I will soon have my addition construction drawing from an architect.
The architect does not do HVAC drawings, he mentioned I need to find
(he has some he can recommend) HVAC contractors who can do HVAC
drawings based on his plan. These HVAC drawing and then “fed’ into his
construction drawings which then become integral completed blueprints.

Once I have HVAC drawings I need to decide how to install all HVAC
stuff (forced air furnace, A/C, condenser, ducts). I expect it will
be quite expensive. I am trying to stretch my small budget and see if
any of HVAC work I can do myself and if it makes sense and can save me
money at the end. Does anyone have any suggestion regarding what I can
reasonably do to cut the addition HVAC work? I am handy, have
extensive remodeling experience but no HVAC experience. I probably
won’t be able to install furnace and A/C but can I install ducts? Will
I be able to save money this way? Any advise would be appreciated.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do, and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:57:27 -0800 (PST), jamesgangnc
wrote:

Minisplits are an expensive way to get ac. They cost 2 to 3 times
what a conventional split system costs per ton just for the
equipment. I do my on hvac work but I don't always recomend that
others do it. Occasionally it can be costly to learn something when
you have to do it over. At the risk of getting the irk of some pros
that lurk here, get some estimates. Follow them around while they do
it and try to get as much info about what they propose to do. You can
use that to do some of it yourself. Installing ducts is pretty easy
if you are usng flexduct.

Mini splits are expensive to install but the ability to zone the
cooling may make your payback period pretty short.

Depending on the length of the cooling season.
But indeed, the zoning is Da Bomb.
I don't know how much heat pumps save over oil or gas, but whatever savings
there are would help as well during the heating season..

They are also easier on the wiring than a central air compressor, and would
lower demand charges, if such exist for residences.

What brand/type did you install? Did you measure the power consumption?

I was going to do two 12K btu units, but the mitsubishi/fujitsu price came
in at $5K for the pair, and it turned out that installation in these two
particular locations was not quite the slam-dunk I thought it would be.
So I passed on it for this year, will look at cheaper units, maybe that
Amcoraire unit. I'm wary of internet stuff, tho.
--
EA



If you only run the rooms you use. I have a central system but we only
run the mini in the bedroom when we go to bed.
That way my wife can have the 70 she likes to sleep without cooling
the whole house.
I also have a mini in a new addition we only cool when people are
sleeping over. It is open to the screen cage most of the time.

On Dec 16, 12:36*pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do, and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

On Dec 16, 3:14*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:





On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do, and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

A lot depends on what kind of ducts you run. When I lived up north I
installed metal myself but I did have a fishing buddy that hooked me
up with the fabricator so it was just putting them in. All of the
drops were run with round pipe and that just snaps together. The ducts
themselves needed the lips bent over and the S Slips and drive flanges
driven in. It was really pretty easy. A wrap of silver tape sealed
everything up. The trick is getting a decent price from a fabricator.
They are a pretty closed community. A lot won't even talk to you if
you are not in the trade. Ever been to alt.HVAC? *;-)
If you use duct board and flex duct, you need the tool to cut the
angles in the duct board without breaking the foil. use silver tape,
(not "duct tape") and get a plastic wiper doodad to seal the tape
down. The HVAC supplier usually gives them away.
Keep your flex straight and pulled pretty tight so it doesn't have a
lot of ridges to slow the air flow. Some say it is best to run it on
1x running boards where it crosses truss chords to give yourself a
flat surface. Seal all the joints with mastic when you are done.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not going to use flex ducts, only straight metal ducts. I believe
all ducts components (round ducts, elbows, registers, etc.) are
available from big home centers. I have experience snapping them
together and I nkow how to seal joints with aluminum tape and furnice
cement.

That were me with the Amcoraire. When I bought it, I roughly figured 3 years
to amorize it. Now, it's gonna pay for itself in less than 2 years. I have
a 12K microprocessor controlled version with a seer of 18. Central unit (old
(for around here)) has a seer of 8 or 9. I plugged the Amcoraire into my
Kill-a-watt for a couple of days (summer time). In 55 hours it used
6.8KWH!!!!! My honey and I like it cold in the bedroom. I have the "setback
thermostat" set the house to 79 at 2300. I set the bedroom a/c (gotta love
those zones) to 69 degrees. If I build another house, it will have several
of these mini-splits (they are heats pumps also). Also one outside unit can
run two inside units. The only wart I have found so far is this: the fan
does't run all the time during the heat phase.

"ls02" wrote in message
...
On Dec 16, 3:14 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:





On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that
already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot
water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do,
and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

A lot depends on what kind of ducts you run. When I lived up north I
installed metal myself but I did have a fishing buddy that hooked me
up with the fabricator so it was just putting them in. All of the
drops were run with round pipe and that just snaps together. The ducts
themselves needed the lips bent over and the S Slips and drive flanges
driven in. It was really pretty easy. A wrap of silver tape sealed
everything up. The trick is getting a decent price from a fabricator.
They are a pretty closed community. A lot won't even talk to you if
you are not in the trade. Ever been to alt.HVAC? ;-)
If you use duct board and flex duct, you need the tool to cut the
angles in the duct board without breaking the foil. use silver tape,
(not "duct tape") and get a plastic wiper doodad to seal the tape
down. The HVAC supplier usually gives them away.
Keep your flex straight and pulled pretty tight so it doesn't have a
lot of ridges to slow the air flow. Some say it is best to run it on
1x running boards where it crosses truss chords to give yourself a
flat surface. Seal all the joints with mastic when you are done.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not going to use flex ducts, only straight metal ducts. I believe
all ducts components (round ducts, elbows, registers, etc.) are
available from big home centers. I have experience snapping them
together and I nkow how to seal joints with aluminum tape and furnice
cement.

"lost" wrote in message
...
That were me with the Amcoraire. When I bought it, I roughly figured 3
years to amorize it. Now, it's gonna pay for itself in less than 2 years.
I have a 12K microprocessor controlled version with a seer of 18. Central
unit (old (for around here)) has a seer of 8 or 9. I plugged the Amcoraire
into my Kill-a-watt for a couple of days (summer time). In 55 hours it
used 6.8KWH!!!!! My honey and I like it cold in the bedroom. I have the
"setback thermostat" set the house to 79 at 2300. I set the bedroom a/c
(gotta love those zones) to 69 degrees. If I build another house, it will
have several of these mini-splits (they are heats pumps also). Also one
outside unit can run two inside units. The only wart I have found so far
is this: the fan does't run all the time during the heat phase.

Hey, good you popped up! Yeah, I often cite your older post in the useless
alt.hvac.

6.8 kWhrs for 55 running hours? Or cycling on and off for 55 hours?

Is your unit 120 or 220V?

You cited 500 W at full load. Another poster here cited 10-12 amps at 120
V.
If yours is running at 220-240 V, both would be in the same ballpark. If
yours is running at 120, then there is a big big diff!

What does your killawatt read when you first turn it on, and how does it
ramp down, current wise?
--
EA




"ls02" wrote in message
...
On Dec 16, 3:14 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:





On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that
already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot
water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do,
and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

A lot depends on what kind of ducts you run. When I lived up north I
installed metal myself but I did have a fishing buddy that hooked me
up with the fabricator so it was just putting them in. All of the
drops were run with round pipe and that just snaps together. The ducts
themselves needed the lips bent over and the S Slips and drive flanges
driven in. It was really pretty easy. A wrap of silver tape sealed
everything up. The trick is getting a decent price from a fabricator.
They are a pretty closed community. A lot won't even talk to you if
you are not in the trade. Ever been to alt.HVAC? ;-)
If you use duct board and flex duct, you need the tool to cut the
angles in the duct board without breaking the foil. use silver tape,
(not "duct tape") and get a plastic wiper doodad to seal the tape
down. The HVAC supplier usually gives them away.
Keep your flex straight and pulled pretty tight so it doesn't have a
lot of ridges to slow the air flow. Some say it is best to run it on
1x running boards where it crosses truss chords to give yourself a
flat surface. Seal all the joints with mastic when you are done.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not going to use flex ducts, only straight metal ducts. I believe
all ducts components (round ducts, elbows, registers, etc.) are
available from big home centers. I have experience snapping them
together and I nkow how to seal joints with aluminum tape and furnice
cement.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:18:03 -0800, ls02 wrote:
I am not going to use flex ducts, only straight metal ducts. I believe
all ducts components (round ducts, elbows, registers, etc.) are
available from big home centers.

Yeah, they are - but I bought a couple of runs of 6" duct from HD
once (the rest I needed came from my local Restore place) and of the whole
pile there I got the only good two that weren't badly damaged (and even
then one of those was a real pain in the butt to snap together)

I think I prefer rectangular duct - it's a lot easier to work with,
particularly if doing anything custom, and takes up less space (because
for a given cross-sectional area a round duct takes up more useful
space)

cheers

Jules

Please be sure to consult with the HVAC installer. Some of
them get very upset with home owners who are trying to save
a buck. They like to do the whole package. Yours may not be
as easily upsettable.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"ls02" wrote in message
...
I will soon have my addition construction drawing from an
architect.
The architect does not do HVAC drawings, he mentioned I need
to find
(he has some he can recommend) HVAC contractors who can do
HVAC
drawings based on his plan. These HVAC drawing and then
"fed' into his
construction drawings which then become integral completed
blueprints.

Once I have HVAC drawings I need to decide how to install
all HVAC
stuff (forced air furnace, A/C, condenser, ducts). I expect
it will
be quite expensive. I am trying to stretch my small budget
and see if
any of HVAC work I can do myself and if it makes sense and
can save me
money at the end. Does anyone have any suggestion regarding
what I can
reasonably do to cut the addition HVAC work? I am handy,
have
extensive remodeling experience but no HVAC experience. I
probably
won't be able to install furnace and A/C but can I install
ducts? Will
I be able to save money this way? Any advise would be
appreciated.

If you look at a portrait of the Mona Lisa, will you know if
you can paint?

I'm not sure looking at finished ducts tells if you can
install duct.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800 (PST), ls02

wrote:


Ask some friends if you can poke around in their houses to
see what
their HVAC system looks like. Then you will know if it looks
like
something you could do.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:17:54 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

If you look at a portrait of the Mona Lisa, will you know if
you can paint?

I'm not sure looking at finished ducts tells if you can
install duct.

Well, I know it wouldn't help you. But, that's okay, because I'm not
talking to you. The guy my advice was directed towards is smart. He
probably has a rough idea of what his skill level is, and seeing what
the stuff looks like may be a big help.

On Dec 16, 4:13*pm, "lost" wrote:
That were me with the Amcoraire. When I bought it, I roughly figured 3 years
to amorize it. Now, it's gonna pay for itself *in less than 2 years. I have
a 12K microprocessor controlled version with a seer of 18. Central unit (old
(for around here)) has a seer of 8 or 9. I plugged the Amcoraire into my
Kill-a-watt for a couple of days (summer time). In 55 hours it used
6.8KWH!!!!! My honey and I like it cold in the bedroom. I have the "setback
thermostat" set the house to 79 at 2300. I set the bedroom a/c (gotta love
those zones) to 69 degrees. If I build another house, it will have several
of these mini-splits (they are heats pumps also). Also one outside unit can
run two inside units. The only wart I have found so far is this: the fan
does't run all the time during the heat phase.

"ls02" wrote in message

...
On Dec 16, 3:14 pm, wrote:





On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:

On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that
already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot
water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do,
and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

A lot depends on what kind of ducts you run. When I lived up north I
installed metal myself but I did have a fishing buddy that hooked me
up with the fabricator so it was just putting them in. All of the
drops were run with round pipe and that just snaps together. The ducts
themselves needed the lips bent over and the S Slips and drive flanges
driven in. It was really pretty easy. A wrap of silver tape sealed
everything up. The trick is getting a decent price from a fabricator.
They are a pretty closed community. A lot won't even talk to you if
you are not in the trade. Ever been to alt.HVAC? ;-)
If you use duct board and flex duct, you need the tool to cut the
angles in the duct board without breaking the foil. use silver tape,
(not "duct tape") and get a plastic wiper doodad to seal the tape
down. The HVAC supplier usually gives them away.
Keep your flex straight and pulled pretty tight so it doesn't have a
lot of ridges to slow the air flow. Some say it is best to run it on
1x running boards where it crosses truss chords to give yourself a
flat surface. Seal all the joints with mastic when you are done.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not going to use flex ducts, only straight metal ducts. I believe
all ducts components (round ducts, elbows, registers, etc.) are
available from big home centers. I have experience snapping them
together and I nkow how to seal joints with aluminum tape and furnice
cement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Insulated metal ducts are not available at any big box store I've been
to. Just ends. Just about all installations these days use
flexduct. It is far faster to install, lighter, and because you do
not have as many junctions you have less risk of leaks.

You ask an installer to use all rectagular metal duct instead of flex
and your quote will be thousands higher.

On Dec 17, 11:37*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Dec 16, 4:13*pm, "lost" wrote:





That were me with the Amcoraire. When I bought it, I roughly figured 3 years
to amorize it. Now, it's gonna pay for itself *in less than 2 years. I have
a 12K microprocessor controlled version with a seer of 18. Central unit (old
(for around here)) has a seer of 8 or 9. I plugged the Amcoraire into my
Kill-a-watt for a couple of days (summer time). In 55 hours it used
6.8KWH!!!!! My honey and I like it cold in the bedroom. I have the "setback
thermostat" set the house to 79 at 2300. I set the bedroom a/c (gotta love
those zones) to 69 degrees. If I build another house, it will have several
of these mini-splits (they are heats pumps also). Also one outside unit can
run two inside units. The only wart I have found so far is this: the fan
does't run all the time during the heat phase.

"ls02" wrote in message

....
On Dec 16, 3:14 pm, wrote:

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:

On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that
already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot
water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do,
and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

A lot depends on what kind of ducts you run. When I lived up north I
installed metal myself but I did have a fishing buddy that hooked me
up with the fabricator so it was just putting them in. All of the
drops were run with round pipe and that just snaps together. The ducts
themselves needed the lips bent over and the S Slips and drive flanges
driven in. It was really pretty easy. A wrap of silver tape sealed
everything up. The trick is getting a decent price from a fabricator.
They are a pretty closed community. A lot won't even talk to you if
you are not in the trade. Ever been to alt.HVAC? ;-)
If you use duct board and flex duct, you need the tool to cut the
angles in the duct board without breaking the foil. use silver tape,
(not "duct tape") and get a plastic wiper doodad to seal the tape
down. The HVAC supplier usually gives them away.
Keep your flex straight and pulled pretty tight so it doesn't have a
lot of ridges to slow the air flow. Some say it is best to run it on
1x running boards where it crosses truss chords to give yourself a
flat surface. Seal all the joints with mastic when you are done.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not going to use flex ducts, only straight metal ducts. I believe
all ducts components (round ducts, elbows, registers, etc.) are
available from big home centers. I have experience snapping them
together and I nkow how to seal joints with aluminum tape and furnice
cement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Insulated metal ducts are not available at any big box store I've been
to. *Just ends. *Just about all installations these days use
flexduct. *It is far faster to install, lighter, and because you do
not have as many junctions you have less risk of leaks.

You ask an installer to use all rectagular metal duct instead of flex
and your quote will be thousands higher.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Do flex duct have more resitance to air flow? I remember they are not
recommended even for bath exhaust fan.

Also if metal ducts are not insulated, can I insulate them myself? Do
I wrap ducts with special duct insulation wrap?

On Dec 17, 12:06*pm, ls02 wrote:
On Dec 17, 11:37*am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Dec 16, 4:13*pm, "lost" wrote:

That were me with the Amcoraire. When I bought it, I roughly figured 3 years
to amorize it. Now, it's gonna pay for itself *in less than 2 years.. I have
a 12K microprocessor controlled version with a seer of 18. Central unit (old
(for around here)) has a seer of 8 or 9. I plugged the Amcoraire into my
Kill-a-watt for a couple of days (summer time). In 55 hours it used
6.8KWH!!!!! My honey and I like it cold in the bedroom. I have the "setback
thermostat" set the house to 79 at 2300. I set the bedroom a/c (gotta love
those zones) to 69 degrees. If I build another house, it will have several
of these mini-splits (they are heats pumps also). Also one outside unit can
run two inside units. The only wart I have found so far is this: the fan
does't run all the time during the heat phase.

"ls02" wrote in message

....
On Dec 16, 3:14 pm, wrote:

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:

On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that
already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators (as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your hot
water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts do,
and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

cheers

Jules

I am not saying it is easy or hard. Just to me installing ducts and
registers appears to be more feasible for me to do then any other part
of installing forced air equipment. It is possible though that even
ducts are out of my reach or it won't save much $$$ at the end so it
is best to hire pro to do all work. That's why I wonder what if any I
can resonable do myself to save on HVAC work.

A lot depends on what kind of ducts you run. When I lived up north I
installed metal myself but I did have a fishing buddy that hooked me
up with the fabricator so it was just putting them in. All of the
drops were run with round pipe and that just snaps together. The ducts
themselves needed the lips bent over and the S Slips and drive flanges
driven in. It was really pretty easy. A wrap of silver tape sealed
everything up. The trick is getting a decent price from a fabricator.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Please be sure to consult with the HVAC installer. Some of
them get very upset with home owners who are trying to save
a buck. They like to do the whole package. Yours may not be
as easily upsettable.

Yeah, he should post his Q on alt.hvac, for a preview/taste of these
assholes.
Those ****heads on alt.hvac give the industry a worse name than it already
has.
Closed industry, indeed.
--
EA


--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"ls02" wrote in message
...
I will soon have my addition construction drawing from an
architect.
The architect does not do HVAC drawings, he mentioned I need
to find
(he has some he can recommend) HVAC contractors who can do
HVAC
drawings based on his plan. These HVAC drawing and then
"fed' into his
construction drawings which then become integral completed
blueprints.

Once I have HVAC drawings I need to decide how to install
all HVAC
stuff (forced air furnace, A/C, condenser, ducts). I expect
it will
be quite expensive. I am trying to stretch my small budget
and see if
any of HVAC work I can do myself and if it makes sense and
can save me
money at the end. Does anyone have any suggestion regarding
what I can
reasonably do to cut the addition HVAC work? I am handy,
have
extensive remodeling experience but no HVAC experience. I
probably
won't be able to install furnace and A/C but can I install
ducts? Will
I be able to save money this way? Any advise would be
appreciated.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:17:54 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

If you look at a portrait of the Mona Lisa, will you know if
you can paint?

I'm not sure looking at finished ducts tells if you can
install duct.

Well, I know it wouldn't help you. But, that's okay, because I'm not
talking to you. The guy my advice was directed towards is smart. He
probably has a rough idea of what his skill level is, and seeing what
the stuff looks like may be a big help.

When Stormin looks at the Mona Lisa, he's proly wonderin how it would look
pasted on his shower curtain, next to the Elvis print.
--
EA

On Dec 17, 2:25*pm, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Dec 17, 2:02*pm, ls02 wrote:





On Dec 17, 1:04*pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message

....
On Dec 17, 12:06 pm, ls02 wrote:

On Dec 17, 11:37 am, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Dec 16, 4:13 pm, "lost" wrote:

That were me with the Amcoraire. When I bought it, I roughly figured 3
years
to amorize it. Now, it's gonna pay for itself in less than 2 years. I
have
a 12K microprocessor controlled version with a seer of 18. Central
unit (old
(for around here)) has a seer of 8 or 9. I plugged the Amcoraire into
my
Kill-a-watt for a couple of days (summer time). In 55 hours it used
6.8KWH!!!!! My honey and I like it cold in the bedroom. I have the
"setback
thermostat" set the house to 79 at 2300. I set the bedroom a/c (gotta
love
those zones) to 69 degrees. If I build another house, it will have
several
of these mini-splits (they are heats pumps also). Also one outside
unit can
run two inside units. The only wart I have found so far is this: the
fan
does't run all the time during the heat phase.

"ls02" wrote in message

...
On Dec 16, 3:14 pm, wrote:

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:45:48 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:

On Dec 16, 12:36 pm, Jules
wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0800, ls02 wrote:
but can I install ducts?

Yeah, easy to do. It's the system design that seems the hard part
(something I'm looking into myself right now and it's not as
simple as
just slapping a few bits of metal together)

By 'addition' is this construction onto an existing property that
already
has ductwork, furnace etc.? Or is it a separate building which
will
have its own heating?

If it's got its own heating (so you're going to have to invest in
some
sort of heat source anyway) I'd go with water-filled radiators
(as
Existential Angst says), gas-fired combi boiler, and heat your
hot
water
using the same boiler. Pipes take up a lot less space than ducts
do,
and
you'll have a lot more control over where you want the heat.

On Dec 17, 3:05*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:51:09 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:

The same probably for returns. Where is the best to
position registers height wise? Is it better to position them close to
floor (all my registers are 14" from floor level) or higher close to
ceiling?

You are touching on the biggest problem with heating and A/C using the
same ducts.
The objective is exactly opposite depending on which you are using at
the time. Cold air drops and hot air rises

I understand this. Ideally you would have lower registers for heating
and upper registers for cooling. I will talk to HVAC pro but I still
want to see what generally accepted solution to locating register is.
From space perspective I want them all to be high close to ceiling.
Right now several of my existing registers are blocked by furniture.

On Dec 17, 3:12*pm, ls02 wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:05*pm, wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:51:09 -0800 (PST), ls02
wrote:

The same probably for returns. Where is the best to
position registers height wise? Is it better to position them close to
floor (all my registers are 14" from floor level) or higher close to
ceiling?

You are touching on the biggest problem with heating and A/C using the
same ducts.
The objective is exactly opposite depending on which you are using at
the time. Cold air drops and hot air rises

I understand this. Ideally you would have lower registers for heating
and upper registers for cooling. I will talk to HVAC pro but I still
want to see what generally accepted solution to locating register is.
From space perspective I want them all to be high close to ceiling.
Right now several of my existing registers are blocked by furniture.

Commonly these days they are located where it makes it easiest to
connect them. Ceiling for attic systems and floor for garage/basement
systems.

Yes, flex has more resistance. Yes, you can insulate metal
ducts. I've done it.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"ls02" wrote in message
...


Do flex duct have more resitance to air flow? I remember
they are not
recommended even for bath exhaust fan.

Also if metal ducts are not insulated, can I insulate them
myself? Do
I wrap ducts with special duct insulation wrap?

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:02:20 -0800, ls02 wrote:
Thank you for the info. All my walls including external ones are 2 X
4. So I cannot run 6" or 8" ducts inside them. I don't know if using
rectangular or oval ducts is better than using 4" round ones. My 50 yo
house has all 4" round ducts from plenums.

Yes, that's the problem I have in our place - no upstairs ducted heat
(just electric baseboard), and it'd be hard to get anything up there due
to the layout and wall thickness. All the upstairs rooms have two windows,
too, so I'd really need two registers per room.

I'm thinking water-filled rads would be a *lot* easier - I should be able
to run plastic pipe without disturbing the floors too much Only downside
is that I need quite a few pipe runs at right-angles to the floor joists,
and I don't like drilling holes in critical structures :-)

cheers

Jules

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:25:14 -0800, jamesgangnc wrote:
If you are running forced air from below a ground floor to a 2nd story
typically a large run is made somewhere inside like the back corner of
a closet to a distribution hub in the attic. Then branched out from
that with flex to ceiling registers.

I'm always surprised that even works - it means really long runs, going
through cold attic space, only to have warm air come out at ceiling level,
right where it's least useful for heating the room.

cheers

Jules

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:02:20 -0800, ls02 wrote:
Thank you for the info. All my walls including external ones are 2 X
4. So I cannot run 6" or 8" ducts inside them. I don't know if using
rectangular or oval ducts is better than using 4" round ones. My 50 yo
house has all 4" round ducts from plenums.

Yes, that's the problem I have in our place - no upstairs ducted heat
(just electric baseboard), and it'd be hard to get anything up there due
to the layout and wall thickness. All the upstairs rooms have two windows,
too, so I'd really need two registers per room.

I'm thinking water-filled rads would be a *lot* easier - I should be able
to run plastic pipe without disturbing the floors too much Only downside
is that I need quite a few pipe runs at right-angles to the floor joists,
and I don't like drilling holes in critical structures :-)

One possibility is to do the plumbing runs on the wall surfaces, and hide
them behind a kind of cove or crown molding -- basically just a 45 deg slat
of wood at the baseboard, or ceiling, or where two walls meet vertically.
Aesthetically, cosmetically, these 45 deg ditties could actually be a plus,
if done right.

And, it would make the runs easier to do.

That still leaves the A/C, tho -- unless someone figgers out how to do a hot
water/chilled water system economically.
If I went through the trouble to run hot water (which doesn't seem like all
that much trouble, compared to ducting,esp. considering the results), I'd
proly go the whole way, and avoid A/C ducting, via mini-splits.

Another idea, if going the ducting route, is to install both high AND low
registers, that are switchable, for heat, A/C.
TOH or hgtv showed this pneumatic ditty, where full zoning is achieved via
pneumatic air bags in each register -- which can also be retrofitted, btw.
I posted a link to the company that did this a while ago, don't have it
offhand. Very inneresting, tho, to see them snake bitty plastic pneumatic
lines thru the ductwork, registers..

Imo, however, ducting is inherently "sloppy", energy-wise, unless one goes
through phenomenal effort to make sure everything is air-tight, insulated,
etc.
--
EA


cheers

Jules

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:33:02 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:
I'm thinking water-filled rads would be a *lot* easier - I should be able
to run plastic pipe without disturbing the floors too much Only downside
is that I need quite a few pipe runs at right-angles to the floor joists,
and I don't like drilling holes in critical structures :-)

One possibility is to do the plumbing runs on the wall surfaces, and hide
them behind a kind of cove or crown molding -- basically just a 45 deg slat
of wood at the baseboard, or ceiling, or where two walls meet vertically.
Aesthetically, cosmetically, these 45 deg ditties could actually be a plus,
if done right.

interesting idea... in fact I've seen a lot of houses back in the UK where
they just run the pipes on the walls and don't cover them at all. Looks a
bit messy, though.

Last place I had in England had 10mm microbore for the radiator pipework
(which is what, 3/8"-ish) and that worked just fine - but I've not
investigated in the US yet to see if I can get fittings to do
something like that here. That'd mean trim for the rooms would only stand
about 1/2" from the wall, which could easily work (subject to something
interesting having to happen at the corners)

That still leaves the A/C, tho -- unless someone figgers out how to do a
hot water/chilled water system economically.

Yeah, thankfully that's not a problem I've got up here in MN; even in
mid-summer heat, just opening the windows and/or using a fan gets enough
airflow, so I don't need to worry about fitting AC.

Another idea, if going the ducting route, is to install both high AND
low registers, that are switchable, for heat, A/C. TOH or hgtv showed
this pneumatic ditty, where full zoning is achieved via pneumatic air
bags in each register

That's a really neat idea. I was (idly, not seriously considering doing
it) wondering a while ago how I could motorise registers, but that
approach is far more sensible...

Imo, however, ducting is inherently "sloppy", energy-wise, unless one
goes through phenomenal effort to make sure everything is air-tight,
insulated, etc.

Yeah, seems that way to me. I'm not sure why the US still uses so much of
it, except maybe just industry inertia. Maybe it'll change and we'll see
more and more hot water systems around in the next few years...

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:33:02 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:
I'm thinking water-filled rads would be a *lot* easier - I should be
able
to run plastic pipe without disturbing the floors too much Only downside
is that I need quite a few pipe runs at right-angles to the floor
joists,
and I don't like drilling holes in critical structures :-)

One possibility is to do the plumbing runs on the wall surfaces, and hide
them behind a kind of cove or crown molding -- basically just a 45 deg
slat
of wood at the baseboard, or ceiling, or where two walls meet vertically.
Aesthetically, cosmetically, these 45 deg ditties could actually be a
plus,
if done right.

interesting idea... in fact I've seen a lot of houses back in the UK where
they just run the pipes on the walls and don't cover them at all. Looks a
bit messy, though.

Yes I bet it is messy but only that poor efficiency and is OK if don't get
to cold in the area where they use that system, but? I guess it is lot
cheaper.
Now if that is embedded into floor that would be different story.


Last place I had in England had 10mm microbore for the radiator pipework
(which is what, 3/8"-ish) and that worked just fine - but I've not
investigated in the US yet to see if I can get fittings to do
something like that here. That'd mean trim for the rooms would only stand
about 1/2" from the wall, which could easily work (subject to something
interesting having to happen at the corners)

That still leaves the A/C, tho -- unless someone figgers out how to do a
hot water/chilled water system economically.

Yeah, thankfully that's not a problem I've got up here in MN; even in
mid-summer heat, just opening the windows and/or using a fan gets enough
airflow, so I don't need to worry about fitting AC.

Another idea, if going the ducting route, is to install both high AND
low registers, that are switchable, for heat, A/C. TOH or hgtv showed
this pneumatic ditty, where full zoning is achieved via pneumatic air
bags in each register

That's a really neat idea. I was (idly, not seriously considering doing
it) wondering a while ago how I could motorise registers, but that
approach is far more sensible...

Imo, however, ducting is inherently "sloppy", energy-wise, unless one
goes through phenomenal effort to make sure everything is air-tight,
insulated, etc.

Yeah, seems that way to me. I'm not sure why the US still uses so much of
it, except maybe just industry inertia. Maybe it'll change and we'll see
more and more hot water systems around in the next few years...

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:33:02 -0500, Existential Angst wrote:
I'm thinking water-filled rads would be a *lot* easier - I should be
able
to run plastic pipe without disturbing the floors too much Only downside
is that I need quite a few pipe runs at right-angles to the floor
joists,
and I don't like drilling holes in critical structures :-)

One possibility is to do the plumbing runs on the wall surfaces, and hide
them behind a kind of cove or crown molding -- basically just a 45 deg
slat
of wood at the baseboard, or ceiling, or where two walls meet vertically.
Aesthetically, cosmetically, these 45 deg ditties could actually be a
plus,
if done right.

interesting idea... in fact I've seen a lot of houses back in the UK where
they just run the pipes on the walls and don't cover them at all. Looks a
bit messy, though.

Heh, exposed plumbing is a bit of a retro-rage in some high-end bathrooms,
NYC/Greewich Village/SoHo type stuff..
Chromed, of course.


Last place I had in England had 10mm microbore for the radiator pipework
(which is what, 3/8"-ish) and that worked just fine - but I've not
investigated in the US yet to see if I can get fittings to do
something like that here. That'd mean trim for the rooms would only stand
about 1/2" from the wall, which could easily work (subject to something
interesting having to happen at the corners)

So 1/2 copper (do they make a 3/8 copper?? I think they do -- I've got
oddball smallish fitting) would do just fine, then.

And think Wire-Mold for office-type surface wiring -- in that office
beige/brown.
Not really my style, but perhaps something analogous could be done with the
whole baseboard system, a very slight tasteful "boxing out". Or, a bottom
cove.


That still leaves the A/C, tho -- unless someone figgers out how to do a
hot water/chilled water system economically.

Yeah, thankfully that's not a problem I've got up here in MN; even in
mid-summer heat, just opening the windows and/or using a fan gets enough
airflow, so I don't need to worry about fitting AC.

Another idea, if going the ducting route, is to install both high AND
low registers, that are switchable, for heat, A/C. TOH or hgtv showed
this pneumatic ditty, where full zoning is achieved via pneumatic air
bags in each register

That's a really neat idea. I was (idly, not seriously considering doing
it) wondering a while ago how I could motorise registers, but that
approach is far more sensible...

Well, check out
http://www.cleanairsystemsinc.net/da...OrbQFrS4vlkqWm ,
about 2/3 down, "parallel blade zone damper"
and http://www.cinemabuilder.com/products/HVAC/hvac.asp .
Grainger's has motorized dampers, but larger area, larger price.

I'm looking into one of the above for a drafty kitchen vent.



Imo, however, ducting is inherently "sloppy", energy-wise, unless one
goes through phenomenal effort to make sure everything is air-tight,
insulated, etc.

Yeah, seems that way to me. I'm not sure why the US still uses so much of
it, except maybe just industry inertia. Maybe it'll change and we'll see
more and more hot water systems around in the next few years...

Proly cuz it half-assedly kills two birds with one stone -- heat and A/C.
I'm hoping someone figgers out a nifty residential hot water/chilled water
system, altho that would proly be only for new construction. The condensate
handling would be a bear for retrofitting. But mebbe someone can figger
that out as well.
--
EA