, 12:31*pm, willshak wrote:
Una wrote the following:

jamesgangnc wrote:

That really doesn't matter, he should not be directing the gutter down
around the edge of the foundation

That's right. *A French drain without an outlet away from the building
is not a drain, it is a gravel reservoir. *These are used to *capture*
water, not remove it. *Gravel reservoirs are popular in desert climate
landscaping, but I suppose they could be useful wherever monsoon rains
occur. *Reservoirs should not be located against a building foundation.

OK, thanks. I like "no temporary repeals of the law of gravity".

The long story, based on the comments. Layout at

http://paleo.org/house/house.html

I did the diagram eight+ years ago while buying the house, but it's
still correct in what matters here. I don't think it says, but the
front of the house is about 100' to the road, 70' my property and 30'
ROW (the paved road is butted against the far side of the ROW).

House was built in 1953. French drain and gutters installed in 2002 as
part of my purchase, based on inspector's and contractor's
recommendations. The seller was paying most of the cost, and I didn't
pay a lot of attention to the details. Obviously should have paid more
attention. (And in the end I may have paid most of the cost, as total
required repairs exceeded the seller's contracted maximum.) The seller
had been given the same report (same inspector even) when she bought
the house three years prior, but had not taken any action.

Symptoms at that time:

1) Fungus on a few joists. Inspector could not say how old, but saw no
change in three years.

2) Standing water or wet sand in the crawl space after rain.

3) Standing water at the south end of the house after a rain, pretty
much covering the space between this house and the one next door.

Contractor, who came with multiple good recommendations, recommended
a) the French drain, b) gutters, c) a low wall to protect the crawl
space access door, and d) a berm in the back yard to divert runoff.
(The crawl space access is at the SW corner of the house -- upper left
on the diagram -- so water flowing from the back yard could enter
easily.) AFAIK, the only evidence of water intrusion was on the south
end and the south part of the back (west) side. Work was completed and
we closed on the house. Though I paid less attention than I should
have, I saw enough to know that they did install the French drain, and
of course the other items are visible.

The French drain is against the foundation -- I didn't make that clear
before -- on the west, south, and east sides of the original house (as
marked on the diagram), about 110' total. The outlet pipe runs from
the SE corner of the house to the ditch at the road, just off the
bottom of the diagram.

Short term followup: though the berm was a good short term remedy, in
a few months I completely solved the backyard runoff problem -- by
doing nothing. Previous owner hired a "gardener" who came in with his
lawn tractor and scalped the yard to within an inch of its life, then
pulled out his leaf blower and took away the fallen leaves (the yard
is shaded by large oak and sweet gum trees) and grass cuttings. I
mowed as seldom as possible and at 3" height when I needed to, and
never removed any organic material. Wonder of wonders, in a few months
the ground was absorbing even the heaviest rain with no runoff at all
(remember, this is Florida, very sandy soil). Neither the inspector
nor the drainage contractor had noted this simple solution.

I got a remote-reading thermometer/hygrometer. Asked both the
inspector and the contractor what RH was needed to prevent damage to
the wood (fungus or rot). Neither could tell me. IIRC the inspector
had noted that the wood itself was dry enough, just had this old
fungus on it. Contractor basically said "I know how to dry it out, I
don't know how dry it needs to be". He was proposing forced
ventilation, which to me would just bring more hot moist air under the
house, where it would cool since the house now has A/C (of course it
did not in 1953, I think A/C was first installed in the late 1970s)
and make it damper. I finally found someone who said the figure is
70%. My hygrometer shows that the RH is usually under 70% in the crawl
space, and is only higher when it's higher outside. My conclusion is
that the fungus observed on the joists probably grew 30+ years ago,
before the house had A/C. No way to prove it of course.

I still had some trouble with water pooling, but it was clear that
some of it was backing up from the road. The ditch had not been
maintained, and water from uphill (north) was coming into my yard
instead of staying in the ditch. After several calls, I got the city
to pull the ditch and sod it. (The workers love throwing those sod
staples, or whatever they are called, into the sod. I'm sure those do
the job of holding it in, but I need a metal detector to get rid of
them. Just yesterday -- some six or seven years later -- I found
another one.) Since then, I've kept the ditch clear -- I learned that
a narrow channel is better than a wide one, because the slope lessens
in front of my house and the water drops its load of sediment if I
don't keep it running fast. Neither the inspector nor the contractor
noted the problem with backup from the road.

Long term followup: eventually the shingles made it clear they had
reached end of life. Also had continuing problems with a "homeowner
job" (a term I've come to use as a pejorative even as I continue to do
some things myself) on the screened sun room (see diagram), including
a valley with no slope. This year, had a new roof built over roughly
the north half of the house, redecked the rest (was only 3/8 at most,
not up to code), and metal roof put on the whole thing. Looks great,
and only a single puncture through the roof -- got rid of two unused
chimneys, used air admittance valves for two vents and ran the third
through a gable, leaving only a skylight over the porch.

But I didn't plan adequately for replacing the gutters, and they
didn't tie in well to the way we did the lower end of the metal roof
panels, so I spent a good while figuring out how to add flashing and
leaf guards to get all the water into the gutters and keep the leaves
and acorns out. Finally completed that last week and got to test it
the next day in a big thunderstorm. The gutters, flashing, and leaf
guards seemed to work fine. Three downspouts were spewing water from
joints, indicating blockage. The base of the downspout at the SW
corner was a veritable spring, water gushing up from where the
downspout entered the drain pipe. Not surprisingly, there was a puddle
at the south end of the house. (Which verified that the original
recommendation to install gutters was absolutely correct, since the
flooding reappeared when the gutters didn't work, even though the
backyard runoff and front ditch backup had been fixed.)

Checked the downspouts, only one was blocked, and that was above where
it was spewing. So I started working with the drain pipe, which is
that black polyethylene corrugated crap. Pulled out one downspout,
reached in, and pulled out a 4' long hairball. (OK, root ball, but I
have cats and it looks like a hairball.) Not enough to account for the
symptoms, but told me that roots were readily invading. I had seen
roots one other place, where a joint had been added later, so I wasn't
totally surprised.

Experimenting, I found that putting a hose down one of the front
downspouts got water flowing at the ditch, though it took about ten
minutes to get there. Putting a hose in a back downspout, however,
never got anything to the road, and the water was well above the top
of the pipe, but the hose could not put out enough water to make it
overflow. So there was a blockage along the south side, serious enough
to prevent significant flow. Yet there was an outlet large enough to
consume the input from an wide-open hose at less than 1/2 psi.
Puzzled.

By this point I had decided, both from these observations and from
reading various places, that the corrugated crap had to be replaced
with PVC. So I started digging it up, no longer being careful to avoid
making holes (and it's nearly impossible to dig the stuff up without
making holes anyway). Got about half way from the SE to the SW corner,
saw where I'd made a pretty big hole, and decided to test again. Water
came spewing out of the hole. So I'd exposed the part with the
blockage. Only took a minute to find a root as big as a finger growing
into the pipe. Had to cut open 2' of pipe just to pull out the
hairball, which ran 10' downstream and 4' upstream. After that,
another test showed that water from the back flowed to the road,
though it still took about ten minutes to get there.

(I still don't know why the drain was working before the gutters came
off and were replaced, and not after. My guess is that it's a
combination of it wasn't working very well before and that if I'd
looked carefully during a hard rain I'd have seen some backup, that 3
months with no flow allowed the roots to grow tighter, and that some
debris got in and plugged the remaining gaps before I got the gutters
protected again.)

So yesterday I started digging full speed (which for me is not very
fast) to expose the rest of the corrugated crap for replacement. I was
about 6'-8' from the SE corner (going toward the road) when I noticed
that I was hitting two corrugated pipes instead of one. I found that
they were tied together in a tight Y -- both pointed toward the road,
perhaps with the idea that this would mean one wouldn't back up into
the other. Still more digging revealed that the one I hadn't seen
before dove into the ground under the other. I didn't try to follow
it, but it's surely connected to the French drain. There's certainly
no other outlet from the French drain -- remember, I saw the work
being done, so I know it's not draining into a reservoir, and although
there's a little bit of slope, there's no place to hide a drain pipe
and lead it to an unexpected location.

So slow-moving water could back up from the gutter drain into the
French drain. Even some fast-moving water, especially with the
corrugated crap. And if the corrugated crap is partly blocked farther
downstream, a LOT of water could back up into the French drain.
Possibly this has something to do with the long time for water to
reach the ditch, though I haven't figured out any way to determine
that.

So that's the background for my post last night. In eight years, no
one has asked me for a recommendation on the inspector or the drainage
contractor, so probably it will never happen. I'm unlikely to act to
publicize what happened -- heck, I haven't even checked whether they
are still around, and the worst I can make it out to be is
incompetence, not fraud. But still there's this nugget in my brain
that wants to make sure I've got it right in case someone asks.

As for my belief that the French drain was not needed ... well,
obviously I have no way to remove it for testing. The fact that the
situation seems to be under control even though there's no effective
outlet weighs strongly in my mind. Of course, since the soil is sandy,
it's possible that the French drain is acting as a reservoir to get
the water to the bottom of the foundation to percolate, instead of
being against the foundation wall. (The foundation wall is brick,
painted on the outside. I think the paint was there before the French
drain was installed, but I'm not totally certain.) I know, as
described above, that the French drain doesn't solve the puddle --
blocked gutters alone re-created that, even with no backyard runoff or
backup from the ditch.

As for installing a French drain with the idea of adding an outlet or
pump later ... well, I've explained that I know that was not the case
here. But in this environment, a French drain with no maintenance is
just a mass of roots anyway. If I dug up my French drain now, I'd
probably find solid roots in the pipe -- after all, that pipe has to
have holes in it, which are invitations to the roots.

Now, aren't you glad you asked?

Edward

On 11/4/2010 10:34 AM, Una wrote:
wrote:
That really doesn't matter, he should not be directing the gutter down
around the edge of the foundation

That's right. A French drain without an outlet away from the building
is not a drain, it is a gravel reservoir. These are used to *capture*
water, not remove it. Gravel reservoirs are popular in desert climate
landscaping, but I suppose they could be useful wherever monsoon rains
occur. Reservoirs should not be located against a building foundation.

Una

I wish somebody woulda explained all this to the previous owner of this
place... :^(


--
aem sends...

Hi Ed,

As I said before, what you have in effect is a reservoir, not a drain.
The intrusive root balls are proof. Also, French drains should not be
used with gutters and downspouts. They are used to drain water *from*
the ground, not introduce water *to* the ground.

One reason you had root balls plugging the drains was that until you
put the new roof on and put screens on the gutters, oak leaves and
Spanish moss etc were going down into the drain and being snagged in
there.

Personally I would redo the French drains with PVC as you are already
doing and remove the gutters from the roof. It sounds like your sandy
soil is fully up to the task, with assistance from the French drains
to remove excess, now that you have fixed the surface runoff from your
west neighbor. If you do this, the ditch won't back up quite so much
because your property will be draining less into the ditch.

With so much water and your layout, you could also have a spectacular
rain garden and/or koi pond in the front yard.

Una

On Nov 4, 9:23*pm, (Una) wrote:
Hi Ed,

As I said before, what you have in effect is a reservoir, not a drain.
The intrusive root balls are proof. *Also, French drains should not be
used with gutters and downspouts. *They are used to drain water *from*
the ground, not introduce water *to* the ground.

One reason you had root balls plugging the drains was that until you
put the new roof on and put screens on the gutters, oak leaves and
Spanish moss etc were going down into the drain and being snagged in
there.

Personally I would redo the French drains with PVC as you are already
doing and remove the gutters from the roof.

Why on earth would you remove the gutters? The first rule in getting
rid of water is to correctly deal with the roof water by channeling it
away from the foundation. Makes no sense to change it so that rain
water falls from the roof to the ground and then try to deal with it
there. In addition to all the addional water at the foundation, he
would then have potential erosion problems from the falling water too.

Bottom line, deal with the roof runoff and french drains seperately.




*It sounds like your sandy
soil is fully up to the task, with assistance from the French drains
to remove excess, now that you have fixed the surface runoff from your
west neighbor. *If you do this, the ditch won't back up quite so much
because your property will be draining less into the ditch.

With so much water and your layout, you could also have a spectacular
rain garden and/or koi pond in the front yard.

* * * * Una

wrote:
Why on earth would you remove the gutters?

Roof gutters and French drains are alternative, not complimentary
solutions. Roof gutters are a maintenance nuisance, and they aren't
very satisfactory in climates where rainfall has a monsoon pattern
(short, heavy showers).

Una

On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 15:29:33 -0600 (MDT), (Una) wrote:
Roof gutters and French drains are alternative, not complimentary
solutions. Roof gutters are a maintenance nuisance, and they aren't
very satisfactory in climates where rainfall has a monsoon pattern
(short, heavy showers).

I hear you, but in my case it's clearly essential to get most of the
roof runoff away from the house. Or to look at it another way, the
French drain clearly isn't moving the water away, so I'll do it with
gutters. Actually if there were evidence of water moving under the
surface toward the house, the two might indeed be complementary. But I
agree that in this case, the French drain probably duplicated the
function of the gutters.

I just don't believe there's enough slope to move the water away from
the house once it hits the ground. If it goes into the French drain,
it's something like 18"-24" underground. Even if the exit hadn't been
installed uphill, what was the choice? A leach field? The bottom of
the French drain is possibly lower than the ditch, and certainly not
enough above it for proper flow. It has no place to exit. The gutters
at least let me capture the water at the ground surface rather than
below it.

Yes, the gutters require maintenance. I hope to reduce that by
installing PVC pipe to drain the downspouts to the ditch. That should
greatly improve the passage of leaves, and make it possible to root
out the pipes should they ever clog. (I will install cleanouts.) The
odd way the gutters join my roof means that it's difficult to raise
the leaf guards for cleaning, so what gets through the guards will
mostly go down the downspouts. But overall, I'll accept that I have to
maintain the gutters, not ignore them. I also have to blow the leaves
off the roof regularly anyway -- it's only a 3/12 slope or a little
less, so even with metal, the leaves don't all blow off by themselves.
There's a large live oak and a clump of bamboo that drop a lot of
leaves on the roof.

And the French drain would probably need a lot of maintenance too,
were I to depend on it. I don't plan to expose it to find out, but I
expect that I would find a lot of roots in it already. At least I can
see gutters, except for the drain pipe, and know what's wrong.

I thought "monsoon" referred to seasonal rainfall variation, not daily
or hourly, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Rainfall in my area
varies from 4" to 7" average per month over the course of the year, so
there is no particularly wet or dry season. It is true that much of it
comes in thunderstorms, often at a high rate. (A couple of years ago,
during Tropical Storm Fay, some places in the area got 17" of rain in
two days.) I accept that the very heaviest storms might overflow the
gutters (I used the small ones), but that's OK. A little water on the
ground occasionally won't hurt anything here. I just don't want it
there consistently.

I love watching the rain drip from the edge of the roof. I just don't
like watching it form a pond at the edge of my house.

Thanks again,

Edward

(Una) wrote:
Roof gutters and French drains are alternative, not complimentary
solutions. Roof gutters are a maintenance nuisance, and they aren't
very satisfactory in climates where rainfall has a monsoon pattern
(short, heavy showers).

Edward Reid wrote:
I hear you, but in my case it's clearly essential to get most of the
roof runoff away from the house.

I agree. What I am saying is that a French drain would serve well for
that. The thing you have, that was supposed to be a French drain, is
not one. It is a long skinny underground reservoir.


I just don't believe there's enough slope to move the water away from
the house once it hits the ground. If it goes into the French drain,
it's something like 18"-24" underground. Even if the exit hadn't been
installed uphill, what was the choice? A leach field? The bottom of
the French drain is possibly lower than the ditch, and certainly not
enough above it for proper flow. It has no place to exit.

They put corrugated plastic 18-24 inches down? No wonder the job went
over budget. That is far too deep. Good news is, it means you have
a lot of room to raise the drain tile to nearer the surface under the
drip line, and have a good slope down to the conduit leading away from
the house. It would be less work though to abandon the underground
stuff and build a ground surface channel from the downspouts to the
ditch. You can make the channel look like a stream bed, if you like
that sort of thing in a garden.

Una

On Sun, 7 Nov 2010 09:02:43 -0700 (MST), (Una) wrote:
Good news is, it means you have
a lot of room to raise the drain tile to nearer the surface under the
drip line, and have a good slope down to the conduit leading away from
the house.

Some slope. Not good slope. This is Florida ;-) ... north Florida, but
still Florida. The state whose high point is about 350' about sea
level. I'm happy if there's a downslope at all.

It would be less work though to abandon the underground
stuff and build a ground surface channel from the downspouts to the
ditch. You can make the channel look like a stream bed, if you like
that sort of thing in a garden.

I like the idea, but not in the short term. Don't know if it could
work in this yard at all. And the channel would still have to be solid
material, not soil -- not here -- would have to be concrete, PVC,
rubber lined, some such. The sandy soil and minimal slope limit what
can be done. And it would take a long streambed to pick up all the
water from the back side gutters.

Edward