On 11/01/10 4:07 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Mike wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Lew wrote in message
eb.com...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light
boxes be installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a
fan is added later.

-----------------------
What about the electrical service feeding the fans?

Lew


Admittedly, I've been assuming that before he added another ceiling
fan, there was already a plan place for a box in that same position,
to service a light. In this case, the wiring would be the same. If
not, then the $350 charge makes some sense.

The wiring would not be the same.


Depends on the fan. I installed a Casablanca fan using existing wiring, as
per the instructions. 3 wires. Nothing unusual.

Does code specify red/black/white+ground to ceiling fixtures?
It will change if it is a fan or a fan/light combo.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

On 11/1/10 3:07 PM, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Mike wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Lew wrote in message
eb.com...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light
boxes be installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a
fan is added later.

-----------------------
What about the electrical service feeding the fans?

Lew


Admittedly, I've been assuming that before he added another ceiling
fan, there was already a plan place for a box in that same position,
to service a light. In this case, the wiring would be the same. If
not, then the $350 charge makes some sense.

The wiring would not be the same.


Depends on the fan. I installed a Casablanca fan using existing wiring, as
per the instructions. 3 wires. Nothing unusual.



You can "depends" the crap out of this hypothetical until you're
satisfied that someone is ripping off someone else.
Bottom line: all things considered, $350 for the change isn't
unreasonable at all.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/1/10 3:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:
Best thing to do is to politely beg out of giving them an estimate at
all, citing job backlog, "our company isn't a good fit for your sort
of project" or some such, and then refer them to your competition.

R

That's usually my Plan A.
In the specific cases which jogged my memory enough to bring up this
scenario.... I was the competition who got referred. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Nov 1, 4:33*pm, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/1/10 3:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:

Best thing to do is to politely beg out of giving them an estimate at
all, citing job backlog, "our company isn't a good fit for your sort
of project" or some such, and then refer them to your competition. *


That's usually my Plan A.
In the specific cases which jogged my memory enough to bring up this
scenario.... I was the competition who got referred. * :-)

Ouch! At least it means that the competition is looking to mess you
up - that's a good thing.

There must be PITA people that get passed around like that from
contractor to contractor. I wonder what their cocktail party
conversation's are like...

"I can't get a price from a single contractor in this town! They're
all such pains! Why I could tell you stories about..."
"...oh, look. They brought out some shrimp. I'll talk to you later!
{zip!}"

R

On 11/1/10 5:17 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 1, 4:33 pm, wrote:
On 11/1/10 3:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:

Best thing to do is to politely beg out of giving them an estimate at
all, citing job backlog, "our company isn't a good fit for your sort
of project" or some such, and then refer them to your competition.


That's usually my Plan A.
In the specific cases which jogged my memory enough to bring up this
scenario.... I was the competition who got referred. :-)

Ouch! At least it means that the competition is looking to mess you
up - that's a good thing.


I use the term "competition" loosely, only because I'm not really in
competition with anyone. I have the luxury, as a self-unemployed
musician, of taking or leaving woodworking jobs.

What happens is that those cocktail party people to which you referred,
are music producers and such and since I'm in those circles, people find
out I do woodworking, too, so I get calls. Then they find out how
anal.... um, meticulous... I am and get called again and referred. With
the demand and meticulousness comes a hefty price tag, however. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Nov 1, 6:25*pm, -MIKE- wrote:


I use the term "competition" loosely, only because I'm not really in
competition with anyone. *I have the luxury, as a self-unemployed
musician, of taking or leaving woodworking jobs.


't be fun listening to you operate a roofing nailer.....

On 11/1/10 5:49 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:25 pm, wrote:


I use the term "competition" loosely, only because I'm not really in
competition with anyone. I have the luxury, as a self-unemployed
musician, of taking or leaving woodworking jobs.


't be fun listening to you operate a roofing nailer.....

Look man... sometimes I have to turn the radio off if the music's not
"in time" with whatever woodworking activity I'm doing. Hammering or
nail guns are pretty easy to subdivide into whatever time signature and
tempo a song is in.

But hand sanding can get weird. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

What people often forget is that it is not alway about the real work
involved. It's often about the impact to schedules. A business will
schedule work out in advance of the work at hand. Start adding extras to
the work at hand and very quickly, you can't start the scheduled work
behind it on time. Now you've got a problem. You have to make the
problems pay for themselves.


--

-Mike-



Very accurate and well presented point!

Colbyt

-MIKE- wrote:
On 11/1/10 5:17 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 1, 4:33 pm, wrote:
On 11/1/10 3:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:

Best thing to do is to politely beg out of giving them an estimate at
all, citing job backlog, "our company isn't a good fit for your sort
of project" or some such, and then refer them to your competition.


That's usually my Plan A.
In the specific cases which jogged my memory enough to bring up this
scenario.... I was the competition who got referred. :-)

Ouch! At least it means that the competition is looking to mess you
up - that's a good thing.


I use the term "competition" loosely, only because I'm not really in
competition with anyone. I have the luxury, as a self-unemployed
musician, of taking or leaving woodworking jobs.

What happens is that those cocktail party people to which you referred,
are music producers and such and since I'm in those circles, people find
out I do woodworking, too, so I get calls. Then they find out how
anal.... um, meticulous... I am and get called again and referred. With
the demand and meticulousness comes a hefty price tag, however. :-)



Hey, I'm a musician too, and Lew say's I'm--uh, meticulous, maybe I can
get in on some of that! : )

Bill

On Nov 1, 6:57*pm, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/1/10 5:49 PM, Robatoy wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:25 pm, *wrote:

I use the term "competition" loosely, only because I'm not really in
competition with anyone. *I have the luxury, as a self-unemployed
musician, of taking or leaving woodworking jobs.

't be fun listening to you operate a roofing nailer.....

Look man... sometimes I have to turn the radio off if the music's not
"in time" with whatever woodworking activity I'm doing. *Hammering or
nail guns are pretty easy to subdivide into whatever time signature and
tempo a song is in.

But hand sanding can get weird. * :-)



mmmmm weird you sayyyyy


Put on some hoofer music from an Astair movie. Throw some sand on the
floor, and get your hands and feet shuffling away.. here's a good
sanding song: (btw... you will never be able to hear this song again
without thinking of this video....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXgTHvO1MA

For a lot of sanding there's always this one...( try to make it to the
end..)

http://www.wimp.com/jumpinjive/

On 11/1/10 7:07 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:57 pm, wrote:
mmmmm weird you sayyyyy


Put on some hoofer music from an Astair movie. Throw some sand on the
floor, and get your hands and feet shuffling away.. here's a good
sanding song: (btw... you will never be able to hear this song again
without thinking of this video....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXgTHvO1MA


I love all those video mash-ups!


For a lot of sanding there's always this one...( try to make it to the
end..)

http://www.wimp.com/jumpinjive/


Right on... looks like a very young Chick Webb on the drums.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

How long do you suppose it would take (in actual hours) to "administer"
one more ceiling fan into the equation? We're not talking about doing
the actual installation. We're talking about paperwork.

So, how long?
---------
$750 for your contractor.

Since I would have to acquaint myself with the job, I'd want $2K as an
inspection fee, then could give you an educated guess, but $750 seems a
little light, especially since I detest paperwork.

Lew




Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light boxes be
installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a fan is added
later.


Then you are talking some where under $175 per light box. The extra ceiling
fans include bracing and additional wiring for the fan and light to run
separately.

On 11/1/2010 7:19 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/1/10 7:07 PM, Robatoy wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:57 pm, wrote:
mmmmm weird you sayyyyy


Put on some hoofer music from an Astair movie. Throw some sand on the
floor, and get your hands and feet shuffling away.. here's a good
sanding song: (btw... you will never be able to hear this song again
without thinking of this video....)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXgTHvO1MA


I love all those video mash-ups!


For a lot of sanding there's always this one...( try to make it to the
end..)

http://www.wimp.com/jumpinjive/

Just like the description for the clip says, that IS insane! They just don't
play (or dance!) like that any more.

Right on... looks like a very young Chick Webb on the drums.

The clip is from 1943 and Chick died in 1939. J.C. Heard was Calloway's
drummer at the time of this performance.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 11/1/10 9:06 PM, Steve Turner wrote:
Right on... looks like a very young Chick Webb on the drums.

The clip is from 1943 and Chick died in 1939. J.C. Heard was Calloway's
drummer at the time of this performance.


Thank you, sir.
I was wondering, because I don't remember ever seeing Webb with a
mustache.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Leon" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

How long do you suppose it would take (in actual hours) to "administer"
one more ceiling fan into the equation? We're not talking about doing
the actual installation. We're talking about paperwork.

So, how long?
---------
$750 for your contractor.

Since I would have to acquaint myself with the job, I'd want $2K as an
inspection fee, then could give you an educated guess, but $750 seems a
little light, especially since I detest paperwork.

Lew




Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light boxes
be installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a fan is added
later.


Then you are talking some where under $175 per light box. The extra
ceiling fans include bracing and additional wiring for the fan and light
to run separately.


You're talking about materials. The OP was talking about ADMINISTRATIVE
FEES.

"Leon" wrote in message
First off, changes after the fact do cost money. FWIW I am having a home
built by a know builder. Adding 1 more ceiling fan to the previously
agreed on 8, resulted in the extra price for the fan, plus a $350 admin.
fee. They absorbed the admin. fee with out me asking, as a courtesy.

Don't know about the cost of $750 but I can envision a dye change costing
extra money. At the very least, it means twice the amount of spray booth and
spray gun clean up effort. It might also mean ordering and possibly another
trip to the supplier for different dye. Might be the same gun being used for
the job, so it would have to be thoroughly cleaned for a different dye. As
you said, there's the administrative cost, new paperwork, ecetera.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
eb.com...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

How long do you suppose it would take (in actual hours) to
"administer" one more ceiling fan into the equation? We're not
talking about doing the actual installation. We're talking about
paperwork. So, how long?
---------
$750 for your contractor.

Since I would have to acquaint myself with the job, I'd want $2K
as an inspection fee, then could give you an educated guess, but
$750 seems a little light, especially since I detest paperwork.

Lew




Sounds to me like the homeowner should ask that all ceiling light
boxes be installed with whatever bracing is needed JUST IN CASE a
fan is added later.


Then you are talking some where under $175 per light box. The extra
ceiling fans include bracing and additional wiring for the fan and
light to run separately.


You're talking about materials. The OP was talking about
ADMINISTRATIVE FEES.

And you tried to change it to a spec - which would have been an initial
spec. The response above is perfectly appropriate to a change in a spec. I
think you're wandering off the discussion at hand - and going in circles.

--

-Mike-

Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients
think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to
think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they
normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain
surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.

(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently
flexible to cover one of their screwups....)

When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate,
teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved.
That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time
they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my
answer will be "no".

To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part
of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more
money...."

I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.

I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's
boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my
experience from that time.

Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the
answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand
that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.

They often times find some kind of ragged **** on sale somewhere, and
want me to incorporate that into their work someway.

The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a
ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted
ceiling.

Let's take a look:

You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the
max allowed boxes installed before this fan.

So you need a new circuit.

You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that
will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown
and pay the new plan review fee.

Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!)
filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the
fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex,
and installs a new J box.

He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down
to reach later.

He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker.
He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.

He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up.
He assembles the fan and hangs it.

He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation.
Installation complete.

So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a
drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what
you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of
electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker,
and a couple more incidentals.

You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your
schedule.

To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is really
cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.

But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan
for $125!"

Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at
your numbers? Nope.

You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."

I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the
machine in gear and on target. No distractions.

Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are
possible with more money...."

With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO
change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't
take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed
going to pay for it.

Robert

"Mike Marlow" wrote:

-snip-

You're talking about materials. The OP was talking about
ADMINISTRATIVE FEES.

Actually- the OP [Sam] asked how come his guy wanted $750 for a job he
didn't think should cost that much. He asked- but hasn't returned
so we don't know if they were administrative fees or not.

Jim

I hate top-posting, but hate 1-liners at the end of long posts more.

I can't snip any of it because I think it is the perfect answer.

So, nailshooter, can you do a roof near Schenectady, NY next
spring?g

Jim


" wrote:

Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients
think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to
think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they
normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain
surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.

(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently
flexible to cover one of their screwups....)

When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate,
teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved.
That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time
they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my
answer will be "no".

To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part
of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more
money...."

I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.

I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's
boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my
experience from that time.

Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the
answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand
that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.

They often times find some kind of ragged **** on sale somewhere, and
want me to incorporate that into their work someway.

The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a
ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted
ceiling.

Let's take a look:

You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the
max allowed boxes installed before this fan.

So you need a new circuit.

You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that
will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown
and pay the new plan review fee.

Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!)
filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the
fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex,
and installs a new J box.

He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down
to reach later.

He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker.
He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.

He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up.
He assembles the fan and hangs it.

He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation.
Installation complete.

So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a
drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what
you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of
electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker,
and a couple more incidentals.

You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your
schedule.

To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is really
cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.

But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan
for $125!"

Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at
your numbers? Nope.

You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."

I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the
machine in gear and on target. No distractions.

Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are
possible with more money...."

With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO
change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't
take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed
going to pay for it.

Robert

wrote

To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part
of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more
money...."

I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.

There ya go. A scared ****less client is a good client.

I like your attitude/methods Robert. Communication is the key.

On 11/2/2010 4:23 AM, wrote:
Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients
think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

From my basic contract:

4. There will no deviations from the work specified herein unless agreed
to by Change Order in writing by both parties.

4.1 A Change Order is any change to the original plans and/or
specifications. All change orders need to be agreed upon in writing,
including cost, additional time considerations, approximate dates when
the work will begin and be completed and signed by both parties.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

-snip-

You're talking about materials. The OP was talking about
ADMINISTRATIVE FEES.

Actually- the OP [Sam] asked how come his guy wanted $750 for a job he
didn't think should cost that much. He asked- but hasn't returned
so we don't know if they were administrative fees or not.


I appreciate the correction Jim. Had not really followed this thread from
the original post, so I missed that.

--

-Mike-

CHANGE ORDER – COST PLUS
Date:

Owner:
Street Address
City, State Postal Code
Contact Telephone

Contractor:
Company Address
Company Phone

For the Project:
Project Address:

The Owner authorizes the Contractor to make the following changes to the
above project:

Description:

Attachments:

The following is based on information provided by the contractor.

Contract Sum
Original Contract Amount: $

Revised Contract Amount Prior to this Change Order: $

Cost for this Change Order: $

Multiplied by (Number) Percent = $

The New Contract Total including this Change Order: $

Contract Time:

Change in Contract Time for this Change Order: Days


Date of Substantial Commencement for this Change Order shall be: Date


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Nov 2, 8:55*am, Swingman wrote:
On 11/2/2010 4:23 AM, wrote:

Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. *Clients
think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

*From my basic contract:

4. There will no deviations from the work specified herein unless agreed
to by Change Order in writing by both parties.

4.1 A Change Order is any change to the original plans and/or
specifications. All change orders need to be agreed upon in writing,
including cost, additional time considerations, approximate dates when
the work will begin and be completed and signed by both parties.

5. CHANGES TO THE PROJECT, CONTRACT PRICE OR CONTRACT TIME

A Change Order is a written order prepared by the Contractor and
signed by the Owner and Contractor, issued after execution of the
Contract, authorizing a change in the Project, Contract Price or the
Contract Time. The Project, Contract Price and the Contract Time may
be modified only by a Change Order. Any change or proposed change
submitted to the Owner for review and signature must be reviewed and
finalized within a reasonable period of time.

Any changes not required by unforeseen conditions or beyond the
control of the Owner shall be priced according to the Contractor's
normal pricing policy, and shall include an administrative charge of
$100. All Change Orders shall be priced prior to presentation to the
Owner. No portion of the Project shall be suspended or delayed in
contemplation of a proposed Change Order. The Owner shall make
payment in full upon his signing of the Change Order.

If the Contractor is delayed at any time in the progress of the
Project by any act or neglect of the Owner, his agents, or by any
separate contractor employed by the Owner, or by changes ordered in
the Project, or by labor disputes, fire, unusual delay in
transportation, adverse weather not reasonably anticipated,
unavoidable casualties, or any causes beyond the Contractor's control,
or by delay authorized by the Owner pending mediation, then the
Contract Time shall be extended by Change Order for such reasonable
time as the Owner and the Contractor determine.

Any supplemental design work requested by the Owner shall be performed
at a rate of $150./hour.

The Contractor does not anticipate any Change Order extras at the time
of Contract signing, and will not request any Change Order extras,
except for Owner requests, latent and concealed conditions, and
required construction differing materially from the Contract.


And on a different topic, but still an all time favorite contract
clauses:

The Owner shall not bring other contractors, onto the job during the
course of the Project. If the Owner desires to have additional work
performed by the subcontractor's hired by the Contractor within one
year of Project completion, the Contractor's written authorization
must be received prior to the start of the additional work.

R

wrote in message
...
Reading this, it reminds me of how much I hate change orders. Clients
think you are screwing them when you quote a price, unless it is free.

Your guys hate them since as single cell organisms they are forced to
think around a new aspect instead of trudging through the day as they
normally do. My primadonnas don't like them because as brain
surgeons/skilled workers, they may not have their mind right.

(Funny... they can always get their mind right to and be imminently
flexible to cover one of their screwups....)

When I do a remodel or extensive repair, I sit down and educate,
teach, inform, and go over all aspects of the processes involved.
That includes change orders. I always tell them that by they time
they want to change something, they may be "too late", or that my
answer will be "no".

To scare the absolute living crap out of them, I always end that part
of the sermon with "of course, ALL things are possible with more
money...."

I have remarkably few requests for changes to the proscribed work.

I did a few hundred thousand feet of office finish out in the 80's
boom. I incorporated a pitch that I still use today based on my
experience from that time.

Unless it is convenient to me and they are willing to pay for it, the
answer is "no". I am not inflexible, but clients don't understand
that good contractors work on a schedule, and the tighter the better.

They often times find some kind of ragged **** on sale somewhere, and
want me to incorporate that into their work someway.

The ceiling fan is a great example. Say your client drags home a
ceiling fan from the Borg and has to get it installed in the vaulted
ceiling.

Let's take a look:

You know that your *approved* electrical plans say that they have the
max allowed boxes installed before this fan.

So you need a new circuit.

You will have to make and submit an updated drawing to the City, that
will take 10 more days to approve after you drive the plans downtown
and pay the new plan review fee.

Your electrician has to crawl across scissored ceiling joists (scary!)
filled with insulation and A/C lines to get to the new location of the
fan. He blocks up the fan location, and runs another 50' of romex,
and installs a new J box.

He runs the line to the wall over the circuit box, then drops it down
to reach later.

He turns off all the power to the house, and adds a circuit breaker.
He attaches the new line, and tests it for power.

He goes out to the truck and gets his extra tall ladder and sets up.
He assembles the fan and hangs it.

He attaches the electricity and checks for proper installation.
Installation complete.

So you have lost hours of your time creating and resubmitting a
drawing, taking it to the code compliance office, and going over what
you want from your electrician. You have cost of about 6 hours of
electrician's time, a handy or J box, 50' of romex, a circuit breaker,
and a couple more incidentals.

You may have also had to put off painters, cleaners, etc. in your
schedule.

To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 is really
cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.

But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan
for $125!"

Do you take them to contractor school to show them how you arrive at
your numbers? Nope.

You just say "no, remember, we talked about this type of thing..."

I'm not that flexible anymore. I nail down everything, then get the
machine in gear and on target. No distractions.

Unless of course I remember my own saying , "of course, ALL things are
possible with more money...."

With enough we are all friends. Personally though, I would prefer NO
change orders at all. I never nickel and dime clients, and I don't
take it from them. If it is a substantial change, they are indeed
going to pay for it.

Robert


Excellent example Robert!

But in my case, I'm the one wanting to add the ceiling fan, we were still
waiting to see of our proposed price for the house would be accepted by the
builder. Admittedly there are costs of adding to the plans and cost of
labor and materials but nothing in the way of actual building the house had
taken place yet.

Additionally the original prices for the ceiling fans were $150 each. To
add the price of the extra fan was $150 + $175 for blocking and wiring+ $350
admin.

I was perfectly willing to pay the whole sum but the builder's salesman
intervened before presenting me with those figures and "he" got the builder
to waive the $350 admin fee.

On Nov 2, 11:41*am, Smitty Two wrote:
Refusing to lose
money on a job constitutes greed, something that doesn't serve my
long-term interests well.

Yo! Prosperity is legal and encouraged! How else could you send money
to foreign aid?

On 11/2/10 4:23 AM, wrote:
To me, $350 is cheap. Your people want a warranty! $350 isreally
cheap. Should be $750 or better for something with new circuits, etc.

But their response? "But Robert, Home Depot says they will hang a fan
for $125!"


I had someone give me that line before.
I smiled and said, "Oh that's fine, I fix their mistakes all the time,
but I still charge the same, so you can pay both of us, or just me."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Nov 2, 9:17*am, "Leon" wrote:

But in my case, I'm the one wanting to add the ceiling fan, we were still
waiting to see of our proposed price for the house would be accepted by the
builder. *Admittedly there are costs of adding to the plans and cost of
labor and materials but nothing in the way of actual building the house had
taken place yet.

But Leon, that's all the difference in the world. If a shovel hasn't
been turned, to me, you are still in the negotiating aspect. No other
schedules have been disrupted or modified, no materials need to be
verified as to compatibility, or any of that other stuff.

You are doing what you need to do now, not while in process.
Completely different from my example. I wouldn't charge an admin fee
upfront while we were still wrangling over prices since I could see
for myself what it would cost to make a change, and charge just that
much. After all, you want to get the job, right?

It may have been, (Lordy... it's my sales background....) that the
"waiving of the fee" was a good sales tactic concocted by the sales
rep.

Or, it may have just been common sense on their part.

I was reflecting on the folks that want to change horses after the
race has started.

Robert

Smitty Two wrote:


Refusing to lose money on a job constitutes greed, something that
doesn't serve my long-term interests well.

I guess we would have to differ on what constitues greed, but it doesn't
really matter - you should run your business as you see fit.

--

-Mike-

On Nov 2, 5:38*pm, "
wrote:


I am never a smart ass to my clients. [snip]

That is sooooo hard sometimes.

My response to them is: *"Wow... that's a great price! *If you are
sure they can do it for that price, I would wait until we are finished
and then call them right away! *They must have some special deal cut
with someone because of their volume".

"Well, the installer they had 3 installers ago, last month, he did an
okay job, but I have NO idea who they have doing the installs now."


And if they call me later, I don't gloat. *

That all depends on how it went and the kind of client. Sometimes I do
gloat. I am weak. Can't help myself.
" What did I tell you?" sometimes just slips out. Maybe once a
year.....
If they ridiculed MY price, I WILL gloat.


I don't ever bad mouth the other contractor(s) either. *[snip]

I'm there on that one. No need to butcher the competition, many will
do that themselves...the good ones, well, they don't deserve to be
butchered. I have never minded losing a gig to a credible opponent.
Amazing how close our quotes can be. Once, on a $14,000 job we were
100 bucks apart.
For that reason, I like some of the European quote systems. Get 3
quotes TELL them you're getting 3. Toss high and low. Gets rid of
gougers and low-ballers.

I don't get any satisfaction or remuneration out of being right.

Me neither.

I admit though, I DO love to hear, "damnit Robert, something told me
we should have let you handle this".

How could you not?

On Nov 2, 7:07 am, Swingman wrote:
CHANGE ORDER – COST PLUS

* SNIP *

Get a cup of coffee... this is a long one.

A couple of thoughts....

All valid points in the post Karl, as are the points preceding. On my
master contract (going from memory - not at my own computer) I have
another caveat that is somewhere in this neighborhood:

"While this Change Order affects the original scope of work and its
cost, it does not affect the Terms and Conditions of the original
Contract. All Terms and Conditions of the original Contract, unless
otherwise specified within this Change Order will be observed and in
effect as agreed to by both parties as if no modifications had been
made to the original Contract."

My contract delineates that "The Scope of Work to be Performed" has
all the details, including time needed to perform the work. It
includes the cost of work to be performed as well as materials needed
to perform the work.

When I built anything of substance, I kept a book of finish selections
and spelled out where each paint color went, each tile selection, each
bit of wallpaper, carpet, wood floor, deck stain, counter tops, etc.
This book of finishes became part of the contract by reference to "see
finish selections". My paint suppliers are required by me (now they
are printed automatically) to write the paint number on each can
received to match up with the book. Same with wallpaper, etc. I made
a copy for the client, but kept the original with their initials and
date under each selection under every selection.

My biggest problem when building a house (only built 5) was the people
changing their minds about finishes and colors. (I ran back screaming
to commercial my first chance to get away from houses.)

The Terms and Conditions part of my contract specify where to pay,
when to pay, and *a lot* of language warning the client that under no
circumstances will they screw around with me or our agreement. It has
the standard exculpatory language to protect me, but it also sets for
that if I have to hire any kind of help for payment, they will pay not
only the amount invoiced, but all related fees required to collect
including MY time.

(As a sidebar, I have tested this clause. I can recover the amount
needed to collect such as attorney's fees, etc. I was not allowed to
collect money for my time in that particular case because it wasn't an
exorbitant amount and the judge decided that should be part of my cost
of doing business.)

I found it necessary to add the "from memory clause" above into my
contract as an attorney friend of mine reviewed my contract and told
me that would be a good idea since **technically** I had changed the
contract without limiting the scope of change.

Think about it.... yes, we agreed to the add on, and its cost. Yes,
we agreed it increased the price. We further spelled out the time
needed to complete the specified work.

But... did we agree to the same exculpatory language? Did we spell
out the exact method and time of payment and what would happen if
those tenets weren't observed? In the case of any overlapping work
touched on by the contract, was/is it reasonable for the client to
assume that the new work would be treated differently in any way other
than specified in the contract? Will you have to listen to the
dreaded "oh... I didn't understand that... I thought this was
separate". Since it is more money, how will it affect the pay
schedule? You need to make sure the additional work and additional
money are completely protected.

You get the drift.

Over the years I have seen so damn many of my contracting amigos take
it in the shorts because they didn't have the legal experience to
fight off an unruly client. One of them in particular had trouble
with a client that paid the contract amount for work just fine, but
since the terms and conditions of payment for the change orders
weren't spelled out, the judge chastised him in small claims court for
not spelling out the terms of payment. That judge considered the
change order (careful to point out this out here; it was an ADD ON,
NOT a modification like a paint color change) to be a completely
different issue, and a completely different contract. Sadly, one with
no teeth for my amigo. The judge told my amigo that he thought the
change order resembled an invoice, not a component of a larger
contract.

While every attorney will look at any contract and tell you they can
break it easily, I haven't had one of mine broken yet. I am diligent,
and I have been tested.

But the amount of paper work and contractual expertise we have to have
these days to do the smallest thing is amazing to me.

One thing I have found out though; if you have a client that is going
to screw you, no amount of paperwork and legal blather will save you.
Nothing will. You will get screwed.

All a good contract does is to keep everyone on the same page, remind
them of what was agreed to, and to provide reference for how the job
is to be handled.

There is an attorney here in town that has something like 14 liens
against his home.... and he has another group of judgments as well.
He is legendary, and he does well until he has someone like me that
files a mechanic's lien against the house BEFORE I start a major
remodel, and modify it along the project time line.

When he finds someone like me (he hasn't found me, though!) he is
screwed. But there are plenty of guys ready to jump into the briar
patch with him.

I still remember when I did 99% of my business on a handshake. Man,
does that seem like a eon ago now.

Robert

On Nov 3, 4:34*am, "
wrote:
On Nov 2, 7:07 am, Swingman wrote:

CHANGE ORDER – COST PLUS

* SNIP *

Get a cup of coffee... this is a long one.

A couple of thoughts....

All valid points in the post Karl, as are the points preceding. *On my
master contract (going from memory - not at my own computer) I have
another caveat that is somewhere in this neighborhood:

"While this Change Order affects the original scope of work and its
cost, it does not affect the Terms and Conditions of the original
Contract. *All Terms and Conditions of the original Contract, unless
otherwise specified within this Change Order will be observed and in
effect as agreed to by both parties as if no modifications had been
made to the original Contract."

My contract delineates that "The Scope of Work to be Performed" has
all the details, including time needed to perform the work. *It
includes the cost of work to be performed as well as materials needed
to perform the work.

When I built anything of substance, I kept a book of finish selections
and spelled out where each paint color went, each tile selection, each
bit of wallpaper, carpet, wood floor, deck stain, counter tops, etc.
This book of finishes became part of the contract by reference to "see
finish selections". *My paint suppliers are required by me (now they
are printed automatically) to write the paint number on each can
received to match up with the book. *Same with wallpaper, etc. *I made
a copy for the client, but kept the original with their initials and
date under each selection under every selection.

My biggest problem when building a house (only built 5) was the people
changing their minds about finishes and colors. *(I ran back screaming
to commercial my first chance to get away from houses.)

The Terms and Conditions part of my contract specify where to pay,
when to pay, and *a lot* of language warning the client that under no
circumstances will they screw around with me or our agreement. *It has
the standard exculpatory language to protect me, but it also sets for
that if I have to hire any kind of help for payment, they will pay not
only the amount invoiced, but all related fees required to collect
including MY time.

(As a sidebar, I have tested this clause. *I can recover the amount
needed to collect such as attorney's fees, etc. *I was not allowed to
collect money for my time in that particular case because it wasn't an
exorbitant amount and the judge decided that should be part of my cost
of doing business.)

I found it necessary to add the "from memory clause" above into my
contract as an attorney friend of mine reviewed my contract and told
me that would be a good idea since **technically** I had changed the
contract without limiting the scope of change.

Think about it.... yes, we agreed to the add on, and its cost. *Yes,
we agreed it increased the price. * We further spelled out the time
needed to complete the specified work.

But... did we agree to the same exculpatory language? *Did we spell
out the exact method and time of payment and what would happen if
those tenets weren't observed? *In the case of any overlapping work
touched on by the contract, was/is it reasonable for the client to
assume that the new work would be treated differently in any way other
than specified in the contract? *Will you have to listen to the
dreaded "oh... I didn't understand that... I thought this was
separate". *Since it is more money, how will it affect the pay
schedule? *You need to make sure the additional work and additional
money are completely protected.

You get the drift.

Over the years I have seen so damn many of my contracting amigos take
it in the shorts because they didn't have the legal experience to
fight off an unruly client. *One of them in particular had trouble
with a client that paid the contract amount for work just fine, but
since the terms and conditions of payment for the change orders
weren't spelled out, the judge chastised him in small claims court for
not spelling out the terms of payment. *That judge considered the
change order (careful to point out this out here; it was an ADD ON,
NOT a modification like a paint color change) to be a completely
different issue, and a completely different contract. *Sadly, one with
no teeth for my amigo. *The judge told my amigo that he thought the
change order resembled an invoice, not a component of a larger
contract.

While every attorney will look at any contract and tell you they can
break it easily, I haven't had one of mine broken yet. *I am diligent,
and I have been tested.

But the amount of paper work and contractual expertise we have to have
these days to do the smallest thing is amazing to me.

One thing I have found out though; if you have a client that is going
to screw you, no amount of paperwork and legal blather will save you.
Nothing will. *You will get screwed.

All a good contract does is to keep everyone on the same page, remind
them of what was agreed to, and to provide reference for how the job
is to be handled.

There is an attorney here in town that has something like 14 liens
against his home.... and he has another group of judgments as well.
He is legendary, and he does well until he has someone like me that
files a mechanic's lien against the house BEFORE I start a major
remodel, and modify it along the project time line.

When he finds someone like me (he hasn't found me, though!) he is
screwed. *But there are plenty of guys ready to jump into the briar
patch with him.

I still remember when I did 99% of my business on a handshake. *Man,
does that seem like a eon ago now.

What did you charge for the handshake?

On of the only times I got screwed was on a handshake. It was pretty
weird as I was working as a subcontractor for a guy who had always
been my subcontractor and we had never had any sort of problem. I
didn't realize that handshakes were directional!

Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could
be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?

R

On 11/3/2010 7:53 AM, RicodJour wrote:

Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could
be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?

That's a new one on me also ... being constantly required to obtain
releases, I'm pretty familiar with Chapter 53 of the Texas Property Code
and it seems on the surface that the notice requirements would preclude
that.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the keyboard, and since
it was surely written by the breed, there are undoubtedly trapdoors,
intended or otherwise.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 11/3/2010 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 11/3/2010 7:53 AM, RicodJour wrote:

Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could
be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?

That's a new one on me also ... being constantly required to obtain
releases, I'm pretty familiar with Chapter 53 of the Texas Property Code
and it seems on the surface that the notice requirements would preclude
that.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the keyboard, and since
it was surely written by the breed, there are undoubtedly trapdoors,
intended or otherwise.

I forget to add that I do recall a provision that when working with a
retainage, a lien can be filed at inception on the retainage, but I was
under the impression that it also took some type of notice and agreement
of all parties ... then again, it seems a pretty antagonistic thing to
do a client, but the guy in Robert's example sounds like he deserves it.



--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Nov 3, 9:58*am, Swingman wrote:
On 11/3/2010 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:

On 11/3/2010 7:53 AM, RicodJour wrote:

Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could
be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?

That's a new one on me also ... being constantly required to obtain
releases, I'm pretty familiar with Chapter 53 of the Texas Property Code
and it seems on the surface that the notice requirements would preclude
that.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the keyboard, and since
it was surely written by the breed, there are undoubtedly trapdoors,
intended or otherwise.

I forget to add that I do recall a provision that when working with a
retainage, a lien can be filed at inception on the retainage, but I was
under the impression that it also took some type of notice and agreement
of all parties ... then again, it seems a pretty antagonistic thing to
do a client, but the guy in Robert's example sounds like he deserves it.



Wouldn't touch the guy with a backhoe, no matter how potentially
lucrative the project or what protective clauses were in the
contract. The guy should be disbarred, and I'm sure eventually will
be.

R

On Nov 3, 9:58*am, Swingman wrote:
On 11/3/2010 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:

On 11/3/2010 7:53 AM, RicodJour wrote:

Good post. One question. I didn't know that a mechanic's lien could
be recorded prior to work being done. How is that and where are you?

That's a new one on me also ... being constantly required to obtain
releases, I'm pretty familiar with Chapter 53 of the Texas Property Code
and it seems on the surface that the notice requirements would preclude
that.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the keyboard, and since
it was surely written by the breed, there are undoubtedly trapdoors,
intended or otherwise.

I forget to add that I do recall a provision that when working with a
retainage, a lien can be filed at inception on the retainage, but I was
under the impression that it also took some type of notice and agreement
of all parties ... then again, it seems a pretty antagonistic thing to
do a client, but the guy in Robert's example sounds like he deserves it.



Wouldn't touch the guy with a backhoe, no matter how potentially
lucrative the project or what protective clauses were in the
contract. The guy should be disbarred, and I'm sure eventually will
be.

R

On 11/3/2010 1:39 PM, wrote:

f Norwest Banks when
they were here. As a matter of course, we filed a lien against the
property before allowing any work to start, because in Texas the
oldest liens (first filed) are considered superior to any subsequent
liens.

A different kettle of fish though, eh? ... a Lender has an entire legal
pallette of liens that a mechanic/contractor/materialman (unless I'm
missing something in the Texas Property Code) does not have access to,
from Deeds of Trust, to the liens of which you speak?

Then again, as every lawyer who I've tried to talk into suing a bank for
me has noted: In law school, if the question involves a bank, the answer
is automatically "the bank wins".

I can't get away with that.

It's a jungle out there.

And it's a lawyer's game and you can't win, even if you prevail.

IME, and it often happens that, the more contractual diarrhea used in
trying to protect yourself against all eventualities, the more you
expose your intent to adverse interpretation in a court of law.

I've learned to do everything I can to keep it simple, or I walk away
.... Bill Clinton's meaning of "is", notwithstanding.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Sam Takoy" wrote in message
...
Hi,

We are getting kitchen cabinets made by a local custom cabinet maker.
The total cost of the project is about $20k.

We have just asked him whether the two island pieces can be stained with
a different dyes (he uses dyes rather than stains). He said that it
would cost an extra $750.

I did not expect to incur an extra cost here, so I was very surprised by
this answer. Before I ask a follow up question, I'd like to educate
myself as to what might the reason for the extra cost. My naive thought
was that there should not be an extra cost to closing a jar, putting it
back on the shelf and opening a different jar, but clearly there is more
to it than that.

What is it?

Thanks in advance,

Sam


First off, changes after the fact do cost money. FWIW I am having a home
built by a know builder. Adding 1 more ceiling fan to the previously
agreed on 8, resulted in the extra price for the fan, plus a $350 admin.
fee. They absorbed the admin. fee with out me asking, as a courtesy.


An "admin fee" of $350??? If they hadn't waived it, you definitely
should've asked what the hell kind of "admin" they were talking about.



Its a _contract_, silly.. At least $250 of that is for the lawyer to review
the language. wry grin

On Nov 3, 3:43 pm, Swingman wrote:

A different kettle of fish though, eh? ... a Lender has an entire legal
pallette of liens that a mechanic/contractor/materialman (unless I'm
missing something in the Texas Property Code) does not have access to,
from Deeds of Trust, to the liens of which you speak?

I must confess that I don't remember the exact name of the lien type
that was filed. In the case of the Lender action, Norwest filed a
lien equal to the amount of construction as a second position to the
lot or land loan.

In some cases, the lot/land equity was actually deeded over to Norwest
as a down payment in lieu of cash. These transactions were handled
differently since Norwest held title to the real estate itself, and it
held the only position of interest against the real estate. With that
in mind, the Norwest would pay off the outstanding balance of a lot/
land, assuming the superior position. The master lien would be
modified (increased) as the construction continued until finished.

Since Norwest's loan was not on a house, they had to file the lien as
a lien against real property with proposed improvements (as you
know). At the end of the process we took the clear title and flipped
the construction loan including the lot and recast it as a permanent
"real estate" loan.

I had a few of my remodeling cohorts that (when they were still in
business... this economy finished them off) that filed a M&W lien
against a project before it started. Only prudent when you are doing
$80 - $250K additions.

Their liens were not considered valid for the full amount of the
project as while **in process** they had not performed the full amount
of work. The strategy there was to have the lien in place to protect
their position in the line of creditors, and if/when it went to court
the judge would modify the lien to reflect actual monies owed.

Texas real estate law is set up to protect the homeowner and in many
ways leaves everyone else (except the banks) out in the cold. Since
only the superior lien holder can force foreclosure, and only for the
reason of non-payment (not only the note, but insurance and taxes if
collected by them in escrow) a contractor that is in second position
has little power.

You can file all the liens you want and they will just sit in the
system. No harm will come to the deadbeat client.

That is why the banks and lenders have entire legal firms that
specialize in Texas real estate law constantly review, update, and
implement new documentation and strategies.

Then again, as every lawyer who I've tried to talk into suing a bank for
me has noted: In law school, if the question involves a bank, the answer
is automatically "the bank wins".

I can't get away with that.

Truer word were never spoken. The banks know the legal system/real
estate law so well that they can create a Gordian knot that can't be
unraveled by anyone but them. And one little hickey in your
paperwork... on small mistake... it can render your paperwork invalid
in some instances.

And it's a lawyer's game and you can't win, even if you prevail.

Can I get an AMEN on that one, brother? Not possible. Even if you
"win", you are lucky to be made whole, and if you are made whole, how
much goes to your attorney? And there is a lot of back and forth on
how much of your attorney's fee are "reasonable" and how much you
should allow as a normal cost of doing business for collections.

IME, and it often happens that, the more contractual diarrhea used in
trying to protect yourself against all eventualities, the more you
expose your intent to adverse interpretation in a court of law.

I agree. With plethora of unrealistic legal shows on TV, many now
think they are junior lawyers. I hear things like "I'm not sure I'm
comfortable with the language you used here" and other such drivel.
Some don't even understand what they are reading in the first place.
I think some believe it is a game, and the more aspects you provide
for them to consider, the more challenged they feel.

I've learned to do everything I can to keep it simple, or I walk away
... Bill Clinton's meaning of "is", notwithstanding.

We are certainly on the same path. I only do work for one attorney,
and he is such a great guy you would never know he was one. Others
are too argumentative, and LOVE to split hairs and interpret every
aspect of a project or repair. My current contract has the basic
legal caveats and verbiage in it, and no more. It is a simple two
page contract, with no tiny writing on it.

While this may sound arrogant, it isn't. I look at my meeting with my
proposed client as a mutual interview. I want to see if we are a good
fit for each other. If I smell trouble or there is an overly
aggressive know-it-all in the mix, I simply tell them "I don't think
we can help you" and leave.

Life is too short. The legal system is a long and winding road with
no end. Who needs the aggravation?

Robert