Buying new TV
 

Bob Villa wrote:
On May 19, 2:32 pm, wrote:
Whats the difference ?
I can get a Sony LCD 32" 720p 60hz. for $ 404.00
A Vizio 32" 1080p 60 hz. for $494.00
or a Vizio 32" 1080p 120 hz. for $ $548.00

Which is the best buy ?

Whats the difference between 720p& 1080p
& 60 hz.or 120 hz.
Is there really a difference i can see ?

--
Dell Inspiron
Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz
2 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Bottom line...go with the Sony deal.
Hi,
Sony has 4 different quality level. Look at the model no. prefix letters.

Buying new TV
 

On 05/22/2010 02:31 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Bob Villa wrote:
On May 19, 2:32 pm, wrote:
Whats the difference ?
I can get a Sony LCD 32" 720p 60hz. for $ 404.00
A Vizio 32" 1080p 60 hz. for $494.00
or a Vizio 32" 1080p 120 hz. for $ $548.00

Which is the best buy ?

Whats the difference between 720p& 1080p
& 60 hz.or 120 hz.
Is there really a difference i can see ?

--
Dell Inspiron
Pentium dual-core 2.2 GHz
2 GB DDR2 SDRAM
Windows Vista Home Premium SP1

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Bottom line...go with the Sony deal.
Hi,
Sony has 4 different quality level. Look at the model no. prefix letters.

Between 720p and 1080p there is a noticeable difference, but probably
only if you are watching OTA TV in 1080i/p, have HD cable, are using the
TV as a monitor, or are watching Blu-Ray discs. I have a 720p
TV/monitor and a 1080p TV/monitor, and the 1080p one ended up on my desk
because it is just so superior to the other one as a computer monitor,
even though I like it better as a TV as well.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Buying new TV
 

In article ,
aemeijers wrote:

Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ha. Maybe I should fabricate a 2AWG cable for my ipod's earbuds.

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 06:48:41 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

"Ron" wrote

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim
to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound

Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.

Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker
wires versus lamp cord. No difference.

Did their study note that the quality of the connections can make a
difference? I use a thick gauge of lamp cord instead of fancy speaker
wire, because I am a cheap SOB, but all my vintage sound equipment uses
push-in or binding post connections. For sound and video applications
where the cable needs ends put on it, the connectors on the cheaper
pre-mades are usually crap. The gold-plated connectors are probably
meaningless unless you live on a beach, but a quality connector and a
decent gauge of wire probably helps. Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ends matter in that they make reliable connection. The performance of
difference between connectors, at least up into the very high RF frequencies,
isn't meaningful. Even TVs use crappy 'F' connectors without signal
degradation.


For speakers, zip (lamp) cord works extremely well. AWG16 or better should be
used for more than a couple of feet, but as you note, it's cheap. Termination
is a matter of convenience, not signal integrity.

"Oxygen-free" is a scam. "Monster" anything is a scam. Buying cables from
BustBuy is a scam. The only thing they make more money on than extended
warranties is cables. $75 for a $3 cable isn't bad work, if you can get it.

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 07:03:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On May 22, 12:03*am, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On May 20, 11:12 pm, "Ed *wrote:
*wrote

* * I told him I already had an HDMI cable. * He

proceeds to tell me that because this TV is "120hz", the cable I have
won't work and I need a new Monster cable for $100+.

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. * *That was their claim to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound
quality because the signal is analog. *Not saying that I believe their
oxygen free story, just that the cable characteristics do have an
affect on the analog signal. * In the case of HDMI, all you need to
determine at the ends of the cable are if the signal is high or low,
ie 1 or 0, so there is far less basis to believe a typical HDMI cable
needs to be anything special.

Hmm,
Really? digital bits should have no phase jitters to maintain signal
quality.

Not true. The digital signal can have phase shift as long as it's not
large compared to the bit interval.

They can have any phase shift you want, even larger than the bit interval
(satellite TV has a almost an astronomical phase shift ;-). Phase *jitter* is
another animal. Cables don't introduce phase jitter, though.

Buying new TV
 

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:19:34 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 06:48:41 -0400, wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim
to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound

Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.

Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker
wires versus lamp cord. No difference.

Did their study note that the quality of the connections can make a
difference? I use a thick gauge of lamp cord instead of fancy speaker
wire, because I am a cheap SOB, but all my vintage sound equipment uses
push-in or binding post connections. For sound and video applications
where the cable needs ends put on it, the connectors on the cheaper
pre-mades are usually crap. The gold-plated connectors are probably
meaningless unless you live on a beach, but a quality connector and a
decent gauge of wire probably helps. Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ends matter in that they make reliable connection. The performance of
difference between connectors, at least up into the very high RF frequencies,
isn't meaningful. Even TVs use crappy 'F' connectors without signal
degradation.


For speakers, zip (lamp) cord works extremely well. AWG16 or better should be
used for more than a couple of feet, but as you note, it's cheap. Termination
is a matter of convenience, not signal integrity.

"Oxygen-free" is a scam. "Monster" anything is a scam. Buying cables from
BustBuy is a scam. The only thing they make more money on than extended
warranties is cables. $75 for a $3 cable isn't bad work, if you can get it.

Hi,
In this world there are full of scammers and scammed.
They support each other.

Certainly. A small amount of education would put them out of business.

On RF at extreme low level signal like -100db
or below range cable quality and connections matter and skin effect
comes into play but on audio range?

-100db what? Decibels is a relative scale. Connectors don't matter until the
frequency gets very high indeed. Skin effect of cables (not connectors) can
matter, but not at audio frequencies in speaker cables.

Cable TV signal is way TOO strong in most cases.

Irrelevant and not true at all, by my experience.

Buying new TV
 

G. Morgan wrote:
aemeijers wrote:

aem sends...

^^^^^^^^^^

what does that mean? I've been meaning to ask you for years ;-)


Means I worked for the government too many years. Back before the real
world had email, the government had something in-between e-mail and
old-style telegrams. Had to have specific formats. Whoever wrote the
words, even if some drone actually walked downstairs to the
electro-mechanical terminal to send them, got to put their initials at
the bottom as author. (so they could be praised or flagellated later as
needed.)

I probably oughta to come up with a normal sig file, but after this many
years, I'm kind of used to it.

--
aem sends..

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 16:13:24 -0400, aemeijers wrote:

G. Morgan wrote:
aemeijers wrote:

aem sends...

^^^^^^^^^^

what does that mean? I've been meaning to ask you for years ;-)


Means I worked for the government too many years. Back before the real
world had email, the government had something in-between e-mail and
old-style telegrams. Had to have specific formats. Whoever wrote the
words, even if some drone actually walked downstairs to the
electro-mechanical terminal to send them, got to put their initials at
the bottom as author. (so they could be praised or flagellated later as
needed.)

I probably oughta to come up with a normal sig file, but after this many
years, I'm kind of used to it.

We'd all miss it too.

Buying new TV
 

Ron wrote:
On May 22, 7:53 am, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2010 21:56:54 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

wrote:

"Ron" wrote
Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim to
fame
with speaker wire in the past.
At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound
Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.
Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker wires
versus lamp cord. No difference.
That is a bit incomplete. Although the claims of premium cable
companies such as Monster are mostly fairy tails, lamp cord in many
applications would be too small a gauge to carry the signal properly,
especially as the length of the run increases. I would agree that any
generic wire of the same size would be fine. Monster tends to be in
larger gauges than lamp cord. Size (and good connections) is what
matters most. Advertising and marketing hype... not so much.

The bottom line is, a LOT of people buy monster cable because they
think it's gonna make their stereo sound better, when in fact people
can't tell the difference between coat hangers and MC.

But true audiophiles *think* they can hear a significant difference. So
they fall for all kinds of scams. Try crosposting this thread to an
audiophile newsgroup (no - please don't).

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 20:35:03 -0500, bud-- wrote:

Ron wrote:
On May 22, 7:53 am, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2010 21:56:54 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

wrote:

"Ron" wrote
Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim to
fame
with speaker wire in the past.
At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound
Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.
Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker wires
versus lamp cord. No difference.
That is a bit incomplete. Although the claims of premium cable
companies such as Monster are mostly fairy tails, lamp cord in many
applications would be too small a gauge to carry the signal properly,
especially as the length of the run increases. I would agree that any
generic wire of the same size would be fine. Monster tends to be in
larger gauges than lamp cord. Size (and good connections) is what
matters most. Advertising and marketing hype... not so much.

The bottom line is, a LOT of people buy monster cable because they
think it's gonna make their stereo sound better, when in fact people
can't tell the difference between coat hangers and MC.

But true audiophiles *think* they can hear a significant difference. So
they fall for all kinds of scams. Try crosposting this thread to an
audiophile newsgroup (no - please don't).

The correct term is "audiophool".

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:04:44 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:19:34 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 06:48:41 -0400, wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim
to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound

Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.

Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker
wires versus lamp cord. No difference.

Did their study note that the quality of the connections can make a
difference? I use a thick gauge of lamp cord instead of fancy speaker
wire, because I am a cheap SOB, but all my vintage sound equipment uses
push-in or binding post connections. For sound and video applications
where the cable needs ends put on it, the connectors on the cheaper
pre-mades are usually crap. The gold-plated connectors are probably
meaningless unless you live on a beach, but a quality connector and a
decent gauge of wire probably helps. Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ends matter in that they make reliable connection. The performance of
difference between connectors, at least up into the very high RF frequencies,
isn't meaningful. Even TVs use crappy 'F' connectors without signal
degradation.


For speakers, zip (lamp) cord works extremely well. AWG16 or better should be
used for more than a couple of feet, but as you note, it's cheap. Termination
is a matter of convenience, not signal integrity.

"Oxygen-free" is a scam. "Monster" anything is a scam. Buying cables from
BustBuy is a scam. The only thing they make more money on than extended
warranties is cables. $75 for a $3 cable isn't bad work, if you can get it.

Hi,
In this world there are full of scammers and scammed.
They support each other.

Certainly. A small amount of education would put them out of business.

On RF at extreme low level signal like -100db
or below range cable quality and connections matter and skin effect
comes into play but on audio range?

-100db what? Decibels is a relative scale. Connectors don't matter until the
frequency gets very high indeed. Skin effect of cables (not connectors) can
matter, but not at audio frequencies in speaker cables.

Cable TV signal is way TOO strong in most cases.

Irrelevant and not true at all, by my experience.

Cable techs install more attenuators to solve picture quality issues
than amps. Overdriving the tuner IS a real issue

Buying new TV
 

On Mon, 24 May 2010 19:46:30 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:04:44 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:19:34 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 06:48:41 -0400, wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim
to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound

Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.

Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker
wires versus lamp cord. No difference.

Did their study note that the quality of the connections can make a
difference? I use a thick gauge of lamp cord instead of fancy speaker
wire, because I am a cheap SOB, but all my vintage sound equipment uses
push-in or binding post connections. For sound and video applications
where the cable needs ends put on it, the connectors on the cheaper
pre-mades are usually crap. The gold-plated connectors are probably
meaningless unless you live on a beach, but a quality connector and a
decent gauge of wire probably helps. Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ends matter in that they make reliable connection. The performance of
difference between connectors, at least up into the very high RF frequencies,
isn't meaningful. Even TVs use crappy 'F' connectors without signal
degradation.


For speakers, zip (lamp) cord works extremely well. AWG16 or better should be
used for more than a couple of feet, but as you note, it's cheap. Termination
is a matter of convenience, not signal integrity.

"Oxygen-free" is a scam. "Monster" anything is a scam. Buying cables from
BustBuy is a scam. The only thing they make more money on than extended
warranties is cables. $75 for a $3 cable isn't bad work, if you can get it.

Hi,
In this world there are full of scammers and scammed.
They support each other.

Certainly. A small amount of education would put them out of business.

On RF at extreme low level signal like -100db
or below range cable quality and connections matter and skin effect
comes into play but on audio range?

-100db what? Decibels is a relative scale. Connectors don't matter until the
frequency gets very high indeed. Skin effect of cables (not connectors) can
matter, but not at audio frequencies in speaker cables.

Cable TV signal is way TOO strong in most cases.

Irrelevant and not true at all, by my experience.

Cable techs install more attenuators to solve picture quality issues
than amps. Overdriving the tuner IS a real issue

Well, duh! That's the way the system is designed (pads are a *lot* cheaper
than amplifiers and once the signal is in the mud no amplifier can help it).

Once the system is installed the signal continually degrades as components
age.

Buying new TV
 

On Mon, 24 May 2010 19:55:00 -0500, "
wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 19:46:30 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:04:44 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:19:34 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 06:48:41 -0400, wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim
to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound

Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.

Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker
wires versus lamp cord. No difference.

Did their study note that the quality of the connections can make a
difference? I use a thick gauge of lamp cord instead of fancy speaker
wire, because I am a cheap SOB, but all my vintage sound equipment uses
push-in or binding post connections. For sound and video applications
where the cable needs ends put on it, the connectors on the cheaper
pre-mades are usually crap. The gold-plated connectors are probably
meaningless unless you live on a beach, but a quality connector and a
decent gauge of wire probably helps. Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ends matter in that they make reliable connection. The performance of
difference between connectors, at least up into the very high RF frequencies,
isn't meaningful. Even TVs use crappy 'F' connectors without signal
degradation.


For speakers, zip (lamp) cord works extremely well. AWG16 or better should be
used for more than a couple of feet, but as you note, it's cheap. Termination
is a matter of convenience, not signal integrity.

"Oxygen-free" is a scam. "Monster" anything is a scam. Buying cables from
BustBuy is a scam. The only thing they make more money on than extended
warranties is cables. $75 for a $3 cable isn't bad work, if you can get it.

Hi,
In this world there are full of scammers and scammed.
They support each other.

Certainly. A small amount of education would put them out of business.

On RF at extreme low level signal like -100db
or below range cable quality and connections matter and skin effect
comes into play but on audio range?

-100db what? Decibels is a relative scale. Connectors don't matter until the
frequency gets very high indeed. Skin effect of cables (not connectors) can
matter, but not at audio frequencies in speaker cables.

Cable TV signal is way TOO strong in most cases.

Irrelevant and not true at all, by my experience.

Cable techs install more attenuators to solve picture quality issues
than amps. Overdriving the tuner IS a real issue

Well, duh! That's the way the system is designed (pads are a *lot* cheaper
than amplifiers and once the signal is in the mud no amplifier can help it).

Once the system is installed the signal continually degrades as components
age.

Well, was the last guy not correct saying the signal was too strong in
most cases, and the guy saying irrellevent and not true wrong?

Buying new TV
 

On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:06:36 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 19:55:00 -0500, "
wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 19:46:30 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 15:04:44 -0500, "
wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2010 13:19:34 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2010 06:48:41 -0400, wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

wrote

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. That was their claim
to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

At least in the case of speaker wire there was some remote basis to
argue that the characteristics of the cable could affect the sound

Bull. Google coat hangers vs monster cables.

Some years back, Stereo Review magazine blind tested expensive speaker
wires versus lamp cord. No difference.

Did their study note that the quality of the connections can make a
difference? I use a thick gauge of lamp cord instead of fancy speaker
wire, because I am a cheap SOB, but all my vintage sound equipment uses
push-in or binding post connections. For sound and video applications
where the cable needs ends put on it, the connectors on the cheaper
pre-mades are usually crap. The gold-plated connectors are probably
meaningless unless you live on a beach, but a quality connector and a
decent gauge of wire probably helps. Of course, I am not talking about
modern miniature stereos, DVD players, and tiny speakers. The cables
that come with those look like fishing line to me.

Ends matter in that they make reliable connection. The performance of
difference between connectors, at least up into the very high RF frequencies,
isn't meaningful. Even TVs use crappy 'F' connectors without signal
degradation.


For speakers, zip (lamp) cord works extremely well. AWG16 or better should be
used for more than a couple of feet, but as you note, it's cheap. Termination
is a matter of convenience, not signal integrity.

"Oxygen-free" is a scam. "Monster" anything is a scam. Buying cables from
BustBuy is a scam. The only thing they make more money on than extended
warranties is cables. $75 for a $3 cable isn't bad work, if you can get it.

Hi,
In this world there are full of scammers and scammed.
They support each other.

Certainly. A small amount of education would put them out of business.

On RF at extreme low level signal like -100db
or below range cable quality and connections matter and skin effect
comes into play but on audio range?

-100db what? Decibels is a relative scale. Connectors don't matter until the
frequency gets very high indeed. Skin effect of cables (not connectors) can
matter, but not at audio frequencies in speaker cables.

Cable TV signal is way TOO strong in most cases.

Irrelevant and not true at all, by my experience.

Cable techs install more attenuators to solve picture quality issues
than amps. Overdriving the tuner IS a real issue

Well, duh! That's the way the system is designed (pads are a *lot* cheaper
than amplifiers and once the signal is in the mud no amplifier can help it).

Once the system is installed the signal continually degrades as components
age.

Well, was the last guy not correct saying the signal was too strong in
most cases,

Yes, he is not correct. Most installations are decaying. Signals don't get
stronger.

and the guy saying irrellevent and not true wrong?

Buying new TV
 

On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:32:19 -0500, "
wrote:

You say:


"Well, duh! That's the way the system is designed (pads are a *lot*
cheaper than amplifiers and once the signal is in the mud no amplifier
can help it",

and yet you say we are wrong saying too strong a signal is more
common than too weak

Methinks you just want to be argumentative

Buying new TV
 

On Tue, 25 May 2010 21:35:45 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:32:19 -0500, "
wrote:

You say:


"Well, duh! That's the way the system is designed (pads are a *lot*
cheaper than amplifiers and once the signal is in the mud no amplifier
can help it",

and yet you say we are wrong saying too strong a signal is more
common than too weak

I'll try to go more slowly for you this time...

Theoretically the system once worked. As the system ages the signal level
*drops* as cables and whatnot become lossy.

Methinks you just want to be argumentative

Meknows you can't read, or think.

Buying new TV
 

On May 24, 7:46*pm, wrote:


Cable techs install more attenuators to solve picture quality issues
than amps. Overdriving the tuner IS a real issue

I've never had a problem with a cable signal being too strong. Just
the opposite. In the last 3 homes that I've lived in the signal was
too weak once it was split inside the home to multiple TVs (3 or
more).

Amps installed every time.

Buying new TV
 

On Tue, 25 May 2010 23:17:21 -0500, "
wrote:

On Tue, 25 May 2010 21:35:45 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 22:32:19 -0500, "
wrote:

You say:


"Well, duh! That's the way the system is designed (pads are a *lot*
cheaper than amplifiers and once the signal is in the mud no amplifier
can help it",

and yet you say we are wrong saying too strong a signal is more
common than too weak

I'll try to go more slowly for you this time...

Theoretically the system once worked. As the system ages the signal level
*drops* as cables and whatnot become lossy.

Methinks you just want to be argumentative

Meknows you can't read, or think.

No, if the cable company repairs the lines outside or replaces part of
their "plant" the signal can become too strong. The itty bit of cable
inside the average residence is insignificant in the grand scheme of
things. Then too, if you go to digital cable they replace ALL the
cable inside with 100% sheilded cable too.
I've personally had it happen several times. Have the attenuators to
prove it.
First time was with the standard cable in my own home. Second and
third times at office. Last time with the new sheilded cable at home.

Buying new TV
 

On Sat, 22 May 2010 07:54:55 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 20:19:15 -0700 (PDT), terry
wrote:

On May 21, 7:55*am, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2010 23:12:55 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

wrote:

wrote

* I told him I already had an HDMI cable. * He
proceeds to tell me that because this TV is "120hz", the cable I have
won't work and I need a new Monster cable for $100+.

Yes, but Monster uses oxygen free copper. * *That was their claim to fame
with speaker wire in the past.

Monster also sells audio cables with SIGNAL DIRECTION arrows printed
on them to make sure you install them in the right direction!

Yes; wouldn't want to get 'highs' confused with 'lows'! {:-)

I'm almost surprised they don't specify left or right channel.

Or special cables for different kinds of audio material (opera,
etc...).