A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)


Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

On Jun 5, 8:30*pm, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. *The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - *With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
* * * * * * * * (You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: *Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
* * * * * * * * * Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: *Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - *I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

Biggest deal is the upfront cost. 30 gal tank heater is usually a DIY
job. Installer gets all the money you would save over life of the
tankless. You probably have hard water too living in FL, not good for
the tankless.

Jimmie

Jimmie

On Jun 5, 7:30*pm, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. *The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - *With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
* * * * * * * * (You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: *Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
* * * * * * * * * Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: *Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - *I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

a 9000w tankless of 3 gpm might wash your hands with the unit under
the sink, maybe you could use it for a shower if it was behind the
shower wall but its not whole house. What temp rise does it give at 3
gpm, and is it 70f supply in winter on the coldest week. Having the
unit maybe 30 ft away you might loose 5-10 f after the water travels a
distance. A real whole house but single use electric consumes a
massive amount of electricity and usualy needs a panlel upgrade, look
at some real name brands like Boch, Takagi, and see what their specs
are. There is a good reason people stay with electric tanks, mainly
they can consume as much as your whole house and require a new service
and panel. I have a gas tankless and you have to do alot of homework
to be sure it will work before spending any money, you know the tank
works and its reliable, many cheap tankless are not long term
reliable.

On Jun 5, 5:30*pm, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. *The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - *With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
* * * * * * * * (You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: *Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
* * * * * * * * * Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: *Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - *I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

You should ask yourself, with company mergers and bankruptcies, will
your tank-less water heater company be around for the next umpteen
years? So do you feel LUCKY?

On 6/5/2010 7:30 PM, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)


Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.



If you go tankless, go with one that runs on gas unless it's new
construction and extra electrical work needed won't be as expensive
as a retrofit. My friend and me installed a Bosch tankless that
uses NG for fuel and the water heater had a little water wheel
electrical generator that supplied power to the electronic ignition
for the burners. It was a slick system that worked very well.

TDD

On Jun 6, 1:30�am, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. �The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - �With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
� � � � � � � � (You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: �Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
� � � � � � � � � Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: �Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - �I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss /three quartersand
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half the energy. However 9kW is
OK for basins and showersbut you would be forever trying to fill a
bath. Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but thet
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.

On Jun 6, 1:30�am, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. �The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � � �Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - �With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
� � � � � � � � (You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: �Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
� � � � � � � � � Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: �Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - �I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.
Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.

"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)


Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.



One thing I did not see mentioned is that if the power goes out, the tank
can be heated by an average 5 kw generator. The tankless can not be heated.
NOt sure how the power outages are in your part of Florida. Where I am at
the power has been taken out for a week or more due to ice storms. I have
been lucky and only have it out for about 2 days sofar at any one time.

On Jun 5, 7:30*pm, BoyntonStu wrote:
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. *The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - *With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
* * * * * * * * (You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: *Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
* * * * * * * * * Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: *Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - *I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The tankless output is at a rated voltage probably 240, Your voltage
may be only 220 and go lower during high demand, so take their
published specs with great suspicion. The only way to know is buy one
and hook up garden hoses to test output and test it at the same length
run of what you have to measure temp drop from a long run, I think its
to small a unit. and how cold is incomming water in winter, that
colder water could ruin everything you paid for. Mine is a 117000 Btu
Ng unit, a comparable electric might consume 40,000 watts

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)


Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.



One thing I did not see mentioned is that if the power goes out, the tank
can be heated by an average 5 kw generator. The tankless can not be heated.
NOt sure how the power outages are in your part of Florida. Where I am at
the power has been taken out for a week or more due to ice storms. I have
been lucky and only have it out for about 2 days sofar at any one time.


Not to mention even without a generator you still have enough hot water
for a shower or two, or three.

BoyntonStu wrote in news:4b15316c-ea49-46e5-9bd1-
:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

snip
Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.



Yet another option :

http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/

And in a natural or man-made disaster, the water in the tank gives you
a sizable drinking water resevoir.

On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:





A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.




However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.


Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:
On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:





On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.



Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hotter the temp in your tank the greater the thermal loss, as it
looses heat and nears room temp heat loss slows. I did that often
turning off my electric when id go away, but my electric bill dropped
35$ a month when I went to Ng and with Ng it cost be maybe 10$ a
month. Yes there is alot of standby loss, figure this, you have in
your attic maybe R 35, but your water heater is probably near R12 with
2" of foam or R7.5 with fiberglass, there just isnt enough insulation
to not have a large standby loss. There are new very efficent tanks
with near 6" of foam or about R 36, they do have low standby loss but
they cost alot, I think GE has a new model.

"BoyntonStu" wrote in message
...
[snip]

There's one major advantage to the tankless unit - it will be responsible
for the two happiest days of your life --

1. When you buy this amazing advanced technology state-of-the-art item, and

2. When you finally get rid of the &$%*@% thing.

On Jun 7, 8:42*pm, "JimR" wrote:
"BoyntonStu" wrote in message

...
[snip]

There's one major advantage to the tankless unit - it will be responsible
for the two happiest days of your life --

1. *When you buy this amazing advanced technology state-of-the-art item, and

2. *When you finally get rid of the &$%*@% thing.

If you dont research it before you purchase it yes, likely you will be
left cold and mad. My 2 happiest days with my 117000 btu Ng Bosch are
when I get my 9.60 $ gas bill, and when I pay my 9.60$ gas bill, my
incomming is near 37f at -20f outside and my shower is hot without the
Bosch on high.

On Jun 7, 5:36*pm, ransley wrote:
On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:





On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.

Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hotter the temp in your tank the greater the thermal loss, as it
looses heat and nears room temp heat loss slows. I did that often
turning off my electric when id go away, but my electric bill dropped
35$ a month when I went to Ng and with Ng it cost be maybe 10$ a
month.

That drop from $35 a month to $10 a month was in going from electric
tank to tankless NG? If so, it confuses the issue of standby loss.
The more interesting comparison would be going from a relatively new
NG tank water heater to tankless. As I stated, my NG bill in the
summer when it's only used for heating water and occasional gas
grilling is under $20 a month.

Doing some googling I came upon this, where a guy claims to actually
have tested twelve 50 gal water heaters and determined that the
standby losses came to $5 a month. Unfortunately, he doesn't state
the fuel cost. Whether that number is large depends on your
perspective.


http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...413221215.html

In the late 80’s the plumbing codes were again amended requiring that
ALL water heaters must now have a minimum of R-12 insulation.

REF:
International Residential Code IRC-504.2.1(en)
Uniform Plumbing Code UPC-150(j)1A(c )
The codes specifically say…"No external blankets required"

Many local codes have amended that wording to say "External Blankets
Prohibited".

In my jurisdiction there is a $50 fine for even selling a water heater
blanket.

In order to meet the new insulation standards most water heater
manufacturers have discontinued the use of fiberglass insulation and
they now use cast in foam insulations, which often far exceed the
required R-12 minimum

Everyone seems to be fixated on the supposed high energy wasted to
standby losses from a tank type water heater, but in reality such is
not the case.

Two years ago our plumbing apprenticeship class, in co-operation with
the local gas company and a number of local hardware stores, appliance
dealers and plumbing suppliers set up a project to test the actual
cost of water heater standby losses.

Twelve different makes and models of residential contractor grade
50gal gas tank type water heaters were installed in an unheated
warehouse. All 12 units were fed from a common water line and each
water heater is supplied through a separate gas meter. Each water
heater is then fitted with one line on the output side that terminates
into a keyless hose bib beside the unit, thus there is no demand from
these water heaters therefore they represent standby losses only.

The water heaters were then filled and left standing with the
thermostats set at the code maximum of 120degF. Every month the gas
meters are read and the fuel cost is computed at the standard
residential rate for this area. After two years of following this
project it has been determined that the monthly average standby loss
is $5.02. (The worst case in the test is averaging $5.87mo.)

On Jun 8, 8:46*am, wrote:
On Jun 7, 5:36*pm, ransley wrote:





On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:

On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.

Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hotter the temp in your tank the greater the thermal loss, as it
looses heat and nears room temp heat loss slows. I did that often
turning off my electric when id go away, but my electric bill dropped
35$ a month when I went to Ng and with Ng it cost be maybe 10$ a
month.

That drop from $35 a month to $10 a month was in going from electric
tank to tankless NG? *If so, it confuses the issue of standby loss.
The more interesting comparison would be going from a relatively new
NG tank water heater to tankless. * As I stated, my NG bill in the
summer when it's only used for heating water and occasional gas
grilling is under $20 a month.

Doing some googling I came upon this, where a guy claims to actually
have tested twelve 50 gal water heaters and determined that the
standby losses came to $5 a month. * Unfortunately, he doesn't state
the fuel cost. * Whether that number is large depends on your
perspective.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...413221215.html

In the late 80’s the plumbing codes were again amended requiring that
ALL water heaters must now have a minimum of R-12 insulation.

REF:
International Residential Code IRC-504.2.1(en)
Uniform Plumbing Code UPC-150(j)1A(c )
The codes specifically say…"No external blankets required"

Many local codes have amended that wording to say "External Blankets
Prohibited".

In my jurisdiction there is a $50 fine for even selling a water heater
blanket.

In order to meet the new insulation standards most water heater
manufacturers have discontinued the use of fiberglass insulation and
they now use cast in foam insulations, which often far exceed the
required R-12 minimum

Everyone seems to be fixated on the supposed high energy wasted to
standby losses from a tank type water heater, but in reality such is
not the case.

Two years ago our plumbing apprenticeship class, in co-operation with
the local gas company and a number of local hardware stores, appliance
dealers and plumbing suppliers set up a project to test the actual
cost of water heater standby losses.

Twelve different makes and models of residential contractor grade
50gal gas tank type water heaters were installed in an unheated
warehouse. All 12 units were fed from a common water line and each
water heater is supplied through a separate gas meter. Each water
heater is then fitted with one line on the output side that terminates
into a keyless hose bib beside the unit, thus there is no demand from
these water heaters therefore they represent standby losses only.

The water heaters were then filled and left standing with the
thermostats set at the code maximum of 120degF. Every month the gas
meters are read and the fuel cost is computed at the standard
residential rate for this area. After two years of following this
project it has been determined that the monthly average standby loss
is $5.02. (The worst case in the test is averaging $5.87mo.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I beleve this.

tank water heaters work very well and even touhing the outside of mine
on a cold day its isnt very warm. its in my basement which unless i am
working oin something is above freeezing but not warm, perhaps 50
degrees.

so the stand by losses go to help warm the space in the winter.

On Jun 8, 7:46*am, wrote:
On Jun 7, 5:36*pm, ransley wrote:





On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:

On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.

Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hotter the temp in your tank the greater the thermal loss, as it
looses heat and nears room temp heat loss slows. I did that often
turning off my electric when id go away, but my electric bill dropped
35$ a month when I went to Ng and with Ng it cost be maybe 10$ a
month.

That drop from $35 a month to $10 a month was in going from electric
tank to tankless NG? *If so, it confuses the issue of standby loss.
The more interesting comparison would be going from a relatively new
NG tank water heater to tankless. * As I stated, my NG bill in the
summer when it's only used for heating water and occasional gas
grilling is under $20 a month.

Doing some googling I came upon this, where a guy claims to actually
have tested twelve 50 gal water heaters and determined that the
standby losses came to $5 a month. * Unfortunately, he doesn't state
the fuel cost. * Whether that number is large depends on your
perspective.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...413221215.html

In the late 80’s the plumbing codes were again amended requiring that
ALL water heaters must now have a minimum of R-12 insulation.

REF:
International Residential Code IRC-504.2.1(en)
Uniform Plumbing Code UPC-150(j)1A(c )
The codes specifically say…"No external blankets required"

Many local codes have amended that wording to say "External Blankets
Prohibited".

In my jurisdiction there is a $50 fine for even selling a water heater
blanket.

In order to meet the new insulation standards most water heater
manufacturers have discontinued the use of fiberglass insulation and
they now use cast in foam insulations, which often far exceed the
required R-12 minimum

Everyone seems to be fixated on the supposed high energy wasted to
standby losses from a tank type water heater, but in reality such is
not the case.

Two years ago our plumbing apprenticeship class, in co-operation with
the local gas company and a number of local hardware stores, appliance
dealers and plumbing suppliers set up a project to test the actual
cost of water heater standby losses.

Twelve different makes and models of residential contractor grade
50gal gas tank type water heaters were installed in an unheated
warehouse. All 12 units were fed from a common water line and each
water heater is supplied through a separate gas meter. Each water
heater is then fitted with one line on the output side that terminates
into a keyless hose bib beside the unit, thus there is no demand from
these water heaters therefore they represent standby losses only.

The water heaters were then filled and left standing with the
thermostats set at the code maximum of 120degF. Every month the gas
meters are read and the fuel cost is computed at the standard
residential rate for this area. After two years of following this
project it has been determined that the monthly average standby loss
is $5.02. (The worst case in the test is averaging $5.87mo.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They best comparison with a standardised test that is used and
accepted is EF , Energy Factor. What I have seen from reviewing Ng
tank and tankless at www.energystar.gov is the average Ng tank is
55-60 EF with some units going to 65 and condensing tanks to 85 or so,
even the expensive AO Smith Vertex or Cyclone, I also have a 190,000
Btu Cyclone. Ng Tankless EF start at 83 and go to 94 for the
condensing units like Takagi. EF ratings as I understand them, are
represented as a direct number relating to the amount of enregy used
to heat and maintain water temp and the amount wasted up the chimney
and by standby through the tank, so a 55 EF HD tank wastes 45 cents of
every dollar used to heat and maintain that water temp. Sure a tank
doesnt feel hot but nor does a roof in winter without any insulation.
My old "energy efficent" foamed electric had maybe R 14, but my code
minimums here are R 35 for the attic, The problem is the big family
grade tanlkess cost to dam much to buy, and get proper gas supply to.

On Jun 8, 8:02*am, " wrote:
On Jun 8, 8:46*am, wrote:





On Jun 7, 5:36*pm, ransley wrote:

On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:

On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.

TheHack wrote:
BoyntonStu wrote in news:4b15316c-ea49-46e5-9bd1-
:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

snip
Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.



Yet another option :

http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/

Forgets to mention that you are cooling the space around the water
heater. In Florida that is probably good. In Minnesota in the winter you
are also supplying heat from space heating to heat the water. Cost per
year figures may be bogus.

--
bud--

On Jun 8, 9:30*am, ransley wrote:
On Jun 8, 8:02*am, " wrote:





On Jun 8, 8:46*am, wrote:

On Jun 7, 5:36*pm, ransley wrote:

On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:

On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.

Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hotter the temp in your tank the greater the thermal loss, as it
looses heat and nears room temp heat loss slows. I did that often
turning off my electric when id go away, but my electric bill dropped
35$ a month when I went to Ng and with Ng it cost be maybe 10$ a
month.

That drop from $35 a month to $10 a month was in going from electric
tank to tankless NG? *If so, it confuses the issue of standby loss.
The more interesting comparison would be going from a relatively new
NG tank water heater to tankless. * As I stated, my NG bill in the
summer when it's only used for heating water and occasional gas
grilling is under $20 a month.

Doing some googling I came upon this, where a guy claims to actually
have tested twelve 50 gal water heaters and determined that the
standby losses came to $5 a month. * Unfortunately, he doesn't state
the fuel cost. * Whether that number is large depends on your
perspective.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...413221215.html

In the late 80’s the plumbing codes were again amended requiring that
ALL water heaters must now have a minimum of R-12 insulation.

REF:
International Residential Code IRC-504.2.1(en)
Uniform Plumbing Code UPC-150(j)1A(c )
The codes specifically say…"No external blankets required"

Many local codes have amended that wording to say "External Blankets
Prohibited".

In my jurisdiction there is a $50 fine for even selling a water heater
blanket.

In order to meet the new insulation standards most water heater
manufacturers have discontinued the use of fiberglass insulation and
they now use cast in foam insulations, which often far exceed the
required R-12 minimum

Everyone seems to be fixated on the supposed high energy wasted to
standby losses from a tank type water heater, but in reality such is
not the case.

Two years ago our plumbing apprenticeship class, in co-operation with
the local gas company and a number of local hardware stores, appliance
dealers and plumbing suppliers set up a project to test the actual
cost of water heater standby losses.

Twelve different makes and models of residential contractor grade
50gal gas tank type water heaters were installed in an unheated
warehouse. All 12 units were fed from a common water line and each
water heater is supplied through a separate gas meter. Each water
heater is then fitted with one line on the output side that terminates
into a keyless hose bib beside the unit, thus there is no demand from
these water heaters therefore they represent standby losses only.

The water heaters were then filled and left standing with the
thermostats set at the code maximum of 120degF. Every month the gas
meters are read and the fuel cost is computed at the standard
residential rate for this area. After two years of following this
project it has been determined that the monthly average standby loss
is $5.02. (The worst case in the test is averaging $5.87mo.)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I beleve this.

tank water heaters work very well and even touhing the outside of mine
on a cold day its isnt very warm. its in my basement which unless i am
working oin something is above freeezing but not warm, perhaps 50
degrees.

so the stand by losses go to help warm the space in the winter.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Knowing how 85% is up the chimney, the uninsulated part, with draft,
it just doesnt work in reality.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

lets see a cite for the 85% number

On Jun 8, 2:47*pm, " wrote:
On Jun 8, 9:30*am, ransley wrote:





On Jun 8, 8:02*am, " wrote:

On Jun 8, 8:46*am, wrote:

On Jun 7, 5:36*pm, ransley wrote:

On Jun 7, 2:25*pm, wrote:

On Jun 6, 12:12*pm, harry wrote:

On Jun 6, 1:30 am, BoyntonStu wrote:

A 9 KW tankless HWH manufacturer claims that it is sufficient for a
whole house at up to 3 GPM.

A 30 gal short tank HWH is about 30" tall and many are mounted over a
clothes dryer on a shelf.

That got me to thinking:

Size - not too important if hung.

Power - both 9 KW.

Instant hot water: - Tank water is preheated. The tankless requires
0.5 GPM to begin heating.

Cost - Conventional HWH is cheaper.

Longevity - Tankless is supposed to last twice as long.

Replacement elements - Conventional elements about $15 at Home Depot,
etc.
Tankless elements are not standard
and cost more.

Recovery - With 9 KW of heating available in both units they may be
equal.
(You must use up all the 30 gallons before additional
HW is needed.)

Upgrading: Conventional elements are available in 5, 5.5, and 6 KW
sizes.
Therefore a 12 KW 30 gallon is doable and it would
heat faster.

Efficiency: Tankless is slightly more efficient.

Location - I am in Florida where the input temperature is 70*F.

The main benifit of "tankless" or instantaneous water heaters is that
if you are storing hot water, there is a heat loss and
this can be considerable if you have the heater on 24/7. So a
tankless
is lots more efficient, you heat the water when you need it and the
amount you want. It can easliy save half or threequarters the
energy. *

Total nonsense. * In the summer, my entire gas bill which includes
both heating water for household use and occasional gas grilling is
under $20. * *It's pretty clear that only a small amount of that is
due to standby losses from the wayter heater tank. *The vast majority
is from water that is actually used. *If you turn off a water heater
and don't use the water, it will stay hot for a couple of days. I'd
like to see any credible reference that says the typical electric
water heater loses 1/2 or 3/4 of it's energy usage as standby losses.

However 9kW is OK for basins and showers but you would be
forever trying to fill a bath.

The stated output is 3GPM, which clearly is a lot faster than
forever. * And that is likely for water at a higher temp than you
would want for a bath, meaning you could also mix in some cold water.

Here in the UK instantaneous showers are very common but 9kW is
at the lower end, you need 12kW for a good shower.
For hand washing there are instantaneous heaters of only 3kW but they
are a spray. The water temperature is controlled by regulating the
amount of water, the heat output is fixed.

For bath filling over here we have special gas boilers that use the
entire output of the house heating boiler to instantaneously heat the
water. Usually start at 24kW (gas) input. *Nobody stores water over
here any more, not for years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The hotter the temp in your tank the greater the thermal loss, as it
looses heat and nears room temp heat loss slows. I did that often
turning off my electric when id go away, but my electric bill dropped
35$ a month when I went to Ng and with Ng it cost be maybe 10$ a
month.

That drop from $35 a month to $10 a month was in going from electric
tank to tankless NG? *If so, it confuses the issue of standby loss.
The more interesting comparison would be going from a relatively new
NG tank water heater to tankless. * As I stated, my NG bill in the
summer when it's only used for heating water and occasional gas
grilling is under $20 a month.

Doing some googling I came upon this, where a guy claims to actually
have tested twelve 50 gal water heaters and determined that the
standby losses came to $5 a month. * Unfortunately, he doesn't state
the fuel cost. * Whether that number is large depends on your
perspective.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...413221215.html

In the late 80’s the plumbing codes were again amended requiring that
ALL water heaters must now have a minimum of R-12 insulation.

REF:
International Residential Code IRC-504.2.1(en)
Uniform Plumbing Code UPC-150(j)1A(c )
The codes specifically say…"No external blankets required"

Many local codes have amended that wording to say "External Blankets
Prohibited".

In my jurisdiction there is a $50 fine for even selling a water heater
blanket.

In order to meet the new insulation standards most water heater
manufacturers have discontinued the use of fiberglass insulation and
they now use cast in foam insulations, which often far exceed the
required R-12 minimum

Everyone seems to be fixated on the supposed high energy wasted to
standby losses from a tank type water heater, but in reality such is
not the case.

Two years ago our plumbing apprenticeship class, in co-operation with
the local gas company and a number of local hardware stores, appliance
dealers and plumbing suppliers set up a project to test the actual
cost of water heater standby losses.

Twelve different makes and models of residential contractor grade
50gal gas tank type water heaters were installed in an unheated
warehouse. All 12 units were fed from a common water line and each
water heater is supplied through a separate gas meter. Each water
heater is then fitted with one line on the output side that terminates
into a keyless hose bib beside the unit, thus there is no demand from
these water heaters therefore they represent standby losses only.

The water heaters were then filled and left standing with the
thermostats set at the code maximum of 120degF. Every month the gas
meters are read and the fuel cost is computed at the standard
residential rate for this area. After two years of following this
project it has been determined that the monthly average standby loss
is $5.02. (The worst case in the test is averaging $5.87mo.)- Hide quoted text -

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I beleve this.

tank water heaters work very well and even touhing the outside of mine
on a cold day its isnt very warm. its in my basement which unless i am
working oin something is above freeezing but not warm, perhaps 50
degrees.

so the stand by losses go to help warm the space in the winter.- Hide quoted text -

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Knowing how 85% is up the chimney, the uninsulated part, with draft,
it just doesnt work in reality.- Hide quoted text -

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lets see a cite for the 85% number- Hide quoted text -

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Why dont you use google , I did.