was cleaning up today and decided to replace some receptacles upstairs
since 'rents are coming to visit soon, and these were ugly, painted
over, plates didn't match each other, etc...

now I knew that some of the work was less than optimal, and that things
weren't properly grounded, but the wall I was working on was added after
the house was built and was wired with romex with a ground conductor, so
I assumed that at least that run was done right...

1) at each receptacle, the ground was connected as follows - one
conductor was under one cable clamp, a pigtail was connected to the
actual ground screw to the box, and then the pigtail and the other
ground conductor were both under the screw of the device. How much
would a wire nut and another pigtail have cost to do things right and
have all the grounds securely spliced and only one conductor under the
screw terminal?

2) all receps were backstab only. Several of these were ones I didn't
use because I'd identified them as loose. Dunno if there's a connection
there or not...

3) I ASSumed that since these were wired with grounded romex that they
were actually grounded. Guess what? Not so much. I found one recep
with a bootleg from neutral to ground; when I put everything back
together wired correctly, now they test as ungrounded. Guess I have
some poking around in ceiling boxes to do to find where the new wiring
begins and the old wiring ends, and provide a ground at that location.
No big deal...

4) here's the one that really gets me. One box was loose and flopping
around. Rather than ripping it out and putting in an old work box,
someone had gobbed a mess of caulking behind the plate in an attempt to
hold it in place. Of course I knocked it out and put an old work box in
instead, and spent a little quality time with a razor blade getting all
the nastiness off the wall. (have had to do this in three different
locations now in this house...) In this same box I found a 20A spec
grade receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit. I also repulled a
horizontal run through the wall to the next box, because it was easy to
do with one box out, because...

5) all conductors were trimmed so there was maybe 1.5" of wire past the
wall, if you pulled the wires straight out from their clamps. Made
wiring up the receps a royal PITA, I tell you. Repulling this one run
made sense because the old work box didn't have a side entry knockout
which meant that reusing the old cable was going to be very difficult
without any slack.

I'm not really looking for advice, because I can handle this, I just
needed to vent. I suspect that this work was done not by the previous
owners of the house but one back from that, who was supposedly a contractor.

I should be really glad that he didn't do more work than he did. My
next project is to replace a couple ceiling boxes on the second floor,
which should tie in nicely to the work that I've discovered that I need
to do to provide grounds, because they too are loose and floppy and
hanging down below the plaster. (I'll replace them with fan rated
boxes, because I think the girl wants to put ceiling fans in the
bedroom, and at the same time repull the switch legs with 14/3WG in
preparation.) I just can't believe that someone supposedly professional
could do work that even I can recognize as really shoddy.

One question after that whole rant, though - does anyone make fan rated
octagon extension rings? I suspect that at least one of those ceiling
boxes must be pretty chock full of wire.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 11/15/2009 5:13 PM Nate Nagel spake thus:

One question after that whole rant, though - does anyone make fan rated
octagon extension rings? I suspect that at least one of those ceiling
boxes must be pretty chock full of wire.

Do extension rings really need to be "fan rated"? Do the fan-rated boxes
actually have beefier threads, instead of the maybe 1-1/2 threads in
sheet metal in regular boxes?

Seems kinds dicey, expecting a heavy ceiling fan to hang securely by two
little bitty 6-32 screws ...


--
Who needs a junta or a dictatorship when you have a Congress
blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?

- harvested from Usenet

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 11/15/2009 5:13 PM Nate Nagel spake thus:

One question after that whole rant, though - does anyone make fan
rated octagon extension rings? I suspect that at least one of those
ceiling boxes must be pretty chock full of wire.

Do extension rings really need to be "fan rated"? Do the fan-rated boxes
actually have beefier threads, instead of the maybe 1-1/2 threads in
sheet metal in regular boxes?

Seems kinds dicey, expecting a heavy ceiling fan to hang securely by two
little bitty 6-32 screws ...


yes, the fan rated boxes typically have 10-32 screws.

Whether or not this is a real concern to me depends on where I find all
the splices. Hopefully it's in the hallway where I'd never put a fan
anyway...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
was cleaning up today and decided to replace some receptacles upstairs
since 'rents are coming to visit soon, and these were ugly, painted over,
plates didn't match each other, etc...

now I knew that some of the work was less than optimal, and that things
weren't properly grounded, but the wall I was working on was added after
the house was built and was wired with romex with a ground conductor, so I
assumed that at least that run was done right...

1) at each receptacle, the ground was connected as follows - one conductor
was under one cable clamp, a pigtail was connected to the actual ground
screw to the box, and then the pigtail and the other ground conductor were
both under the screw of the device. How much would a wire nut and another
pigtail have cost to do things right and have all the grounds securely
spliced and only one conductor under the screw terminal?

2) all receps were backstab only. Several of these were ones I didn't use
because I'd identified them as loose. Dunno if there's a connection there
or not...

3) I ASSumed that since these were wired with grounded romex that they
were actually grounded. Guess what? Not so much. I found one recep with
a bootleg from neutral to ground; when I put everything back together
wired correctly, now they test as ungrounded. Guess I have some poking
around in ceiling boxes to do to find where the new wiring begins and the
old wiring ends, and provide a ground at that location. No big deal...

4) here's the one that really gets me. One box was loose and flopping
around. Rather than ripping it out and putting in an old work box,
someone had gobbed a mess of caulking behind the plate in an attempt to
hold it in place. Of course I knocked it out and put an old work box in
instead, and spent a little quality time with a razor blade getting all
the nastiness off the wall. (have had to do this in three different
locations now in this house...) In this same box I found a 20A spec grade
receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit. I also repulled a
horizontal run through the wall to the next box, because it was easy to do
with one box out, because...

5) all conductors were trimmed so there was maybe 1.5" of wire past the
wall, if you pulled the wires straight out from their clamps. Made wiring
up the receps a royal PITA, I tell you. Repulling this one run made sense
because the old work box didn't have a side entry knockout which meant
that reusing the old cable was going to be very difficult without any
slack.

I'm not really looking for advice, because I can handle this, I just
needed to vent. I suspect that this work was done not by the previous
owners of the house but one back from that, who was supposedly a
contractor.

I should be really glad that he didn't do more work than he did. My next
project is to replace a couple ceiling boxes on the second floor, which
should tie in nicely to the work that I've discovered that I need to do to
provide grounds, because they too are loose and floppy and hanging down
below the plaster. (I'll replace them with fan rated boxes, because I
think the girl wants to put ceiling fans in the bedroom, and at the same
time repull the switch legs with 14/3WG in preparation.) I just can't
believe that someone supposedly professional could do work that even I can
recognize as really shoddy.

One question after that whole rant, though - does anyone make fan rated
octagon extension rings? I suspect that at least one of those ceiling
boxes must be pretty chock full of wire.



*I have seen jobs like what you have described. I believe most of them were
done by handymen or contractors with no electrical experience or
qualifications.

I have never seen fan rated extension boxes, but there are deeper fan foxes
(2 1/8").

I've also worked on shoddy craftsmanship. Sure makes it
harder for the next guy.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Nate Nagel"
wrote in message ...


I'm not really looking for advice, because I can handle
this, I just
needed to vent.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...


In this same box I found a 20A spec
grade receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit.

I believe that is no problem as the fuse or breaker will limit the current
being drawn. Having a better plug harms nothing.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

On Nov 16, 1:13*pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

*In this same box I found a 20A spec
grade receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit.

I believe that is no problem as the fuse or breaker will limit the current
being drawn. *Having a better plug harms nothing.

sure, it's not a problem, but it just looks wrong, and at least to me
is a sign of a semi-gluteal job (probably done using leftovers from
something else, I suspect.) Plus if you ever did plug a 20A device
into it (in the spare bedroom?) all the 2nd floor lights would go out.

Funny thing is there's a 20A dedicated circuit going to one box in the
hallway (I presume for a window AC unit) that has a 15A duplex recep
in it... go figure.

nate

On Nov 16, 1:59*pm, N8N wrote:
On Nov 16, 1:13*pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

*In this same box I found a 20A spec
grade receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit.

I believe that is no problem as the fuse or breaker will limit the current
being drawn. *Having a better plug harms nothing.

sure, it's not a problem, but it just looks wrong, and at least to me
is a sign of a semi-gluteal job (probably done using leftovers from
something else, I suspect.) *Plus if you ever did plug a 20A device
into it (in the spare bedroom?) all the 2nd floor lights would go out.

Funny thing is there's a 20A dedicated circuit going to one box in the
hallway (I presume for a window AC unit) that has a 15A duplex recep
in it... go figure.

nate

Plus if you ever did plug a 20A device into it ... all the 2nd
floor lights would go out.

Only if the total draw exceeded 15A. Simply plugging in the 20A device
wouldn't necessarily trip the breaker.

But you knew that. ;-)

On Nov 16, 1:59*pm, N8N wrote:
On Nov 16, 1:13*pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

*In this same box I found a 20A spec
grade receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit.

I believe that is no problem as the fuse or breaker will limit the current
being drawn. *Having a better plug harms nothing.

sure, it's not a problem, but it just looks wrong, and at least to me
is a sign of a semi-gluteal job (probably done using leftovers from
something else, I suspect.) *Plus if you ever did plug a 20A device
into it (in the spare bedroom?) all the 2nd floor lights would go out.

Funny thing is there's a 20A dedicated circuit going to one box in the
hallway (I presume for a window AC unit) that has a 15A duplex recep
in it... go figure.

nate

I presume for a window AC unit

Is there a window in the hallway?

Even if there is, that seems a strange place to put an AC unit.

Very strange wiring indeed.

On Nov 16, 2:35*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 16, 1:59*pm, N8N wrote:





On Nov 16, 1:13*pm, "Roger Shoaf" wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

*In this same box I found a 20A spec
grade receptacle, even though this is a 15A circuit.

I believe that is no problem as the fuse or breaker will limit the current
being drawn. *Having a better plug harms nothing.

sure, it's not a problem, but it just looks wrong, and at least to me
is a sign of a semi-gluteal job (probably done using leftovers from
something else, I suspect.) *Plus if you ever did plug a 20A device
into it (in the spare bedroom?) all the 2nd floor lights would go out.

Funny thing is there's a 20A dedicated circuit going to one box in the
hallway (I presume for a window AC unit) that has a 15A duplex recep
in it... go figure.

nate

I presume for a window AC unit

Is there a window in the hallway?

Even if there is, that seems a strange place to put an AC unit.

Very strange wiring indeed.

Well, it's a hallway/top of stair landing thing. And all the bedrooms
open off of it. There's a 20A circuit feeding a recep there, and
there's another 20A circuit feeding a recep in the living room
directly below; I can only ASSume that that's what they were for.
Last owners were greener than the area around the hole on a golf
course, so there was no AC at all when we bought the place; we just
installed central air rather than fight with window shakers.

Both floors have a single 15A circuit for general lighting/receps and
then there's another 15A circuit for the stair and kitchen lighting.
House was built in late 40's so I assume that that (and kitchen
counter, washer/dryer, basement lighting, etc.) was all there was
originally and everything else has been added since.

nate

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I've also worked on shoddy craftsmanship. Sure makes it
harder for the next guy.

Sometimes not. I find that encountering stuff like that makes it easy for
me to decide to pull it all and redo it from scratch. I've spent too much
time in old houses trying to trace old wires or figure out mongolian cluster
f&cks because some of the wiring looked competent. Looks can be deceiving.

I used to wonder when I was younger why the phone company techs would just
lay in new wire when it looked liked there was perfectly good phone wire
already there. Now I know. Wire is cheap; figuring out what any number of
non-professionals have done to the wiring since it was first installed is
expensive. I've begun labelling everything obsessively for the time when my
memory gets even more corroded. I've begun labelling everything
obsessively for the time when my memory gets even more corroded. I've
begun labelling everything obsessively for the time when my memory gets even
more corroded. (-:

--
Bobby G.