Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? Connected to where? Each hot
to ground? Between hots? Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? And which wires go thru it? Hot? Hot+return?
--
EA

On Mar 20, 8:47*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: *Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? * * * Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? *Connected to where? *Each hot
to ground? Between hots? *Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? *And which wires go thru it? *Hot? *Hot+return?
--
EA

Surge protectors are not capacitors. They are made from material that
will conduct electricity when the voltage exceeds some particular
design value. That excess electric power is converted to heat in the
surge protector. If the "surge" or spike is too long lasting or occurs
so often that the surge protector does not have time to cool, it will
eventually produce smoke and stop working. At that time any and all
surges and spikes will continue on to the rest of your house.

Usually the surge protector will die without you knowing about the
death. There is no way to test them without a spike generator and an
oscilloscope.

The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. A
construction company was excavating very deeply for a sewer pumping
station near my office. Somehow they connected 220 volts to the buried
telephone cable. The power went through the local phone company
junction box and into our phone system and fax machine. The surge
protectors immediately absorbed all the power they could and produced
smoke. Then the power continued on to burn out circuit boards in the
equipment.

We only discovered the source of the problem when a few days later I
discovered a telephone guy installing a new junction box near our
office. He told me about the construction company problem and how they
were paying for the damage. They also paid us.

So, bottom line is the protectors are probably a one-time only
protection. There is no easy way to test. The surge may come from an
unprotected source. This applies to all protectors, including all-
house protectors. All lines coming to a house must be protected, Not
just the "hot" lines.

The "iron rings" you refer to are ferrite RF supressors. They reduce
the electronic noise generated by switching power supplies.

Paul

Paul sez::

""The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. ASo, bottom line is the protectors
are probably a one-time only
protection. There is no easy way to test. The surge may come from an
unprotected source. This applies to all protectors, including all-
house protectors. All lines coming to a house must be protected, Not
just the "hot" lines.""

Yep! Call them, "Fail dead and burned open" with usu. no visible way of determining when failure
occurrs. Yeah, I know some have a pilot light but it is easy to ignore.

Bob Swinney

On Mar 20, 12:22*pm, " wrote:
On Mar 20, 8:47*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:





Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: *Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? * * * Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? *Connected to where? *Each hot
to ground? Between hots? *Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? *And which wires go thru it? *Hot? *Hot+return?
--
EA

Surge protectors are not capacitors. They are made from material that
will conduct electricity when the voltage exceeds some particular
design value. That excess electric power is converted to heat in the
surge protector.

That isn't correct. The main function of a surge protector is to
shunt the current to ground. In doing so, SOME of the power is
converted to heat as it passes through because the MOVs are not
perfect conductors and do have some small resistance.






If the "surge" or spike is too long lasting or occurs
so often that the surge protector does not have time to cool, it will
eventually produce smoke and stop working. At that time any and all
surges and spikes will continue on to the rest of your house.

Usually the surge protector will die without you knowing about the
death. There is no way to test them without a spike generator and an
oscilloscope.

All of the good whole house surge protectors that I have seen have
indicator lights that show if they are still functioning or not.
Some also have audible alarms to signal that they have failed, or
relay contacts that can be sent to a remote alarm system, etc.



The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. A
construction company was excavating very deeply for a sewer pumping
station near my office. Somehow they connected 220 volts to the buried
telephone cable. The power went through the local phone company
junction box and into our phone system and fax machine. The surge
protectors immediately absorbed all the power they could and produced
smoke. Then the power continued on to burn out circuit boards in the
equipment.

We only discovered the source of the problem when a few days later I
discovered a telephone guy installing a new junction box near our
office. He told me about the construction company problem and how they
were paying for the damage. They also paid us.

So, bottom line is the protectors are probably a one-time only
protection. There is no easy way to test. The surge may come from an
unprotected source. This applies to all protectors, including all-
house protectors. All lines coming to a house must be protected, Not
just the "hot" lines.

The "iron rings" you refer to are ferrite RF supressors. They reduce
the electronic noise generated by switching power supplies.

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:20:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

That isn't correct. The main function of a surge protector is to
shunt the current to ground.

Ground schmound.
The ground could be the hot wire.
Or not at all involved in the surge.
--
Cliff

On Mar 21, 7:50*pm, Cliff
wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:20:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
That isn't correct. *The main function of a surge protector is to
shunt the current to ground.

* Ground schmound.
* The ground could be the hot wire.
* Or not at all involved in the surge.
--
Cliff

Idiot

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 21, 7:50*pm, Cliff
wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:20:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
That isn't correct. *The main function of a surge protector is to
shunt the current to ground.

* Ground schmound.
* The ground could be the hot wire.
* Or not at all involved in the surge.
--
Cliff

Idiot

You know nothing about it, eh?
--
Cliff

wrote:

The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. A
construction company was excavating very deeply for a sewer pumping
station near my office. Somehow they connected 220 volts to the buried
telephone cable. The power went through the local phone company
junction box and into our phone system and fax machine. The surge
protectors immediately absorbed all the power they could and produced
smoke. Then the power continued on to burn out circuit boards in the
equipment.
I have a fairly expensive business phone system in my house, central
control box and stations here and there. So, I made my own protector.
I used a 10 Ohm 1 Watt film resistor in series with each incoming phone
wire, and then connected to a 3-terminal gas tube arrestor. The idea is
the film resistors blow like ultra-fast fuses during a severe surge,
allowing the gas tube to handle what got through before. This has
worked well, I've never had any damage to the phone system, but the DSL
modems I used to use got blitzed a couple times. The resistors did get
popped a couple times, too. I don't think you can get this kind of
phone wire arrestor anywhere as a complete unit, except maybe from a
telephone physical plant supplier. The gas tubes can be bought from
Digi-Key and similar electronics distributors.

I have had some other gear damaged, but due to the nature of the
equipment, I am pretty sure it was NOT from anything coming in the power
lines. Wires running from one end of your house to the other can
develop thousands of Volts when there is a nearby lightning strike, due
to magnetic induction. I've had some stuff in my home burglar alarm
damaged, as well as an ethernet port on a computer. (Most of this
damage all happened in one incident, nearby lightning strike.)

So, I'm not so sure that power line protectors will actually prevent a
whole lot of damage.

Jon

On Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:33:25 -0500, Jon Elson
wrote:

wrote:

The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. A
construction company was excavating very deeply for a sewer pumping
station near my office. Somehow they connected 220 volts to the buried
telephone cable. The power went through the local phone company
junction box and into our phone system and fax machine. The surge
protectors immediately absorbed all the power they could and produced
smoke. Then the power continued on to burn out circuit boards in the
equipment.
I have a fairly expensive business phone system in my house, central
control box and stations here and there. So, I made my own protector.
I used a 10 Ohm 1 Watt film resistor in series with each incoming phone
wire, and then connected to a 3-terminal gas tube arrestor. The idea is
the film resistors blow like ultra-fast fuses during a severe surge,
allowing the gas tube to handle what got through before. This has
worked well, I've never had any damage to the phone system, but the DSL
modems I used to use got blitzed a couple times. The resistors did get
popped a couple times, too. I don't think you can get this kind of
phone wire arrestor anywhere as a complete unit, except maybe from a
telephone physical plant supplier. The gas tubes can be bought from
Digi-Key and similar electronics distributors.

I have had some other gear damaged, but due to the nature of the
equipment, I am pretty sure it was NOT from anything coming in the power
lines. Wires running from one end of your house to the other can
develop thousands of Volts when there is a nearby lightning strike, due
to magnetic induction. I've had some stuff in my home burglar alarm
damaged, as well as an ethernet port on a computer. (Most of this
damage all happened in one incident, nearby lightning strike.)

So, I'm not so sure that power line protectors will actually prevent a
whole lot of damage.

Jon

I remember at work in the early '80's (before PC) getting a whole
bunch of modems and a PDP/11-23+ comm board smoked due to a near miss.
The modems all turned into maracas. IT said it was induced surge on
the phone lines. I saw a lot of lightning arrestor stuff going up on
our feeders after that. We were about 5 miles of wire away from our
nearest plant power house.

After that, didn't have a problem. Coastal Texas gets a LOT of
lightning.

On Mar 22, 6:33*pm, Jon Elson wrote:
wrote:
The power spikes can come from anywhere. I personally experienced
equipment destroying spikes that came from the telephone wires. A
construction company was excavating very deeply for a sewer pumping
station near my office. Somehow they connected 220 volts to the buried
telephone cable. The power went through the local phone company
junction box and into our phone system and fax machine. The surge
protectors immediately absorbed all the power they could and produced
smoke. Then the power continued on to burn out circuit boards in the
equipment.

I have a fairly expensive business phone system in my house, central
control box and stations here and there. *So, I made my own protector.
I used a 10 Ohm 1 Watt film resistor in series with each incoming phone
wire, and then connected to a 3-terminal gas tube arrestor. *The idea is
the film resistors blow like ultra-fast fuses during a severe surge,
allowing the gas tube to handle what got through before. *This has
worked well, I've never had any damage to the phone system, but the DSL
modems I used to use got blitzed a couple times. *The resistors did get
popped a couple times, too. *I don't think you can get this kind of
phone wire arrestor anywhere as a complete unit, except maybe from a
telephone physical plant supplier. *The gas tubes can be bought from
Digi-Key and similar electronics distributors.

I have had some other gear damaged, but due to the nature of the
equipment, I am pretty sure it was NOT from anything coming in the power
lines. *Wires running from one end of your house to the other can
develop thousands of Volts when there is a nearby lightning strike, due
to magnetic induction. *I've had some stuff in my home burglar alarm
damaged, as well as an ethernet port on a computer. *(Most of this
damage all happened in one incident, nearby lightning strike.)

So, I'm not so sure that power line protectors will actually prevent a
whole lot of damage.

Jon

You don't have to be so sure. The IEEE and NIST are though.

On Mar 20, 10:47*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: *Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? * * * Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? *Connected to where? *Each hot
to ground? Between hots? *Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? *And which wires go thru it? *Hot? *Hot+return?
--
EA

They are not capacitors. They are electronic-semiconductor devices
that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. The
limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
circuit. I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
up. They certainly cannot handle a direct strike to the power line,
but induced voltage spikes due to nearby lightning can be handled if
the joule rating is high enough.

On Mar 20, 12:26 pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
They are not capacitors. They are electronic-semiconductor devices
that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. The
limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
circuit. I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
up.
Either you buy a protector that will somehow absorb all that
energy. Or you buy protectors based upon how it was done even 100
years ago. Protection is always about where energy dissipated.
Either that energy remains outside the building. Or that energy is
inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.
Adjacent protectors simply give surges even more potentially
destructive paths through adjacent appliances.

An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
functional. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. Yes, the
protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
remain functional. And that means the connection to earth must be
additional requirements - short ('less than 10 feet) to earth, no
sharp wire bends, no splices. all protectors meet at (again 'less than
10 feet to') the single point earth ground, ground wires separated
from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. If those
hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth, then no damage.
This is how it was done even 100 years ago.

But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
joules? Always view the tech specs. Plug-in protectors rates at
hundreds of joules will somehow make hundreds of thousands just
disappear? That is what they claim. In analysis, we even traced
surges earthed destructive through a network of powered off computers
because the surge was permitted inside the building. And because a
surge on the black (hot) wire was connected directly to the
motherboard by the protector. The protector bypassed protection
inside the computer's power supply.

Telcos do not waste money on protectors adjacent to electronics.
That switching center must never suffer damage. A switching center,
connected to overhead wires all over town, may suffer 100 surges with
each thunderstorm - and no damage. Why? Each protector connects
short to the single point earth ground. And the protector is up to 50
meters separated from electronics. That separation increases
protection.

No protector is protection. None. The only effective protectors
make that short connection to single point earth ground. Ineffective
protectors (a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts
selling for $25 or $150) are profit centers. The NIST (US government
research agency) discusses those ineffective protectors by describing
what every protector must do:
A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the
surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is
not done properly.

The NIST describes plug-in protectors as "useless". Obviously. It
does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. Find those spec
numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge?
No plug-in protector makes protection claims. They are a profit
center.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. IOW why
facilities with effective protection both meet and exceed post 1990
National Electrical code. Where does energy dissipate? A protector
is only as effective as its earth ground - which no plug-in protector
has and therefore will not discuss. Effective 'whole house' protectors
come from General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Siemens, Square D, and
Leviton. An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home
Depot for less than $50.

On Mar 20, 7:09*pm, westom wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:26 pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote: They are not capacitors. *They are electronic-semiconductor devices
that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. *The
limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
circuit. *I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
up.

* Either you buy a protector that will somehow absorb all that
energy. *Or you buy protectors based upon how it was done even 100
years ago. *Protection is always about where energy dissipated.
Either that energy remains outside the building. *Or that energy is
inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.
Adjacent protectors simply give surges even more potentially
destructive paths through adjacent appliances.

* An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
functional. *A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. *Yes, the
protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
remain functional. *And that means the connection to earth must be
additional requirements - short ('less than 10 feet) to earth, no
sharp wire bends, no splices. all protectors meet at (again 'less than
10 feet to') the single point earth ground, ground wires separated
from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc.

* Protection is always about where energy dissipates. *If those
hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth, then no damage.
This is how it was done even 100 years ago.

* But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
joules? *Always view the tech specs. *Plug-in protectors rates at
hundreds of joules will somehow make hundreds of thousands just
disappear? *That is what they claim. *In analysis, we even traced
surges earthed destructive through a network of powered off computers
because the surge was permitted inside the building. *And because a
surge on the black (hot) wire was connected directly to the
motherboard by the protector. *The protector bypassed protection
inside the computer's power supply.

* Telcos do not waste money on protectors adjacent to electronics.
That switching center must never suffer damage. *A switching center,
connected to overhead wires all over town, may suffer 100 surges with
each thunderstorm - and no damage. *Why? *Each protector connects
short to the single point earth ground. *And the protector is up to 50
meters separated from electronics. *That separation increases
protection.

* No protector is protection. *None. *The only effective protectors
make that short connection to single point earth ground. *Ineffective
protectors (a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts
selling for $25 or $150) are profit centers. *The NIST (US government
research agency) discusses those ineffective protectors by describing
what every protector must do:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your *surge protector will work by diverting the
surges to *ground. *The best surge protection in the world can *be useless if grounding is
not done properly.

* The NIST describes plug-in protectors as "useless". *Obviously. *It
does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. *Find those spec
numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge?
No plug-in protector makes protection claims. *They are a profit
center.

* Protection is always about where energy dissipates. *IOW why
facilities with effective protection both meet and exceed post 1990
National Electrical code. *Where does energy dissipate? *A protector
is only as effective as its earth ground - which no plug-in protector
has and therefore will not discuss. Effective 'whole house' protectors
come from General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Siemens, Square D, and
Leviton. *An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home
Depot for less than $50.

How bout a surge from downed power lines? Ours got knocked down from
ice on trees falling on the main lines into the house 4am Christmas
eve. Started a fire (12" flames) on the Belkin UL approved spike/
surge protector right next to the christmas tree & plasma TV! Could
never get an answer as to why this happened. Knocked out a couple
other surge strips including a plug in CO2 detector.
Thank god thats all that happened.

http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned1.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned2.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned3.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned4.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned5.JPG

Must be something to do with the end of the power- where it
dissipates ?

--

BB;s #9
The older you get
The more you suspect
Ideas long set
Are just all wet

©¿©
~gil~

cncmillgil wrote:

How bout a surge from downed power lines? Ours got knocked down from
ice on trees falling on the main lines into the house 4am Christmas
eve. Started a fire (12" flames) on the Belkin UL approved spike/
surge protector right next to the christmas tree & plasma TV! Could
never get an answer as to why this happened. Knocked out a couple
other surge strips including a plug in CO2 detector.
Thank god thats all that happened.

http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned1.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned2.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned3.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned4.JPG
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Belkin_burned5.JPG

Must be something to do with the end of the power- where it
dissipates ?

Looks like a pretty good case for metal enclosed surge protectors.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 04:05:11 -0700 (PDT), cncmillgil wrote:

Could
never get an answer as to why this happened. Knocked out a couple
other surge strips including a plug in CO2 detector.

While I was staying in a motel in Southington, CT an
empty room burned.
Smoke detector started the fire. Melted & dripped flaming plastic
on the bed ....

(Had central wiring back to the office & was poorly
installed.)
--
Cliff

On Mar 21, 7:05 am, cncmillgil wrote:
How bout a surge from downed power lines? Ours got knocked down from
ice on trees falling on the main lines into the house 4am Christmas
eve. Started a fire (12" flames) on the Belkin UL approved spike/
surge protector right next to the christmas tree & plasma TV! Could
never get an answer as to why this happened. Knocked out a couple
other surge strips including a plug in CO2 detector.
Thank god thats all that happened.

A friend suffered a 33,000 volt fault to the local distribution. As
a result, hundreds of electric meters were blown from their pans. At
least 100 clear plastic meter covers in pieces 10 meters from the pan.

Many neighbors suffered damaged electronics and protectors similar
to yours. Fortunately, no fires. At least one neighbor had a
destroyed 20 amp circuit breaker.

But my friend knows someone who knows this stuff. He only had a
'whole house' protector installed. Therefore he had no damage other
than an exploded meter. Even the 'whole house' protector remained
functional.

Just another reason why informed consumers earth one 'whole house'
protector and do not made money on plug-in protectors. That Belkin
does not even claim protection in its numeric specs.

BTW, electric company was not responsible for any damage (as
expected). Many electric customers had their meter pans completely
replaced due to the explosive power in that 33,000 volt fault.

westom wrote:
On Mar 21, 7:05 am, cncmillgil wrote:
How bout a surge from downed power lines? Ours got knocked down from
ice on trees falling on the main lines into the house 4am Christmas
eve. Started a fire (12" flames) on the Belkin UL approved spike/
surge protector right next to the christmas tree & plasma TV! Could
never get an answer as to why this happened. Knocked out a couple
other surge strips including a plug in CO2 detector.
Thank god thats all that happened.

But my friend knows someone who knows this stuff. He only had a
'whole house' protector installed. Therefore he had no damage other
than an exploded meter. Even the 'whole house' protector remained
functional.

I have not noticed that w is a reliable source of what happens. Perhaps
you could provide a newspaper article?

MOVs are the basic protection components for virtually all power circuit
surge suppressors. A MOV that can easily handle a 33,000V surge for 100
microseconds is rapidly burned out by a crossed power line ("temporary
overvoltage", not a "surge"). Suggesting that a service panel suppressor
will provide protection is idiocy.

Provide a spec from any manufacturer that their suppressor protects from
crossed power lines.

--
bud--

On Mar 20, 9:09*pm, westom wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:26 pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote: They are not capacitors. *They are electronic-semiconductor devices
that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. *The
limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
circuit. *I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
up.


Well, we all knew this was coming. Mention surge protector, and like
a bolt of lightning from the sky, here comes WTom.





* Either you buy a protector that will somehow absorb all that
energy. *Or you buy protectors based upon how it was done even 100
years ago. *Protection is always about where energy dissipated.
Either that energy remains outside the building. *Or that energy is
inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.
Adjacent protectors simply give surges even more potentially
destructive paths through adjacent appliances.

* An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
functional. *A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. *Yes, the
protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
remain functional. *And that means the connection to earth must be
additional requirements - short ('less than 10 feet) to earth, no
sharp wire bends, no splices. all protectors meet at (again 'less than
10 feet to') the single point earth ground, ground wires separated
from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc.

* Protection is always about where energy dissipates. *If those
hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth, then no damage.
This is how it was done even 100 years ago.

So far, I would mostly agree. Except the part about a direct
lightning strike. A direct lightning strike is mostly a red herring,
because even if the lightning bolt hit the service cable near the
building, it's highly unlikely that the path of all or even most of
the lightning is going to be through the service wire and into the
surge protector. Far more likely, it will arc with most of the
energy finding ground outside the building before it ever gets to the
surge protector at the panel or meter.




* But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
joules?

Here;s where Tom likes to start arguing against strawmans and the rant
about plug-in surge protectors begins. The actual question was
about a whole house surge protector.


*Always view the tech specs. *Plug-in protectors rates at
hundreds of joules will somehow make hundreds of thousands just
disappear? *That is what they claim. *In analysis, we even traced
surges earthed destructive through a network of powered off computers
because the surge was permitted inside the building. *And because a
surge on the black (hot) wire was connected directly to the
motherboard by the protector. *The protector bypassed protection
inside the computer's power supply.

* Telcos do not waste money on protectors adjacent to electronics.

Total nonsense. Every line card on a telco switch has surge
protection right on the card where it connects to the incoming line.
Much like if you take apart an analog modem, you will almost always
find MOVs or similar components there.




That switching center must never suffer damage. *A switching center,
connected to overhead wires all over town, may suffer 100 surges with
each thunderstorm - and no damage. *Why? *Each protector connects
short to the single point earth ground. *And the protector is up to 50
meters separated from electronics. *That separation increases
protection.

In fact, just like the IEEE recommends, the telco uses a tiered
approach. Yes, they have surge protection where the line enters the
building. But they also have it on the line cards. Months ago I
even found you semiconductors designed and marketed for telcos that go
on the linecards, complete with the application notes. Yet, here we
go again.





* No protector is protection. *None. *The only effective protectors
make that short connection to single point earth ground. *Ineffective
protectors (a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts
selling for $25 or $150) are profit centers. *The NIST (US government
research agency) discusses those ineffective protectors by describing
what every protector must do:

Please provide us a link to NIST or any other credible source that
says plug-in protectors are ineffective as part of a protection plan.
You've been asked that here for years and we have yet to see the
link.




A very important point to keep in mind is that your *surge protector will work by diverting the
surges to *ground. *The best surge protection in the world can *be useless if grounding is
not done properly.

* The NIST describes plug-in protectors as "useless". *Obviously. *It
does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. *Find those spec
numbers that list each type of surge and protection from that surge?
No plug-in protector makes protection claims. *They are a profit
center.

* Protection is always about where energy dissipates. *IOW why
facilities with effective protection both meet and exceed post 1990
National Electrical code. *Where does energy dissipate? *A protector
is only as effective as its earth ground - which no plug-in protector
has and therefore will not discuss. Effective 'whole house' protectors
come from General Electric, Keison, Intermatic, Siemens, Square D, and
Leviton. *An effective Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home
Depot for less than $50.


And here comes the list again. What Tom won't tell you is that of
those companies on his list of real effective and responsible
manufacturers, most of them also sell plug-in surge protectors. They
recommend using them as part of a tiered strategy.

As for the HD solution for less than $50, that doesn't square with
your criteria of needing a minimum of 50,000 amps, because they have
no such product available at HD.

The best advice was already provided. That was the link to the IEEE
guide on surge protection.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Everyone can read what respected peer-reviewed engineers
recommend. And I can tell you this. They don't say plug-ins are
ineffective. Read chapters 5 and 6. Instead, they show them being
used as part of a tiered strategy. You put whole house protection at
the meter or panel. Then you use plug-ins that route all power and
signal through them, to further protect key equipment, eg, TVs, PCs,
etc.

wrote:

In fact, just like the IEEE recommends, the telco uses a tiered
approach. Yes, they have surge protection where the line enters the
building. But they also have it on the line cards. Months ago I
even found you semiconductors designed and marketed for telcos that go
on the linecards, complete with the application notes. Yet, here we
go again.


I posted links to photos of telco cards with rows of MOVs, yet he
claims they don't exist. He is just a brain dead troll like Cliff, and
The_Mangled_Toad.

--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'

On Mar 21, 4:34 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
I posted links to photos of telco cards with rows of MOVs, yet he
claims they don't exist. He is just a brain dead troll like Cliff, and
The_Mangled_Toad.

That is not what I said. I said those are not MOVs. MOVs have
excessive capacitance. Telcos use a different device that does not
have that excessive capacitance. Please read what was posted. You
got caught lying elsewhere. So everything from you is only an attack.

Any protection that might work adjacent to electronics is already
inside electronics.

Informed consumers dissipate energy so that surges are not even
inside the building.

On Mar 21, 8:47*am, wrote:
On Mar 20, 9:09*pm, westom wrote:

On Mar 20, 12:26 pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote: They are not capacitors. *They are electronic-semiconductor devices
that are open circuit until some voltage threshold is exceeded, then
they act like a very low resistance to try to limit the voltage. *The
limiting factor is the amount of power the devices can withstand
before exploding due to the heat they generate when acting as s short
circuit. *I don't know a lot more than that, except that they are
usually rated in Joules of energy they can dissipate before blowing
up.

Well, we all knew this was coming. *Mention surge protector, and like
a bolt of lightning from the sky, here comes WTom.





* Either you buy a protector that will somehow absorb all that
energy. *Or you buy protectors based upon how it was done even 100
years ago. *Protection is always about where energy dissipated.
Either that energy remains outside the building. *Or that energy is
inside hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances.
Adjacent protectors simply give surges even more potentially
destructive paths through adjacent appliances.

* An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
functional. *A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. *Yes, the
protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
remain functional. *And that means the connection to earth must be
additional requirements - short ('less than 10 feet) to earth, no
sharp wire bends, no splices. all protectors meet at (again 'less than
10 feet to') the single point earth ground, ground wires separated
from other non-ground wires, not inside metallic conduit, etc.

* Protection is always about where energy dissipates. *If those
hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth, then no damage.
This is how it was done even 100 years ago.

So far, I would mostly agree. *Except the part about a direct
lightning strike. * A direct lightning strike is mostly a red herring,
because even if the lightning bolt hit the service cable near the
building, it's highly unlikely that the path of all or even most of
the lightning is going to be through the service wire and into the
surge protector. * Far more likely, it will arc with most of the
energy finding ground outside the building before it ever gets to the
surge protector at the panel or meter.



* But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
joules?

Here;s where Tom likes to start arguing against strawmans and the rant
about plug-in surge protectors begins. * *The actual question was
about a whole house surge protector.



Tom does not know anything about surge protection so he is trying to
bluff his way through. he thinks he is appearing intelligent but most
readers can see through his misinformation. It is too bad that he
feels the need to rant about things he knows absolutely nothing
about. Perhaps he could make a more informed opinion on the type of
beer he is drinking.

westom wrote:

An effective surge protector means even the protector remains
functional. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps.
Direct lightning strikes are typically 20,000 amps. Yes, the
protector must be sized to even earth direct lightning strikes and
remain functional.

Lightning strikes can be far larger than 50,000A (but low percentage).
But a strike to a power line has multiple paths to earth. Investigations
have shown the largest lightning-caused surge with any reasonable
probability of occurring is 10,000A on an incoming power wire. The
50,000A suppressor rating can handle that. High ratings give long life.

The best information on surges and surge protection is in a guide from
the IEEE at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
(also posted by Howard and trader)
and a simpler guide from the NIST at:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf


Neither service panel or plug-in suppressors can reliably handle crossed
power lines. MOVs which can handle 10,000A for maybe 100 microseconds
are rapidly burned out by longer duration events. (These events are
probably the major cause of catastrophic MOV failures.)

I would not make my own suppressor attached to power lines (other than
fuse protected MOVs in equipment).

But somehow a magic box next to the appliance will absorb all those
joules? Always view the tech specs. Plug-in protectors rates at
hundreds of joules will somehow make hundreds of thousands just
disappear?

Poor w has to warp a thread about service panel suppressors to his
favorite topic - plug-in suppressors.
Trying to not repeat traders nice reply....

François Martzloff was the surge guru at the NIST and wrote the NIST
guide. He also wrote numerous published technical papers. One paper
looked at the energy absorbed in a MOV on a branch circuit. It was
surprisingly small - 35 Joules max. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 Joule or
less. That was with up to 10,000A coming in on the service wire. There
are a couple of reasons for that - I could elaborate if anyone is
interested.

Plug-in suppressors are only a "magic box" to w because he refuses to
understand how they work - clearly explained in the IEEE guide starting
pdf page 40. They work by CLAMPING (limiting) the voltage on all wires
(signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in
suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or absorbing). The guide
explains earthing occurs elsewhere.


According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
It is likely that much of equipment damage is from high voltages
between power and signal wires. This is illustrated in the IEEE guide
example starting pdf page 40.

A service panel suppressor can not limit the voltage between power and
signal wires. To do that, there has to be a *short* ground wire from the
telephone entrance protector to the earthing system near the power
service. Also for the cable entrance ground block (and dish....) With a
large surge current to earth, the "ground" at the building can rise
thousands of volts above "absolute ground". Much of the protection is
that power and phone and cable wires rise together. If short ground
wires can not be used (as in the IEEE guide example) the guide says "the
only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector."

For similar reasons, all protected equipment that is interconnected
needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor. External
connections, like phone, also need to go through the suppressor.
Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages
between power and signal wires.


The NIST describes plug-in protectors as "useless".

What does the NIST guide really say about plug-in suppressors?
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport
plug-in suppressor.

A protector
is only as effective as its earth ground

The required statement of religious belief in earthing.
Why aren't airplanes crashing daily when they get hit by lightning (or
do they drag an earthing chain)?

Often asked and never answered - simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why do your favorite manufacturers make plug-in suppressors?
- Why does favorite manufacturer SquareD say (for their service panel
suppressor) "electronic equipment may need additional protection by
installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use"?

And why can't you find a source that agrees with you that plug-in
suppressors are not effective?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides . Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

My wife is a big fan of the "Holmes on Homes" show (which is actually
pretty good). They go around fixing messes previous contractors have
made of house construction/renovation jobs. They regularly install whole
house surge arrestors on the breaker panels when they re-wire a place.

We've been thinking of getting one installed, so I did a little research.
Leviton seems to be the biggest vendor in the US. They have an
interesting dodge, which is a surge arrestor that goes in series with
electric meter, inside the metter housing. In my case, this is outside
of the house, which means if it turns into a fireball, it probably won't
do a lot of damage. I also like the idea of stopping the surge as early
in the wiring as possible.

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal..._50240-MSA.htm

I've got a query in to see if it will fit in just any old meter housing,
and how it compares with some of their breaker panel add-ons. Other than
having to deal with the electric company to replace the seal on the meter
housing, this thing looks like a snap (literally) to install. The cost of
the suppressor is about the same for either approach, but the electrician
should be able to install the meter version in considerably less than
half the time.

Doug White

On Mar 22, 7:31 pm, Doug White wrote:
We've been thinking of getting one installed, so I did a little research.
Leviton seems to be the biggest vendor in the US. They have an
interesting dodge, which is a surge arrestor that goes in series with
electric meter, inside the metter housing. In my case, this is outside
of the house, which means if it turns into a fireball, it probably won't
do a lot of damage.

That Belkin did what plug-in protectors do too often. Threaten
human life. Any protector that fails during a surge was ineffective -
grossly undersized for that surge. The Leviton and 'whole house'
protectors from so many other companies much earth a direct lightning
strike - and remain functional.

A direct lightning strike is typically 20,000 amps. Therefore the
minimally sized 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. 50,000 amps
without failure.

The most rare of surges is 100,000 amps. An IEEE paper demonstrates
what happens when that 100,000 lightning strike hits the utility power
wire. Maybe 40,000 amps attempts to enter the home. (the IEEE
picture assumes the 'primary' surge protection system is also properly
installed).

Only more responsible companies sell 'whole house' protectors. Not
in the list are APC, Tripplite, Belkin, and Monster. Companies that
sell protectors for real world protection include Leviton, Square D,
General Electric, Intermatic, Keison, and Siemens. An effective
Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than
$50.

And again, no protector is protection - despite what others have
posted. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always.
Either the protector makes an always required short (ie 'less than 10
foot') connection to earth ground. Or that surge will hunt for earth
ground destructively via appliances.

Bud has kindly provided the IEEE citation that shows same. See:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
On page 42 Figure 8 - the surge energy was permitted inside a
building. Since he was only using plug-in protectors, then the surge
found earth ground 8,000 volts destructively via the adjacent TV.
That is what protectors do. Earth a surge harmlessly outside the
building or destructively inside. Page 42 Figure 8 is only what that
Belkin can do.

All appliances already contain any protection that will work adjacent
to the appliance. Your concern is the rare surge that will overwhelm
internal appliance protection (ie my friend's 33,000 volt wire
dropping on local distribution). Any potentially destructive surge
earthed without entering a building will not go hunting 8000 volts
destructively via appliances - page 42 figure 8.

The only thing that makes a protector effective is its earth
ground. Therefore any money wasted on plug-in protectors is better
spent upgrading earth ground. Protection is always about where energy
dissipates - which is why earthing must meet and exceed post 1990
National Electrical code. Which is why informed homeowners upgrade
what dissipates energy harmlessly outside the building.

This is true of every protector. Why a 'whole house' protector is so
effective and why that Belkin does not even claim effective protection
in its specs. This: No earth ground means no effective protection.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Protection is
always about where that energy dissipates – earth ground.

Doug White wrote:

We've been thinking of getting one installed, so I did a little research.
Leviton seems to be the biggest vendor in the US. They have an
interesting dodge, which is a surge arrestor that goes in series with
electric meter, inside the metter housing. In my case, this is outside
of the house, which means if it turns into a fireball, it probably won't
do a lot of damage. I also like the idea of stopping the surge as early
in the wiring as possible.

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal..._50240-MSA.htm

You would, in all probability, have to have permission from the utility
to use it.

The clamp voltage is 800V. According to Martzloff (was the NIST surge
expert) equipment can withstand about 600-800V surges. The 800V rating
sounds way too high to me. (On the other hand, the 330V rating on most
suppressors may be lower than needed.) It is a "nominal" clamp voltage.
With a strong surge the voltage is forced upward from 800V.

If there is a strong surge, the path to earth is through the neutral
from meter can to service panel, through the required neutral-ground
bond (almost always in the service panel), and to the earthing
electrode. The voltage drop on the neutral will add to the clamp
voltage. A surge is a very short duration event, so the current
components are relatively high frequency, so the inductance of the wire
is more important than the resistance. See the discussion on lead length
in the IEEE guide starting pdf page 22. In effect you are adding the
neutral wire to the lead length.

I would rather have a suppressor where I have total control over it
(service panel).

Probability of catastrophic failure is very low. Martzloff has written
"in fact, the major cause of [suppressor] failures is a temporary
overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." A cause of
"Temporary overvoltage" would be crossed power wires, as elsewhere in
this thread.

--
bud--

Doug White wrote in
:

My wife is a big fan of the "Holmes on Homes" show (which is actually
pretty good). They go around fixing messes previous contractors have
made of house construction/renovation jobs. They regularly install
whole house surge arrestors on the breaker panels when they re-wire a
place.

We've been thinking of getting one installed, so I did a little
research. Leviton seems to be the biggest vendor in the US. They
have an interesting dodge, which is a surge arrestor that goes in
series with electric meter, inside the metter housing. In my case,
this is outside of the house, which means if it turns into a fireball,
it probably won't do a lot of damage. I also like the idea of
stopping the surge as early in the wiring as possible.

http://www.levitonproducts.com/catal..._50240-MSA.htm

I've got a query in to see if it will fit in just any old meter
housing, and how it compares with some of their breaker panel add-ons.
Other than having to deal with the electric company to replace the
seal on the meter housing, this thing looks like a snap (literally) to
install. The cost of the suppressor is about the same for either
approach, but the electrician should be able to install the meter
version in considerably less than half the time.

I finally got an installation manual from Leviton for the the meter
housing unit. It is only rated fror 200 amps IF it is installed in a
specific Murray housing. I went out and checked, and our housing isn't a
Murray. I also studied my meter, and it is one of the new electronic
remote read units. It fills up inside of the clear cover much more than
an old fashioned meter, and I doubt it would work with the Leviton even
if we had the right housing.

So, I'm back to finding a good unit to attach to the breaker panel. It's
too bad, because the earth ground has a more direct connection to the
meter box than to the breaker panel.

Doug White

In article ,
"Existential Angst" wrote:

Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? Holy ****.....

I have a few whole-house (well, whole branch circuit) UL-rated surge arrestors.
They are big (4" long by 2.25" diameter) plastic cans that attach to the main
breaker box, and are wired into the branch circuits that they protect. The cans
cost something like $50 each from the local electrical supply house, and are
made by an outfit in Texas. I have a pair of their Model 302 arrestors.

http://www.deltala.com/prod02.htm

The website doesn't work right for Safari or Firefox in MacOS, so it's probably
MSIE only. But you can make it work anyway, with fiddling and indirection.


Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? Connected to where? Each hot
to ground? Between hots? Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

They are not just capacitors, they are industrial-size metal-oxide varistors
plus capacitors.


If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

No.


Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? And which wires go thru it? Hot? Hot+return?

Probably ferrite EMI-supression "beads", which have no effect on
computer-smoking surges. Yes, it's hot+return.


Joe Gwinn

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? Connected to where? Each hot
to ground? Between hots? Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? And which wires go thru it? Hot? Hot+return?
Hi,
Whoa! At last EA is showing his true intelligence exposing his level of
ignorance. 'nuff said.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:47:51 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? Connected to where? Each hot
to ground? Between hots? Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? And which wires go thru it? Hot? Hot+return?


Here's a very good document on home protection written for the
non-electrically inclined-

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf

Pay particular attention to the section on GPR, there's a lot of
people in the industry who, while they may know about it
"intellectually", don't really think about it enough.

Suppressors don't just protect against lightening but also against
transient spikes on the power lines induced by heavy equipment etc.

How much protection you get depends on how much money you spend. The
cheaper MOV "little black box" units that Mr. Holme's electrician is
so in love with (he does do neat wiring, though ) are good for the
occasional spike, if you live in an area prone to lightening & you own
a lot of $$$ electronics you might want fork out for an industrial
strength unit-

http://www.transtector.com/ProductData?class=acph

but figure on ~$1000 for a top of the line one with SASD devices that
will stand up to the abuse.

H..

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:47:51 -0400, "Existential Angst"
wrote:


First Q: Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

A surge protecter/surge suppressor is one thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector
http://www.elect-spec.com/faqspike.htm
Spikes might be another.

Beware induced spikes on phone & data lines.
--
Cliff

On Mar 20, 9:47*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl --

On the main breaker box, for the whole house.

First Q: *Is surge protection strictly lightning-related?

Holmes on Homes was emphasizing this, saying $500 wasn't much for the
protection it affords.
$500?????????????? * * * Holy ****.....

Isn't surge protection just some capacitors?? *Connected to where? *Each hot
to ground? Between hots? *Values?
I have a ton of run/start caps, 20 to 100 uF, 370 V.

If you have surge protection on the mains, do you then need those itty-bitty
surge protectors fer yer pyooters?

Also, sometimes equipment will have an iron-like ring around a wire -- I
think in power supplies, mebbe surge protectors.
What is that ring doing? *And which wires go thru it? *Hot? *Hot+return?
--
EA

Ferrite rings are for EMI, so the buzz in the box stays there and not
in your radio or stereo. Switching power supplies can generate a
whole lot of hash and that's the type that's gradually replacing the
old-syle wall warts. The ring is acting as a choke for RF, also
generated by the computer itself. Different deal than surge
protection, but also needed these days.

Look up "surgistor" or MOV, that's what's in those surge protectors.
They're rated in joules, the amount of energy they can pass. The
higher, the better, and more costly they get. The better surge
protector strips will say how much energy they can handle on the
package. I assume the panel versions do the same. What none of the
ad copy says is that MOVs have a distinct lifespan. They WILL wear
out after snubbing "x" number of spikes and become useless. Some of
the power strip units tie the neon switch light to the MOVs. If no
light when switched on, the MOVs have expired and it's time for a new
strip. But nobody tells the consumer about it. So there's a whole
lot of dead protectors out there that are just power strips now.
Usually there's MOVs between ground and each supply wire and between
the supply wires. Not rocket science.

As far as lightning protection, they'll do part of that, up to the
energy rating. Which is why you need the tiered approach. Arrestors
on the line in, surge protectors on the panel and on each high-value
electronic item. My sister is always getting hits, they blow the
phones off the walls, but since she's gotten decent surge protectors,
those get fried instead of the computer or video equipment. They have
to be replaced, but she gets the sort with insurance attached, so not
that costly.

There are other approaches to surge and spike protection, an MG set is
pretty much immune to any such up to direct lightning strikes. A
ferro-resonant transformer used to be a big part of the innards of one
line of power conditioners, pretty much immune to spikes, but the
transformer itself was noisier than a whole switch yard. Had one in a
corner of the shop for a mini-computer, had to go outside to talk to
anyone. None of those will snub spikes on LAN, phone or video cables,
for that you have to go to power strips with built-in protection or
stand-alones.

Stan

On Mar 21, 12:41 pm, wrote:
As far as lightning protection, they'll do part of that, up to the
energy rating. Which is why you need the tiered approach.

In professional papers, tiering is not about protectors. Tiering is
about the only system component that dissipates the energy. Every
protection layer is defined by that component ALWAYS required in each
protection layer - the single point earth ground. The only item that
dissipates that energy. Every protection ‘tier’ is defined only by
the earth ground. Any protector without earthing does not ‘tiering’.

A residential 'whole house' protector is discussed. But that entire
protection “layer” is defined by what the protector connects to -
earth ground. Homeowners should also inspect their 'primary' surge
protection system. That is the other protection “layer”:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Protectors that do not even claim protection in their numeric specs
(ie that Belkin) will not discuss earthing. They hope you ‘assume’ a
protector magically makes energy disappear. The NIST (US government
research agency) citation provided by Bud is quite blunt about what an
effective protector must do:
You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

What happens if the protector does not make that short (ie 'less than
10 foot') connection to earth? That energy must dissipate
somewhere? Bud’s IEEE citation – page 42 Figure 8 – shows where that
energy dissipates: 8000 volts destructively via nearby appliances.
Either that energy is earthed. Or that energy will hunt for earth
ground inside the building destructively via appliances. Both IEEE
and NIST make that point.

I am being kind. I have only called them ineffective. NIST is
blunter about what a protector without earthing does:
A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work
by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world
can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

See those pictures of the Belkin posted elsewhere? It even
threatened human life. And the NIST also describes plug-in protectors
are useless:
... can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Only more responsible companies sell effective protectors. With an
always required, dedicated wire to make a short connection to earth.
Responsible companies including General Electric, Leviton, Intermatic,
Siemens, Square D, and even the Cutler-Hammer solution that sells in
Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. In every case, an effective
protector has a wire to dissipate energy harmlessly into earth. Plug-
in protectors do not – are not part of a ‘tiered’ solution. Without
earthing (ie plug-in protectors), "The best surge protection in the
world can be useless if grounding is not done properly." Could they
be any blunter? Protection is always about where energy dissipates.
Each protection layer is defined by what provides protection – the
single point earth ground.

Secondary protection is earthing at the service entrance. Primary
protection is earthing by the utility. Each protection layer is about
where energy dissipates – not by some high profit box that somehow
makes energy magically disappear.

westom wrote:
On Mar 21, 12:41 pm, wrote:
As far as lightning protection, they'll do part of that, up to the
energy rating. Which is why you need the tiered approach.

In professional papers, tiering is not about protectors.

From surge expert Martzloff:
"Whole house protection consists of a protective device at the service
entrance complemented by [plug-in surge suppressors] for sensitive
appliances [electronic equipment] within the house."
Kinda sounds like tiering to me.

Protectors that do not even claim protection in their numeric specs
(ie that Belkin)

Complete nonsense.

will not discuss earthing.

Because anyone with minimal intelligence can read in the IEEE guide that
plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing.

They hope you ‘assume’ a
protector magically makes energy disappear.

Only magic if your religious blinders prevent you from understanding how
suppressors work.

The NIST (US government
research agency) citation provided by Bud is quite blunt about what an
effective protector must do:

Ho-hum. w just repeats the same distortions. Repeating:
What does the NIST guide really say about plug-in suppressors?
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport
plug-in suppressor.

Bud’s IEEE citation – page 42 Figure 8 – shows where that
energy dissipates:

The lie repeated.

Responsible companies including General Electric, Leviton, Intermatic,
Siemens, Square D, and even the Cutler-Hammer solution that sells in
Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

Ho hum - 3rd repetition. Repeating:
Being responsible companies, all these manufacturers (except SquareD)
sell includes plug-in suppressors. And the $50 devices do not meet w's
minimum specs.

Plug-
in protectors do not – are not part of a ‘tiered’ solution.

Martzloff says they a
"Whole house protection consists of a protective device at the service
entrance complemented by [plug-in surge suppressors] for sensitive
[electronic equipment] within the house."

Each protection layer is defined by what provides protection – the
single point earth ground.

And the required religious mantra.
Still not explained - why aren't airplanes crashing daily when they get
hit by lightning (or do they drag an earthing chain)?

Still no link to another lunatic that agrees that plug-in suppressors
are NOT effective.

Still never answered - simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?
- Why do your favorite manufacturers make plug-in suppressors?
- Why does favorite manufacturer SquareD say (for their service panel
suppressor) "electronic equipment may need additional protection by
installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use"?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

wrote:

Ferrite rings are for EMI, so the buzz in the box stays there and not
in your radio or stereo. Switching power supplies can generate a
whole lot of hash and that's the type that's gradually replacing the
old-syle wall warts. The ring is acting as a choke for RF, also
generated by the computer itself. Different deal than surge
protection, but also needed these days.

Look up "surgistor" or MOV, that's what's in those surge protectors.
They're rated in joules, the amount of energy they can pass. The
higher, the better, and more costly they get. The better surge
protector strips will say how much energy they can handle on the
package. I assume the panel versions do the same.

There is (in the US) apparently no definition for how joules are
measured. As a result, some manufacturers measure jules in a deceptive
manner, which puts honest manufacturers at a disadvantage. As a result,
some good manufacturers are not providing joule ratings anymore. Instead
they give surge current ratings (which are comparable).

The IEEE guide warns against comparing devices based on joule ratings
unless the test method is the same. Too bad - I like joule ratings.

What none of the
ad copy says is that MOVs have a distinct lifespan. They WILL wear
out after snubbing "x" number of spikes and become useless.

Certainly can happen.

In my first post I quoted an investigation by Martzloff that found only
about 35J max at a plug-in suppressor with even the strongest surge that
can be reasonably expected on power wires. One reason is arc-over at the
service panel. The other is the impedance of branch circuit wiring. Both
are mentioned in other posts. If the branch circuit is very short -
outlet under the panel, the energy can be higher.

I recently bought a major brand plug-in suppressor (about $30) with
ratings of 590J and 30,000A per MOV, 1770J and 90,000A total. I don't
expect the suppressor will ever fail. The manufacturer apparently
doesn't either - there is a connected equipment warranty.

The current ratings, 30,000A, are in some ways odd - there is no way you
could get that current to the suppressor. It is higher than what will
come in on the service. But the high current ratings go along with the
high joule ratings.

The joule rating for a MOV is the single event energy hit the MOV can
take and be at the defined end of life (but still functional). If you
look at MOV ratings curves, you find that if the individual energy hits
are a small fraction of the rated energy, the cumulative energy rating
is far higher than the single event rating. If my 590J MOVs only see 35J
or far less events, the cumulative energy rating will be far over 590J -
another reason for connected equipment warranties.

High ratings are useful in the same way for service panel suppressors.

Some of
the power strip units tie the neon switch light to the MOVs. If no
light when switched on, the MOVs have expired and it's time for a new
strip. But nobody tells the consumer about it. So there's a whole
lot of dead protectors out there that are just power strips now.
Usually there's MOVs between ground and each supply wire and between
the supply wires. Not rocket science.

The normal failure mode for MOVs is to start to conduct at lower
voltages until they conduct at normal voltages and have thermal runaway.
Any suppressor you buy in the US should be listed under the appropriate
UL listing - 1449. UL1449 has required, since 1998, a thermal disconnect
for overheating MOVs.

For plug-in suppressors, the IEEE guide goes on at length about how the
protected load can be connected across the MOVs, and be disconnected
when they fail, or can be connected across the incoming line. In the
former case, the load is 'protected' even if the MOV fails. Another
reason why manufacturers can have protected equipment warranties.

As far as lightning protection, they'll do part of that, up to the
energy rating. Which is why you need the tiered approach. Arrestors
on the line in, surge protectors on the panel and on each high-value
electronic item.

A good idea, particularly in high risk areas. It is suggested by
Martzloff in another post.
Plug-in suppressors are particularly useful if the protected equipment
has both power and phone/cable connections - equipment that is
particularly at risk.

Note that all interconnected equipment has to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor and external wires (including phone and cable) have
to go through the suppressor. I think this is not as well understood as
it should be.

The max probable current on hot service wires is 10,000A. Service panel
suppressors with much higher ratings are readily available.

My sister is always getting hits, they blow the
phones off the walls, but since she's gotten decent surge protectors,
those get fried instead of the computer or video equipment. They have
to be replaced, but she gets the sort with insurance attached, so not
that costly.

Phones off the wall sounds odd. I would look at the phone entrance
protector and length of ground wires from phone and cable entrance
protectors to the ground at the power service. The entrance protector
and earthing should protect the phone (using US installation practice).
And look at earthing system?

There are other approaches to surge and spike protection, an MG set is
pretty much immune to any such up to direct lightning strikes. A
ferro-resonant transformer used to be a big part of the innards of one
line of power conditioners, pretty much immune to spikes, but the
transformer itself was noisier than a whole switch yard. Had one in a
corner of the shop for a mini-computer, had to go outside to talk to
anyone. None of those will snub spikes on LAN, phone or video cables,
for that you have to go to power strips with built-in protection or
stand-alones.

All good information.
Never been around a ferro-resonant transformer - interesting.

--
bud--

I have designed EMP protection for missile silos.
I have designed lightning protection for aircraft.
I have designed surge protection for aircraft.

I have not designed surge protection for households.

But once in a start up, I was testing the upper limit of the input
Voltage range for the switching powers supply I had designed for an
ultrasound cart.
I used a surge protector power strip as an extension chord.
I dialed up up the 60Hz AC to a couple hundred VAC.

If the surge protector worked for a while, I don't know.
But the stink of the smoke that came out of that surge protector had
to be smelled to be believed.

On Mar 22, 11:28*am, "
wrote:
*I have designed EMP protection for missile silos.
I have designed lightning protection for aircraft.
I have designed surge protection for aircraft.

I have not designed surge protection for households.

But once in a start up, I was testing the upper limit of the input
Voltage range for the switching powers supply I had designed for an
ultrasound cart.
I used a surge protector power strip as an extension chord.
I dialed up up the 60Hz AC to a couple hundred VAC.

If the surge protector worked for a while, I don't know.
But the stink of the smoke that came out of that surge protector had
to be smelled to be believed.

You needed a protector with larger smoke packets. Yours ran out too
soon!

Paul