My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet, or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green), but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

In article , Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall.

That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire, and
replace it with black or red. If removing it is not feasible, permanently mark
it at both ends either black or red.

I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet,

NO!!!

Green insulation is permitted for one thing, and one thing only, under the
National Electrical Code: the equipment grounding conductor. Using green wires
for hot conductors is potentially lethal: someone else, later, may assume
that's a ground wire and therefore not live.

or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

Yes.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green),

There are *no* advantages to having the circuit incorrectly color-coded.

but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

So mark the green hot wire either black or red -- or replace it.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

Then do it right: use the proper color-coding.

Ground: green, green with a yellow stripe, or bare
Neutral: white or gray
Hot: any other color, usually black, sometimes red, occasionally blue, yellow,
or orange.

"Josh" wrote in message
...
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet, or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green), but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

I'm assuming that this is rubber covered cloth wire, and not plastic, and
this is flexible steel conduit, and not BX cable. There should never be a
green conductor carrying current, other than fault current of an equipment
ground. There really isn't a legal way to correct it other than pulling it
out and replacing it with any color but white, grey, or green. If it is in
fact, flexible conduit, you should be able to tie a new conductor onto the
green one and pull it through the conduit.

Josh wrote:
...

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on
existing work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends
and go on w/ correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...

--

To head off potential danger in the future you might want to put a
sticker on the breaker box that says something like "Caution-- there
are green wires in the walls that are NOT ground but the HOT wire."
You probably don't want to come home one day to find a dead
electrician in the house.

copyright 2010 Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com

That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire, and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire, and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to
any electrician long before there's an issue. It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another
black conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire,
and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to any
electrician long before there's an issue. It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another black
conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define that
it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking it, as
electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they are
connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a ground, and
in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt. This is
probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

What do you expect that to accomplish? The OP never said he's missing a
neutral wire -- he said some previous person used a green wire as a hot
conductor. How will running a white neutral wire change that?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "John
Gilmer" wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on
existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on
w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

What do you expect that to accomplish? The OP never said he's missing a
neutral wire -- he said some previous person used a green wire as a hot
conductor. How will running a white neutral wire change that?

Whatever.

My point is that he can put the right colors into the conduit. The green
can be used as a ground, etc.

One of the justifications for conduit is that you can install what you need
and pull out what you don't need.

Since there is wire installed, all he has to do is pull one wire and measure
it and pick up the lengths and colors (& sizes) he wants at the home depost
or whatever.

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "John
Gilmer" wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on
existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on
w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

What do you expect that to accomplish? The OP never said he's missing a
neutral wire -- he said some previous person used a green wire as a hot
conductor. How will running a white neutral wire change that?

Whatever.

My point is that he can put the right colors into the conduit. The green
can be used as a ground, etc.

If that's what you meant, then that's what you should have said. :-)

On Jul 4, 6:19*pm, Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. *Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. *For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. *I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. *That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. *Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! *Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet, or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? *The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. *The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green), but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

NO one seems to have mentioned GFCIs for the garage outlets.

On 7/4/2010 16:19, Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall...

I've seen similar wiring schemes in 50's wiring in Los Angeles, which
required conduit wiring at the time. Evidently at one time green was
not reserved for use as a grounding conductor. You may be able go
grandfather in what is in place now, but if you're extending the circuit
use another color.

Also keep in mind that flexible conduit is not suitable as a grounding
conductor, although it may have served such a purpose at one time. If
feasible you may want to consider running a new hot wire from the
breaker to the first outlet, leaving the green wire available for grounding.

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2010 16:19, Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall...

I've seen similar wiring schemes in 50's wiring in Los Angeles, which
required conduit wiring at the time. Evidently at one time green was not
reserved for use as a grounding conductor.

You may be able go
grandfather in what is in place now, but if you're extending the circuit
use another color.

I believe that existing , previously approved wiring is inherently
grandfathered provided it hasn't been altered . If his entire house was
wired using green conductors for the hot legs, it might give credence to
your theory, but as it was just this one circuit,it's more likely that it
was just sloppy work. The original wiring didn't use an equipment ground and
didn't have grounded outlets. To be Nec compliant, the Op should not have
replaced the non grounding outlets with grounding outlets, unless he pulled
an equipment grounding conductor through the greenfield.


Also keep in mind that flexible conduit is not suitable as a grounding
conductor, although it may have served such a purpose at one time. If
feasible you may want to consider running a new hot wire from the breaker
to the first outlet, leaving the green wire available for grounding.