Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all
the way across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

On Jun 14, 9:36*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, rule is if he touches it then it needs to be up to current code.
It should have 4 wires. The ground and neutral miust be on isolated
form each other on different buss bars. There needs to be 2 ground
rods.

On the other hand if all he has is a 3 wire setup already installed
with no ground at the building and he's just looking to make it safer
then he could add a ground rod or two at the garage. But don't get it
inspected.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail


The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.

On Jun 15, 12:48*am, wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:16:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.

My bad, sorry. You are right about the rod.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Don't get me wrong I'm not against just adding a rod. But I thought
if you work on an area of your system that it then needs to be brought
up to current code?

"Ed B" wrote in message ...

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

You may add any supplemental grounding your heart desires. The rule is
that the grounded conductor may only be grounded at one location. The
grounded conductor is often mislabeled as the neutral, but it is always the
"white" wire and is bonded to ground at the service entrance. This is the
only location that it is allowed to be bonded. (your meter)

As long as you do not connect the "neutral" (grounded conductor) with the
grounding conductor, in this location, any new grounding is okay.

However, lightning protection is generally anecdotal. Essentially, you can't
win if it wants you to lose.

On Jun 14, 10:03*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 14, 9:36*pm, wrote:



On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, rule is if he touches it then it needs to be up to current code.
It should have 4 wires. *The ground and neutral must be on isolated
from each other on different buss bars. *There needs to be 2 ground
rods.

On the other hand if all he has is a 3 wire setup already installed
with no ground at the building and he's just looking to make it safer
then he could add a ground rod or two at the garage. *But don't get it
inspected.

No that is not the rule unless the authority having jurisdiction is
abusing her/his authority. Once that feeder is installed and accepted
by the AHJ it is good for the life of the structure unless more then a
certain percentage of the structure is remodeled under a single
permit. A Grounding Electrode System has always been required at
detached structures so if yours does not have one then it should not
have passed it's initial inspection.

To answer the original posters question if there is not already a
Grounding Electrode System at the detached structure it would be a
very good idea to install one.
--
Tom Horne

MIB wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

You may add any supplemental grounding your heart desires.

As Tom wrote, there should have been a grounding electrode in the
initial installation.

The rule is
that the grounded conductor may only be grounded at one location. The
grounded conductor is often mislabeled as the neutral, but it is always the
"white" wire and is bonded to ground at the service entrance. This is the
only location that it is allowed to be bonded. (your meter)

As long as you do not connect the "neutral" (grounded conductor) with the
grounding conductor, in this location, any new grounding is okay.

As RBM wrote, the practice with a 3 wire feeder was to bond the neutral
and ground at the garage. As greg wrote, starting the 2008 NEC 3 wire
feeders are not allowed for new wiring.


However, lightning protection is generally anecdotal. Essentially, you
can't
win if it wants you to lose.

A lightning strike to the garage requires lightning rods for protection.

A lightning strike coming from the house (from the service wires) on the
feeder may result in the feeder wires at very different potential than
the earth at the garage. Ground rods wouldn't help equalize the
potential much. Bonding to the mesh/rebar in the floor at installation
time would be nice. A suppressor at the feeder panel in the garage
would help protect equipment in the garage.

--
bud--

RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.


Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated



It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.

MIB wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

You may add any supplemental grounding your heart desires. The rule is
that the grounded conductor may only be grounded at one location. The
grounded conductor is often mislabeled as the neutral, but it is always the
"white" wire and is bonded to ground at the service entrance. This is the
only location that it is allowed to be bonded. (your meter)

As long as you do not connect the "neutral" (grounded conductor) with the
grounding conductor, in this location, any new grounding is okay.

However, lightning protection is generally anecdotal. Essentially, you
can't
win if it wants you to lose.


Understood, well put :-)

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or
do I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated



It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make me
comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.

If it was done legally to begin with, it should have had ground rods already
.. There is no reason the inspector should have a problem with it since it
was done before the code change.

On Jun 15, 10:14*pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.

Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. *I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. *Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. *I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? Or buried? If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.

On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:



RBM wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.

Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? Or buried? If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.

Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.

On Jun 16, 9:41*am, wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:

RBM wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.

Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. *I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. *Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. *I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. *Ask him
what he'll accept. *It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. *How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? *Or buried? *If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.

Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. * My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. * *And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That might be. If he's not willing to come out then take a few
pictures and go visit him. He's eventually going to have to inspect
it. It's actually in his interest for you to ask enough questions so
that what you do satisfies him. Otherwise he's just going to have to
make repeat visits and possibly going to **** you off. While you're
not likely to win any actual concessions from his management they
still do not like to hear from complaining citizens. At the end of
the day they do work for you. I don't see a downside to trying to
work with the guy up front to avoid problems later. If he blows you
off and then decides he has problems with your job you really do have
a valid complain then.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.

Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault.

Why shouldn't it have passed?

If it is because it was 3 wire with no ground wire, as several people
have already said that was allowed prior to the 2008 NEC.

And it is explicitly grandfathered in the 2008 NEC:
"250.32-B-Exception:
For existing premises wiring systems only, the grounded conductor
[neutral] run with the supply to the building or structure shall be
permitted to be connected to the building or structure disconnecting
means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding
or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded
or bonded where all the requirements of (1), (2) and (3) are met:"
(1) there is no ground wire from the source
(2) there are no metallic paths bonded to the grounding system [like
metal gas pipe]
(3) ground fault protection is not installed at the source of the feeders
And there are requirements on the size of the neutral - if it is the
same size as the hot conductors it complies.
end 250.32

There should have been a grounding electrode in the original
installation (these days typically 2 ground rods, in the good old days I
think you could use 1).

--
bud--

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message
...
On Jun 16, 9:41 am, wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:

RBM wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which
is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service
enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is
a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to
the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed
or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like
to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point
all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path
for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at
the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two
should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house,
the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel,
and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail

The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.

This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't
say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be
done.

Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? Or buried? If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.

Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That might be. If he's not willing to come out then take a few
pictures and go visit him. He's eventually going to have to inspect
it. It's actually in his interest for you to ask enough questions so
that what you do satisfies him. Otherwise he's just going to have to
make repeat visits and possibly going to **** you off. While you're
not likely to win any actual concessions from his management they
still do not like to hear from complaining citizens. At the end of
the day they do work for you. I don't see a downside to trying to
work with the guy up front to avoid problems later. If he blows you
off and then decides he has problems with your job you really do have
a valid complain then.


Clearly electrical inspection is different by location. In downstate NY,
inspection is done by private certified electrical inspection companies. The
only helpful information they'd be likely to give a homeowner is to call a
licensed electrician. Many are unlikely to give licensed electricians any
advice other than regarding subjective gray areas, and they could care less
how many trips they have to make to a job, as we have to pay them for each
one

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters
the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or
do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all
the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at
the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should
be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and
a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say
if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.

Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault.

Why shouldn't it have passed?

If it is because it was 3 wire with no ground wire, as several people have
already said that was allowed prior to the 2008 NEC.

And it is explicitly grandfathered in the 2008 NEC:
"250.32-B-Exception:
For existing premises wiring systems only, the grounded conductor
[neutral] run with the supply to the building or structure shall be
permitted to be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means
and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or
bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or
bonded where all the requirements of (1), (2) and (3) are met:"
(1) there is no ground wire from the source
(2) there are no metallic paths bonded to the grounding system [like metal
gas pipe]
(3) ground fault protection is not installed at the source of the feeders
And there are requirements on the size of the neutral - if it is the same
size as the hot conductors it complies.
end 250.32

There should have been a grounding electrode in the original installation
(these days typically 2 ground rods, in the good old days I think you
could use 1).

--
bud--

The OP hasn't specified, but since he seems sure that there are no rods, I
wonder if the feeder isn't in metallic pipe.

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .

As Tom wrote, there should have been a grounding electrode in the initial installation.

As RBM wrote, the practice with a 3 wire feeder was to bond the neutral and ground at
the garage. As greg wrote, starting the 2008 NEC 3 wire feeders are not allowed for new
wiring.

It is not allowed, and for some time, to re-bond the grounded conductor
unless a "new" service is established. At no time is it allowed for the
grounding conductor to carry current. Period, end of damned story.

A lightning strike to the garage requires lightning rods for protection.

A lightning strike coming from the house (from the service wires) on the feeder may
result in the feeder wires at very different potential than the earth at the garage.
Ground rods wouldn't help equalize the potential much. Bonding to the mesh/rebar in the
floor at installation time would be nice. A suppressor at the feeder panel in the
garage would help protect equipment in the garage.

Correct. The electrical grounding of the system is its "own" system.
Lightning protection is a separate system with strange results.

MIB wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .

As Tom wrote, there should have been a grounding electrode in the
initial installation.

As RBM wrote, the practice with a 3 wire feeder was to bond the
neutral and ground at the garage. As greg wrote, starting the 2008 NEC
3 wire feeders are not allowed for new wiring.

It is not allowed, and for some time, to re-bond the grounded conductor
unless a "new" service is established. At no time is it allowed for the
grounding conductor to carry current. Period, end of damned story.


Three electricians and an inspector have said the neutral of a 3 wire
feeder to a garage would, until the 2008 NEC, be bonded to the system
ground and earthing electrode in the garage.

In the current NEC, quoted in another post, this practice is explicitly
grandfathered.

Period, end of damned story.

--
bud--

RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters
the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or
do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all
the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at
the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should
be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and
a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say
if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.
Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault.
Why shouldn't it have passed?

If it is because it was 3 wire with no ground wire, as several people have
already said that was allowed prior to the 2008 NEC.

And it is explicitly grandfathered in the 2008 NEC:
"250.32-B-Exception:
For existing premises wiring systems only, the grounded conductor
[neutral] run with the supply to the building or structure shall be
permitted to be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means
and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding or
bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or
bonded where all the requirements of (1), (2) and (3) are met:"
(1) there is no ground wire from the source
(2) there are no metallic paths bonded to the grounding system [like metal
gas pipe]
(3) ground fault protection is not installed at the source of the feeders
And there are requirements on the size of the neutral - if it is the same
size as the hot conductors it complies.
end 250.32

There should have been a grounding electrode in the original installation
(these days typically 2 ground rods, in the good old days I think you
could use 1).

--
bud--

The OP hasn't specified, but since he seems sure that there are no rods, I
wonder if the feeder isn't in metallic pipe.

But as you said in your first post (if only the thread had ended
there...) a grounding electrode is required for either a 3 or 4 wire
feeder.

You don't need an electrode if the feed is just a multiwire branch circuit.

--
bud--

"MIB" wrote in message
...

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .

As Tom wrote, there should have been a grounding electrode in the initial
installation.

As RBM wrote, the practice with a 3 wire feeder was to bond the neutral
and ground at the garage. As greg wrote, starting the 2008 NEC 3 wire
feeders are not allowed for new wiring.

It is not allowed, and for some time, to re-bond the grounded conductor
unless a "new" service is established. At no time is it allowed for the
grounding conductor to carry current. Period, end of damned story.

A lightning strike to the garage requires lightning rods for protection.

A lightning strike coming from the house (from the service wires) on the
feeder may result in the feeder wires at very different potential than
the earth at the garage. Ground rods wouldn't help equalize the potential
much. Bonding to the mesh/rebar in the floor at installation time would
be nice. A suppressor at the feeder panel in the garage would help
protect equipment in the garage.

Correct. The electrical grounding of the system is its "own" system.
Lightning protection is a separate system with strange results.


Feel free to look in up in a pre 2008 code book: 250.32

"bud--" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters
the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is
a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed
or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like
to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all
the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path
for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at
the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should
be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel,
and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say
if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be
done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated

It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will
make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.
Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault.
Why shouldn't it have passed?

If it is because it was 3 wire with no ground wire, as several people
have already said that was allowed prior to the 2008 NEC.

And it is explicitly grandfathered in the 2008 NEC:
"250.32-B-Exception:
For existing premises wiring systems only, the grounded conductor
[neutral] run with the supply to the building or structure shall be
permitted to be connected to the building or structure disconnecting
means and to the grounding electrode(s) and shall be used for grounding
or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded
or bonded where all the requirements of (1), (2) and (3) are met:"
(1) there is no ground wire from the source
(2) there are no metallic paths bonded to the grounding system [like
metal gas pipe]
(3) ground fault protection is not installed at the source of the
feeders
And there are requirements on the size of the neutral - if it is the
same size as the hot conductors it complies.
end 250.32

There should have been a grounding electrode in the original
installation (these days typically 2 ground rods, in the good old days I
think you could use 1).

--
bud--

The OP hasn't specified, but since he seems sure that there are no rods,
I wonder if the feeder isn't in metallic pipe.

But as you said in your first post (if only the thread had ended there...)
a grounding electrode is required for either a 3 or 4 wire feeder.

You don't need an electrode if the feed is just a multiwire branch
circuit.

--
bud--

I'm just thinking it would be less cheesy to have a system with a pipe ecg
and no rod, than neither

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 16, 9:41 am, wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel, and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral - ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated
It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? Or buried? If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.
Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That might be. If he's not willing to come out then take a few
pictures and go visit him. He's eventually going to have to inspect
it. It's actually in his interest for you to ask enough questions so
that what you do satisfies him. Otherwise he's just going to have to
make repeat visits and possibly going to **** you off. While you're
not likely to win any actual concessions from his management they
still do not like to hear from complaining citizens. At the end of
the day they do work for you. I don't see a downside to trying to
work with the guy up front to avoid problems later. If he blows you
off and then decides he has problems with your job you really do have
a valid complain then.
Very true. I just want to educate myself on what to expect so I could
intelligently talk to the inspector about the potential problems we
might encounter. As suggested, I am going to visit him tomorrow with
some photos. I'll keep the group updated.

Again, thanks for all the valuable insight and wisdom provided.

On Jun 14, 7:56*pm, Ed B wrote:
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This
service feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be earthed or do
I use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground like to
carry currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point all
the way across the house by the meter pan.

Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path for
lightning to the closest point?

Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you

THIS GROUP IS NOT THE BEST TO POST TIS QUERY
YOU CAN'T CATCH FISH IN YOUR BATHTUB
BUT IF YOU GO OUT TO SEA OR A LAKE YOUR ODDS IMPROVE DRAMATICALLY
[;-)]

WHERE IS YOUR LIGHTNING ARRESTER ?

GO SEE THE INSPECTOR ?

YOU DO NOT WANT A POSSIBLE LIGHTNING STRIKE ON YOUR GARAGE TO TRAVEL
BACK INTO THE HOUSE
THAT IS REASONABLE
THOUGH TRICKY

NO SAYING WHAT MAY HAPPEN TO YOUR GARAGE NO MATTER WHAT ELECTRICAL
SAFETY MEASURE YOU TAKE [:-o] I'd arrest it there at the garage if I
had expensive stuff in there
BE SAFE ANWAYGO ALONG WITH THE LOCAL ORDINANCE SAY YOUR PRAYERS AND BE
GOOD YOUR NEIGHBORS

I'LL ASK THOR NICELY TO STAY AWAY FROM YOUR HOUSE ALTOGETHER [;-)]

I AM PROTEUS

Ed B wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 16, 9:41 am, wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service
enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. There
is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be
earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground
like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point
all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path
for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals
at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two
should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel,
and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't
say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be
done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated
It is existing, using a three wire feed. I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will
make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. Ask him
what he'll accept. It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? Or buried? If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.
Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That might be. If he's not willing to come out then take a few
pictures and go visit him. He's eventually going to have to inspect
it. It's actually in his interest for you to ask enough questions so
that what you do satisfies him. Otherwise he's just going to have to
make repeat visits and possibly going to **** you off. While you're
not likely to win any actual concessions from his management they
still do not like to hear from complaining citizens. At the end of
the day they do work for you. I don't see a downside to trying to
work with the guy up front to avoid problems later. If he blows you
off and then decides he has problems with your job you really do have
a valid complain then.
Very true. I just want to educate myself on what to expect so I could
intelligently talk to the inspector about the potential problems we
might encounter. As suggested, I am going to visit him tomorrow with
some photos. I'll keep the group updated.

Again, thanks for all the valuable insight and wisdom provided.
Update, spoke with the inspector. He has told me the panel and feed is
grandfathered therefore no rod required. Thanks again for all the sound
advice

On Jun 21, 10:08*pm, Ed B wrote:
Ed B wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 16, 9:41 am, wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
news:r5md16de4m9uoq91si90f6oiek5b0bc231@4ax. com...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service
enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There
is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be
earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground
like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point
all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path
for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals
at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two
should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel,
and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't
say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be
done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated
It is existing, using a three wire feed. *I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. *Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will
make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. *I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. *Ask him
what he'll accept. *It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. *How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? *Or buried? *If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.
Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. * My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. * *And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That might be. *If he's not willing to come out then take a few
pictures and go visit him. *He's eventually going to have to inspect
it. *It's actually in his interest for you to ask enough questions so
that what you do satisfies him. *Otherwise he's just going to have to
make repeat visits and possibly going to **** you off. *While you're
not likely to win any actual concessions from his management they
still do not like to hear from complaining citizens. *At the end of
the day they do work for you. *I don't see a downside to trying to
work with the guy up front to avoid problems later. *If he blows you
off and then decides he has problems with your job you really do have
a valid complain then.
Very true. *I just want to educate myself on what to expect so I could
intelligently talk to the inspector about the potential problems we
might encounter. *As suggested, I am going to visit him tomorrow with
some photos. *I'll keep the group updated.

Again, thanks for all the valuable insight and wisdom provided.

Update, spoke with the inspector. *He has told me the panel and feed is
grandfathered therefore no rod required. *Thanks again for all the sound
advice

WHAT ABOUT THE GRANDKIDS AND THE FACT THAT YOU ARE SAFELY GROUNDED
ALREADY
DID HE EVEN MENTION THEM [;-)]

GLAD WE COULD HELP

I AM PROTEUS

On Jun 21, 10:08*pm, Ed B wrote:
Ed B wrote:
jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 16, 9:41 am, wrote:
On Jun 16, 8:43 am, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Jun 15, 10:14 pm, Ed B wrote:
RBM wrote:
wrote in message
news:r5md16de4m9uoq91si90f6oiek5b0bc231@4ax. com...
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"Ed B" wrote in message
...
Situation is:
A residential home with a detached garage has a sub panel which is
serviced from a 50A breaker located in the main breaker box. *This
service
feed is approximately 20'.
The house has a meter pan/disconnect where the 200A service
enters the
house.
The breaker box is approximately 30' from the meter pan. *There
is a
grounding rod, earthed at the meter pan entrance which goes to the
breaker
panel.
The water lines are bonded.
My main question is should the sub panel in the garage be
earthed or do
I
use the ground wire from the main to act as my safety ground
like to
carry
currents from a lightning strike to the original earthed point
all the
way
across the house by the meter pan.
Since the garage is detached, wouldn't I want to provide a path
for
lightning to the closest point?
Any advice will be appreciated. :-)
Thank you
If the feeder to the garage is 4 wire, the grounds and neutrals
at the
garage should be on separate busses, and a ground rod or two
should be
driven at the garage and attached to the grounding detail.
If there is only three conductors in the feeder from the house, the
neutral
and ground busses should be bonded together in the garage panel,
and a
ground rod or two should be driven and attached to the neutral -
ground
detail
The 2008 code eliminated the 3 wire feeder entirely. You have to go
the 4 wire route described above.
This is not a new installation. It's existing, and the op doesn't
say if
it's 3 or 4 wire. He didn't ask how a new installation should be
done.
Thanks to all who responded, your advice is greatly appreciated
It is existing, using a three wire feed. *I am installing additional
electrical circuits off of this sub in the garage need to get it
inspected. *Once the inspector opens the panel I am afraid he will
make
me comply with the 2008 rule change. *I am not sure if it is
grand-fathered.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Best solution is to cal him now and explain what you have. *Ask him
what he'll accept. *It should not have passed inspection before but
that's not your fault. *How's the wire run between the house and
garage now, overhead? *Or buried? *If it's buried maybe you should ask
him out to look at it and that might help your case if he sees it will
be a pain to change.
Boy things must work differently where some of you are from. * My
experience has been that as a homeowner you can get an inspector to
answer some questions, but even then, it better be a direct code
related question, not an open ended, what;s the best way to do this
one. * *And as for a field visit, forget that without a permit and
then only for inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That might be. *If he's not willing to come out then take a few
pictures and go visit him. *He's eventually going to have to inspect
it. *It's actually in his interest for you to ask enough questions so
that what you do satisfies him. *Otherwise he's just going to have to
make repeat visits and possibly going to **** you off. *While you're
not likely to win any actual concessions from his management they
still do not like to hear from complaining citizens. *At the end of
the day they do work for you. *I don't see a downside to trying to
work with the guy up front to avoid problems later. *If he blows you
off and then decides he has problems with your job you really do have
a valid complain then.
Very true. *I just want to educate myself on what to expect so I could
intelligently talk to the inspector about the potential problems we
might encounter. *As suggested, I am going to visit him tomorrow with
some photos. *I'll keep the group updated.

Again, thanks for all the valuable insight and wisdom provided.

Update, spoke with the inspector. *He has told me the panel and feed is
grandfathered therefore no rod required. *Thanks again for all the sound
advice- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A reasonable man. Good news. That will make your project much simpler.