On Jun 4, 1:02*pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 4, 3:43*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:





We had a near lightening strike that sent a surge though the power lines.
Not sure where the hit was, but I did have some damage.

My wife called me at work after a thunderstorm and said she saw a big red
ball in the driveway and then some of the lights went out. *The doorbell
rang and would not stop ringing. *I told her to take a wire off the chimes
and they stopped, but a breaker was tripped and would not reset. *The bell
button has a diode in it and that may have taken the hit.

When I got home, I took the two wires off of the breaker and it still did
not reset so I replaced the breaker. *One of the circuits was OK, the other
had a short and tripped the breaker. *Since it was not getting dark and it
was still raining, the hunt would wait a day. *Next day, I went out to the
(detached) garage and found an X-10 module I use to control an outdoor light
was blown apart and burnt. *The plastic cover was gone, the insides were
soot covered. * I'm wondering if the jolt came in that way or out, it was
the furthest away from the electric panel.

I'm going to replace the receptacle it was plugged into also. *I've not
pulled that out yet, but I'm not taking any chances. *Once replaced. I'll
hook the wire back to the breaker.

Losses we *HD TV, Surround sound receiver, X-10 module, computer router,
doorbell.

The good news is: *I now have a 47" TV with far better picture than my 5
year old 32" and a better sound system.
More stuff is on surge protectors too.

It's quite likely your actual house was struck, especially if it is
isolated and has any high points. * You're wife could have been killed
so count yourselves lucky.
You need to get external lighning protection rods if you house IS high
and is away from other high points. *These are quite expensive and
need regular checks. You could do these yourself if your technical.
The "spike" or transient protection device that will protect agains
the strike you experienced has not been made and never will be. * You
can get deviced that will protect against strikes on the electric
distribution system that are miles awy but that's all. *All these
devices do is store the enegy of the transient in a capacitor or coil
& then discharge it to ground. *So they will cope with switching
transients and similar but that's all.

Nonsense. There are good whole house surge protectors available that
will handle a 50Kamp surge. That might not equate to a direct strike
of lightning at the protector, but it's also not limited to strikes
"miles away". Even in the case of a direct strike that hits an
overhead utility line coming into the house it's very unlikely that
the full lightning current is going to make it to the panel. Instead
it will arc and a lot of the main current will likely find a path to
ground on it's way into the house. Arcing to the grounded conduit is
one example. What;s left can be dealt with by a good sized whole
house surge protector that is properly installed,

Also, surge protectors DO NOT store energy and then discharge it.
They are typicall made from MOVs that turn on above a few hundred
volts and shunt the current to ground.


Next time there's a big storm, the only protection for your electrical
appliances is to turn the electricity isolator off *where it enters
the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There;s a wealth of information that says that isn't the only
alternative. Does the phone and cable company turn off their systems
during storms?

On Jun 5, 10:57�pm, wrote:
On Jun 4, 1:02�pm, harry wrote:





On Jun 4, 3:43�pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

We had a near lightening strike that sent a surge though the power lines.
Not sure where the hit was, but I did have some damage.

My wife called me at work after a thunderstorm and said she saw a big red
ball in the driveway and then some of the lights went out. �The doorbell
rang and would not stop ringing. �I told her to take a wire off the chimes
and they stopped, but a breaker was tripped and would not reset. �The bell
button has a diode in it and that may have taken the hit.

When I got home, I took the two wires off of the breaker and it still did
not reset so I replaced the breaker. �One of the circuits was OK, the other
had a short and tripped the breaker. �Since it was not getting dark and it
was still raining, the hunt would wait a day. �Next day, I went out to the
(detached) garage and found an X-10 module I use to control an outdoor light
was blown apart and burnt. �The plastic cover was gone, the insides were
soot covered. � I'm wondering if the jolt came in that way or out, it was
the furthest away from the electric panel.

I'm going to replace the receptacle it was plugged into also. �I've not
pulled that out yet, but I'm not taking any chances. �Once replaced. I'll
hook the wire back to the breaker.

Losses we �HD TV, Surround sound receiver, X-10 module, computer router,
doorbell.

The good news is: �I now have a 47" TV with far better picture than my 5
year old 32" and a better sound system.
More stuff is on surge protectors too.

It's quite likely your actual house was struck, especially if it is
isolated and has any high points. � You're wife could have been killed
so count yourselves lucky.
You need to get external lighning protection rods if you house IS high
and is away from other high points. �These are quite expensive and
need regular checks. You could do these yourself if your technical.
The "spike" or transient protection device that will protect agains
the strike you experienced has not been made and never will be. � You
can get deviced that will protect against strikes on the electric
distribution system that are miles awy but that's all. �All these
devices do is store the enegy of the transient in a capacitor or coil
& then discharge it to ground. �So they will cope with switching
transients and similar but that's all.

Nonsense. � There are good whole house surge protectors available that
will handle a 50Kamp surge. � That might not equate to a direct strike
of lightning at the protector, but it's also not limited to strikes
"miles away". � Even in the case of a direct strike that hits an
overhead utility line coming into the house it's very unlikely that
the full lightning current is going to make it to the panel. � Instead
it will arc and a lot of the main current will likely find a path to
ground on it's way into the house. � Arcing to the grounded conduit is
one example. �What;s left can be dealt with by a good sized whole
house surge protector that is properly installed,

Also, surge protectors DO NOT store energy and then discharge it.
They are typicall made from MOVs that turn on above a few hundred
volts and shunt the current to ground.

Next time there's a big storm, the only protection for your electrical
appliances is to turn the electricity isolator off �where it enters
the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There;s a wealth of information that says that isn't the only
alternative. � Does the phone and cable company turn off their systems
during storms?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, that's why they get hits. The power company doesn,t have too
many supersensitive devices.

I have always thought that the best procedure was to unplug everything
during a thunderstorm. That means the line cords (to sensitive
equipment), phone lines, satellite connections, and TV antennas. A
direct strike to the house would probably burn the house down.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

On Jun 6, 8:11*am, (---MIKE---) wrote:
I have always thought that the best procedure was to unplug everything
during a thunderstorm. *That means the line cords (to sensitive
equipment), phone lines, satellite connections, and TV antennas. *A
direct strike to the house would probably burn the house down.

* * * * * * * * * ---MIKE---In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

* (44° 15' *N - Elevation 1580')

That's an option IF you happen to be home at the time. Even if
you're home, are you gonna get up at 3AM when you hear the first clap
of thunder? Or are you gonna unplug everything before you go to bed
each night and each time you leave the house when there is a chance of
thunderstorms?

In short, totally totally impractical for most people and situations.

Also, does your phone company or cable company unplug everything
during a thunderstorm and shut down? How about websites like
Google, do they pull the plug? If they can have effective
protection, so can your home.

wrote the following:
On Jun 6, 8:11 am, (---MIKE---) wrote:

I have always thought that the best procedure was to unplug everything
during a thunderstorm. That means the line cords (to sensitive
equipment), phone lines, satellite connections, and TV antennas. A
direct strike to the house would probably burn the house down.

---MIKE---In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')


That's an option IF you happen to be home at the time. Even if
you're home, are you gonna get up at 3AM when you hear the first clap
of thunder? Or are you gonna unplug everything before you go to bed
each night and each time you leave the house when there is a chance of
thunderstorms?

In short, totally totally impractical for most people and situations.

Also, does your phone company or cable company unplug everything
during a thunderstorm and shut down? How about websites like
Google, do they pull the plug? If they can have effective
protection, so can your home.


Roof top lightning rods directly grounded in the earth.
But then you are attracting lightning strikes. :-)

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Jun 6, 9:33*am, willshak wrote:
wrote the following:





On Jun 6, 8:11 am, (---MIKE---) wrote:

I have always thought that the best procedure was to unplug everything
during a thunderstorm. *That means the line cords (to sensitive
equipment), phone lines, satellite connections, and TV antennas. *A
direct strike to the house would probably burn the house down.

* * * * * * * * * ---MIKE---In the White Mountains of New Hampshire

* (44 15' *N - Elevation 1580')

That's an option IF you happen to be home at the time. * Even if
you're home, are you gonna get up at 3AM when you hear the first clap
of thunder? * Or are you gonna unplug everything before you go to bed
each night and each time you leave the house when there is a chance of
thunderstorms?

In short, totally totally impractical for most people and situations.

Also, does your phone company or cable company unplug everything
during a thunderstorm and shut down? * *How about websites like
Google, do they pull the plug? * If they can have effective
protection, so can your home.

Roof top lightning rods directly grounded in the earth.
But then you are attracting lightning strikes. :-)

--

Unfortunately, while they will offer protection from a direct
lightning strike to the house structure which is relatively rare, they
won't do anything to deal with the far more common scenario of a surge
from lightning or another source, arriving via the AC power line.
For that, a whole house AC surge protector, properly protected cable/
phone lines entering the house and supplemented with point of use
protection that clamps multiple paths, ie AC, cable, phone, etc for
devices that have those multiple inputs is the solution that works.






Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

willshak wrote:

Roof top lightning rods directly grounded in the earth.
But then you are attracting lightning strikes. :-)


I have never seen people in the protection field say that lightning rods
attract lightning strikes that wouldn't likely hit the building anyway.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Jun 4, 1:02 pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 4, 3:43 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:





We had a near lightening strike that sent a surge though the power lines.
Not sure where the hit was, but I did have some damage.
My wife called me at work after a thunderstorm and said she saw a big red
ball in the driveway and then some of the lights went out. The doorbell
rang and would not stop ringing. I told her to take a wire off the chimes
and they stopped, but a breaker was tripped and would not reset. The bell
button has a diode in it and that may have taken the hit.
When I got home, I took the two wires off of the breaker and it still did
not reset so I replaced the breaker. One of the circuits was OK, the other
had a short and tripped the breaker. Since it was not getting dark and it
was still raining, the hunt would wait a day. Next day, I went out to the
(detached) garage and found an X-10 module I use to control an outdoor light
was blown apart and burnt. The plastic cover was gone, the insides were
soot covered. I'm wondering if the jolt came in that way or out, it was
the furthest away from the electric panel.
I'm going to replace the receptacle it was plugged into also. I've not
pulled that out yet, but I'm not taking any chances. Once replaced. I'll
hook the wire back to the breaker.
Losses we HD TV, Surround sound receiver, X-10 module, computer router,
doorbell.
The good news is: I now have a 47" TV with far better picture than my 5
year old 32" and a better sound system.
More stuff is on surge protectors too.
It's quite likely your actual house was struck, especially if it is
isolated and has any high points. You're wife could have been killed
so count yourselves lucky.
You need to get external lighning protection rods if you house IS high
and is away from other high points. These are quite expensive and
need regular checks. You could do these yourself if your technical.
The "spike" or transient protection device that will protect agains
the strike you experienced has not been made and never will be. You
can get deviced that will protect against strikes on the electric
distribution system that are miles awy but that's all. All these
devices do is store the enegy of the transient in a capacitor or coil
& then discharge it to ground. So they will cope with switching
transients and similar but that's all.

Nonsense. There are good whole house surge protectors available that
will handle a 50Kamp surge. That might not equate to a direct strike
of lightning at the protector, but it's also not limited to strikes
"miles away". Even in the case of a direct strike that hits an
overhead utility line coming into the house it's very unlikely that
the full lightning current is going to make it to the panel. Instead
it will arc and a lot of the main current will likely find a path to
ground on it's way into the house. Arcing to the grounded conduit is
one example. What;s left can be dealt with by a good sized whole
house surge protector that is properly installed,

Also, surge protectors DO NOT store energy and then discharge it.
They are typicall made from MOVs that turn on above a few hundred
volts and shunt the current to ground.


Next time there's a big storm, the only protection for your electrical
appliances is to turn the electricity isolator off where it enters
the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There;s a wealth of information that says that isn't the only
alternative. Does the phone and cable company turn off their systems
during storms?

I don't know where this falls into this thread, but there are surge
suppressors that not only clamp/shunt the current to ground, but inline
before that they have something like 400 amp fuses. So we are not
always trying to shunt thousands of amps to ground, only a few hundred,
then the fuse blows.

Jim Yanik wrote:
willshak wrote in
m:

Roof top lightning rods directly grounded in the earth.
But then you are attracting lightning strikes. :-)


that still will not stop lightning from striking power lines,phone
lines,cableTV lines(on the poles),nearby trees,other structures,and
entering your home through those vulnerabilities.

there sre some lightning rod systems that actually prevent strikes.
They use a ball of spikes on the tip of the rod,to bleed off charges before
they become major strike attractors.


There are are one or two manufacturers that make that claim. I have not
seen anyone in the field that believes them, and tests by NASA, if I
remember right, found they didn't prevent strikes. They do work as
lightning rods.

--
bud--

Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 4, 1:02 pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 4, 3:43 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:





We had a near lightening strike that sent a surge though the power
lines.
Not sure where the hit was, but I did have some damage.
My wife called me at work after a thunderstorm and said she saw a
big red
ball in the driveway and then some of the lights went out. The
doorbell
rang and would not stop ringing. I told her to take a wire off the
chimes
and they stopped, but a breaker was tripped and would not reset.
The bell
button has a diode in it and that may have taken the hit.
When I got home, I took the two wires off of the breaker and it
still did
not reset so I replaced the breaker. One of the circuits was OK,
the other
had a short and tripped the breaker. Since it was not getting dark
and it
was still raining, the hunt would wait a day. Next day, I went out
to the
(detached) garage and found an X-10 module I use to control an
outdoor light
was blown apart and burnt. The plastic cover was gone, the insides
were
soot covered. I'm wondering if the jolt came in that way or out,
it was
the furthest away from the electric panel.
I'm going to replace the receptacle it was plugged into also. I've not
pulled that out yet, but I'm not taking any chances. Once replaced.
I'll
hook the wire back to the breaker.
Losses we HD TV, Surround sound receiver, X-10 module, computer
router,
doorbell.
The good news is: I now have a 47" TV with far better picture than
my 5
year old 32" and a better sound system.
More stuff is on surge protectors too.
It's quite likely your actual house was struck, especially if it is
isolated and has any high points. You're wife could have been killed
so count yourselves lucky.
You need to get external lighning protection rods if you house IS high
and is away from other high points. These are quite expensive and
need regular checks. You could do these yourself if your technical.
The "spike" or transient protection device that will protect agains
the strike you experienced has not been made and never will be. You
can get deviced that will protect against strikes on the electric
distribution system that are miles awy but that's all. All these
devices do is store the enegy of the transient in a capacitor or coil
& then discharge it to ground. So they will cope with switching
transients and similar but that's all.

Nonsense. There are good whole house surge protectors available that
will handle a 50Kamp surge. That might not equate to a direct strike
of lightning at the protector, but it's also not limited to strikes
"miles away". Even in the case of a direct strike that hits an
overhead utility line coming into the house it's very unlikely that
the full lightning current is going to make it to the panel. Instead
it will arc and a lot of the main current will likely find a path to
ground on it's way into the house. Arcing to the grounded conduit is
one example. What;s left can be dealt with by a good sized whole
house surge protector that is properly installed,

Also, surge protectors DO NOT store energy and then discharge it.
They are typicall made from MOVs that turn on above a few hundred
volts and shunt the current to ground.


Next time there's a big storm, the only protection for your electrical
appliances is to turn the electricity isolator off where it enters
the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There;s a wealth of information that says that isn't the only
alternative. Does the phone and cable company turn off their systems
during storms?

I don't know where this falls into this thread, but there are surge
suppressors that not only clamp/shunt the current to ground, but inline
before that they have something like 400 amp fuses. So we are not
always trying to shunt thousands of amps to ground, only a few hundred,
then the fuse blows.

One would have to look at info from the manufacturer.

If the suppressor was in a service panel and the inline fuse started to
open the surge would just arc across the fuse (until there might be an
alternate path, like arc-over from busbars to enclosure if the voltage
got to about 6kV).

But a surge is, by definition, a very short event. It is over before the
fuse could start to open. So what is the fuse for?

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 4, 1:02 pm, harry wrote:
On Jun 4, 3:43 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:





We had a near lightening strike that sent a surge though the power
lines.
Not sure where the hit was, but I did have some damage.
My wife called me at work after a thunderstorm and said she saw a
big red
ball in the driveway and then some of the lights went out. The
doorbell
rang and would not stop ringing. I told her to take a wire off the
chimes
and they stopped, but a breaker was tripped and would not reset.
The bell
button has a diode in it and that may have taken the hit.
When I got home, I took the two wires off of the breaker and it
still did
not reset so I replaced the breaker. One of the circuits was OK,
the other
had a short and tripped the breaker. Since it was not getting dark
and it
was still raining, the hunt would wait a day. Next day, I went out
to the
(detached) garage and found an X-10 module I use to control an
outdoor light
was blown apart and burnt. The plastic cover was gone, the insides
were
soot covered. I'm wondering if the jolt came in that way or out,
it was
the furthest away from the electric panel.
I'm going to replace the receptacle it was plugged into also. I've
not
pulled that out yet, but I'm not taking any chances. Once
replaced. I'll
hook the wire back to the breaker.
Losses we HD TV, Surround sound receiver, X-10 module, computer
router,
doorbell.
The good news is: I now have a 47" TV with far better picture than
my 5
year old 32" and a better sound system.
More stuff is on surge protectors too.
It's quite likely your actual house was struck, especially if it is
isolated and has any high points. You're wife could have been killed
so count yourselves lucky.
You need to get external lighning protection rods if you house IS high
and is away from other high points. These are quite expensive and
need regular checks. You could do these yourself if your technical.
The "spike" or transient protection device that will protect agains
the strike you experienced has not been made and never will be. You
can get deviced that will protect against strikes on the electric
distribution system that are miles awy but that's all. All these
devices do is store the enegy of the transient in a capacitor or coil
& then discharge it to ground. So they will cope with switching
transients and similar but that's all.

Nonsense. There are good whole house surge protectors available that
will handle a 50Kamp surge. That might not equate to a direct strike
of lightning at the protector, but it's also not limited to strikes
"miles away". Even in the case of a direct strike that hits an
overhead utility line coming into the house it's very unlikely that
the full lightning current is going to make it to the panel. Instead
it will arc and a lot of the main current will likely find a path to
ground on it's way into the house. Arcing to the grounded conduit is
one example. What;s left can be dealt with by a good sized whole
house surge protector that is properly installed,

Also, surge protectors DO NOT store energy and then discharge it.
They are typicall made from MOVs that turn on above a few hundred
volts and shunt the current to ground.


Next time there's a big storm, the only protection for your electrical
appliances is to turn the electricity isolator off where it enters
the house.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There;s a wealth of information that says that isn't the only
alternative. Does the phone and cable company turn off their systems
during storms?

I don't know where this falls into this thread, but there are surge
suppressors that not only clamp/shunt the current to ground, but
inline before that they have something like 400 amp fuses. So we are
not always trying to shunt thousands of amps to ground, only a few
hundred, then the fuse blows.

One would have to look at info from the manufacturer.

If the suppressor was in a service panel and the inline fuse started to
open the surge would just arc across the fuse (until there might be an
alternate path, like arc-over from busbars to enclosure if the voltage
got to about 6kV).

The one I saw was before the panel and the fuses were about 1 foot long
to prevent arc over. Wish I could find the website.

But a surge is, by definition, a very short event. It is over before the
fuse could start to open. So what is the fuse for?

Well if they blow then you know they are fast enough.

Tony wrote:
bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:

I don't know where this falls into this thread, but there are surge
suppressors that not only clamp/shunt the current to ground, but
inline before that they have something like 400 amp fuses. So we are
not always trying to shunt thousands of amps to ground, only a few
hundred, then the fuse blows.

One would have to look at info from the manufacturer.

If the suppressor was in a service panel and the inline fuse started
to open the surge would just arc across the fuse (until there might be
an alternate path, like arc-over from busbars to enclosure if the
voltage got to about 6kV).

The one I saw was before the panel and the fuses were about 1 foot long
to prevent arc over. Wish I could find the website.

But a surge is, by definition, a very short event. It is over before
the fuse could start to open. So what is the fuse for?

Well if they blow then you know they are fast enough.

I think there is zero possibility the fuses would open during a surge.
Fuses aren't fast enough.

But there is no point of having a service surge suppressor if it doesn't
shunt thousands of amps to ground during a surge. MOVs can handle very
large currents for the approx 100 microseconds of a surge. That duration
would not likely open a 400A fuse (if it did, the fuse would not fully
open until the surge was long over).

If MOVs fail you want to disconnect them. The fuses are probably for
that. But 400A sounds way too high - the MOVs would likely self
destruct. (They should disconnect before they self destruct.)

Opening on crossed power wires (from gfretwell) could be why the fuses
are long. They should have to have a voltage rating equal to the primary
voltage, as he said. A 400A rating sounds way too high for that too.
From a different post, Martzloff says temporary overvoltage (like
crossed power lines) is the major cause of suppressor failures.

Are the fuses downstream from the service disconnect, with the protected
load downstream from the fuses? Then the fuses could protect the load
from crossed power lines.

Is the surge protection an arc gap instead of MOVs?

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
Tony wrote:

I don't know where this falls into this thread, but there are surge
suppressors that not only clamp/shunt the current to ground, but
inline before that they have something like 400 amp fuses. So we are
not always trying to shunt thousands of amps to ground, only a few
hundred, then the fuse blows.

One would have to look at info from the manufacturer.

If the suppressor was in a service panel and the inline fuse started to
open the surge would just arc across the fuse (until there might be an
alternate path, like arc-over from busbars to enclosure if the voltage
got to about 6kV).

But a surge is, by definition, a very short event. It is over before the
fuse could start to open. So what is the fuse for?


Aren't the fuses to prevent fire if the MOV shorts?

Decades ago, Global Village modems had tiny fuses that often blew in
thunderstorms. They had to be shipped back to the factory for fuse
replacement. Upgrading to a better surge suppressor on the phone line
stopped the problem.

In article ,
(---MIKE---) wrote:

I have always thought that the best procedure was to unplug everything
during a thunderstorm. That means the line cords (to sensitive
equipment), phone lines, satellite connections, and TV antennas. A
direct strike to the house would probably burn the house down.


---MIKE---
In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
(44° 15' N - Elevation 1580')

Years ago I lost a TV during a thunderstorm when lightning struck the
antenna. A few years later, I woke up in the middle of the night to a
storm and decided to go unplug the TV and disconnect the antenna leads.
As I walked out into the living room, the TV screen lit up brightly
momentarily, then went dark. I lost the TV of course, but I'm glad I
didn't have my fingers on it at that moment.

The strike went through the tuner, then found its way into the AC line
and distributed itself through the house, exploding about six outlets,
then taking out the transformer on the pole 100 feet from my house. I
was without power for two days, as the power company kept insisting that
all service had been restored in my neighborhood.

On Jun 6, 5:23*pm, Tony wrote:
*So we are not always trying to shunt thousands of amps to ground,
only a few hundred, then the fuse blows.

Now add numbers to your claims. What is the voltage number for that
fuse? How does a fuse that takes tens of milliseconds or longer to
trip, stop a surge that is done in microseconds.

Claim without numbers are always suspect. What are voltage number
for that fuse? How does the millisecond fuse stop microsecond
surges? Or did they forget to provide those numbers?