Can I stick ceramic (floor) tiles directly onto plywood or OSB? I'm a
little tight for clearance on a potential project (at least if I use 3/4"
for the subfloor, and I worry that anything less will flex too much and
crack the tiles*) so it'd be nice not to have to use backerboard if I
don't have to.

* same with the underlying frame; I'd rather use 2x6" than 2x4" even
though the latter would give me lots more height to work with.

cheers

Jules

Jules Richardson wrote:
Can I stick ceramic (floor) tiles directly onto plywood or OSB? I'm a
little tight for clearance on a potential project (at least if I use
3/4" for the subfloor, and I worry that anything less will flex too
much and crack the tiles*) so it'd be nice not to have to use
backerboard if I don't have to.

* same with the underlying frame; I'd rather use 2x6" than 2x4" even
though the latter would give me lots more height to work with.

cheers

Jules

google is your friend

http://www.google.com/search?q=can+i+tile+on+plywood

2nd link: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...php/t-537.html

On Mar 11, 3:30*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
Can I stick ceramic (floor) tiles directly onto plywood or OSB? I'm a
little tight for clearance on a potential project (at least if I use 3/4"
for the subfloor, and I worry that anything less will flex too much and
crack the tiles*) so it'd be nice not to have to use backerboard if I
don't have to.

* same with the underlying frame; I'd rather use 2x6" than 2x4" even
though the latter would give me lots more height to work with.

cheers

Jules

You can. But it's hard to keep the flex down enough with just 3/4 ply
or osb on 16" centers. That's part of why you add backer board. If
it's a bath then the backer board also gives you extra water
protection.

You mean 2x6 floor joists? What are you spanning with those? Again
sounds like you might have a flex issue. Floor need to be rock solid
for tile or your grout will be cracking out.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:45:33 -0800, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Mar 11, 3:30Â*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
Can I stick ceramic (floor) tiles directly onto plywood or OSB? I'm a
little tight for clearance on a potential project (at least if I use
3/4" for the subfloor, and I worry that anything less will flex too
much and crack the tiles*) so it'd be nice not to have to use
backerboard if I don't have to.

* same with the underlying frame; I'd rather use 2x6" than 2x4" even
though the latter would give me lots more height to work with.

cheers

Jules

You can. But it's hard to keep the flex down enough with just 3/4 ply
or osb on 16" centers. That's part of why you add backer board.

Yes, that's what I was worried about; I'd seen comments before that it
can be done, but the bond isn't as good and the pros hate it - but I
figured some group wisdom couldn't hurt :-)

You mean 2x6 floor joists? What are you spanning with those? Again
sounds like you might have a flex issue. Floor need to be rock solid
for tile or your grout will be cracking out.

It's not as bad as it sounds - I'm just doing this to raise the floor
level in our back porch so that it's level with every other room in the
house (and will give enough height to eventually build a deck outside).
The existing porch floor is concrete slab, so I can support the floor
joists at quite small intervals (I'm thinking every 2' would probably
do); I'm not expecting them to span several feet or anything.

Total height difference between concrete floor and the floor in the
adjacent room is 7" (minimum, it drops another 1/8" or so in places due
to slight variations in the underlying slab). I'd lose 5-1/2" of that to
the joists and 3/4" to the OSB or ply layer, and I want a 1/4" air gap
beneath (and probably plastic sheet as moisture barrier just to be safe,
although the room's dry and the concrete doesn't appear to sweat).

Ceramic tiles on top of all that will probably be 1/4", which gives me
1/4" left for the adhesive layer - in other words, I'd really need to
magic up another 1/4" - 1/2" to accomodate backerboard too (unless I use
thinner OSB / Ply, but then I'd be worrying about flex issues again)

The only other option* would be to go to something less than 2x6" for the
joists - which might be OK, given that it can be regularly supported by
the slab below, but it still "feels wrong" :-)

* other than just using plain old vinyl tiles rather than ceramic ones,
which would be a last-resort solution (I wouldn't want 'em in the front
porch, but as it's a back room usually inhabited by the pets it wouldn't
be the end of the world or anything)

cheers

Jules

On Mar 11, 4:49*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:45:33 -0800, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Mar 11, 3:30*pm, Jules Richardson
wrote:
Can I stick ceramic (floor) tiles directly onto plywood or OSB? I'm a
little tight for clearance on a potential project (at least if I use
3/4" for the subfloor, and I worry that anything less will flex too
much and crack the tiles*) so it'd be nice not to have to use
backerboard if I don't have to.

* same with the underlying frame; I'd rather use 2x6" than 2x4" even
though the latter would give me lots more height to work with.

cheers

Jules

You can. *But it's hard to keep the flex down enough with just 3/4 ply
or osb on 16" centers. *That's part of why you add backer board.

Yes, that's what I was worried about; I'd seen comments before that it
can be done, but the bond isn't as good and the pros hate it - but I
figured some group wisdom couldn't hurt :-)

You mean 2x6 floor joists? *What are you spanning with those? *Again
sounds like you might have a flex issue. *Floor need to be rock solid
for tile or your grout will be cracking out.

It's not as bad as it sounds - I'm just doing this to raise the floor
level in our back porch so that it's level with every other room in the
house (and will give enough height to eventually build a deck outside).
The existing porch floor is concrete slab, so I can support the floor
joists at quite small intervals (I'm thinking every 2' would probably
do); I'm not expecting them to span several feet or anything.

Total height difference between concrete floor and the floor in the
adjacent room is 7" (minimum, it drops another 1/8" or so in places due
to slight variations in the underlying slab). I'd lose 5-1/2" of that to
the joists and 3/4" to the OSB or ply layer, and I want a 1/4" air gap
beneath (and probably plastic sheet as moisture barrier just to be safe,
although the room's dry and the concrete doesn't appear to sweat).

Ceramic tiles on top of all that will probably be 1/4", which gives me
1/4" left for the adhesive layer - in other words, I'd really need to
magic up another 1/4" - 1/2" to accomodate backerboard too (unless I use
thinner OSB / Ply, but then I'd be worrying about flex issues again)

The only other option* would be to go to something less than 2x6" for the
joists - which might be OK, given that it can be regularly supported by
the slab below, but it still "feels wrong" :-)

* other than just using plain old vinyl tiles rather than ceramic ones,
which would be a last-resort solution (I wouldn't want 'em in the front
porch, but as it's a back room usually inhabited by the pets it wouldn't
be the end of the world or anything)

cheers

Jules- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You need to use pt lumber where it contacts the concrete. I would
frame directly on top of the concrete. A plastic moisture barrier is
fine if you beleive there is not one under the concrete. It is common
these days to have a moisture barrier under concrete but if yours is
older that might not be the case. I would still use pt lumber even
with the plastic. If you use 2x6 that is really 5 1/2 so you are left
with 1 1/2 inches. A 3/4 ply plus another 1/2" or so for tile and
mortar brings you close. I assume there is a door transom between the
two rooms so exact matching is not needed. I would frame 12" on
center instead of 16" to place the tile directly on the 3/4 subfloor.
2x6's are cheap. Insulate to keep the floor from being cold. You can
use regular motar to adhere tile to plywood. Upgrade a bit to get one
of the poly blends but you don't need to go whole hog with the top
dollar stuff.

I tiled directly to ply in our sunroom 7 years ago and have not had a
single problem. I used 1/2 ply on top of the 3/4 subfloor. On big
rooms it is a lot of work to put down backer board. Ply is bigger and
goes down faster. Use construction adhesive between layers of ply and
a bunch of screws.

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:40:34 -0800, jamesgangnc wrote:
You need to use pt lumber where it contacts the concrete.

Yeah, good call on that - I think when I roughly priced things up last
year it was for 2x6" PT (decided to wait until the weather got warmer - I
didn't feel like fitting a new exterior door in -30 temps :-)

A plastic moisture barrier is fine if you beleive there is not one
under the concrete.

I can't see an obvious one, but the concrete doesn't seem to allow
anything through - but I don't believe it's expensive to lay one down, so
I may as well just in case.

If you use 2x6 that is really 5 1/2 so you are left with 1 1/2
inches. A 3/4 ply plus another 1/2" or so for tile and mortar brings
you close.

Yep, it's pretty tight. I'm not sure what common practice is for framing
direct onto concrete, given that there's some very slight variation in
the concrete surface; do folk normally put a little cement down (and fit
the frame before it's dry) to pick up the slack, or it is possible to buy
some kind of flat shim for that purpose? I think I'm looking at about
1/8" max variation in the concrete height, so need something if I'm going
to put the frame down directly on top of it.

I assume there is a door transom between the two rooms so
exact matching is not needed.

The porch must have been added much later, so there's actually what would
be once been the rear step for the house between the two rooms. That
means I can be out height-wise by 1/4" or so without it looking (or
feeling) strange, although obviously I'd like to get the heights between
the two as close as I can get.

I would frame 12" on center instead of 16" to place the tile directly
on the 3/4 subfloor.

Yeah, good idea. I was going to go with 16" only because I have some 16"
insulation rolls already, but I've got a later project in mind that can
always use those, so I wouldn't be wasting anything.

The porch isn't big at all, around 7x8', so it's not going to be a
particularly expensive job.

thanks for the tips!

Jules

On 2010-03-11, Jules Richardson wrote:

It's not as bad as it sounds - I'm just doing this to raise the floor
level in our back porch so that it's level with every other room in the
house (and will give enough height to eventually build a deck outside).
The existing porch floor is concrete slab, so I can support the floor
joists at quite small intervals (I'm thinking every 2' would probably
do); I'm not expecting them to span several feet or anything.

Total height difference between concrete floor and the floor in the
adjacent room is 7" (minimum, it drops another 1/8" or so in places due
to slight variations in the underlying slab).

OK, so you want to raise your porch floor about 6" or so. A couple
comments:

With support every 2', a 2x4 is more than adequate for the job. [For
a distributed load, this has the equivalent angular deflection to, for
example, a 10.5" tall member spanning 6'.] You could also just
continuously support the joist on the slab.

For rigidity of the subfloor, go with thicker plywood, like 1 1/8".
This is over three times as rigid as 3/4" plywood (1.5^3). This saves
you from the trouble of having to laminate multiple layers of thinner
plywood. Then use 1/4" backerboard just as a tile base, not to
stiffen the floor.

So your buildup is then: 3.5" joist, 1 1/8" plywood, 1/4" backerboard,
and say 1/2" for tile and thinset. That makes 5 3/8" height. If you
want it higher, you can screw some 1x PT blocks to the underside of
the 2x4s every foot or so (use stainless steels screws), providing an
airgap. That would get you to 6 1/8" height. Or you could just use
2x6 PT lumber and rip it to whatever width you want, just be sure to
put the ripped edge up, since the treatment doesn't always fully
penetrate the member.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Wayne

On Mar 12, 11:23*am, Jules Richardson
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:40:34 -0800, jamesgangnc wrote:
You need to use pt lumber where it contacts the concrete.

Yeah, good call on that - I think when I roughly priced things up last
year it was for 2x6" PT (decided to wait until the weather got warmer - I
didn't feel like fitting a new exterior door in -30 temps :-)

A plastic moisture barrier is fine if you beleive there is not one
under the concrete.

I can't see an obvious one, but the concrete doesn't seem to allow
anything through - but I don't believe it's expensive to lay one down, so
I may as well just in case.

If you use 2x6 that is really 5 1/2 so you are left with 1 1/2
inches. *A 3/4 ply plus another 1/2" or so for tile and mortar brings
you close. *

Yep, it's pretty tight. I'm not sure what common practice is for framing
direct onto concrete, given that there's some very slight variation in
the concrete surface; do folk normally put a little cement down (and fit
the frame before it's dry) to pick up the slack, or it is possible to buy
some kind of flat shim for that purpose? I think I'm looking at about
1/8" max variation in the concrete height, so need something if I'm going
to put the frame down directly on top of it.

I assume there is a door transom between the two rooms so
exact matching is not needed.

The porch must have been added much later, so there's actually what would
be once been the rear step for the house between the two rooms. That
means I can be out height-wise by 1/4" or so without it looking (or
feeling) strange, although obviously I'd like to get the heights between
the two as close as I can get.

I would frame 12" on center instead of 16" to place the tile directly
on the 3/4 subfloor.

Yeah, good idea. I was going to go with 16" only because I have some 16"
insulation rolls already, but I've got a later project in mind that can
always use those, so I wouldn't be wasting anything.

The porch isn't big at all, around 7x8', so it's not going to be a
particularly expensive job.

thanks for the tips!

Jules

I'm not sure what the best answer is for leveling your concrete.
Generally 1/8" is not much variation and it might not matter. They
make leveling compounds that probably adhere to concrete. I'm not
sure about using motar as it would be thin and you would be putting a
lot of pressure on small areas where the 2x6's sit.

You could put some strips of pt 2x4 wide side down along the inside
perimeter, nail them to the frame and the powder nail them to the
concrete. Are you framing walls on top of this floor frame? That
will put some weight down on it. Will you be able to attach the edge
adjacent to the house to existing floor framing?

I would build it all and make sure it had all settled before tiling.