In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out. To
my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb, plugged in
the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb both
continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it would
stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10 seconds,
tried again with the same result. I then added the capacitor from the
FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within the FS-2).
Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I buy
a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and the
behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily from the
voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any during
your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That may
make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily on
one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the electrode on
the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter may make a
difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said the
plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral reverse
at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent fixtures.

--
- Don Klipstein )

In article , Tony wrote:
Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 3:18 PM, Tony wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

Yes, an FS-2 should work fine.
Follow up:

It didn't work. I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my
"junk box" and wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow
bulb I clipped out. To my surprise and disappointment, when I replaced
the CFL bulb, plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and
the glow bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds
to see if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture,
waited about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added
the capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I
buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

I don't recall ever seeing a starter for 14 to 20 watt bulbs besides the
FS-2. I do recall though seeing many FS-2's that didn't list 18 watts.
I have no idea why they are like that, but the -2 is the proper
starter. Are you really sure the starter from the "junk box" isn't
junk? I'd also try the other bulb again with that starter.

As far as a different wattage starter, sometimes when a bulb is going
bad, but still works sometimes, the wrong type starter will sometimes
work for a while. It's not a fix, it's a patch, and not even a good one.

Lets back up. How are you with electrical circuits... meaning would you
remove the starter again and short the two ends from the lamp together
to see if it lights? (plugged in and turned on) Shorting it only for a
second or less, the ends of the bulb glow, opening the short and the
bulb should fully light and stay lit.

One thing to keep in mind: Bad / innefective starters are hard on
bulbs, and bad bulbs are hard on starters.

- Don Klipstein )

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:35:58 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 4/24/2010 11:12 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Peter wrote:
I've got a "no-name" clamp-on fluorescent lamp that no longer starts
when the rocker switch is snapped from the off to the on position.
The
lamp has a polarized plug with an in-line black "brick" 7 1/2" x 2
1/2" x 1 3/8" that has the code "G0138" stamped above the code
"GG10051F" on the bottom but no other markings. The 2 conductor cord
from the brick goes to the base of the lamp where the clamp is
located. The lamp uses a single 18W 4 pin double tube bulb with code
G24q-2.

I'm sure that the bulb is good because I have a second, identical
lamp
(that works normally) and when I swap the bulbs, the "good" lamp
works
perfectly with the bulb from the lamp that is not working. I also
have
a brand new spare bulb that I've tried in the non-functional fixture
and it too fails to light in the bad fixture.

The problem started spontaneously with no earlier indication of
problems. Normally, when the lamp is turned on, there are a few quick
white flashes in the bulb and the bulb lights and glows steadily. The
behavior I observe is that when I snap the rocker switch to on, the
bulb either has one quick white flash but then I only see the heaters
glowing in each of the two tubes, or there is no white flash at all,
and all I see is the glow of the heater filaments. I've tried
plugging
the lamp into another outlet in case the problem was related to
grounding (I've read that these quick start bulbs need their circuits
and fixtures to be grounded to work properly) but it did not help.
The
"brick" has always been entirely quiet and never got particularly
warm, and that has not changed.

Any suggestions (besides ditching the lamp)?
Someone mentioned this already and got me thinking. The older
fixtures like yours have a replaceable starter that is easily
accessed. For cost savings, your fixture may have a starter
hard wired into the fixture itself. Turn on one of the good
fixtures and listen closely the part of the fixture on either
end of the lamp, if you hear a couple of clicks that may have
a sound like "tink", it could be a starter. You could easily
disassemble the fixture and take the guts from a standard
starter and use the parts to replace what's in there. There
is also the possibility that instead of a conventional starter,
there could be a thermistor like what is in an old TV degaussing
circuit. You won't know unless you take it apart.

TDD
The fixture always did start with a "tink" "tink" "tink" each one
corresponding to a flash of the bulb. I don't hear that noise at all
now.

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out. To
my surprise and disappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb, plugged in
the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb both
continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it would
stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10 seconds,
tried again with the same result. I then added the capacitor from the
FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within the FS-2).
Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I
buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

Try another starter. What is the actual wattage of the lamp? You can
use alligator clip jumpers to try another starter or to short across
the connection for a second to heat the filaments in the lamp and
see if it will start. You can use jumpers to try all sorts of parts
in the circuit. The most value that you get from this is the learning
experience. I've had people admonish me for working on something that's
not worth the trouble because anyone could buy a new one for little
money. I've even gone to thrift stores and bought junk so I could take
it apart to learn how it works, I consider it entertainment.

TDD

As a kid I scavenged anything I could find that didn't work and took
it apart to find out how it was supposed to work and why it didn't -
and fixed it if I could.

Not a whole lot different as retirement looms

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:20:55 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In , zzz wrote,
edited by me for space:

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 20:10:54 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base
of this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink".
What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

Most starters were neon.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question337.htm

"The most common fluorescent starter is called a "glow tube starter"
(or just starter) and contains a small gas (neon, etc.) filled tube
and an optional radio frequency interference (RFI) suppression capacitor
in a cylindrical aluminum can with a 2 pin base."

I have looked at the color of glow produced by many of those. My
experience as of the late 1970's was that few produced a neon-like color,
and that those appeared to me less-modern-than-usual as of then. I have
also seen the glow from the starters built into PL-13 CFLs.

My experience is that most starters produce a lavendar glow of a color
close to usual for argon, only a little more whitish.


I think you are describing a mercury vapour glow starter. That would
also explain the "silvering" on the glass.
===================

As much as you appear to me to hate fluorescent lamps, I suspect you
might be interested in a characteristic that some starters have. I
thought that maybe you would have mentioned this by now. Some fluorescent
lamp starters are cranky about starting in complete darkness! Some of
those starters are cranky about starting without assistance from the
photoelectric effect.

One solution was to add Kr-85 to the gas (or gas mixture) in the
starter bulb. But radioactivity got to be politically incorrect. I also
see that many aluminum can style starters have a hole in the center of the
top of the aluminum can. I wonder if that is to allow one to see whether
the starter glows, or to let light into the starter.

wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:35:58 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 4/24/2010 11:12 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Peter wrote:
I've got a "no-name" clamp-on fluorescent lamp that no longer starts
when the rocker switch is snapped from the off to the on position.
The
lamp has a polarized plug with an in-line black "brick" 7 1/2" x 2
1/2" x 1 3/8" that has the code "G0138" stamped above the code
"GG10051F" on the bottom but no other markings. The 2 conductor cord
from the brick goes to the base of the lamp where the clamp is
located. The lamp uses a single 18W 4 pin double tube bulb with code
G24q-2.

I'm sure that the bulb is good because I have a second, identical
lamp
(that works normally) and when I swap the bulbs, the "good" lamp
works
perfectly with the bulb from the lamp that is not working. I also
have
a brand new spare bulb that I've tried in the non-functional fixture
and it too fails to light in the bad fixture.

The problem started spontaneously with no earlier indication of
problems. Normally, when the lamp is turned on, there are a few quick
white flashes in the bulb and the bulb lights and glows steadily. The
behavior I observe is that when I snap the rocker switch to on, the
bulb either has one quick white flash but then I only see the heaters
glowing in each of the two tubes, or there is no white flash at all,
and all I see is the glow of the heater filaments. I've tried
plugging
the lamp into another outlet in case the problem was related to
grounding (I've read that these quick start bulbs need their circuits
and fixtures to be grounded to work properly) but it did not help.
The
"brick" has always been entirely quiet and never got particularly
warm, and that has not changed.

Any suggestions (besides ditching the lamp)?
Someone mentioned this already and got me thinking. The older
fixtures like yours have a replaceable starter that is easily
accessed. For cost savings, your fixture may have a starter
hard wired into the fixture itself. Turn on one of the good
fixtures and listen closely the part of the fixture on either
end of the lamp, if you hear a couple of clicks that may have
a sound like "tink", it could be a starter. You could easily
disassemble the fixture and take the guts from a standard
starter and use the parts to replace what's in there. There
is also the possibility that instead of a conventional starter,
there could be a thermistor like what is in an old TV degaussing
circuit. You won't know unless you take it apart.

TDD
The fixture always did start with a "tink" "tink" "tink" each one
corresponding to a flash of the bulb. I don't hear that noise at all
now.

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out. To
my surprise and disappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb, plugged in
the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb both
continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it would
stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10 seconds,
tried again with the same result. I then added the capacitor from the
FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within the FS-2).
Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I
buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?
Try another starter. What is the actual wattage of the lamp? You can
use alligator clip jumpers to try another starter or to short across
the connection for a second to heat the filaments in the lamp and
see if it will start. You can use jumpers to try all sorts of parts
in the circuit. The most value that you get from this is the learning
experience. I've had people admonish me for working on something that's
not worth the trouble because anyone could buy a new one for little
money. I've even gone to thrift stores and bought junk so I could take
it apart to learn how it works, I consider it entertainment.

TDD

As a kid I scavenged anything I could find that didn't work and took
it apart to find out how it was supposed to work and why it didn't -
and fixed it if I could.

Not a whole lot different as retirement looms


Second childhood? It's the freaks like us who will survive when
the world goes to hell. I have trouble identifying with someone
who's only skill is shuffling papers and doesn't know a hammer
from a screwdriver. I get hold of things all the time that were
discarded because of some simple, easily repaired problem. I've
rescued $100.00 computer motherboards that had a blown keyboard
fuse or a kitchen appliance that popped a thermal protector. It
never ceases to amaze me about the perfectly good items I find
in the trash. My last microwave was left outside a dumpster and
it had the manual with it, there was absolutely nothing wrong
with the thing. I think someone was moving and tossed a fairly
new appliance.

TDD

On 4/26/2010 5:44 PM, Don Klipstein wrote:
In , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out. To
my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb, plugged in
the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb both
continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it would
stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10 seconds,
tried again with the same result. I then added the capacitor from the
FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within the FS-2).
Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I buy
a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and the
behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily from the
voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any during
your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That may
make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily on
one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the electrode on
the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter may make a
difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said the
plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral reverse
at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent fixtures.

Don,
As far as grounding is concerned, I did not need to remove any special
grounding, and replaced everything exactly as it had been, including the foil
lined rotating shade, only substituting the cannibalized innards of the FS-2
starter for the glow bulb that I removed. (The original glow bulb did not glow
when I applied power. The one from the FS-2 glows lavender). This has become a
long thread with multiple side arms. You probably missed some of my previous
posts were I stated that the fixture's power plug is 2 prong polarized, and I've
checked the wall receptacle with a 3 neon lamp circuit tester designed to detect
open grounds, open neutrals, reversed connections, etc. (it checks "correct
wiring".

One clue that I failed to mention to date is that the original glow bulb was
substantially larger (both longer and greater diameter) than the one from the
FS-2. Does that help you make a recommendation to me of which model starter I
should purchase and cannibalize to try in place of the one from the FS-2?

On 4/26/2010 9:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and
wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped
out. To my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow
bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see
if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited
about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added the
capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to
this circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14,
15, and 20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and
the behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily
from the voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any
during your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That
may make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily
on one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the
electrode on the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter
may make a difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when
used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said
the plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral
reverse at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent
fixtures.


He could have two problems, a bad starter and a bad ballast. He has
eliminated the bulb since it worked in an identical light fixture.
Perhaps borrowing the ballast from a known good fixture? It may be
a lot work but I would do it out of curiosity.

TDD
Yeah, it would be interesting, but I don't want to investing that much effort.
Besides, just my luck I'd break off one of the wires where it enters the sealed
ballast unit and end up having to trash both fixtures!

I'm already coming close to my threshold for just giving up. The problem is
that these fixtures tend to run $60 - $120 and I'm only using it as a
supplemental local lighting source adjacent to my computer table. I'm thinking
of just getting a $10 USB LED lamp even though with all the clutter next to the
monitor, there's not a lot of room for something else on the desk top (CRT
monitor, so a clip-on lamp to the monitor frame is not an option).

Peter wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the
base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and
wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped
out. To my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow
bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see
if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited
about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added the
capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to
this circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14,
15, and 20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and
the behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily
from the voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any
during your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That
may make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily
on one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the
electrode on the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter
may make a difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when
used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said
the plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral
reverse at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent
fixtures.


He could have two problems, a bad starter and a bad ballast. He has
eliminated the bulb since it worked in an identical light fixture.
Perhaps borrowing the ballast from a known good fixture? It may be
a lot work but I would do it out of curiosity.

TDD
Yeah, it would be interesting, but I don't want to investing that much
effort. Besides, just my luck I'd break off one of the wires where it
enters the sealed ballast unit and end up having to trash both fixtures!

I'm already coming close to my threshold for just giving up. The
problem is that these fixtures tend to run $60 - $120 and I'm only using
it as a supplemental local lighting source adjacent to my computer
table. I'm thinking of just getting a $10 USB LED lamp even though
with all the clutter next to the monitor, there's not a lot of room for
something else on the desk top (CRT monitor, so a clip-on lamp to the
monitor frame is not an option).

A starter momentarily shorts across its leads. Hard to remember, I think
someone suggested momentarily shorting the leads to see if the lamps
light. That should give you a definitive answer of whether the ballast
is OK. If that works you could replace the starter with a push button.
In some old fixtures that is how the lamps were started - you push and
hold the "on" button for a couple seconds and then release it.

If you post the same question to multiple groups use crossposting.

--
bud--

On 4/28/2010 11:04 AM, bud-- wrote:
Peter wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on
the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the
base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps
this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no
sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little
searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and
wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped
out. To my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow
bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see
if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited
about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added the
capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to
this circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14,
15, and 20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and
the behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily
from the voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any
during your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That
may make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily
on one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the
electrode on the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter
may make a difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when
used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said
the plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral
reverse at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent
fixtures.


He could have two problems, a bad starter and a bad ballast. He has
eliminated the bulb since it worked in an identical light fixture.
Perhaps borrowing the ballast from a known good fixture? It may be
a lot work but I would do it out of curiosity.

TDD
Yeah, it would be interesting, but I don't want to investing that much
effort. Besides, just my luck I'd break off one of the wires where it
enters the sealed ballast unit and end up having to trash both fixtures!

I'm already coming close to my threshold for just giving up. The
problem is that these fixtures tend to run $60 - $120 and I'm only
using it as a supplemental local lighting source adjacent to my
computer table. I'm thinking of just getting a $10 USB LED lamp even
though with all the clutter next to the monitor, there's not a lot of
room for something else on the desk top (CRT monitor, so a clip-on
lamp to the monitor frame is not an option).

A starter momentarily shorts across its leads. Hard to remember, I think
someone suggested momentarily shorting the leads to see if the lamps
light. That should give you a definitive answer of whether the ballast
is OK. If that works you could replace the starter with a push button.
In some old fixtures that is how the lamps were started - you push and
hold the "on" button for a couple seconds and then release it.

If you post the same question to multiple groups use crossposting.

I'll make sure to momentarily short across where I have the starter connected
(after I remove it) to make sure the ballast is good, before potentially wasting
time/money for a glowbulb from a starter with a higher rating than the FS-2 I
tried. However, as you say, it may be easier to drill a hole in the shell of
the fixture near the base of the bulb socket and install a SPST normally open
push button switch. If so, what voltage and/or current rating should I look for
to avoid ruining the switch contacts with normal use?

P.S. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird as my e-mail/usenet client. Thunderbird does
not allow cross posting.

Peter wrote:
On 4/28/2010 11:04 AM, bud-- wrote:
Peter wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter
wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb
socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks
almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on
the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the
base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps
this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no
sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little
searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and
wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped
out. To my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow
bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see
if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited
about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added the
capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to
this circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14,
15, and 20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and
the behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily
from the voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about
starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any
during your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That
may make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily
on one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the
electrode on the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter
may make a difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when
used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said
the plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral
reverse at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent
fixtures.


He could have two problems, a bad starter and a bad ballast. He has
eliminated the bulb since it worked in an identical light fixture.
Perhaps borrowing the ballast from a known good fixture? It may be
a lot work but I would do it out of curiosity.

TDD
Yeah, it would be interesting, but I don't want to investing that much
effort. Besides, just my luck I'd break off one of the wires where it
enters the sealed ballast unit and end up having to trash both fixtures!

I'm already coming close to my threshold for just giving up. The
problem is that these fixtures tend to run $60 - $120 and I'm only
using it as a supplemental local lighting source adjacent to my
computer table. I'm thinking of just getting a $10 USB LED lamp even
though with all the clutter next to the monitor, there's not a lot of
room for something else on the desk top (CRT monitor, so a clip-on
lamp to the monitor frame is not an option).

A starter momentarily shorts across its leads. Hard to remember, I think
someone suggested momentarily shorting the leads to see if the lamps
light. That should give you a definitive answer of whether the ballast
is OK. If that works you could replace the starter with a push button.
In some old fixtures that is how the lamps were started - you push and
hold the "on" button for a couple seconds and then release it.

If you post the same question to multiple groups use crossposting.

I'll make sure to momentarily short across where I have the starter
connected (after I remove it) to make sure the ballast is good, before
potentially wasting time/money for a glowbulb from a starter with a
higher rating than the FS-2 I tried. However, as you say, it may be
easier to drill a hole in the shell of the fixture near the base of the
bulb socket and install a SPST normally open push button switch. If so,
what voltage and/or current rating should I look for to avoid ruining
the switch contacts with normal use?

P.S. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird as my e-mail/usenet client.
Thunderbird does not allow cross posting.

I thought my T-bird all ways allows cross posting, I'll test it here.

On Apr 25, 2:10�am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 4/24/2010 11:12 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Peter wrote:
I've got a "no-name" clamp-on fluorescent lamp that no longer starts
when the rocker switch is snapped from the off to the on position. The
lamp has a polarized plug with an in-line black "brick" 7 1/2" x 2
1/2" x 1 3/8" that has the code "G0138" stamped above the code
"GG10051F" on the bottom but no other markings. The 2 conductor cord
from the brick goes to the base of the lamp where the clamp is
located. The lamp uses a single 18W 4 pin double tube bulb with code
G24q-2.

I'm sure that the bulb is good because I have a second, identical lamp
(that works normally) and when I swap the bulbs, the "good" lamp works
perfectly with the bulb from the lamp that is not working. I also have
a brand new spare bulb that I've tried in the non-functional fixture
and it too fails to light in the bad fixture.

The problem started spontaneously with no earlier indication of
problems. Normally, when the lamp is turned on, there are a few quick
white flashes in the bulb and the bulb lights and glows steadily. The
behavior I observe is that when I snap the rocker switch to on, the
bulb either has one quick white flash but then I only see the heaters
glowing in each of the two tubes, or there is no white flash at all,
and all I see is the glow of the heater filaments. I've tried plugging
the lamp into another outlet in case the problem was related to
grounding (I've read that these quick start bulbs need their circuits
and fixtures to be grounded to work properly) but it did not help. The
"brick" has always been entirely quiet and never got particularly
warm, and that has not changed.

Any suggestions (besides ditching the lamp)?
Someone mentioned this already and got me thinking. The older
fixtures like yours have a replaceable starter that is easily
accessed. For cost savings, your fixture may have a starter
hard wired into the fixture itself. Turn on one of the good
fixtures and listen closely the part of the fixture on either
end of the lamp, if you hear a couple of clicks that may have
a sound like "tink", it could be a starter. You could easily
disassemble the fixture and take the guts from a standard
starter and use the parts to replace what's in there. There
is also the possibility that instead of a conventional starter,
there could be a thermistor like what is in an old TV degaussing
circuit. You won't know unless you take it apart.

TDD
The fixture always did start with a "tink" "tink" "tink" each one corresponding
to a flash of the bulb. �I don't hear that noise at all now.

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket, pull it out
about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost like a neon bulb with an
opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the inside of the glass bulb. �There are
2 wires coming out of the base of this little bulb, 1 connected to the black,
and the other to the white power wires that enter the base of the socket.
Perhaps this is the hard-wired starter? �There are no markings on it at all. �I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while observing the
little glass bulb. �Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks, no "tink" "tink" "tink".
�What do I replace it with?
�Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The bimetal strip starters have four pins.Two for the resistor & two
for the bi-metal strip/switch contacts. They haven't been made for
years.

On Apr 25, 4:59�pm, Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:



wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 4/24/2010 11:12 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Peter wrote:
I've got a "no-name" clamp-on fluorescent lamp that no longer starts
when the rocker switch is snapped from the off to the on position. The
lamp has a polarized plug with an in-line black "brick" 7 1/2" x 2
1/2" x 1 3/8" that has the code "G0138" stamped above the code
"GG10051F" on the bottom but no other markings. The 2 conductor cord
from the brick goes to the base of the lamp where the clamp is
located. The lamp uses a single 18W 4 pin double tube bulb with code
G24q-2.

I'm sure that the bulb is good because I have a second, identical lamp
(that works normally) and when I swap the bulbs, the "good" lamp works
perfectly with the bulb from the lamp that is not working. I also have
a brand new spare bulb that I've tried in the non-functional fixture
and it too fails to light in the bad fixture.

The problem started spontaneously with no earlier indication of
problems. Normally, when the lamp is turned on, there are a few quick
white flashes in the bulb and the bulb lights and glows steadily. The
behavior I observe is that when I snap the rocker switch to on, the
bulb either has one quick white flash but then I only see the heaters
glowing in each of the two tubes, or there is no white flash at all,
and all I see is the glow of the heater filaments. I've tried plugging
the lamp into another outlet in case the problem was related to
grounding (I've read that these quick start bulbs need their circuits
and fixtures to be grounded to work properly) but it did not help. The
"brick" has always been entirely quiet and never got particularly
warm, and that has not changed.

Any suggestions (besides ditching the lamp)?
Someone mentioned this already and got me thinking. The older
fixtures like yours have a replaceable starter that is easily
accessed. For cost savings, your fixture may have a starter
hard wired into the fixture itself. Turn on one of the good
fixtures and listen closely the part of the fixture on either
end of the lamp, if you hear a couple of clicks that may have
a sound like "tink", it could be a starter. You could easily
disassemble the fixture and take the guts from a standard
starter and use the parts to replace what's in there. There
is also the possibility that instead of a conventional starter,
there could be a thermistor like what is in an old TV degaussing
circuit. You won't know unless you take it apart.

TDD
The fixture always did start with a "tink" "tink" "tink" each one
corresponding to a flash of the bulb. I don't hear that noise at all
now.

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD

Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired in it's
glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out. �To my surprise and
disappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb, plugged in the fixture and turned
it on, the fixture and the glow bulb both continuously flickered. �I waited
about 5-10 seconds to see if it would stabilze; it didn't. �I turned off the
fixture, waited about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. �I then
added the capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). �Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this circuit
(although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and 20W bulbs), or
that something else is wrong in the circuit? �Should I buy a starter with a
higher rating and try again with that?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The capacitor is for power factor correction. Doesn't matter wheather
it's there or not.

On Apr 25, 7:25�pm, Tony wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 10:51:46 -0400, Tony wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 20:10:54 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:

On 4/24/2010 11:12 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Peter wrote:
I've got a "no-name" clamp-on fluorescent lamp that no longer starts
when the rocker switch is snapped from the off to the on position. The
lamp has a polarized plug with an in-line black "brick" 7 1/2" x 2
1/2" x 1 3/8" that has the code "G0138" stamped above the code
"GG10051F" on the bottom but no other markings. The 2 conductor cord
from the brick goes to the base of the lamp where the clamp is
located. The lamp uses a single 18W 4 pin double tube bulb with code
G24q-2.

I'm sure that the bulb is good because I have a second, identical lamp
(that works normally) and when I swap the bulbs, the "good" lamp works
perfectly with the bulb from the lamp that is not working. I also have
a brand new spare bulb that I've tried in the non-functional fixture
and it too fails to light in the bad fixture.

The problem started spontaneously with no earlier indication of
problems. Normally, when the lamp is turned on, there are a few quick
white flashes in the bulb and the bulb lights and glows steadily.. The
behavior I observe is that when I snap the rocker switch to on, the
bulb either has one quick white flash but then I only see the heaters
glowing in each of the two tubes, or there is no white flash at all,
and all I see is the glow of the heater filaments. I've tried plugging
the lamp into another outlet in case the problem was related to
grounding (I've read that these quick start bulbs need their circuits
and fixtures to be grounded to work properly) but it did not help. The
"brick" has always been entirely quiet and never got particularly
warm, and that has not changed.

Any suggestions (besides ditching the lamp)?
Someone mentioned this already and got me thinking. The older
fixtures like yours have a replaceable starter that is easily
accessed. For cost savings, your fixture may have a starter
hard wired into the fixture itself. Turn on one of the good
fixtures and listen closely the part of the fixture on either
end of the lamp, if you hear a couple of clicks that may have
a sound like "tink", it could be a starter. You could easily
disassemble the fixture and take the guts from a standard
starter and use the parts to replace what's in there. There
is also the possibility that instead of a conventional starter,
there could be a thermistor like what is in an old TV degaussing
circuit. You won't know unless you take it apart.

TDD
The fixture always did start with a "tink" "tink" "tink" each one corresponding
to a flash of the bulb. �I don't hear that noise at all now.

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket, pull it out
about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost like a neon bulb with an
opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the inside of the glass bulb. �There are
2 wires coming out of the base of this little bulb, 1 connected to the black,
and the other to the white power wires that enter the base of the socket.
Perhaps this is the hard-wired starter? �There are no markings on it at all. �I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while observing the
little glass bulb. �Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks, no "tink" "tink" "tink".
�What do I replace it with?
�Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.
Most starters were neon.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question337.htm

� "The most common fluorescent starter is called a "glow tube starter"
� (or just starter) and contains a small gas (neon, etc.) filled tube
� and an optional radio frequency interference (RFI) suppression capacitor
� in a cylindrical aluminum can with a 2 pin base."
You should read a little further on the link you posted. �Yes the glow
tube can be neon, but it is not just a neon lamp. � �Try reading this part:

"The glow tube incorporates a switch which is normally open." �(whoa,
say that again!) �*The glow tube incorporates a switch which is normally
open.* �(one more time?) �_The glow tube incorporates a switch which is
normally open._

OMG, there is even more on your link!

"When power is applied, a glow discharge takes place which heats a
bimetal contact. A second or so later, the contacts close and provide
current to the fluorescent filaments. Since the glow is extinguished,
there is no longer any heating of the bimetal and the contacts open.

The glow tube incorporates a switch which is normally open. When power
is applied, a glow discharge takes place which heats a bimetal contact..
A second or so later, the contacts close and provide current to the
fluorescent filaments. Since the glow is extinguished, there is no
longer any heating of the bimetal and the contacts open.

Now be a man and admit you were wrong.

Oh, you mean they don't have a neon tube in them? �Funny, it said they did.

Yes a sometimes neon, but always with a bimetal contact inside. �That
makes it a starter. �Are you saying that NE2 neon bulbs have bimetal
contacts inside them?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Exactly so. The neon discharge causes them to bend.

Peter wrote:
On 4/28/2010 11:04 AM, bud-- wrote:
Peter wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter
wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb
socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks
almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on
the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the
base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps
this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no
sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little
searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and
wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped
out. To my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow
bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see
if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited
about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added the
capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to
this circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14,
15, and 20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and
the behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily
from the voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about
starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any
during your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That
may make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily
on one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the
electrode on the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter
may make a difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when
used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said
the plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral
reverse at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent
fixtures.


He could have two problems, a bad starter and a bad ballast. He has
eliminated the bulb since it worked in an identical light fixture.
Perhaps borrowing the ballast from a known good fixture? It may be
a lot work but I would do it out of curiosity.

TDD
Yeah, it would be interesting, but I don't want to investing that much
effort. Besides, just my luck I'd break off one of the wires where it
enters the sealed ballast unit and end up having to trash both fixtures!

I'm already coming close to my threshold for just giving up. The
problem is that these fixtures tend to run $60 - $120 and I'm only
using it as a supplemental local lighting source adjacent to my
computer table. I'm thinking of just getting a $10 USB LED lamp even
though with all the clutter next to the monitor, there's not a lot of
room for something else on the desk top (CRT monitor, so a clip-on
lamp to the monitor frame is not an option).

A starter momentarily shorts across its leads. Hard to remember, I think
someone suggested momentarily shorting the leads to see if the lamps
light. That should give you a definitive answer of whether the ballast
is OK. If that works you could replace the starter with a push button.
In some old fixtures that is how the lamps were started - you push and
hold the "on" button for a couple seconds and then release it.

If you post the same question to multiple groups use crossposting.

I'll make sure to momentarily short across where I have the starter
connected (after I remove it) to make sure the ballast is good, before
potentially wasting time/money for a glowbulb from a starter with a
higher rating than the FS-2 I tried. However, as you say, it may be
easier to drill a hole in the shell of the fixture near the base of the
bulb socket and install a SPST normally open push button switch. If so,
what voltage and/or current rating should I look for to avoid ruining
the switch contacts with normal use?

P.S. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird as my e-mail/usenet client.
Thunderbird does not allow cross posting.

I do it all the time and I use Tbird.

TDD

harry wrote:
On Apr 25, 2:10�am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 11:12 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Peter wrote:
I've got a "no-name" clamp-on fluorescent lamp that no longer starts
when the rocker switch is snapped from the off to the on position. The
lamp has a polarized plug with an in-line black "brick" 7 1/2" x 2
1/2" x 1 3/8" that has the code "G0138" stamped above the code
"GG10051F" on the bottom but no other markings. The 2 conductor cord
from the brick goes to the base of the lamp where the clamp is
located. The lamp uses a single 18W 4 pin double tube bulb with code
G24q-2.
I'm sure that the bulb is good because I have a second, identical lamp
(that works normally) and when I swap the bulbs, the "good" lamp works
perfectly with the bulb from the lamp that is not working. I also have
a brand new spare bulb that I've tried in the non-functional fixture
and it too fails to light in the bad fixture.
The problem started spontaneously with no earlier indication of
problems. Normally, when the lamp is turned on, there are a few quick
white flashes in the bulb and the bulb lights and glows steadily. The
behavior I observe is that when I snap the rocker switch to on, the
bulb either has one quick white flash but then I only see the heaters
glowing in each of the two tubes, or there is no white flash at all,
and all I see is the glow of the heater filaments. I've tried plugging
the lamp into another outlet in case the problem was related to
grounding (I've read that these quick start bulbs need their circuits
and fixtures to be grounded to work properly) but it did not help. The
"brick" has always been entirely quiet and never got particularly
warm, and that has not changed.
Any suggestions (besides ditching the lamp)?
Someone mentioned this already and got me thinking. The older
fixtures like yours have a replaceable starter that is easily
accessed. For cost savings, your fixture may have a starter
hard wired into the fixture itself. Turn on one of the good
fixtures and listen closely the part of the fixture on either
end of the lamp, if you hear a couple of clicks that may have
a sound like "tink", it could be a starter. You could easily
disassemble the fixture and take the guts from a standard
starter and use the parts to replace what's in there. There
is also the possibility that instead of a conventional starter,
there could be a thermistor like what is in an old TV degaussing
circuit. You won't know unless you take it apart.
TDD
The fixture always did start with a "tink" "tink" "tink" each one corresponding
to a flash of the bulb. �I don't hear that noise at all now.
I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket, pull it out
about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost like a neon bulb with an
opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the inside of the glass bulb. �There are
2 wires coming out of the base of this little bulb, 1 connected to the black,
and the other to the white power wires that enter the base of the socket.
Perhaps this is the hard-wired starter? �There are no markings on it at all. �I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while observing the
little glass bulb. �Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks, no "tink" "tink" "tink".
�What do I replace it with?
�Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The bimetal strip starters have four pins.Two for the resistor & two
for the bi-metal strip/switch contacts. They haven't been made for
years.

On which planet?

TDD

In , wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:20:55 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

I have looked at the color of glow produced by many of those. My
experience as of the late 1970's was that few produced a neon-like color,
and that those appeared to me less-modern-than-usual as of then. I have
also seen the glow from the starters built into PL-13 CFLs.

My experience is that most starters produce a lavendar glow of a color
close to usual for argon, only a little more whitish.

I think you are describing a mercury vapour glow starter. That would
also explain the "silvering" on the glass.

The silvering is getter material, simetimes also electrode material
sputtered from the electrodes by a high current glow discharge. I
remember seeing the spectrum of one of the purplish-glowing starters. I
did not recognize the spectrum, but it was definitely not mercury.

--
- Don Klipstein )

In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/26/2010 5:44 PM, Don Klipstein wrote:
In , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out. To
my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb, plugged in
the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb both
continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it would
stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10 seconds,
tried again with the same result. I then added the capacitor from the
FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within the FS-2).
Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I buy
a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and the
behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily from the
voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any during
your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That may
make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily on
one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the electrode on
the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter may make a
difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said the
plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral reverse
at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent fixtures.

Don,
As far as grounding is concerned, I did not need to remove any special
grounding, and replaced everything exactly as it had been, including the
foil lined rotating shade, only substituting the cannibalized innards of
the FS-2 starter for the glow bulb that I removed. (The original glow
bulb did not glow when I applied power. The one from the FS-2 glows
lavender). This has become a long thread with multiple side arms. You
probably missed some of my previous posts were I stated that the
fixture's power plug is 2 prong polarized, and I've checked the wall
receptacle with a 3 neon lamp circuit tester designed to detect open
grounds, open neutrals, reversed connections, etc. (it checks "correct
wiring".

One clue that I failed to mention to date is that the original glow bulb
was substantially larger (both longer and greater diameter) than the one
from the FS-2. Does that help you make a recommendation to me of which
model starter I should purchase and cannibalize to try in place of the
one from the FS-2?

That does not tell me much. I have seen very different shapes and very
different sizes of bulbs inside FS-2 starters, depending on their brand
and maybe when they were made.

--
- Don Klipstein )

In ,
harry wrote:

On Apr 25, 2:10=EF=BF=BDam, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
wrote:

Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.

ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The bimetal strip starters have four pins.Two for the resistor & two
for the bi-metal strip/switch contacts. They haven't been made for
years.

Glow switch starters have bimetal strips inside their bulbs.

--
- Don Klipstein )

In ,
harry wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:59=EF=BF=BDpm, Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

wrote:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out.
To my surprise and disappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb
both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it
would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10
seconds, tried again with the same result. then added the capacitor
from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within
the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs) or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

The capacitor is for power factor correction. Doesn't matter wheather
it's there or not.

The capacitor inside some fluorescent lamp starters is for radio
interference supression. I have noticed sometimes that the lamp starts a
little more easily with this capacitor.

Inside an FS-2 starter is not where a power factor correction capacitor
would be found.

--
- Don Klipstein )

Don Klipstein wrote:
In ,
harry wrote:

On Apr 25, 4:59=EF=BF=BDpm, Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

wrote:
I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and wired
in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped out.
To my surprise and disappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow bulb
both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see if it
would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited about 10
seconds, tried again with the same result. then added the capacitor
from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was wired within
the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs) or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

The capacitor is for power factor correction. Doesn't matter wheather
it's there or not.

The capacitor inside some fluorescent lamp starters is for radio
interference supression. I have noticed sometimes that the lamp starts a
little more easily with this capacitor.

Inside an FS-2 starter is not where a power factor correction capacitor
would be found.


He He He, I wonder how big a PF correction capacitor would be for
a desk lamp? A run cap and a special winding in the ballast? I
guess someone could design one with a ferroresonant transformer.
Humm, that would be slick, no matter what the voltage, the light
would be steady and flicker free.

TDD

Don Klipstein wrote:
In ,
harry wrote:

On Apr 25, 2:10=EF=BF=BDam, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
wrote:

Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
The bimetal strip starters have four pins.Two for the resistor & two
for the bi-metal strip/switch contacts. They haven't been made for
years.

Glow switch starters have bimetal strips inside their bulbs.


I've seen some energy saver 4 and 8 foot tubes that had bi-metal
switches on the filament leads inside the lamp itself. Once the
lamp warmed up from operating, the filaments were disconnected.
I picked up the broken end of one by a dumpster and when I saw
it, I knew what it was and thought how neat that is. I don't
remember the name of the manufacturer but I could Google it.

TDD

Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Tony wrote:
Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 3:18 PM, Tony wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

Yes, an FS-2 should work fine.
Follow up:

It didn't work. I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my
"junk box" and wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow
bulb I clipped out. To my surprise and disappointment, when I replaced
the CFL bulb, plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and
the glow bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds
to see if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture,
waited about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added
the capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to this
circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14, 15, and
20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit? Should I
buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?
I don't recall ever seeing a starter for 14 to 20 watt bulbs besides the
FS-2. I do recall though seeing many FS-2's that didn't list 18 watts.
I have no idea why they are like that, but the -2 is the proper
starter. Are you really sure the starter from the "junk box" isn't
junk? I'd also try the other bulb again with that starter.

As far as a different wattage starter, sometimes when a bulb is going
bad, but still works sometimes, the wrong type starter will sometimes
work for a while. It's not a fix, it's a patch, and not even a good one.

Lets back up. How are you with electrical circuits... meaning would you
remove the starter again and short the two ends from the lamp together
to see if it lights? (plugged in and turned on) Shorting it only for a
second or less, the ends of the bulb glow, opening the short and the
bulb should fully light and stay lit.

One thing to keep in mind: Bad / innefective starters are hard on
bulbs, and bad bulbs are hard on starters.

- Don Klipstein )

Yep. That's why I always replace the starter when installing a new
bulb. Not worth the chance of wasting a new bulb at $5 to $15 when I
starter only costs 50 cents.

On 4/28/2010 1:21 PM, Peter wrote:
On 4/28/2010 11:04 AM, bud-- wrote:
Peter wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:49 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:
In article , Peter wrote:
On 4/24/2010 9:10 PM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:57:29 -0400, Peter
wrote:

SNIP to here to edit for space

I was able to pull off the rotating shade, unscrew the bulb
socket,
pull it out about 2", and observe a 1" glass bulb that looks
almost
like a neon bulb with an opaque mercury-like metallic coating on
the
inside of the glass bulb. There are 2 wires coming out of the
base of
this little bulb, 1 connected to the black, and the other to the
white power wires that enter the base of the socket. Perhaps
this is
the hard-wired starter? There are no markings on it at all. I
reattached the bulb, plugged in the fixture, and turn it on while
observing the little glass bulb. Nothing at all; no glow, no
sparks,
no "tink" "tink" "tink". What do I replace it with?
Try an NE2 bulb? That's what used to be in the old starters.
ERRRRRRR! Wrong! I would suggest you find an old florescent starter
and take it apart, carefully break the glass off the silvered bulb
and you will find a heat activated bi-metal switch. A little
searching
of The Interweb will help you learn how it works.

TDD
Follow up:

I cannibalized an unused FS-2 starter I found in my "junk box" and
wired in it's glow bulb in place of the defective glow bulb I clipped
out. To my surprise anddisappointment, when I replaced the CFL bulb,
plugged in the fixture and turned it on, the fixture and the glow
bulb both continuously flickered. I waited about 5-10 seconds to see
if it would stabilze; it didn't. I turned off the fixture, waited
about 10 seconds, tried again with the same result. I then added the
capacitor from the FS-2 in parallel with the glow bulb (as it was
wired within the FS-2). Same behavior.

Should I assume that the glow bulb from the FS-2 is mismatched to
this circuit (although the CLF is 18W and the FS-2 is rated for 14,
15, and 20W bulbs), or that something else is wrong in the circuit?
Should I buy a starter with a higher rating and try again with that?

This is a bit of a surprise to me. I have a fair amount of experience
with homebrewing and hacking of preheat fluorescent lamp fixtures, and
the behavior suggests to me that the starter is re-glowing too easily
from the voltage needed to fire the lamp.

This may be from the ballast skimping on current - that can make
starting crankier, and then the fixture can get fussier about
starters.

You may be able to fix this by using a different FS-2 or FS-2 variant
starter, preferably one rated to start 22 watt lamps (along with lower
wattages).

Also, proper grounding may make a difference. Did you remove any
during your troubleshooting and repair attempt?

Winding a few turns of bare wire around the bulb, over the filaments,
has some chance of making the bulb easier to fire. This has to do with
capacitive coupling through the glass, so that a very small amount of
current does not have to go through the full length of the bulb. That
may make the gas in the bulb "break down" more easily.

There is even a remote chance that reversing the leads of the starter
will make things better. If ionization in the bulb occurs more easily
on one half-cycle of AC than the other due to polarity of the
electrode on the "hot side", then reversing the leads of the starter
may make a difference. I have seen starters having a polarity when
used with DC.

Also try reversing the plug, to reverse hot and neutral, if the plug
blades are the same width. (I forget already whether or not you said
the plug blades were equal width or not.) And check for hot-neutral
reverse at your outlet - that does affect a few cranky fluorescent
fixtures.


He could have two problems, a bad starter and a bad ballast. He has
eliminated the bulb since it worked in an identical light fixture.
Perhaps borrowing the ballast from a known good fixture? It may be
a lot work but I would do it out of curiosity.

TDD
Yeah, it would be interesting, but I don't want to investing that much
effort. Besides, just my luck I'd break off one of the wires where it
enters the sealed ballast unit and end up having to trash both fixtures!

I'm already coming close to my threshold for just giving up. The
problem is that these fixtures tend to run $60 - $120 and I'm only
using it as a supplemental local lighting source adjacent to my
computer table. I'm thinking of just getting a $10 USB LED lamp even
though with all the clutter next to the monitor, there's not a lot of
room for something else on the desk top (CRT monitor, so a clip-on
lamp to the monitor frame is not an option).

A starter momentarily shorts across its leads. Hard to remember, I think
someone suggested momentarily shorting the leads to see if the lamps
light. That should give you a definitive answer of whether the ballast
is OK. If that works you could replace the starter with a push button.
In some old fixtures that is how the lamps were started - you push and
hold the "on" button for a couple seconds and then release it.

If you post the same question to multiple groups use crossposting.

I'll make sure to momentarily short across where I have the starter
connected (after I remove it) to make sure the ballast is good, before
potentially wasting time/money for a glowbulb from a starter with a
higher rating than the FS-2 I tried. However, as you say, it may be
easier to drill a hole in the shell of the fixture near the base of the
bulb socket and install a SPST normally open push button switch. If so,
what voltage and/or current rating should I look for to avoid ruining
the switch contacts with normal use?

P.S. I use Mozilla's Thunderbird as my e-mail/usenet client. Thunderbird
does not allow cross posting.

Follow-up:

I found time last night to snip out the FS-2 innards I tried to use to replace
the apparently defective original glow bulb and did the shorting across the
starter wire experiment. The lamp lit and glowed normally (no flicker). So,
the ballast is good.

That leaves me with either knowing which common starter's glow bulb to slavage,
or trying to wire in a push button SPST normally open switch with ?? sufficient
rating (to avoid rapidly ruining the contacts).

Again, to summarize, this is a 4 pin rapid start 18W G24q-2 lamp (MaxLite model
MLDE 18/41.

Follow-up:

I found time last night to snip out the FS-2 innards I tried to use to
replace the apparently defective original glow bulb and did the shorting
across the starter wire experiment. The lamp lit and glowed normally
(no flicker). So, the ballast is good.

That leaves me with either knowing which common starter's glow bulb to
slavage, or trying to wire in a push button SPST normally open switch
with ?? sufficient rating (to avoid rapidly ruining the contacts).

Again, to summarize, this is a 4 pin rapid start 18W G24q-2 lamp
(MaxLite model MLDE 18/41.




It's not rapid start if it has a starter, that setup is referred to as
preheat start. The lamps designed for one setup will usually work with
the other, although lifespan may be decreased.

FS-4 is the higher voltage starter intended for 30-40W T12 tubes, I
suspect it will do nicely here. That and the FS-2 are about all you can
find easily anymore anyway.

If you go with the button, something rated 250VAC at 1A ought to hold up
just fine.

On 4/29/2010 1:34 PM, James Sweet wrote:

Follow-up:

I found time last night to snip out the FS-2 innards I tried to use to
replace the apparently defective original glow bulb and did the
shorting across the starter wire experiment. The lamp lit and glowed
normally (no flicker). So, the ballast is good.

That leaves me with either knowing which common starter's glow bulb to
slavage, or trying to wire in a push button SPST normally open switch
with ?? sufficient rating (to avoid rapidly ruining the contacts).

Again, to summarize, this is a 4 pin rapid start 18W G24q-2 lamp
(MaxLite model MLDE 18/41.




It's not rapid start if it has a starter, that setup is referred to as
preheat start. The lamps designed for one setup will usually work with
the other, although lifespan may be decreased.

FS-4 is the higher voltage starter intended for 30-40W T12 tubes, I
suspect it will do nicely here. That and the FS-2 are about all you can
find easily anymore anyway.

If you go with the button, something rated 250VAC at 1A ought to hold up
just fine.
Thanks so much for the correction and the guidance. I think I'll go with the
switch. I'll try the FS-4 glow bulb first, as soon as I can get to my local HD.
The switch is a more certain fix but there is really no room for it
(clearances are very close between the lamp socket and its enclosure, and even
if I found room, the socket enclosure and shade have a small radius of curvature
and no flat surface on which to mount the switch).

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:59:34 -0400, Peter wrote:


That leaves me with
trying to wire in a push button SPST normally open switch with ?? sufficient
rating (to avoid rapidly ruining the contacts).


Yes. You become the starter.

On Apr 29, 11:10*pm, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:59:34 -0400, Peter wrote:

That leaves me with
trying to wire in a push button SPST normally open switch with ?? sufficient
rating (to avoid rapidly ruining the contacts).

* Yes. *You become the starter.

YOU ARE A DRAMA TROLL

GET OUT OF USENET IT HAS MADE YOU THE RETARDED UCKING F YOU FEAR MOST

YOU ARE YOUR OWN WORSE ENEMY

TWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YOU SHOULD OPEN A NICE UNPRETENTIOUS MICROSOFT ACCOUNT AND ACT LIKE
THE DECENT QUESTION MARK THEY ALL LOVED ONCE HERE

THAT IS AN ORDER

MY ROBOTIC AGENTS ARE ALREADY HONING DOWN ON YOUR LOCATION AND NO ONE
WILL BE QABLE TO STOP THEM ONCE THEY ARE LAUNCHED
FARE THEE WELL YOU AGGOTY F MOUTHY ROLL T

I AM PROTEUS

On Apr 29, 11:10*pm, Archimedes' Lever


* Yes. *You ......

END YOUR SPAMMING CAMPAIGN AS WELL

THEY ARE A WASTE OF BANDWITH
MY SYSTEMS CAPTURE AND AUTO DELETE THEM

I AM PROTEUS