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Old March 27th 07, 01:19 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?

Hi,

GFCI's have some surge protection built in to protect them from surges
in house wiring. Does this same surge protection extend a bit to
protect what is pluged into a GFCI? I guess this may be a dumb
question in that I know that there are surge supression receptacles
out there, but those ones cost about 2.5 times a GFCI receptacle. Can
I get a "cheap" surge supressor in installing a GFCI?

Best, mMike.


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Old March 27th 07, 03:48 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?

No!

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Old March 27th 07, 11:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?


wrote in message
oups.com...
No!


You need to elaborate!

Whole house surge protection worked for me. Also, I agree about the
additional point protection and what GFCIs do and don't do.

A simple "No" is not enough here, my friend.


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Old March 27th 07, 11:49 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?


"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...
No!


You need to elaborate!

Whole house surge protection worked for me. Also, I agree about the
additional point protection and what GFCIs do and don't do.

A simple "No" is not enough here, my friend.


Why? It was a simple Yes/No question.




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Old March 28th 07, 12:59 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?


"Noozer" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...
No!


You need to elaborate!

Whole house surge protection worked for me. Also, I agree about the
additional point protection and what GFCIs do and don't do.

A simple "No" is not enough here, my friend.


Why? It was a simple Yes/No question.


Because "No" is often an absolute negative or a rebuke or a snotty response
or disciplinary.

If I ask you to lend me money, "No" is an acceptable response.

If I ask, a group, about a fairly complex issue, "No" all by itself is
meaningless as a response and as a response to a response, it is poor
behavior.


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Old March 28th 07, 04:20 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?

On Mar 27, 7:19 am, wrote:
GFCI's have some surge protection built in to protect them from surges
in house wiring. Does this same surge protection extend a bit to
protect what is pluged into a GFCI?


All electronic devices contain surge protection. As even shown in
the National Semiconductor application note for their GFCI chip, that
protector is only for one type of surge, very small, and for
protecting GFCI's internal electronics. Protection from which type of
surge? All electronics contain protection that makes that type of
surge irrelevant.

Typically destructive surge seeks earth ground. Surge that
typically does damage is earthed before getting near to household
appliances or GFCI. No protector adjacent to an appliance (or GFCI)
will provide such protection. Anything that would work already exists
inside the appliance (as even defined by industry standards). Worse,
those other surges may pass through appliances destructively to earth
if protector is too close to electronics.

Any protection inside the receptacle 1) is already solved inside the
appliance, 2) is too close to transistors. 3) too far from earth
ground, and 4) is really for surges that don't typically do the
damage.

Learn what telcos do; with $multi-million computers connected to
overhead wires all over town. Telcos also don't use plug-in (useless
'point of use') protectors. Why waste money? Telcos also install
protectors where wires enter the building; connected within feet to
earth ground. How do telcos make protection even better? Money is
directed where protection is made even better - the earthing system.

A protector is not protection. Earthing is the protection. A
protector is a connecting device to protection. What defines the
quality of that protection? How good is the earthing.

Meanwhile, why would a protector inside a receptacle be any safer
than other plug-in protectors? View current technology protectors
that are located where fire danger is greater:
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/programs...tectorfire.htm

Do you want this device in a room or inside a plastic wall box?

Learn what the telco also wants and needs to protect their
transistors. Protector must be adjacent to earthing AND protector
must be distant from those transistors. How distant? Up to 50 meters
distant because separation is also part of the protection - and a
short connection to earth is essential.

Those promoting plug-in protectors must promote half truths. That
troll who will arrive to promote for the plug-in industry (and deny
it) will be along soon. Meanwhile, protection is about earthing. No
way around reality. Even the IEEE demands earthing, bluntly, in
standards. Protector in that GFCI makes a trivial type of surge
irrelevant. But it does not even claim to protect from the typically
destructive type of surge.

Protection inside all appliances can be overwhelmed if the 'whole
house' protector is not installed and properly earthed. That same
internal protection has been overwhelmed because an adjacent protector
existed. It's always the same question. What was the path a surge
took to earth ground. That is the path of damage - or why the surge
never entered the building. Provides are the 'whys' that some ignore
to promote myths and, well, look at those scary pictures of protectors
that meet current standards - and nobody asked anything more.



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Old March 28th 07, 09:28 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?

w_tom wrote:
On Mar 27, 7:19 am, wrote:

GFCI's have some surge protection built in to protect them from surges
in house wiring. Does this same surge protection extend a bit to
protect what is pluged into a GFCI?



For accurate information on surges and surge protection try:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC
power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the
IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers
in the US).

And:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency formerly
called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public to
explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background.


Typically destructive surge seeks earth ground. Surge that
typically does damage is earthed before getting near to household
appliances or GFCI. No protector adjacent to an appliance (or GFCI)
will provide such protection.


Bullcrap. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are
effective.


Anything that would work already exists
inside the appliance (as even defined by industry standards). Worse,
those other surges may pass through appliances destructively to earth
if protector is too close to electronics.


Bullcrap. The IEEE guide shows 2 examples of surge suppression. Both use
plug-in suppressors.


A protector is not protection. Earthing is the protection. A
protector is a connecting device to protection. What defines the
quality of that protection? How good is the earthing.


This religious belief in earthing is not shared by the IEEE for plug-in
suppressors. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by
CLAMPING the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the
suppressor. They do not work primarily by eathing. Because that violates
w_'s religious belief in earthing he can't understand the guide.


View current technology protectors
that are located where fire danger is greater:


With no technical arguments try scare tactics

http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/programs...tectorfire.htm


For anyone with minimal reading skills the hanford link talks about
"some older model" power strips and specifically references the revised
UL standard, effective 1998, that requires a thermal disconnect as a
fix for overheating MOVs. Overheating was fixed in 1998.

And w_ is dishonest when he says these are "current technology
protectors". As noted above, his own link said the problem was fixed in
1998. None of the links say there is a problem with current suppressors.
None of the links even say the damaged suppressors had a UL label.


Protector must be adjacent to earthing AND protector
must be distant from those transistors. How distant? Up to 50 meters
distant because separation is also part of the protection - and a
short connection to earth is essential.


The religious belief in earthing #2. The guides contradict everything in
this paragraph.


Those promoting plug-in protectors must promote half truths.


Those promoting plug-in suppressors include the IEEE and NIST.

That
troll who will arrive to promote for the plug-in industry (and deny
it) will be along soon.


The troll has already arrived. w_, being evangelical in his belief in
earthing, searches google groups for "surge" to paste in his religious
tract to convert the heathens. Everyone else here is a regular
contributor to this newsgroup.


Meanwhile, protection is about earthing. No
way around reality. Even the IEEE demands earthing, bluntly, in
standards.


Religious belief in earthing #3.

And the IEEE guide was published by the IEEE. The IEEE guide says
plug-in suppressors are effective.



Provides are the 'whys' that some ignore
to promote myths and, well, look at those scary pictures of protectors
that meet current standards


The lie repeated.


For reliable information on surge protection read the IEEE and/or NIST
guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

And as always, w_ can't find a link that says plug-in suppressors are
NOT effective. All you get are his opinions based on his religious
belief in earthing.

--
bud--




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Old March 28th 07, 08:00 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Does as GFCI give you some surge protection?

Bud-- wrote:
This religious belief in earthing is not shared by the IEEE for plug-in
suppressors. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by
CLAMPING the voltage on all wires to the common ground at the
suppressor. They do not work primarily by eathing. Because that violates
w_'s religious belief in earthing he can't understand the guide.


So you get a good surge from nearby lightning, and the three wires on your
computer's power plug all go to a common-mode voltage plus or minus line
voltage. But your ground is bad, so you have a common-mode voltage about
4,000 volts above earth ground.

And you're touching the computer, or you have a telephone line plugged
into it, or an Ethernet wire from another location, or somehow have
one of many other possible and even likely scenarios in which the other
end of the person/line is grounded fairly well. 4,000 volts on one end
and ground on the other... bring the weenies and marshmallows.

Not all the protection is meant for the device plugged into the strip.

--
Pork: It's the other white flag!
-- James Lileks


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