My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

On Sep 7, 10:50*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!


One alternative is to use X10. These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.

On Sep 7, 11:11*am, wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:50*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

One alternative is to use X10. * These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. * They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. * So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. * That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. *It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. *The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. *You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. *I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. *The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. * The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. * It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. *Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. * If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. *For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks. I'll look into it.

The fixture dad bought has all of the dusk-to-dawn, timer, etc.
features that you mentioned, which is what he wanted, so that's good.

"The next part you need is an X10 wall switch...when someone walks
by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver.
The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it
and turns the light on."

I assume the switch fits in a standard box, right? The current switch
setup is 2 switches in one box: A STSP switch for the outside light
and a 3-way switch for a switched outlet. Best case is both switches
fit in the existing box - and still match. Is that doable - barring
any "this is an old house" - issues?

One more question: With most motion detector set-ups, you can override
the sensor by toggling the switch within 3 seconds to force the light
to be on all the time. Does it work the same way with the x10
switches? Can you turn the light on constantly with a toggle and then
reset it to motion-sense with another toggle?

On Sep 7, 10:11*am, wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:50*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

One alternative is to use X10. * These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. * They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. * So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. * That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. *It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. *The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. *You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. *I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. *The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. * The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. * It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. *Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. * If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. *For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just got the iphone app for x10, now I have to get a control unit.
x10s site is tacky and hard to navigate.

On 9/7/2010 10:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

It has to do with how many zones are formed by the optics in the sensor.
Better ones have more zones and will be more sensitive to someone
walking directly towards the sensor.



The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Sep 7, 11:11 am, wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:50 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

One alternative is to use X10. These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks. I'll look into it.

The fixture dad bought has all of the dusk-to-dawn, timer, etc.
features that you mentioned, which is what he wanted, so that's good.

"The next part you need is an X10 wall switch...when someone walks
by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver.
The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it
and turns the light on."

I assume the switch fits in a standard box, right? The current switch
setup is 2 switches in one box: A STSP switch for the outside light
and a 3-way switch for a switched outlet. Best case is both switches
fit in the existing box - and still match. Is that doable - barring
any "this is an old house" - issues?

I think you're best served by not using X-10 - and this advice comes from
someone who owns every piece of X-10 gear ever made and uses it daily (along
with Jeff Volp's XTB booster - a must for any X-10 setup). It's overkill
for this app and is likely to introduce more problems than it solves. One
thing you might find is that there's no neutral at the switch - although the
presence of a nearby switched outlet means there's probably one nearby.
It's also important if you're going to use CFL bulbs.

CFL's don't play nice with X-10 (as well as a lot of other devices that draw
power from 110VAC line). If you intend on using them, beware that many take
a long time to warm up and are basically unsuitable for walkway lighting.
Some CFl's even relight themselves when you turn them off under X-10
control - very annoying! By the time the bulb comes up to max illumination,
you're long past the sensor and the light.

I'd pigtail the unit you have with some lamp cord to see if it works with
CFLs before going through the hassle of mounting it. If the lights are
going to be on for a few hours, it would pay to use CFLs. If the lights
will be strictly motion sensor operated, then normal floods would be the
choice of bulb.

One more question: With most motion detector set-ups, you can override
the sensor by toggling the switch within 3 seconds to force the light
to be on all the time. Does it work the same way with the x10
switches? Can you turn the light on constantly with a toggle and then
reset it to motion-sense with another toggle?

Ha. Not that I know of, but there's always something new under the sun.
X-10 just requires too many pieces to do what a dedicated motion sensor
light does. I have a full set of X-10 motion detector floodlights sitting
in a box in the attic because they were not as easy to use as dedicated
motion detector floods. I use dedicated, self-contained units for the
driveway fitted with tungsten floods, but I also have CFL fixtures that are
X-10 controlled that I had to run new wire to get them to function
correctly. None of my circa 1940 house's built-in fixtures have neutral
wires and CFLs just flash away like strobe lights in such circuits with X-10
switches. X-10 trickles a tiny bit of current through tungsten filament
bulbs to operate. CFL don't pass that trickle current - they just absorb it
until enough builds up to flash the lamp. Very annoying. Sometimes, the
flashing is enough to activate the X-10 "current sense" switching and the
light comes back on several seconds after you turn it off.

It could be that your units will be mounted so that they really will detect
motion where you want it detected, but units that allow you to swivel the
detector head are much better. Read the instructions carefully regarding
neutral connections. I think you're going to be good to go because the
switched out *should* require a neutral in the same gang box, but only your
tester knows for sure. Beware that lots of tyro electricians mistakenly use
a ground wire when they should be using a neutral - your box may be that
way - it's a sin I've seen too many times to count.

--
Bobby G.

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

You could use an emitter / detector across the path. Or, put a big pile
of gravel in the middle of the walkway, with a detour sign that directs
people to walk sideways for several steps to get around it.

On Sep 8, 7:01*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,





*DerbyDad03 wrote:
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

You could use an emitter / detector across the path. Or, put a big pile
of gravel in the middle of the walkway, with a detour sign that directs
people to walk sideways for several steps to get around it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"You could use an emitter / detector across the path"

Did you miss the part where I said:

"...mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back
to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built
into the fixture..."

On Sep 7, 10:20*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Sep 7, 11:11 am, wrote:





On Sep 7, 10:50 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

One alternative is to use X10. These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks. I'll look into it.

The fixture dad bought has all of the dusk-to-dawn, timer, etc.
features that you mentioned, which is what he wanted, so that's good.

"The next part you need is an X10 wall switch...when someone walks
by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver.
The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it
and turns the light on."

I assume the switch fits in a standard box, right?


Yes, it is the same size as a regular single pole switch.



The current switch
setup is 2 switches in one box: A STSP switch for the outside light
and a 3-way switch for a switched outlet. Best case is both switches
fit in the existing box - and still match. Is that doable - barring
any "this is an old house" - issues?


Yes, but the switches won't match. The X10 uses a push button switch
to turn the light on and off. I don't find it to big a big deal
though. You can find pics of them on Ebay or Smarthome, etc.





I think you're best served by not using X-10 - and this advice comes from
someone who owns every piece of X-10 gear ever made and uses it daily (along
with Jeff Volp's XTB booster - a must for any X-10 setup). *It's overkill
for this app and is likely to introduce more problems than it solves.


I don't see why it's overkill if it directly solves the problem by
securing one small motion detector to the side of the house, plugging
in a wireless receiver in any nearby outlet in the house, and
replacing one wall switch.




*One
thing you might find is that there's no neutral at the switch - although the
presence of a nearby switched outlet means there's probably one nearby.


The neutral is only necessary if you want to use CFL lights. The
standard X10 wall switch doesn't require a neutral. And since CFLs
are not that useful for motion activated lights, this is probably a
moot point. If you want to use CFLs then you need the other X10
switch that does use a neutral and has a relay so it will work any
load.




It's also important if you're going to use CFL bulbs.

CFL's don't play nice with X-10 (as well as a lot of other devices that draw
power from 110VAC line). *If you intend on using them, beware that many take
a long time to warm up and are basically unsuitable for walkway lighting.


Which is why not having a neutral likely isn't an issue.


Some CFl's even relight themselves when you turn them off under X-10
control - very annoying!

I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the
one with no neutral. Then the CFL will partially light all the time
because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit
to power the X10 switch electronics.





*By the time the bulb comes up to max illumination,
you're long past the sensor and the light.

Yep



I'd pigtail the unit you have with some lamp cord to see if it works with
CFLs before going through the hassle of mounting it. *If the lights are
going to be on for a few hours, it would pay to use CFLs. *If the lights
will be strictly motion sensor operated, then normal floods would be the
choice of bulb.

One more question: With most motion detector set-ups, you can override
the sensor by toggling the switch within 3 seconds to force the light
to be on all the time. Does it work the same way with the x10
switches? Can you turn the light on constantly with a toggle and then
reset it to motion-sense with another toggle?

Ha. *Not that I know of, but there's always something new under the sun..


Of course you can. The X10 wall switch functions EXACTLY like the
existing switch for manual use. Push the button, the light turns
on. Push it again, the light turns off. No need to do any special
sequencing. You still have a manual switch there like before that
also responds to the X10 commands.



X-10 just requires too many pieces to do what a dedicated motion sensor
light does.

Yeah, it requires a whopping 3 items: wireless motion sensor that you
mount where you want it outside, wireless receiver that plugs in an
outlet, and a switch that replaces the existing light switch. All
that probably cost $25 and can be installed in 30 mins. And it
gives him the freedom to mount the motion sensor exactly where he
wants it. Compare that to replacing one or two outside fixtures and
it seems about the same to me in effort, but a lot less in cost. Plus
you can use any style outside fixtures you want, the existing ones or
any new ones. You're not limited to the models that come with motion
sensors built-in.




*I have a full set of X-10 motion detector floodlights sitting
in a box in the attic because they were not as easy to use as dedicated
motion detector floods. *I use dedicated, self-contained units for the
driveway fitted with tungsten floods, but I also have CFL fixtures that are
X-10 controlled that I had to run new wire to get them to function
correctly. *None of my circa 1940 house's built-in fixtures have neutral
wires and CFLs just flash away like strobe lights in such circuits with X-10
switches. *X-10 trickles a tiny bit of current through tungsten filament
bulbs to operate. *CFL don't pass that trickle current - they just absorb it
until enough builds up to flash the lamp. *Very annoying. *Sometimes, the
flashing is enough to activate the X-10 "current sense" switching and the
light comes back on several seconds after you turn it off.

That's because you used the WRONG X10 wall switch. The one with a
neutral solves that problem. As I described in my post, I have a very
similar settup and it works perfectly with two CFLs that are in the
original front door fixtures. We used CFLs because they are on from
dusk till dawn. But they are activated by the X10 motion sensor unit
that is located by the garage. That one motion detector turns on the
incandescent garage lights when motion is detected and also turns on
the front door lights at dusk.






It could be that your units will be mounted so that they really will detect
motion where you want it detected, but units that allow you to swivel the
detector head are much better.

Detectors are always better at detecting motion across their path
instead of coming toward them. That is the problem Derby has. I
don't see how swiveling the sensors mounted on the lights at the door
is going to solve his problem of a straight in sidewalk approach.






*Read the instructions carefully regarding
neutral connections. *I think you're going to be good to go because the
switched out *should* require a neutral in the same gang box, but only your
tester knows for sure. *Beware that lots of tyro electricians mistakenly use
a ground wire when they should be using a neutral - your box may be that
way - it's a sin I've seen too many times to count.

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[snip]

CFL don't pass that trickle
current - they just absorb it until enough builds up to flash the lamp.
Very annoying. Sometimes, the flashing is enough to activate the X-10
"current sense" switching and the light comes back on several seconds
after you turn it off.

X10 RECEPTICLE modules don't have the current sense "feature" but for
some strange reason still have the trickle current. A CFL won't be
completely off unless you have some other load connected too.

[snip]

--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:01 am, Smitty wrote:
In article
,





wrote:
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

You could use an emitter / detector across the path. Or, put a big pile
of gravel in the middle of the walkway, with a detour sign that directs
people to walk sideways for several steps to get around it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"You could use an emitter / detector across the path"

Did you miss the part where I said:

"...mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back
to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built
into the fixture..."


I wanted to keep the existing fixture so I mounted a sensor about 3 feet
to the side of the light and ran the wires between the joists. Since I
was going to have to add a waterproof box I decided to add a outlet as
well for the Xmas lights.

It works as intended, lights come on as soon as you step out of the door
or approach the entrance from the driveway.

The sensor is similar to the floodlight type with over 180 deg coverage.

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 08:10:00 -0700, trader4 wrote:

I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the one
with no neutral. Then the CFL will partially light all the time
because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit to
power the X10 switch electronics.


ALL X10 switches, relay or not will pass current through the load at all
times. This can partially light the CFL.

--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:



"You could use an emitter / detector across the path"

Did you miss the part where I said:

"...mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back
to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built
into the fixture..."

By cracky, I guess I did miss that part. I think by the time I got to
the 7th paragraph I figured I had the gist of it. Besides, I was eager
to make my detour sign suggestion. Seriously though, no respectable
landscape designer would put in an arrow-straight 40' path to the front
door these days. Take the opportunity to move the beginning of the path
over 10-15' feet, and put a couple of graceful curves in it. Put
landscape (plants and/or hardscape) features appropriately so the path
is forced to wind to go around them. Then you'll have your motion
sensing capability.

One way or the other, you (or your dad) might end up doing more work
than you want to. You could go wireless on the emitter / detector, but
it's still going to involve additional fiddling around. You also
mentioned cars triggering the light; I think that's going to be a major
annoyance to residents and visitors alike. (I hate it when I'm strolling
down a public sidewalk after supper and security lights start blinding
me.)

On Sep 8, 11:21*am, Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 08:10:00 -0700, trader4 wrote:
I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the one
with no neutral. * Then the CFL will partially light all the time
because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit to
power the X10 switch electronics.

ALL X10 switches, relay or not will pass current through the load at all
times. This can partially light the CFL.

--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.

The relay wont partialy pass power at all when its not triggered, I
have 3, x10 outdoor motion sensors, the old style that hard mount and
they pass no power my 10 outdoor cfl lights dont flicker at all, I
have purchased maybe 10, x10 sensors in 20 years. The interior
modules do pass some power that allows flickering.

On Sep 8, 12:44*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*DerbyDad03 wrote:

"You could use an emitter / detector across the path"

Did you miss the part where I said:

"...mounting a separate sensor someplace else and running wires back
to the fixture would be a pain. I'd really prefer something built
into the fixture..."

By cracky, I guess I did miss that part. I think by the time I got to
the 7th paragraph I figured I had the gist of it. Besides, I was eager
to make my detour sign suggestion. Seriously though, no respectable
landscape designer would put in an arrow-straight 40' path to the front
door these days. Take the opportunity to move the beginning of the path
over 10-15' feet, and put a couple of graceful curves in it. Put
landscape (plants and/or hardscape) features appropriately so the path
is forced to wind to go around them. Then you'll have your motion
sensing capability.

One way or the other, you (or your dad) might end up doing more work
than you want to. You could go wireless on the emitter / detector, but
it's still going to involve additional fiddling around. You also
mentioned cars triggering the light; I think that's going to be a major
annoyance to residents and visitors alike. (I hate it when I'm strolling
down a public sidewalk after supper and security lights start blinding
me.)

"Seriously though, no respectable landscape designer would put in
an arrow-straight 40' path to the front door these days."

I guess it all depends on the layout of the lot and dwelling, doesn't
it?

Take a look at the L shape shown he

http://gamecore3d.com/docs/sites/def...s%20Shapes.jpg

It's a bit out of scale, but the lower 2 (horizontal) squares are the
back apartment and top 2 (vertical) squares are the front apartment.
My Mom and Dad live in the back, my sister lives in front.

The area in blue to the right of the front apartment is the lawn,
driveway and walkway to front door of Dad's apartment.

"Take the opportunity to move the beginning of the path over
10-15' feet"

As per the picture, there's really only one way to move it and that
would be into the middle of the driveway.

Now, you may ask "Well, doesn't the light come on when you pull in the
driveway?" Yes, it does, but here's some more info:

Dad also owns the house next door to his, basically where the J shape
is in the picture. That house has a garage, so he parks there most
nights, especially in the winter. Therefore, he approaches his house
by walking down the sidewalk, across the front apartment, and turns
right onto his walkway, which leads him straight towards the front
door. I guess he could keep walking past his driveway and then cut
back across it to approach the front door at an angle, but that's just
a tad inconvenient, don't you think?

"You also mentioned cars triggering the light"

I only mentioned that to bolster the fact that the sensor works as
described in the literature and that the problem is the "straight on"
approach. I already lowered the sensitivity to shorten the range so it
doesn't reach the street, but that doesn't solve the problem of the
light not turning on until you are at the stoop.

On Sep 8, 1:55*pm, wrote:
On Sep 8, 12:21*pm, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 08:10:00 -0700, trader4 wrote:
I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the one
with no neutral. * Then the CFL will partially light all the time
because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit to
power the X10 switch electronics.

ALL X10 switches, relay or not will pass current through the load at all
times. This can partially light the CFL.

Nonsense. * The switches that have a neutral use that for the power to
the X10 switch electronics. * The relay is a simple mechanical one and
operates as a switch. * Please explain how current flows through an
open mechanical relay.





--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am sure the units he was talking about don't use a mechanical relay,
they use electronic switches that do have some leakage.

[snip]

Nonsense. The switches that have a neutral use that for the power to
the X10 switch electronics. The relay is a simple mechanical one and
operates as a switch. Please explain how current flows through an open
mechanical relay.

It doesn't. It flows AROUND the relay using a resistor in the module.
This might have been put there to support the module's "local control"
feature (which only half works. You can't turn the device off that way
without disabling remote control). I don't know why it's in the
receptacle module (no local control). It still is.

--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.



--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
[snip]

CFL don't pass that trickle
current - they just absorb it until enough builds up to flash the lamp.
Very annoying. Sometimes, the flashing is enough to activate the X-10
"current sense" switching and the light comes back on several seconds
after you turn it off.

X10 RECEPTICLE modules don't have the current sense "feature" but for
some strange reason still have the trickle current. A CFL won't be
completely off unless you have some other load connected too.

But not another CFL load! I just tried running two CFLs from a splitter
plugged into an appliance module and "bang-bang" both turn themselves back
on, in serial order. The load has to be something that absorbs the trickle
current completely, and that's usually a tungsten lamp, although it can be a
non-PS power supply or other type of device.

While there are many "mods" listed for turning off local current sense, I've
found that they don't eliminate the flow of trickle current into a CFL and
thus, they still flash but at least they won't spontaneously relight. It's
such a bummer that X-10 should really come out with a CFL-friendly control
module. I am surprised they haven't, given the potential scope of the
problem with the phase out of tungsten bulbs. Hmmm. Years of Usenet have
taught me to Google before bashing.

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing AM466
modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called me on the
phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said it was "noise on
the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I own that say "no
noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally unhelpful in solving the
flashing problem. Google seemed to intimate there was a new, CFL-friendly
module, but it had actually done the annoying trick of turning my search
words into a mis-labeling of a link to the plain old
flash-like-a-turn-signal AM466 appliance mod.

--
Bobby G.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

Throw it out and buy a good one.

--
LSMFT

I look outside this morning and everything was in 3D!

[snip]

I am sure the units he was talking about don't use a mechanical relay,
they use electronic switches that do have some leakage.

They DO use mechanical relays.

Here is a schematic of the appliance module: http://
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/cc/sta...uto/am486.html
Note that internal module ground is connected to the hot side of the
power, and the point marked "A" supplies power to the load regardless of
the relay.

--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.

On Sep 8, 7:22*pm, aemeijers wrote:
On 9/8/2010 7:01 AM, Smitty Two wrote:



In article
,
* *wrote:

My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

You could use an emitter / detector across the path. Or, put a big pile
of gravel in the middle of the walkway, with a detour sign that directs
people to walk sideways for several steps to get around it.

If the sensor can't be aimed, maybe the whole fixture can? Whittle a
tapered plate to put between the fixture and box to aim the sensor where
it may do some good? Once you get the angle dialed in, make a pretty one
and paint to match the other trim.

--
aem sends...

"If the sensor can't be aimed, maybe the whole fixture can?"

Not sure how this fixture would look mounted at an angle, under an
awning, right next to the front door. Maybe, just maybe, a 45 degree
angle would look OK but making a 45 degree wedge for a round mounting
plate would take some doing!

http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/9/22/53/92253467_640.jpg

I'm going to play with the X10 option at my house and see what I can
get to work. I've always wanted a sensor to turn on a front light when
I walk up the dark side of the house from the back yard and X10 sounds
like a solution for that.

It's over 300 miles to Dad's house, so I want to have everything I
need if I chose that option.

Thanks!

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Take a look at the L shape shown he

Your parents and sister live in tetris shapes? I'm out of ideas, then,
except maybe give dad a flashlight. By the time you did all that typing
you could have dug a trench and laid the wires for a remote switch.

On Sep 8, 9:07*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*DerbyDad03 wrote:
Take a look at the L shape shown he

Your parents and sister live in tetris shapes? I'm out of ideas, then,
except maybe give dad a flashlight. By the time you did all that typing
you could have dug a trench and laid the wires for a remote switch.

I'd need a long shovel. Dad lives 300 miles from me.

[snip]

But not another CFL load!

Right. The setup in my bedroom is a lamp with 100W CFL and a TV (I got a
small Visio LCD TV that is not "power amnesiac" (comes on with power))
connected to a receptacle module (SR227) which does not have "local
control" and the TV provides enough load.

[snip[

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing
AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called
me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said it
was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I own
that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally
unhelpful in solving the flashing problem.

I seldom find "customer service" to be helpful, but at least you got
someone you could talk to. I just had a really bad experience with a
wireless (CDMA) broadband carrier, where the person ignored 90% of what I
said.

Google seemed to intimate
there was a new, CFL-friendly module, but it had actually done the
annoying trick of turning my search words into a mis-labeling of a link
to the plain old flash-like-a-turn-signal AM466 appliance mod.

--
108 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

I believe in life before breakfast.

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
[snip]

But not another CFL load!

Right. The setup in my bedroom is a lamp with 100W CFL and a TV (I got a
small Visio LCD TV that is not "power amnesiac" (comes on with power))

The Green Police are making those non-amnesiac devices harder to find. My
RCA TV is one, and when you turn it back on with the IR after shutting it
down via X-10 it covers the lower half of the screen with a whiny warning
about the clock losing its settings. Hey, you're a TV, not a clock!!!!
STFU. (-:

connected to a receptacle module (SR227) which does not have "local
control" and the TV provides enough load.

"Flashing" is also dependent on the type of lamp. I have some GE's that
don't flash but that are X-10 signal suckers and some N:Vision (HD brand)
bulbs that flash like demented fireflies. X-10 needs to make a CFL friendly
control module.

[snip[

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing
AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called
me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said it
was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I own
that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally
unhelpful in solving the flashing problem.

I seldom find "customer service" to be helpful, but at least you got
someone you could talk to. I just had a really bad experience with a
wireless (CDMA) broadband carrier, where the person ignored 90% of what I
said.

I've found if you're even moderately knowledgeable about a product it takes
two escalations to get someone who's not reading from an IF THEN ELSE chart
and who can actually troubleshoot. X-10's tech support came in as "Unknown
name/Unknown number" on caller ID, FWIW. Once I heard her speaking I knew I
was not going to get a good answer. I hope I don't regret giving them my
phone number.

--
Bobby G.

On Sep 9, 12:43*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message

...

[snip]

But not another CFL load!

Right. The setup in my bedroom is a lamp with 100W CFL and a TV (I got a
small Visio LCD TV that is not "power amnesiac" (comes on with power))

The Green Police are making those non-amnesiac devices harder to find. *My
RCA TV is one, and when you turn it back on with the IR after shutting it
down via X-10 it covers the lower half of the screen with a whiny warning
about the clock losing its settings. *Hey, you're a TV, not a clock!!!!
STFU. (-:

connected to a receptacle module (SR227) which does not have "local
control" and the TV provides enough load.

"Flashing" is also dependent on the type of lamp. *I have some GE's that
don't flash but that are X-10 signal suckers and some N:Vision (HD brand)
bulbs that flash like demented fireflies. *X-10 needs to make a CFL friendly
control module.

[snip[

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. *They are still pushing
AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! *The actually called
me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said it
was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I own
that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally
unhelpful in solving the flashing problem.

I seldom find "customer service" to be helpful, but at least you got
someone you could talk to. I just had a really bad experience with a
wireless (CDMA) broadband carrier, where the person ignored 90% of what I
said.

I've found if you're even moderately knowledgeable about a product it takes
two escalations to get someone who's not reading from an IF THEN ELSE chart
and who can actually troubleshoot. *X-10's tech support came in as "Unknown
name/Unknown number" on caller ID, FWIW. *Once I heard her speaking I knew I
was not going to get a good answer. *I hope I don't regret giving them my
phone number.

--
Bobby G.

And I have two settups using X10 with CFL and both work perfectly.
One uses the plug-in appliance module with a 100W CFL in a desktop
light. The other is the X10 wall switch that powers 4 small candle
type CFLs, maybe 25W each at the front door. Both go totally out when
off.

I guess it could depend on the design of the CFLs.

On 9/9/2010 12:43 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Mark wrote in message
...
[snip]

But not another CFL load!

Right. The setup in my bedroom is a lamp with 100W CFL and a TV (I got a
small Visio LCD TV that is not "power amnesiac" (comes on with power))

The Green Police are making those non-amnesiac devices harder to find. My
RCA TV is one, and when you turn it back on with the IR after shutting it
down via X-10 it covers the lower half of the screen with a whiny warning
about the clock losing its settings. Hey, you're a TV, not a clock!!!!
STFU. (-:

connected to a receptacle module (SR227) which does not have "local
control" and the TV provides enough load.

"Flashing" is also dependent on the type of lamp. I have some GE's that
don't flash but that are X-10 signal suckers and some N:Vision (HD brand)
bulbs that flash like demented fireflies. X-10 needs to make a CFL friendly
control module.

[snip[

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing
AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called
me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said it
was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I own
that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally
unhelpful in solving the flashing problem.

I seldom find "customer service" to be helpful, but at least you got
someone you could talk to. I just had a really bad experience with a
wireless (CDMA) broadband carrier, where the person ignored 90% of what I
said.

I've found if you're even moderately knowledgeable about a product it takes
two escalations to get someone who's not reading from an IF THEN ELSE chart
and who can actually troubleshoot. X-10's tech support came in as "Unknown
name/Unknown number" on caller ID, FWIW. Once I heard her speaking I knew I
was not going to get a good answer. I hope I don't regret giving them my
phone number.

--
Bobby G.

Two possibilities he
I have a whole load of the Universal
Modules, which I used in a previous
life, for Halloween animation. I
modified the UM to remove the screw
terminals and I then added a 1 foot
pigtail with a female receptacle.
Actually, it was cut off from an
extension cord, so there were 3 outlets.
The wire went into the place where the
screws were, formerly. I've read that
the contacts are rated for line voltage,
but because of the exposed screw
terminals, the unit was only rated for
low voltage. Anyway, as this is just a
plain make contact in series with the
load, it works good on the CFLs that
where blinking with the module off. I
am now presently using this on in my
living room. One sort-of problem, these
modules click REAL LOUD.

The 2nd possibility is regular
lamp/appliance module modification. I
have seen modifications that make a lamp
module into a click-free appliance
module. One uses a solid state relay.
The other uses some other parts. These
modification eliminate the sense current
completely. Google click free or quiet
module modifications.

Mark Lloyd wrote:
[snip]

I am sure the units he was talking about don't use a mechanical relay,
they use electronic switches that do have some leakage.

They DO use mechanical relays.

Here is a schematic of the appliance module: http://
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/cc/sta...uto/am486.html
Note that internal module ground is connected to the hot side of the
power, and the point marked "A" supplies power to the load regardless of
the relay.


Interesting to see circuits for devices. Thanks.

I have never played with X10. From the thread, local control is an
on/off push button on the unit. There is a jumper to disable it, but I
don't see the pushbutton contacts.

Any idea what "momentary operation" is or what "local current sense" is for?

And any idea what fused "TNR" in the upper left corner is?

--
bud--

On Sep 8, 11:10*am, wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:20*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Sep 7, 11:11 am, wrote:

On Sep 7, 10:50 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

One alternative is to use X10. These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks. I'll look into it.

The fixture dad bought has all of the dusk-to-dawn, timer, etc.
features that you mentioned, which is what he wanted, so that's good.

"The next part you need is an X10 wall switch...when someone walks
by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver.
The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it
and turns the light on."

I assume the switch fits in a standard box, right?

Yes, it is the same size as a regular single pole switch.

The current switch
setup is 2 switches in one box: A STSP switch for the outside light
and a 3-way switch for a switched outlet. Best case is both switches
fit in the existing box - and still match. Is that doable - barring
any "this is an old house" - issues?

Yes, but the switches won't match. *The X10 uses a push button switch
to turn the light on and off. * I don't find it to big a big deal
though. *You can find pics of them on Ebay or Smarthome, etc.



I think you're best served by not using X-10 - and this advice comes from
someone who owns every piece of X-10 gear ever made and uses it daily (along
with Jeff Volp's XTB booster - a must for any X-10 setup). *It's overkill
for this app and is likely to introduce more problems than it solves.

I don't see why it's overkill if it directly solves the problem by
securing one small motion detector to the side of the house, plugging
in a wireless receiver in any nearby outlet in the house, and
replacing one wall switch.

*One
thing you might find is that there's no neutral at the switch - although the
presence of a nearby switched outlet means there's probably one nearby.

The neutral is only necessary if you want to use CFL lights. *The
standard X10 wall switch doesn't require a neutral. *And since CFLs
are not that useful for motion activated lights, this is probably a
moot point. *If you want to use CFLs then you need the other X10
switch that does use a neutral and has a relay so it will work any
load.

It's also important if you're going to use CFL bulbs.

CFL's don't play nice with X-10 (as well as a lot of other devices that draw
power from 110VAC line). *If you intend on using them, beware that many take
a long time to warm up and are basically unsuitable for walkway lighting.

Which is why not having a neutral likely isn't an issue.

Some CFl's even relight themselves when you turn them off under X-10
control - very annoying!

I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the
one with no neutral. * Then the CFL will partially light all the time
because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit
to power the X10 switch electronics.

*By the time the bulb comes up to max illumination,
you're long past the sensor and the light.

Yep



I'd pigtail the unit you have with some lamp cord to see if it works with
CFLs before going through the hassle of mounting it. *If the lights are
going to be on for a few hours, it would pay to use CFLs. *If the lights
will be strictly motion sensor operated, then normal floods would be the
choice of bulb.

One more question: With most motion detector set-ups, you can override
the sensor by toggling the switch within 3 seconds to force the light
to be on all the time. Does it work the same way with the x10
switches? Can you turn the light on constantly with a toggle and then
reset it to motion-sense with another toggle?

Ha. *Not that I know of, but there's always something new under the sun.

Of course you can. *The X10 wall switch functions EXACTLY like the
existing switch for manual use. * Push the button, the light turns
on. * Push it again, the light turns off. * No need to do any special
sequencing. *You still have a manual switch there like before that
also responds to the X10 commands.

X-10 just requires too many pieces to do what a dedicated motion sensor
light does.

Yeah, it requires a whopping 3 items: wireless motion sensor that you
mount where you want it outside, wireless receiver that plugs in an
outlet, and a switch that replaces the existing light switch. * All
that probably cost $25 and can be installed in 30 mins. * *And it
gives him the freedom to mount the motion sensor exactly where he
wants it. *Compare that to replacing one or two outside fixtures and
it seems about the same to me in effort, but a lot less in cost. *Plus
you can use any style outside fixtures you want, the existing ones or
any new ones. *You're not limited to the models that come with motion
sensors built-in.

*I have a full set of X-10 motion detector floodlights sitting

in a box in the attic because they were not as easy to use as dedicated
motion detector floods. *I use dedicated, self-contained units for the
driveway fitted with tungsten floods, but I also have CFL fixtures that are
X-10 controlled that I had to run new wire to get them to function
correctly. *None of my circa 1940 house's built-in fixtures have neutral
wires and CFLs just flash away like strobe lights in such circuits with X-10
switches. *X-10 trickles a tiny bit of current through tungsten filament
bulbs to operate. *CFL don't pass that trickle current - they just absorb it
until enough builds up to flash the lamp. *Very annoying. *Sometimes, the
flashing is enough to activate the X-10 "current sense" switching and the
light comes back on several seconds after you turn it off.

That's because you used the WRONG X10 wall switch. *The one with a
neutral solves that problem. *As I described in my post, I have a very
...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

Thanks for the all the info on x10. It certainly seems like the way to
go.

"it requires a whopping 3 items: wireless motion sensor that you
mount where you want it outside, wireless receiver that plugs in an
outlet, and a switch that replaces the existing light switch"

That said, it must be me, but I can't find "the wireless receiver that
plugs into an outlet" on ebay. The other 2 items were easy to find.

I found all sorts of "appliance modules" that have a receptacle
included, but that's not what I'm looking for is it?

If I search ebay for "x10 wireless receiver" all the hits I get are
for audio and video stuff

Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

Thanks again!

On 9/9/2010 4:19 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 8, 11:10 am, wrote:
On Sep 7, 10:20 pm, "Robert wrote:





wrote in message

...
On Sep 7, 11:11 am, wrote:

On Sep 7, 10:50 am, wrote:

My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The instructions say that the sensor will work better if the "heat
source" moves across the coverage area as opposed to straight towards
it. They sure got that right!

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it?

BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

Thanks!

One alternative is to use X10. These are electrical products that
communicate via the existing house wiring. They have a motion sensor
that is wireless, operates on batteries, and can be mounted outdoors
anywhere. So, you could mount it so that people will walk across in
front of it as they come up the sidewalk.

The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any nearby AC outlet in the house. That
module puts the communication signal on the AC house wiring, where it
should be able to be picked up by any X10 device that is connected to
the AC wiring anywhere in the house.

So, the next part you need is an X10 wall switch. It replaces a
standard wall switch and can be turned on/off manually like a regular
switch, or via the X10 AC signals.

So, when someone walks by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to
the wireless receiver. The receiver puts the signal on the AC line
and the switch receives it and turns the light on.

The motion sensor also has a light sensor, so it can be programmed to
always turn the light on at dusk, or to only turn it on after dusk if
motion is detected, etc. You can also program how long it stays on
after motion is sensed.

The modules are cheap and can be found for under $10 on Ebay. I put
one in for a friend recently similar to what you want to do. The
motion sensor is located on the outside garage wall, so when you drive
up, it turns on the 3 lights outside the garage. The same sensor
also sends a dusk signal to a switch that works the front door lights
on the other side of the house. It turns those lightsm which are CFL
on at dusk and off at dawn.

Some caveats:

X10 is not always 100% reliable, but I've used it for this kind of
application and it works fine. Also the outdoor module probably has a
life of a couple years, but then they only cost $10 and you can even
use double sided velcro tape to attache them.

Any of the X10 modules will work with incandescent bulbs. If you
want to use CFL, you need to get a module that says it will work with
any loads. For example, they have modules that are specd for
appliances, so they have a relay inside, as opposed to electronic
switching and will work with CFL.

As with any motion sensor, you can get false turn-on from moving
shrubs, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks. I'll look into it.

The fixture dad bought has all of the dusk-to-dawn, timer, etc.
features that you mentioned, which is what he wanted, so that's good.

"The next part you need is an X10 wall switch...when someone walks
by, the wireless sends the turn-on signal to the wireless receiver.
The receiver puts the signal on the AC line and the switch receives it
and turns the light on."

I assume the switch fits in a standard box, right?

Yes, it is the same size as a regular single pole switch.

The current switch
setup is 2 switches in one box: A STSP switch for the outside light
and a 3-way switch for a switched outlet. Best case is both switches
fit in the existing box - and still match. Is that doable - barring
any "this is an old house" - issues?

Yes, but the switches won't match. The X10 uses a push button switch
to turn the light on and off. I don't find it to big a big deal
though. You can find pics of them on Ebay or Smarthome, etc.



I think you're best served by not using X-10 - and this advice comes from
someone who owns every piece of X-10 gear ever made and uses it daily (along
with Jeff Volp's XTB booster - a must for any X-10 setup). It's overkill
for this app and is likely to introduce more problems than it solves.

I don't see why it's overkill if it directly solves the problem by
securing one small motion detector to the side of the house, plugging
in a wireless receiver in any nearby outlet in the house, and
replacing one wall switch.

One
thing you might find is that there's no neutral at the switch - although the
presence of a nearby switched outlet means there's probably one nearby.

The neutral is only necessary if you want to use CFL lights. The
standard X10 wall switch doesn't require a neutral. And since CFLs
are not that useful for motion activated lights, this is probably a
moot point. If you want to use CFLs then you need the other X10
switch that does use a neutral and has a relay so it will work any
load.

It's also important if you're going to use CFL bulbs.

CFL's don't play nice with X-10 (as well as a lot of other devices that draw
power from 110VAC line). If you intend on using them, beware that many take
a long time to warm up and are basically unsuitable for walkway lighting.

Which is why not having a neutral likely isn't an issue.

Some CFl's even relight themselves when you turn them off under X-10
control - very annoying!

I've only seen this happen when you use the wrong X10 switch, ie the
one with no neutral. Then the CFL will partially light all the time
because that switch relies on a small current flowing in the circuit
to power the X10 switch electronics.

By the time the bulb comes up to max illumination,
you're long past the sensor and the light.

Yep



I'd pigtail the unit you have with some lamp cord to see if it works with
CFLs before going through the hassle of mounting it. If the lights are
going to be on for a few hours, it would pay to use CFLs. If the lights
will be strictly motion sensor operated, then normal floods would be the
choice of bulb.

One more question: With most motion detector set-ups, you can override
the sensor by toggling the switch within 3 seconds to force the light
to be on all the time. Does it work the same way with the x10
switches? Can you turn the light on constantly with a toggle and then
reset it to motion-sense with another toggle?

Ha. Not that I know of, but there's always something new under the sun.

Of course you can. The X10 wall switch functions EXACTLY like the
existing switch for manual use. Push the button, the light turns
on. Push it again, the light turns off. No need to do any special
sequencing. You still have a manual switch there like before that
also responds to the X10 commands.

X-10 just requires too many pieces to do what a dedicated motion sensor
light does.

Yeah, it requires a whopping 3 items: wireless motion sensor that you
mount where you want it outside, wireless receiver that plugs in an
outlet, and a switch that replaces the existing light switch. All
that probably cost $25 and can be installed in 30 mins. And it
gives him the freedom to mount the motion sensor exactly where he
wants it. Compare that to replacing one or two outside fixtures and
it seems about the same to me in effort, but a lot less in cost. Plus
you can use any style outside fixtures you want, the existing ones or
any new ones. You're not limited to the models that come with motion
sensors built-in.

I have a full set of X-10 motion detector floodlights sitting

in a box in the attic because they were not as easy to use as dedicated
motion detector floods. I use dedicated, self-contained units for the
driveway fitted with tungsten floods, but I also have CFL fixtures that are
X-10 controlled that I had to run new wire to get them to function
correctly. None of my circa 1940 house's built-in fixtures have neutral
wires and CFLs just flash away like strobe lights in such circuits with X-10
switches. X-10 trickles a tiny bit of current through tungsten filament
bulbs to operate. CFL don't pass that trickle current - they just absorb it
until enough builds up to flash the lamp. Very annoying. Sometimes, the
flashing is enough to activate the X-10 "current sense" switching and the
light comes back on several seconds after you turn it off.

That's because you used the WRONG X10 wall switch. The one with a
neutral solves that problem. As I described in my post, I have a very
...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

trader4,

Thanks for the all the info on x10. It certainly seems like the way to
go.

"it requires a whopping 3 items: wireless motion sensor that you
mount where you want it outside, wireless receiver that plugs in an
outlet, and a switch that replaces the existing light switch"

That said, it must be me, but I can't find "the wireless receiver that
plugs into an outlet" on ebay. The other 2 items were easy to find.


There only seems to be one manufacturer (different names on them but
they all look identical) and I tried them in the past and they were
useless because the receivers had extremely poor performance.

http://www.safemart.com/Controller-A...m_source=gbase


I gave up on them and bought a high gain unit that has much better
performance. I think it was ~ $120. Not home at the moment to check for
a part number but I think one of the reasons it works a lot better is
that it comes with ~ 10 feet of coax to be able to locate the antenna
away from the module.


I found all sorts of "appliance modules" that have a receptacle
included, but that's not what I'm looking for is it?

If I search ebay for "x10 wireless receiver" all the hits I get are
for audio and video stuff

Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

Thanks again!

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
On 9/9/2010 12:43 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Mark wrote in message
...
[snip]

But not another CFL load!

Right. The setup in my bedroom is a lamp with 100W CFL and a TV (I got
a
small Visio LCD TV that is not "power amnesiac" (comes on with power))

The Green Police are making those non-amnesiac devices harder to find.
My
RCA TV is one, and when you turn it back on with the IR after shutting
it
down via X-10 it covers the lower half of the screen with a whiny
warning
about the clock losing its settings. Hey, you're a TV, not a clock!!!!
STFU. (-:

connected to a receptacle module (SR227) which does not have "local
control" and the TV provides enough load.

"Flashing" is also dependent on the type of lamp. I have some GE's that
don't flash but that are X-10 signal suckers and some N:Vision (HD
brand)
bulbs that flash like demented fireflies. X-10 needs to make a CFL
friendly
control module.

[snip[

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing
AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called
me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said
it
was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I
own
that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally
unhelpful in solving the flashing problem.

I seldom find "customer service" to be helpful, but at least you got
someone you could talk to. I just had a really bad experience with a
wireless (CDMA) broadband carrier, where the person ignored 90% of what
I
said.

I've found if you're even moderately knowledgeable about a product it
takes
two escalations to get someone who's not reading from an IF THEN ELSE
chart
and who can actually troubleshoot. X-10's tech support came in as
"Unknown
name/Unknown number" on caller ID, FWIW. Once I heard her speaking I
knew I
was not going to get a good answer. I hope I don't regret giving them
my
phone number.

--
Bobby G.

Two possibilities he
I have a whole load of the Universal
Modules, which I used in a previous
life, for Halloween animation. I
modified the UM to remove the screw
terminals and I then added a 1 foot
pigtail with a female receptacle.
Actually, it was cut off from an
extension cord, so there were 3 outlets.
The wire went into the place where the
screws were, formerly. I've read that
the contacts are rated for line voltage,
but because of the exposed screw
terminals, the unit was only rated for
low voltage. Anyway, as this is just a
plain make contact in series with the
load, it works good on the CFLs that
where blinking with the module off. I
am now presently using this on in my
living room. One sort-of problem, these
modules click REAL LOUD.

I have a bunch of UM's, and they do indeed clack, but I am too much of a
pussy to pass 110VAC through a contact spec'ed for 33VAC. You're proving
that it can be done. I'm saying "Hey, X-10, why are you forcing people like
Art to do your design engineering for you?"

The 2nd possibility is regular
lamp/appliance module modification. I
have seen modifications that make a lamp
module into a click-free appliance
module. One uses a solid state relay.
The other uses some other parts. These
modification eliminate the sense current
completely. Google click free or quiet
module modifications.

The SSR mode looked interesting, but I am reluctant to do much more than
snip a wire or cut a surface trace. X-10's final solution was to use a 7W
nightlight to counteract the flashback of a bulb I am using to saving
electricity. Add in the 4 watts for the X-10 module and another 4 watts for
the controller and the economics start to sour. A fully equipped X-10 house
draws considerable standby current. I remember measuring mine at close to
400 watts. In a lot of places, the flashing hardly matters and it's
actually the most efficient low leveling night lighting you can get (if
you're not epileptic). I''ve tried a lot of the mods, and while they do
eliminate the local control, they don't stop the current trickle!!!!!

The twin bulb 40W fixture in the workshop finally failed so I replaced it
with a new, high eff. unit. Now it flashes with the same intensity as
nearby lightning does. Surprisingly, you can navigate quite easily if you
move slowly. More than enough light to see a black cat sleeping on a dark
rug. Seeing a white dog is no problem. Low SAF and neighbor approval
factor, though. Went back to a manual switch (shudder) for the time being.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:19:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

They call that module a "transceiver" . The models I have are RR501 and
TM751.Both have built-in appliance modules.

--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 10:20:16 -0500, bud-- wrote:

[snip]


Any idea what "momentary operation" is or what "local current sense" is
for?

I haven't used "momentary operation" but would expect its what it says.
When turned on, the device is turned off immediately afterward.

"local current sense" is how "local control" works. It senses the
operation of the controlled device's own switch. Turn if off and then on
and the module turns on.

And any idea what fused "TNR" in the upper left corner is?



--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins

On Sep 9, 11:06*pm, Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:19:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

They call that module a "transceiver" . The models I have are RR501 and
TM751.Both have built-in appliance modules.


Yes. Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver.
It's been a while since I bought one. The one I used is the TM751.
And as Mark points out, it has a receptacle at the bottom that you can
plug something into that you want to control as well. When it
receives the signal from the wireless motion sensor, it turns on or
off the outlet and sends the X10 signal down the AC line.






--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins

On Sep 10, 8:42*am, wrote:
On Sep 9, 11:06*pm, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:19:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

They call that module a "transceiver" . The models I have are RR501 and
TM751.Both have built-in appliance modules.

Yes. * Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver.
It's been a while since I bought one. * The one I used is the TM751.
And as Mark points out, it has a receptacle at the bottom that you can
plug something into that you want to control as well. * When it
receives the signal from the wireless motion sensor, it turns on or
off the outlet and sends the X10 signal down the AC line.





--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver"

No problem, but I'm still just a tad confused by the different terms
used.

I was looking at the manual for a 3 way-switch WS4777 found at:

ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ws4777-is.pdf

They use the following lines:

• Set the House Code dial to the same letter (A thru P) that you set
on your X10 controller(s).
• Set the Unit Code dial to an unused code (1 - 16) which can be
controlled from any X10 controller.

Are the RR501 and TM751 "Transceivers" also known as "Controllers"?

One last question (I doubt it!)

I plan to play with X10 at my house before buying anything for my Dad
who lives 300 miles away.

I currently have a spot light with a motion sensor on a 3 way switch.
The motion sensor works fine for the driveway as you approach from the
front, but I've always wanted to be able to turn it on as I walk up
the dark side of the house from behind it. The side path is not within
the coverage area of the current sensor, but the light would
illuminate the steps up to the driveway at the end of the path.

So it sounds like a X10 remote sensor on the side of the house could
be used to control that light. So here's the question:

Can I retain the current motion sensor that is wired into the fixture
for the driveway approach or do I need to disable that one and install
a X10 sensor for the front of the house also?

On Sep 10, 11:09*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 10, 8:42*am, wrote:





On Sep 9, 11:06*pm, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:19:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

They call that module a "transceiver" . The models I have are RR501 and
TM751.Both have built-in appliance modules.

Yes. * Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver.
It's been a while since I bought one. * The one I used is the TM751.
And as Mark points out, it has a receptacle at the bottom that you can
plug something into that you want to control as well. * When it
receives the signal from the wireless motion sensor, it turns on or
off the outlet and sends the X10 signal down the AC line.

--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver"

No problem, but I'm still just a tad confused by the different terms
used.

I was looking at the manual for a 3 way-switch WS4777 found at:

ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ws4777-is.pdf

They use the following lines:

• Set the House Code dial to the same letter (A thru P) that you set
on your X10 controller(s).
• Set the Unit Code dial to an unused code (1 - 16) which can be
controlled from any X10 controller.

Are the RR501 and TM751 "Transceivers" also known as "Controllers"?


The use of the term "controller" above means the the switch will
respond to commands on the AC line from any "controller" that issues a
command. In your case that command comes from the wireless motion
sensor you will be using. The transceiver receives the command
wirelessly and puts it onto the AC line. So, it's passing it along
and I guess you could consider the transceiver as a type of
controller.

Basicly, the transceiver unit just passes along what it receives.
But it also has an X10 outlet that responds to commands as any other
one would. The only difference is that it is hard-wired as Unit #1.
In your application you don't need the outlet so you could ignore it.

So, you just set the motion sensor, transceiver and wall switch to the
same house code. Then you set the motion sensor to any unit # and
the wall switch to the same unit #. If you select unit #1, the
outlet on the transceiver will go on and off at the same time as the
wall switch. If you select any other unit #, only the wall switch
will be activated.

You can also set the light on time, dusk to dawn, etc on the motion
sensor as well.




One last question (I doubt it!)

I plan to play with X10 at my house before buying anything for my Dad
who lives 300 miles away.

I currently have a spot light with a motion sensor on a 3 way switch.
The motion sensor works fine for the driveway as you approach from the
front, but I've always wanted to be able to turn it on as I walk up
the dark side of the house from behind it. The side path is not within
the coverage area of the current sensor, but the light would
illuminate the steps up to the driveway at the end of the path.

So it sounds like a X10 remote sensor on the side of the house could
be used to control that light. So here's the question:

Can I retain the current motion sensor that is wired into the fixture
for the driveway approach or do I need to disable that one and install
a X10 sensor for the front of the house also?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don;t know of any way to make it work as a parallel type
arrangement. The only way I can see it working would be to convert it
to 2 of the X10 motion sensors, make the light so it's always on ie
disable the motion sensor on it, replace the switch with an X10 switch
and use the transceiver.

On Sep 10, 12:52*pm, wrote:
On Sep 10, 11:09*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Sep 10, 8:42*am, wrote:

On Sep 9, 11:06*pm, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:19:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

They call that module a "transceiver" . The models I have are RR501 and
TM751.Both have built-in appliance modules.

Yes. * Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver..
It's been a while since I bought one. * The one I used is the TM751..
And as Mark points out, it has a receptacle at the bottom that you can
plug something into that you want to control as well. * When it
receives the signal from the wireless motion sensor, it turns on or
off the outlet and sends the X10 signal down the AC line.

--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver"

No problem, but I'm still just a tad confused by the different terms
used.

I was looking at the manual for a 3 way-switch WS4777 found at:

ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ws4777-is.pdf

They use the following lines:

• Set the House Code dial to the same letter (A thru P) that you set
on your X10 controller(s).
• Set the Unit Code dial to an unused code (1 - 16) which can be
controlled from any X10 controller.

Are the RR501 and TM751 "Transceivers" also known as "Controllers"?

The use of the term "controller" above means the the switch will
respond to commands on the AC line from any "controller" that issues a
command. * In your case that command comes from the wireless motion
sensor you will be using. *The transceiver receives the command
wirelessly and puts it onto the AC line. * So, it's passing it along
and I guess you could consider the transceiver as a type of
controller.

Basicly, the transceiver unit just passes along what it receives.
But it also has an X10 outlet that responds to commands as any other
one would. * The only difference is that it is hard-wired as Unit #1.
In your application you don't need the outlet so you could ignore it.

So, you just set the motion sensor, transceiver and wall switch to the
same house code. * *Then you set the motion sensor to any unit # and
the wall switch to the same unit #. * If you select unit #1, the
outlet on the transceiver will go on and off at the same time as the
wall switch. *If you select any other unit #, only the wall switch
will be activated.

You can also set the light on time, dusk to dawn, etc on the motion
sensor as well.







One last question (I doubt it!)

I plan to play with X10 at my house before buying anything for my Dad
who lives 300 miles away.

I currently have a spot light with a motion sensor on a 3 way switch.
The motion sensor works fine for the driveway as you approach from the
front, but I've always wanted to be able to turn it on as I walk up
the dark side of the house from behind it. The side path is not within
the coverage area of the current sensor, but the light would
illuminate the steps up to the driveway at the end of the path.

So it sounds like a X10 remote sensor on the side of the house could
be used to control that light. So here's the question:

Can I retain the current motion sensor that is wired into the fixture
for the driveway approach or do I need to disable that one and install
a X10 sensor for the front of the house also?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don;t know of any way to make it work as a parallel type
arrangement. *The only way I can see it working would be to convert it
to 2 of the X10 motion sensors, make the light so it's always on ie
disable the motion sensor on it, replace the switch with an X10 switch
and use the transceiver.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks!

I must be learning something becasue that's exactly what I thought
your answers would be.

I'll put my order together and get busy.

On 9/9/2010 7:30 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Art wrote in message
...
On 9/9/2010 12:43 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Mark wrote in message
...
[snip]

But not another CFL load!

Right. The setup in my bedroom is a lamp with 100W CFL and a TV (I got
a
small Visio LCD TV that is not "power amnesiac" (comes on with power))

The Green Police are making those non-amnesiac devices harder to find.
My
RCA TV is one, and when you turn it back on with the IR after shutting
it
down via X-10 it covers the lower half of the screen with a whiny
warning
about the clock losing its settings. Hey, you're a TV, not a clock!!!!
STFU. (-:

connected to a receptacle module (SR227) which does not have "local
control" and the TV provides enough load.

"Flashing" is also dependent on the type of lamp. I have some GE's that
don't flash but that are X-10 signal suckers and some N:Vision (HD
brand)
bulbs that flash like demented fireflies. X-10 needs to make a CFL
friendly
control module.

[snip[

OK - just checked with X-10's live support. They are still pushing
AM466 modules which flash and relight like crazy! The actually called
me on the phone (sales, not techie) sent me three useless links, said
it
was "noise on the line" (tell that to three different X-10 meters I
own
that say "no noise") and were pleasant, friendly and yet totally
unhelpful in solving the flashing problem.

I seldom find "customer service" to be helpful, but at least you got
someone you could talk to. I just had a really bad experience with a
wireless (CDMA) broadband carrier, where the person ignored 90% of what
I
said.

I've found if you're even moderately knowledgeable about a product it
takes
two escalations to get someone who's not reading from an IF THEN ELSE
chart
and who can actually troubleshoot. X-10's tech support came in as
"Unknown
name/Unknown number" on caller ID, FWIW. Once I heard her speaking I
knew I
was not going to get a good answer. I hope I don't regret giving them
my
phone number.

--
Bobby G.

Two possibilities he
I have a whole load of the Universal
Modules, which I used in a previous
life, for Halloween animation. I
modified the UM to remove the screw
terminals and I then added a 1 foot
pigtail with a female receptacle.
Actually, it was cut off from an
extension cord, so there were 3 outlets.
The wire went into the place where the
screws were, formerly. I've read that
the contacts are rated for line voltage,
but because of the exposed screw
terminals, the unit was only rated for
low voltage. Anyway, as this is just a
plain make contact in series with the
load, it works good on the CFLs that
where blinking with the module off. I
am now presently using this on in my
living room. One sort-of problem, these
modules click REAL LOUD.

I have a bunch of UM's, and they do indeed clack, but I am too much of a
pussy to pass 110VAC through a contact spec'ed for 33VAC. You're proving
that it can be done. I'm saying "Hey, X-10, why are you forcing people like
Art to do your design engineering for you?"

The 2nd possibility is regular
lamp/appliance module modification. I
have seen modifications that make a lamp
module into a click-free appliance
module. One uses a solid state relay.
The other uses some other parts. These
modification eliminate the sense current
completely. Google click free or quiet
module modifications.

The SSR mode looked interesting, but I am reluctant to do much more than
snip a wire or cut a surface trace. X-10's final solution was to use a 7W
nightlight to counteract the flashback of a bulb I am using to saving
electricity. Add in the 4 watts for the X-10 module and another 4 watts for
the controller and the economics start to sour. A fully equipped X-10 house
draws considerable standby current. I remember measuring mine at close to
400 watts. In a lot of places, the flashing hardly matters and it's
actually the most efficient low leveling night lighting you can get (if
you're not epileptic). I''ve tried a lot of the mods, and while they do
eliminate the local control, they don't stop the current trickle!!!!!

The twin bulb 40W fixture in the workshop finally failed so I replaced it
with a new, high eff. unit. Now it flashes with the same intensity as
nearby lightning does. Surprisingly, you can navigate quite easily if you
move slowly. More than enough light to see a black cat sleeping on a dark
rug. Seeing a white dog is no problem. Low SAF and neighbor approval
factor, though. Went back to a manual switch (shudder) for the time being.

--
Bobby G.

As for the UM, yes the click is horrible
.... worse than the generic appliance
module. I'm not sure where I found it,
but, someone reported that the relay
contacts were actually rated at line
voltage. The exposed screw terminal are
what actually made them put a spec of
33VAC on the module. As you said, I'm
proof that it works but I don't have any
hard documentation showing the contact
rating.

Also, when you said your house had an
X10 standby load of 400 watts, I can't
see how. I am assuming you mean from
modules and such. Today I connected 8
generic lamp modules to a Kill-A-Watt
unit. The 8th module made the display
go from 1 watt to 2 watts.

On Sep 10, 1:13*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 10, 12:52*pm, wrote:





On Sep 10, 11:09*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Sep 10, 8:42*am, wrote:

On Sep 9, 11:06*pm, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Sep 2010 13:19:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Where do I find the "x10 wireless receiver" that talks to the x10
switch?

They call that module a "transceiver" . The models I have are RR501 and
TM751.Both have built-in appliance modules.

Yes. * Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver.
It's been a while since I bought one. * The one I used is the TM751.
And as Mark points out, it has a receptacle at the bottom that you can
plug something into that you want to control as well. * When it
receives the signal from the wirelessmotionsensor, it turns on or
off the outlet and sends the X10 signal down the AC line.

--
107 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloydhttp://notstupid.us

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not
understanding the world." -- Richard Dawkins- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Sorry for the confusion when I called it a wireless receiver"

No problem, but I'm still just a tad confused by the different terms
used.

I was looking at the manual for a 3 way-switch WS4777 found at:

ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/ws4777-is.pdf

They use the following lines:

• Set the House Code dial to the same letter (A thru P) that you set
on your X10 controller(s).
• Set the Unit Code dial to an unused code (1 - 16) which can be
controlled from any X10 controller.

Are the RR501 and TM751 "Transceivers" also known as "Controllers"?

The use of the term "controller" above means the the switch will
respond to commands on the AC line from any "controller" that issues a
command. * In your case that command comes from the wirelessmotion
sensor you will be using. *The transceiver receives the command
wirelessly and puts it onto the AC line. * So, it's passing it along
and I guess you could consider the transceiver as a type of
controller.

Basicly, the transceiver unit just passes along what it receives.
But it also has an X10 outlet that responds to commands as any other
one would. * The only difference is that it is hard-wired as Unit #1.
In your application you don't need the outlet so you could ignore it.

So, you just set themotionsensor, transceiver and wall switch to the
same house code. * *Then you set themotionsensor to any unit # and
the wall switch to the same unit #. * If you select unit #1, the
outlet on the transceiver will go on and off at the same time as the
wall switch. *If you select any other unit #, only the wall switch
will be activated.

You can also set the light on time, dusk to dawn, etc on themotion
sensor as well.

One last question (I doubt it!)

I plan to play with X10 at my house before buying anything for my Dad
who lives 300 miles away.

I currently have a spot light with amotionsensor on a 3 way switch.
Themotionsensor works fine for the driveway as you approach from the
front, but I've always wanted to be able to turn it on as I walk up
the dark side of the house from behind it. The side path is not within
the coverage area of the current sensor, but the light would
illuminate the steps up to the driveway at the end of the path.

So it sounds like a X10 remote sensor on the side of the house could
be used to control that light. So here's the question:

Can I retain the currentmotionsensor that is wired into the fixture
for the driveway approach or do I need to disable that one and install
a X10 sensor for the front of the house also?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don;t know of any way to make it work as a parallel type
arrangement. *The only way I can see it working would be to convert it
to 2 of the X10motionsensors, make the light so it's always on ie
disable themotionsensor on it, replace the switch with an X10 switch
and use the transceiver.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks!

I must be learning something becasue that's exactly what I thought
your answers would be.

I'll put my order together and get busy.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I received my X10 order yesterday and started playing around with the
devices. Pretty cool!

In a matter of minutes I was turning on lights in my living room by
walking across the back yard. Drove SWMBO nuts!

I'll be installing the switches and other items for my entry and
driveway lights this weekend.

I love new toys!

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

As for the UM, yes the click is horrible
... worse than the generic appliance
module. I'm not sure where I found it,
but, someone reported that the relay
contacts were actually rated at line
voltage. The exposed screw terminal are
what actually made them put a spec of
33VAC on the module. As you said, I'm
proof that it works but I don't have any
hard documentation showing the contact
rating.

Also, when you said your house had an
X10 standby load of 400 watts, I can't
see how. I am assuming you mean from
modules and such. Today I connected 8
generic lamp modules to a Kill-A-Watt
unit. The 8th module made the display
go from 1 watt to 2 watts.

The Kill-A-Watt is notorious for not measuring very low wattage devices
accurately. My electronic wizard friend theorized that it's because they've
optimized their reading range for items people would most likely measure.

I've been fooled by it on a number of occasions. An in-line amperage
measurement is likely to show you something different. Also, the X-10 power
supplies have a rather unusual design which contributes, I think, to the
Kill-A-Watt's erroneous readings.

IIRC, a while back Dave Houston (has anyone heard from him?) did some
measurements that more accurately pegged them at five watts. At the same
time I put a 7W nightlight and an appliance module connected to a load, one
after the other, in a small Styrofoam box and measured the heat rise. The
X-10 module warmed the box a slight bit less than the 7w nightlight, but not
by half. There are a couple of threads related to this in Google.

It was a while back and one of the issues was how much heat is generated in
the lamp module when it's dimming a very large load. I know now that a
1000W resistive load makes it hot enough to melt into a big blob and lets
all the magic smoke out. Experience is gained proportional to the amount of
equipment ruined. (-:

If you were running them "no load" then you also weren't measuring the
trickle current a plugged in device draws. I have over 100 modules,
controllers, AV-switches, telephone responders (one on each light to reset
the other when either locks up!), meters, loggers, repeaters, transceivers
and more so I just multiplied 100 by 4 as an average figure. The rate the
power meter outside spins when I've shut off all the major loads tends to
confirm that all my X-10 gear draws more standby current than I wish they
did. But even in biology, command and control requires a portion of overall
resources and your neurons are consuming tiny bits of energy just waiting
for a command from the brain. (-:

If you have an in-line ammeter (the tong meters aren't really suitable,
either, you might want to revisit the study with loads plugged into a batch
of modules. I'm tempted but my days of doing experiments in the name of
Usenet are fading. I've learned that what my wife calls my "science
experiments"(especially those involving octupussed 110VAC electrical wiring)
have VERY low SAF. The general SAF level seems pegged to the Dow Jones
average these days.

--
Bobby G.