This morning I noticed that the recessed lights in our room were dim. To
my surprise, the Aube *electronic in-wall timer* switch (T1032-3W) was
in the off position. Turning it to on brought the lights on full.

I did the following troubleshooting:

1. Outlet tester tested OK (note I used an outlet tester with a light
bulb socket adapter and ran a separate wire to the ground pin of an
outlet on the same circuit). In particular, the tester did't show bad
neutral.

2. Other lights on same circuit behave normally

3. Outlets on same circuit test normally with outlet tester (including a
GFI outlet on the circuit)


4. If I slide the manual off switch on the timer, the effect goes
away. (Note the manual switch is in addition to the push-on-push-off
style switch that is normally used to override the timer action. This
manual switch shuts off power to the timer display too and is
presumably in series with the timer and the push-on-push-off switch).

5. Switch box was rewired and timer added about 3 months ago. But no
problems until now.

Note the timer connects only to the load and to line (it actually has 3
wires but in 2-way mode two of them are connected together) -- so it
itself does not have a neutral.

Based on 1-5 of the above, I'm thinking it is a bad timer rather than
bad neutral. Presumably since the timer switch is electronic and not
mechanical, it could leak current even in the timer "off" mode resulting
in a partially lit circuit. Actually, some current is required to always
flow in the circuit to power the timer since the neutral is not
connected to the timer -- in fact, I believe that is why it needs to
have at least a 40W load to ensure that the resistance of the circuit is
not too high o provide the necessary leakage current in normal off mode
to operate the electronics. In particular, the fact that the effect goes
away when the built-in mechanical switch is off, suggest to me that it
is a timer issue.

But since I know "bad neutrals" are scarey business, I wanted to ask
here for other inputs. In particular, if it's just a faulty timer, I
don't have to rush to fix it...

Thanks

On Nov 27, 4:38*am, blueman wrote:
This morning I noticed that the recessed lights in our room were dim. To
my surprise, the Aube *electronic in-wall timer* switch (T1032-3W) was
in the off position. Turning it to on brought the lights on full.

I did the following troubleshooting:

1. Outlet tester tested OK (note I used an outlet tester with a light
* *bulb socket adapter and ran a separate wire to the ground pin of an
* *outlet on the same circuit). In particular, the tester didn't show bad
* *neutral.

2. Other lights on same circuit behave normally

3. Outlets on same circuit test normally with outlet tester (including a
* *GFI outlet on the circuit)

4. If I slide the manual off switch on the timer, the effect goes
* *away. (Note the manual switch is in addition to the push-on-push-off
* *style switch that is normally used to override the timer action. This
* *manual switch shuts off power to the timer display too and is
* *presumably in series with the timer and the push-on-push-off switch).

5. Switch box was rewired and timer added about 3 months ago. But no
* *problems until now.

Note the timer connects only to the load and to line (it actually has 3
wires but in 2-way mode two of them are connected together) -- so it
itself does not have a neutral.

Based on 1-5 of the above, I'm thinking it is a bad timer rather than
bad neutral. Presumably since the timer switch is electronic and not
mechanical, it could leak current even in the timer "off" mode resulting
in a partially lit circuit. Actually, some current is required to always
flow in the circuit to power the timer since the neutral is not
connected to the timer -- in fact, I believe that is why it needs to
have at least a 40W load to ensure that the resistance of the circuit is
not too high o provide the necessary leakage current in normal off mode
to operate the electronics. In particular, the fact that the effect goes
away when the built-in mechanical switch is off, suggest to me that it
is a timer issue.

But since I know "bad neutrals" are scary business, I wanted to ask
here for other inputs. In particular, if it's just a faulty timer, I
don't have to rush to fix it...

Thanks

Suggestion. Since the timer does not have a neutral connection it
sounds as though it depends on the 'juice' to operate it's internal
timer circuit on current flowing through itself to the various lamps
it is connected to. That small current may be sufficient for the lamps
to glow slightly?

Have seen thermostats like that; their timers depend on the slight
current flowing through even when the thermostat is 'off', or turned
down. In fact some (programmable thermostats) even specify that there
must be a minimum 500 watt heater connected for sufficient current to
flow and the timer to operate correctly!

That idea confirm thinking?

BTW neighbor tried using plug into an outlet 'electronic' timers for
table lamps etc. to make house look occupied while away. Also had
alarm extended to my house! But gave up in disgust because with minor
outages they reset to zero.

I have used el-cheapo electromechanical timers ($2.50 on sale!) which
even if they suffer a few minutes or a momentary power interruption
just start up again (slightly off-time) once power restored. These
also have small switch contacts so doesn't much matter what they
(within their current rating) control. Could be incandescent bulb,
CFL, small fan motor, radio etc..

Cheers.

terry wrote:
On Nov 27, 4:38 am, wrote:
This morning I noticed that the recessed lights in our room were dim. To
my surprise, the Aube *electronic in-wall timer* switch (T1032-3W) was
in the off position. Turning it to on brought the lights on full.

I did the following troubleshooting:

1. Outlet tester tested OK (note I used an outlet tester with a light
bulb socket adapter and ran a separate wire to the ground pin of an
outlet on the same circuit). In particular, the tester didn't show bad
neutral.

2. Other lights on same circuit behave normally

3. Outlets on same circuit test normally with outlet tester (including a
GFI outlet on the circuit)

4. If I slide the manual off switch on the timer, the effect goes
away. (Note the manual switch is in addition to the push-on-push-off
style switch that is normally used to override the timer action. This
manual switch shuts off power to the timer display too and is
presumably in series with the timer and the push-on-push-off switch).

5. Switch box was rewired and timer added about 3 months ago. But no
problems until now.

Note the timer connects only to the load and to line (it actually has 3
wires but in 2-way mode two of them are connected together) -- so it
itself does not have a neutral.

Based on 1-5 of the above, I'm thinking it is a bad timer rather than
bad neutral. Presumably since the timer switch is electronic and not
mechanical, it could leak current even in the timer "off" mode resulting
in a partially lit circuit. Actually, some current is required to always
flow in the circuit to power the timer since the neutral is not
connected to the timer -- in fact, I believe that is why it needs to
have at least a 40W load to ensure that the resistance of the circuit is
not too high o provide the necessary leakage current in normal off mode
to operate the electronics. In particular, the fact that the effect goes
away when the built-in mechanical switch is off, suggest to me that it
is a timer issue.

But since I know "bad neutrals" are scary business, I wanted to ask
here for other inputs. In particular, if it's just a faulty timer, I
don't have to rush to fix it...

Thanks

Suggestion. Since the timer does not have a neutral connection it
sounds as though it depends on the 'juice' to operate it's internal
timer circuit on current flowing through itself to the various lamps
it is connected to. That small current may be sufficient for the lamps
to glow slightly?

Have seen thermostats like that; their timers depend on the slight
current flowing through even when the thermostat is 'off', or turned
down. In fact some (programmable thermostats) even specify that there
must be a minimum 500 watt heater connected for sufficient current to
flow and the timer to operate correctly!

That idea confirm thinking?

BTW neighbor tried using plug into an outlet 'electronic' timers for
table lamps etc. to make house look occupied while away. Also had
alarm extended to my house! But gave up in disgust because with minor
outages they reset to zero.

I have used el-cheapo electromechanical timers ($2.50 on sale!) which
even if they suffer a few minutes or a momentary power interruption
just start up again (slightly off-time) once power restored. These
also have small switch contacts so doesn't much matter what they
(within their current rating) control. Could be incandescent bulb,
CFL, small fan motor, radio etc..

Cheers.
Hi,
One reason I use battery operated timer. No worry of power failure, no
worry of minimum load. Batteries last at least a year.

terry wrote:

I have used el-cheapo electromechanical timers ($2.50 on sale!) which
even if they suffer a few minutes or a momentary power interruption
just start up again (slightly off-time) once power restored. These
also have small switch contacts so doesn't much matter what they
(within their current rating) control. Could be incandescent bulb,
CFL, small fan motor, radio etc..


I'm with you! I got tired of buying $35 coffee pots that supposedly have the
coffee ready when one stumbles into the kitchen. After the third one broke
(for one reason or another), I got a cheap $7.95 pot and plugged it in to a
mechanical timer.

It's worked swell for a couple of years now.

On Nov 27, 12:53*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
terry wrote:

I have used el-cheapo electromechanical timers ($2.50 on sale!) which
even if they suffer a few minutes or a momentary power interruption
just start up again (slightly off-time) once power restored. These
also have small switch contacts so doesn't much matter what they
(within their current rating) control. Could be incandescent bulb,
CFL, small fan motor, radio etc..

I'm with you! I got tired of buying $35 coffee pots that supposedly have the
coffee ready when one stumbles into the kitchen. After the third one broke
(for one reason or another), I got a cheap $7.95 pot and plugged it in to a
mechanical timer.

It's worked swell for a couple of years now.

Just referring to the OPs point again.

If 100 years ago the inrush of cheap only partially compatible
'gadgets' (timers, dimmers programmables etc. etc.) and other add-ons
could have been foreseen, electrical codes might have been written to
have a neutral in every electrical connection box!
Imagine how convenient that would have been?
In North America every white a neutral, in UK (Europe) every black (or
now blue) the neutral!

BTW a question if I may. Occasionally a switch will have a little
indicator neon etc to remind one that light or something in another
area has been left on. With no neutral in the wall switch box how is
that few milliamp neon etc. connected through its resistor?
Maybe between the switched side and the switch box ground?
Cos if across the switch contacts it will glow when the switch is in
the 'off' position; as does one, still, after some 40 years in one of
the children's rooms!