My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet, or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green), but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

In article , Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall.

That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire, and
replace it with black or red. If removing it is not feasible, permanently mark
it at both ends either black or red.

I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet,

NO!!!

Green insulation is permitted for one thing, and one thing only, under the
National Electrical Code: the equipment grounding conductor. Using green wires
for hot conductors is potentially lethal: someone else, later, may assume
that's a ground wire and therefore not live.

or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

Yes.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green),

There are *no* advantages to having the circuit incorrectly color-coded.

but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

So mark the green hot wire either black or red -- or replace it.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

Then do it right: use the proper color-coding.

Ground: green, green with a yellow stripe, or bare
Neutral: white or gray
Hot: any other color, usually black, sometimes red, occasionally blue, yellow,
or orange.

"Josh" wrote in message
...
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet, or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green), but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

I'm assuming that this is rubber covered cloth wire, and not plastic, and
this is flexible steel conduit, and not BX cable. There should never be a
green conductor carrying current, other than fault current of an equipment
ground. There really isn't a legal way to correct it other than pulling it
out and replacing it with any color but white, grey, or green. If it is in
fact, flexible conduit, you should be able to tie a new conductor onto the
green one and pull it through the conduit.

Josh wrote:
...

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on
existing work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends
and go on w/ correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...

--

To head off potential danger in the future you might want to put a
sticker on the breaker box that says something like "Caution-- there
are green wires in the walls that are NOT ground but the HOT wire."
You probably don't want to come home one day to find a dead
electrician in the house.

copyright 2010 Shaun Eli
www.BrainChampagne.com

That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire, and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire, and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to
any electrician long before there's an issue. It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another
black conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire,
and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to any
electrician long before there's an issue. It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another black
conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define that
it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking it, as
electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they are
connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a ground, and
in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt. This is
probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor

On Jul 5, 11:22*am, "RBM" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message

...



Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green wire,
and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. *The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. *But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. *It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. *But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. *It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to any
electrician long before there's an issue. *It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another black
conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define that
it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking it, as
electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they are
connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a ground, and
in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt. This is
probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Anyone else can take me apart for this ............... but if it was
in my house and in good condition and the breaker is the appropriate
size for the gauge of 'smallest' wire on that whole circuit (see
below) then I'd generously mark both ends of that green hot wire
either with red nail polish or black paint or sleeve it with some
black tubing (also mark 'green wire' on the circuit breaker record)
and carry on from there.
But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????
BTW recently a neighbour working on his basement asked me me to hook
up two outlets from an existing circuit. He had used 14AWG for the
extension which he had bought because it was cheaper than 12AWG!
So I warned him before we started that THAT circuit MUST be breaker-ed
back at the panel at 15 amps. A short while ago he had an electrician
replace his old fuse panel with a breaker-ed panel. Fuse were an odd
choice, because our house built about same time has a generous supply
of breakers and two pony panels! Fortunately it was a 15 amp breaker-
ed circuit and with very little, if anything else, on it! So his
outlets will be OK.

On Jul 4, 6:19*pm, Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. *Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. *For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. *I plan on changing that outlet to a double outlet to
eliminate the need for extention cords and/or adapters, and also add
another single outlet 10 feet away. *That same circuit feeds some
outlets in my living room, I assume via a junction box somewhere in
the attic. *Thankfully, they did use white for the neutral! *Here's
what I'm wondering:

Should I continue with the green/hot color scheme for that circuit by
putting a wire nut and green pigtails on the green wire inside the new
double outlet box, and run a longer green wire from the wire nut to
the new single outlet, or simply change to the standard black/hot
wiring exiting the wire nut? *The latter option would have the green/
hot wire coming into the wire nut in the new double outlet box, two
black pigtails feeding the hot sides of the two new outlets, and a
longer black wire coming out of the wire nut to feed the new single
outlet further along the wall. *The neutral, in either case, would be
the standard white.

I can see the advantage of having the entire circuit the same color
(green), but it looks a little odd to have a green wire feeding the
hot side of the outlet(s) AND another short green wire grounding the
outlet to the sheet metal screw in the back of the outlet box.

No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right.

NO one seems to have mentioned GFCIs for the garage outlets.

"terry" wrote in message
...
On Jul 5, 11:22 am, "RBM" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message

...



Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green
wire,
and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to
any
electrician long before there's an issue. It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another
black
conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define
that
it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking it,
as
electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they are
connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a ground,
and
in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt. This is
probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Anyone else can take me apart for this ............... but if it was
in my house and in good condition and the breaker is the appropriate
size for the gauge of 'smallest' wire on that whole circuit (see
below) then I'd generously mark both ends of that green hot wire
either with red nail polish or black paint or sleeve it with some
black tubing (also mark 'green wire' on the circuit breaker record)
and carry on from there.
But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????
BTW recently a neighbour working on his basement asked me me to hook
up two outlets from an existing circuit. He had used 14AWG for the
extension which he had bought because it was cheaper than 12AWG!
So I warned him before we started that THAT circuit MUST be breaker-ed
back at the panel at 15 amps. A short while ago he had an electrician
replace his old fuse panel with a breaker-ed panel. Fuse were an odd
choice, because our house built about same time has a generous supply
of breakers and two pony panels! Fortunately it was a 15 amp breaker-
ed circuit and with very little, if anything else, on it! So his
outlets will be OK.

Good point about the grounding. The OP hasn't clearly specified what the
conductors are in, but it does sound like some form of Greenfield, which is
only acceptable as an EGC for circuits 20 amps or less, and lengths not
exceeding 6 feet.

But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????

When I bought the 50s vintage house in 1971, all the outlets were the
old 2-prong type. The only ground was outlet ears and/or outlet
mounting screws into the metal outlet boxes and back to the breaker
box via the flexible armored steel conduit. Over the years I've
replaced all the outlets with 3-prong type, drilled a hole in the back
of the outlet box for a sheet metal screw, and connected a 6 inch
green 12 gauge wire from the screw to the outlet ground connector.
That's the case with the garage outlet I'm modifying from single to
double.

If I use an AC voltmeter or a small neon circuit tester to measure
from outlet hot to neutral, it naturally reads approximately 117 v.
If I measure between the outlet hot to the metal outlet box, or the
ground connector on the outlet, it reads the same 117v so I know the
ground path is in tact all the way back to the breaker box.
Fortunately, none of the previous owners replaced any of the metal
outlet boxes with the blue plastic ones! I've never figured out why
anyone would want the plastic boxes but I guess that would be a
completely new topic/thread.

"Josh" wrote in message
...
But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????

When I bought the 50s vintage house in 1971, all the outlets were the
old 2-prong type. The only ground was outlet ears and/or outlet
mounting screws into the metal outlet boxes and back to the breaker
box via the flexible armored steel conduit. Over the years I've
replaced all the outlets with 3-prong type, drilled a hole in the back
of the outlet box for a sheet metal screw, and connected a 6 inch
green 12 gauge wire from the screw to the outlet ground connector.
That's the case with the garage outlet I'm modifying from single to
double.

If I use an AC voltmeter or a small neon circuit tester to measure
from outlet hot to neutral, it naturally reads approximately 117 v.
If I measure between the outlet hot to the metal outlet box, or the
ground connector on the outlet, it reads the same 117v so I know the
ground path is in tact all the way back to the breaker box.
Fortunately, none of the previous owners replaced any of the metal
outlet boxes with the blue plastic ones! I've never figured out why
anyone would want the plastic boxes but I guess that would be a
completely new topic/thread.

Plastic boxes can be bought in large 22 cu. inch size for about 1/4 of the
price of a standard 2x3 steel box. More room, for the buck, less chance of
cutting a conductor and having it ground out, but you cannot feed a plastic
box with a metal conduit, which may be the reason previous owners didn't

RBM wrote:
....

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define that
it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking it, as
electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they are
connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a ground, and
in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt. This is
probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor

Certainly, but...it's already there and been there for some years.

I'm not anal-enough to rip it out just because some previous doofus ran
a green wire when shoulda' pulled a
black/red/anything_but_white_or_green one...

Again, this is based on the previous qualification OP has correctly
identified the situation and the conductor is continuous on the neutral
from the breaker to the other end and is _NOT_ also a ground doubling as
a neutral but is merely a misuse of green-insulated wire as a neutral.

If one of the other faults is also present then it definitely ought to
be corrected.

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
...

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define
that it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking
it, as electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they
are connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a
ground, and in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt.
This is probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor

Certainly, but...it's already there and been there for some years.

I'm not anal-enough to rip it out just because some previous doofus ran a
green wire when shoulda' pulled a black/red/anything_but_white_or_green
one...

Again, this is based on the previous qualification OP has correctly
identified the situation and the conductor is continuous on the neutral
from the breaker to the other end and is _NOT_ also a ground doubling as a
neutral but is merely a misuse of green-insulated wire as a neutral.

If one of the other faults is also present then it definitely ought to be
corrected.


I agree, it's been there for a long time, the electricity certainly doesn't
care what color wire it's travelling through, the OP safely discovered it,
and can do the next best thing by remarking it.
But, it also sounds like the system may not be properly grounded either,
which makes me question how safe the wiring is. I can't remember ever using
a green conductor for a hot leg. The thought wouldn't even cross my mind,
and if I found myself in a real bind and had to do that, I would have
already remarked every termination so it was obvious to anyone that it's not
a ground. So here is a situation where an "electrician" had neither black
wire or black tape. I think I'd like to find out what else he didn't have.
Bottom line, anything the OP does, makes the situation safer that he found
it. In his original post, the OP said:

"No one except ME will probably ever see inside the outlet box, but
since it's semi-permanent I'd like to do it right."
--

On 7/4/2010 16:19, Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall...

I've seen similar wiring schemes in 50's wiring in Los Angeles, which
required conduit wiring at the time. Evidently at one time green was
not reserved for use as a grounding conductor. You may be able go
grandfather in what is in place now, but if you're extending the circuit
use another color.

Also keep in mind that flexible conduit is not suitable as a grounding
conductor, although it may have served such a purpose at one time. If
feasible you may want to consider running a new hot wire from the
breaker to the first outlet, leaving the green wire available for grounding.

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/2010 16:19, Josh wrote:
My 1950s vintage house has the armored flexible conduit. Most of the
circuits have the standard black/hot white/neutral color scheme. For
some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall...

I've seen similar wiring schemes in 50's wiring in Los Angeles, which
required conduit wiring at the time. Evidently at one time green was not
reserved for use as a grounding conductor.

You may be able go
grandfather in what is in place now, but if you're extending the circuit
use another color.

I believe that existing , previously approved wiring is inherently
grandfathered provided it hasn't been altered . If his entire house was
wired using green conductors for the hot legs, it might give credence to
your theory, but as it was just this one circuit,it's more likely that it
was just sloppy work. The original wiring didn't use an equipment ground and
didn't have grounded outlets. To be Nec compliant, the Op should not have
replaced the non grounding outlets with grounding outlets, unless he pulled
an equipment grounding conductor through the greenfield.


Also keep in mind that flexible conduit is not suitable as a grounding
conductor, although it may have served such a purpose at one time. If
feasible you may want to consider running a new hot wire from the breaker
to the first outlet, leaving the green wire available for grounding.

RBM wrote:
....

But, it also sounds like the system may not be properly grounded either,
which makes me question how safe the wiring is. ...

Well, we can't tell; I added the caveat first go that presuming OP did
indeed verify this is a continuous connection back to the neutral bus,
not the ground. If that really is the case, it isn't unsafe
electrically, just not Code-compliant on the colors.

It could quite easily be a two-wire circuit in the time frame which are
grandfathered.

--

On Jul 5, 2:24*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"terry" wrote in message

...
On Jul 5, 11:22 am, "RBM" wrote:





"dpb" wrote in message

...

Josh wrote:
That's a Code violation. If feasible, you should remove that green
wire,
and
replace it with black or red.

Pulling the entire green wire through and replacing it with blk or red
isn't feasible. The green and white enter the outlet box and don't
leave. But since there are other outlets in the living room on this
circuit, there has to be a junction box somewhere in the house that
the green wire goes into and branches out of. It's probably in the
attic, and since I have a relatively flat roof, hardly any crawl space
up there and lots of loose fill insulation, I ain't going up there!

I'm going to leave that green wire alone, maybe mark the ends and put
the warning sticker on the breaker box which one of you recommended,
and use black 12 gauge from the wire nut onwards.

I guess the original electrician was color blind. But the wire has
done its job for 51 years and counting without, as Shaun stated,
killing any electricians.

Marking it is good; I'd guess the run was done because was out of
black/red at the time and didn't take the time/trouble to go get
additional wire for one run. It would seem more likely was a DIY'er
rather than licensed electrician but in existing work it doesn't make a
whole lot of sense to pull it only for the insulation color.

If ends are marked and it is used as hot it will be patently clear to
any
electrician long before there's an issue. It's not quite like the
situation of white (neutral) in switch leg where there isn't another
black
conductor to be used but again since it's existing, "close enuff".

--I agree that clearly marking the ends of the wire are a better than
nothing solution, but as the OP said, there must be at least one other
junction box where this wire exists. It's one thing to see a green wire
attached to a breaker or the hot side of a receptacle, but it's another
thing to have a green wire in a junction box, with nothing to define
that
it's hot. I wouldn't be concerned about any "electrician" mistaking it,
as
electricians would tend to be more careful regarding wires they are
connecting to, but an amateur may easily believe that it is a ground,
and
in an awkward location like a tight attic, get himself hurt. This is
probably why the NEC prohibits remarking a green conductor- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

Anyone else can take me apart for this ............... but if it was
in my house and in good condition and the breaker is the appropriate
size for the gauge of 'smallest' wire on that whole circuit (see
below) then I'd generously mark both ends of that green hot wire
either with red nail polish or black paint or sleeve it with some
black tubing (also mark 'green wire' on the circuit breaker record)
and carry on from there.
But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????
BTW recently a neighbour working on his basement asked me me to hook
up two outlets from an existing circuit. He had used 14AWG for the
extension which he had bought because it was cheaper than 12AWG!
So I warned him before we started that THAT circuit MUST be breaker-ed
back at the panel at 15 amps. A short while ago he had an electrician
replace his old fuse panel with a breaker-ed panel. Fuse were an odd
choice, because our house built about same time has a generous supply
of breakers and two pony panels! Fortunately it was a 15 amp breaker-
ed circuit and with very little, if anything else, on it! So his
outlets will be OK.

Good point about the grounding. The OP hasn't clearly specified what the
conductors are in, but it does sound like some form of Greenfield, which is
only acceptable as an EGC for circuits 20 amps or less, and lengths not
exceeding 6 feet.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just a reminder to make it clear that we are discussing a Green 'HOT'
wire, not a Green neutral; the OP in part wrote this as follows in
his original post.

Quote:
"For some reason, the 20A circuit I want to modify uses a GREEN 12-
gauge
wire all the way from the breaker to the hot outlet terminal in my
garage wall. ......... "

Mention it' because in one post somebody seems to assume green =
neutral! But that's not what the OP posted.

"dpb" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
...

But, it also sounds like the system may not be properly grounded either,
which makes me question how safe the wiring is. ...

Well, we can't tell; I added the caveat first go that presuming OP did
indeed verify this is a continuous connection back to the neutral bus, not
the ground. If that really is the case, it isn't unsafe electrically,
just not Code-compliant on the colors.

It could quite easily be a two-wire circuit in the time frame which are
grandfathered.

It's not connected to the neutral buss. It's connected to the circuit
breaker. It's being used as a hot leg, not neutral.
--

RBM wrote:
....

It's not connected to the neutral buss. It's connected to the circuit
breaker. It's being used as a hot leg, not neutral.
....

Yeah, I _knew_ that and got crossed in response way back and had it as
both...my bad...

OP should verify the _real_ neutral is ok on the same circuit and
there's not some other wire there that is supposed to have been the hot
that is now the ground or such....

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

What do you expect that to accomplish? The OP never said he's missing a
neutral wire -- he said some previous person used a green wire as a hot
conductor. How will running a white neutral wire change that?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "John
Gilmer" wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on
existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on
w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

What do you expect that to accomplish? The OP never said he's missing a
neutral wire -- he said some previous person used a green wire as a hot
conductor. How will running a white neutral wire change that?

Whatever.

My point is that he can put the right colors into the conduit. The green
can be used as a ground, etc.

One of the justifications for conduit is that you can install what you need
and pull out what you don't need.

Since there is wire installed, all he has to do is pull one wire and measure
it and pick up the lengths and colors (& sizes) he wants at the home depost
or whatever.

In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "John
Gilmer" wrote:

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Josh wrote:
..

While I'll agree it's not Code-compliant as others have said, on
existing
work I'd not bother to change out a wire; just mark the ends and go on
w/
correct color coding from there.

This is, of course, assuming that they did actually do what is said and
not a mis-identification...


This wiring must be a conduit.

Unless I'm missing something, all you really need to do is run a while
neutral wire.

What do you expect that to accomplish? The OP never said he's missing a
neutral wire -- he said some previous person used a green wire as a hot
conductor. How will running a white neutral wire change that?

Whatever.

My point is that he can put the right colors into the conduit. The green
can be used as a ground, etc.

If that's what you meant, then that's what you should have said. :-)

In article , wrote:


BUT....... I'm wondering if green could legally be used as a hot wire
50 years ago?

No.

Just because green is not code as a hot wire NOW, does
not mean it was always against the code back in the old days.

Well, it was. AFAIK, the NEC has always mandated green for ground.

I have
seen every color imaginable used for hot leads. Black, Yellow, Orange,
Red, Purple, Brown, Light blue, Navy blue, Pink, and others.

And all of those meet Code. "Every color imaginable" is permitted to be used
for ungrounded (hot) conductors, except:
a) white
b) gray
c) green
d) green with yellow stripe
The first two are reserved for grounded (neutral) conductors, and the last two
for grounding conductors. Anything else is OK for hot wires.

Josh wrote:
But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????

When I bought the 50s vintage house in 1971, all the outlets were the
old 2-prong type. The only ground was outlet ears and/or outlet
mounting screws into the metal outlet boxes and back to the breaker
box via the flexible armored steel conduit. Over the years I've
replaced all the outlets with 3-prong type, drilled a hole in the back
of the outlet box for a sheet metal screw, and connected a 6 inch
green 12 gauge wire from the screw to the outlet ground connector.
That's the case with the garage outlet I'm modifying from single to
double.

The NEC would like you to use a screw with machine threads, at least 2
threads in the metal (250.8). (Typically 10-32.)

As an alternative, you've probably seen "self grounding" receptacles -
have a clip next to the mounting screws to improve the path to the metal
box. (I like pigtails, like you used, a lot better.)

Flex used to be allowed as a grounding conductor if the flex and
fittings were "approved for the purpose". Now it is allowed only when
several conditions are met, including a maximum of 6 ft in the path back
to the panel. When I change the wires in flex I add a ground wire.


If I use an AC voltmeter or a small neon circuit tester to measure
from outlet hot to neutral, it naturally reads approximately 117 v.
If I measure between the outlet hot to the metal outlet box, or the
ground connector on the outlet, it reads the same 117v so I know the
ground path is in tact all the way back to the breaker box.

Probably a good ground path, but the meter and neon light (and 3-light
testers) do not use enough current to tell you if it is a high
resistance (useless) path. A 200W light bulb from H-G is a lot more
reliable. I use a neon test light all the time, but not to make sure
there is a good ground.

--
bud--

Since there is wire installed, all he has to do is pull one wire and measure
it and pick up the lengths and colors (& sizes) he wants at the home depost
or whatever.


I'm the original poster, OP. Just to clarify:

The flex metal conduit is attached to the garage outlet box and to the
breaker box. It has the hot green wire and the white neutral wire
inside.
The green wire is attached to the breaker, and the white wire to the
breaker box's neutral & ground bus bar.

I would consider disconnecting the green wire from the 20A breaker and
pulling it through the conduit, with a proper replacement black wire
attached and trailing if it were a straight run from the breaker box
to the garage outlet. But since there are living room outlets also on
this circuit, and they are NOT fed from the garage outlet box, there
has to be a junction box in the wall or attic between the breaker box
and the garage outlet. Therefore, I can't pull the entire wire
through without gaining access to that hidden junction box, and
unhooking the wires (probably green also!) which are feeding those
other outlets. And due to the VERY small crawl space & loose
insulation in my attic, I'm not going up there. Based on my own
intuition and the opinions of other posters, I'm simply going to mark
each end of the existing green wire black, post a warning inside the
breaker box that there's one green wire that's hot, and leave it
alone.

As for the questions about whether the circuit is properly grounded, I
would assume the short green grounding wire from the new outlet to the
screw in the metal outlet box, and the metal conduit from the outlet
box to the breaker box should be adequate. I measure 117 VAC from the
outlet's hot wire to the outlet box screw, which to me means the
ground path is intact.

One question I do have is: Can I just use a black magic marker to
paint the ends of the green wire or do I have to use, as others
suggested, black electrical tape?

"Josh" wrote in message
...
Since there is wire installed, all he has to do is pull one wire and
measure
it and pick up the lengths and colors (& sizes) he wants at the home
depost
or whatever.


I'm the original poster, OP. Just to clarify:

The flex metal conduit is attached to the garage outlet box and to the
breaker box. It has the hot green wire and the white neutral wire
inside.
The green wire is attached to the breaker, and the white wire to the
breaker box's neutral & ground bus bar.

I would consider disconnecting the green wire from the 20A breaker and
pulling it through the conduit, with a proper replacement black wire
attached and trailing if it were a straight run from the breaker box
to the garage outlet. But since there are living room outlets also on
this circuit, and they are NOT fed from the garage outlet box, there
has to be a junction box in the wall or attic between the breaker box
and the garage outlet. Therefore, I can't pull the entire wire
through without gaining access to that hidden junction box, and
unhooking the wires (probably green also!) which are feeding those
other outlets. And due to the VERY small crawl space & loose
insulation in my attic, I'm not going up there. Based on my own
intuition and the opinions of other posters, I'm simply going to mark
each end of the existing green wire black, post a warning inside the
breaker box that there's one green wire that's hot, and leave it
alone.

As for the questions about whether the circuit is properly grounded, I
would assume the short green grounding wire from the new outlet to the
screw in the metal outlet box, and the metal conduit from the outlet
box to the breaker box should be adequate. I measure 117 VAC from the
outlet's hot wire to the outlet box screw, which to me means the
ground path is intact.


It may be, then again it may not be. You should read Bud's post.
It was found that the steel wrap on BX (AC) cable was not adequate and the
1962 Nec required a bonding wire installed. Current Nec doesn't allow
metallic flex as an equipment ground in lengths over six feet, probably for
the same reason.


One question I do have is: Can I just use a black magic marker to
paint the ends of the green wire or do I have to use, as others
suggested, black electrical tape?

On 07/07/2010 02:00 PM, bud-- wrote:
Josh wrote:
But is that circuit correctly grounded, is it?????

When I bought the 50s vintage house in 1971, all the outlets were the
old 2-prong type. The only ground was outlet ears and/or outlet
mounting screws into the metal outlet boxes and back to the breaker
box via the flexible armored steel conduit. Over the years I've
replaced all the outlets with 3-prong type, drilled a hole in the back
of the outlet box for a sheet metal screw, and connected a 6 inch
green 12 gauge wire from the screw to the outlet ground connector.
That's the case with the garage outlet I'm modifying from single to
double.

The NEC would like you to use a screw with machine threads, at least 2
threads in the metal (250.8). (Typically 10-32.)

Klein makes a nice "multi tap" that is a 6-in-1 tap on a screwdriver
handle, perfect for this app. Shoot a hole in the back of the box and
then tap it to 10-32 with the multi-tap, green screw, pigtail of bare
14AWG, et voila.

Only works if the box is already grounded, of course.

nate


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On 07/07/2010 02:04 PM, Josh wrote:
Since there is wire installed, all he has to do is pull one wire and measure
it and pick up the lengths and colors (& sizes) he wants at the home depost
or whatever.


I'm the original poster, OP. Just to clarify:

The flex metal conduit is attached to the garage outlet box and to the
breaker box. It has the hot green wire and the white neutral wire
inside.
The green wire is attached to the breaker, and the white wire to the
breaker box's neutral& ground bus bar.

I would consider disconnecting the green wire from the 20A breaker and
pulling it through the conduit, with a proper replacement black wire
attached and trailing if it were a straight run from the breaker box
to the garage outlet. But since there are living room outlets also on
this circuit, and they are NOT fed from the garage outlet box, there
has to be a junction box in the wall or attic between the breaker box
and the garage outlet. Therefore, I can't pull the entire wire
through without gaining access to that hidden junction box, and
unhooking the wires (probably green also!) which are feeding those
other outlets. And due to the VERY small crawl space& loose
insulation in my attic, I'm not going up there. Based on my own
intuition and the opinions of other posters, I'm simply going to mark
each end of the existing green wire black, post a warning inside the
breaker box that there's one green wire that's hot, and leave it
alone.

As for the questions about whether the circuit is properly grounded, I
would assume the short green grounding wire from the new outlet to the
screw in the metal outlet box, and the metal conduit from the outlet
box to the breaker box should be adequate. I measure 117 VAC from the
outlet's hot wire to the outlet box screw, which to me means the
ground path is intact.

One question I do have is: Can I just use a black magic marker to
paint the ends of the green wire or do I have to use, as others
suggested, black electrical tape?



That depends on your personal comfort level. NEC says "no."

Personally if I were to repull wire I would pull an add'l conductor
through for a definite ground as per modern practice, assuming that
there is enough room to do so. I'd pull out the green and pull another
green and a black or red behind it. If you're "frugal" you could pull a
black and a string through with the green, then pull the green (and
another string just in case) back in with the string.

nate


--
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