I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

I have extra flooring that I have set up so I can test various finishes. I
have already tested a number of stains and, if I have to, I will go with one
of those. But, what I really want is to be able to put a completely clear
finish over the new unfinished hardwood flooring. I like the way it looks
now and I would like to be able to keep that look and coloration. All of
the so-called "clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are not
really clear. They are amber color, and they also stain and darken the wood
grain.

Here are my two questions:

1) I am interested in clear Moisture Cure Urethane (one brand is made by
Garco) -- but I can't find anywhere to buy it. It is supposed to be truly
clear. I know it is super volatile and maybe that's why it is not easily
available. I can apparently buy it online, but then I have to wait 4 to 14
days for it to arrive. Does anyone know where I can go in person and buy
this stuff? I am in New Jersey near Philadelphia, PA.

2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. I get the
impression that they can be more clear than oil-based polyurethane. MinWax
sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear water-based polyurethane
that goes over the base coat. The clear base coat is supposed to seal the
tannins (or something like that) in the wood so it doesn't darken, and then
hopefully the top coat won't darken the wood when it is applied.

Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay for hardwood floors? Are they
durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes? Are there any special
cleaning requirements or instructions for water-based finishes that are
different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-based
polyurethane finish? I think the answer to that one is "no", but I thought
I would ask anyway.

"JayB" wrote in message
...
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

I have extra flooring that I have set up so I can test various finishes.
I have already tested a number of stains and, if I have to, I will go with
one of those. But, what I really want is to be able to put a completely
clear finish over the new unfinished hardwood flooring. I like the way it
looks now and I would like to be able to keep that look and coloration.
All of the so-called "clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are
not really clear. They are amber color, and they also stain and darken
the wood grain.

Here are my two questions:

1) I am interested in clear Moisture Cure Urethane (one brand is made by
Garco) -- but I can't find anywhere to buy it. It is supposed to be truly
clear. I know it is super volatile and maybe that's why it is not easily
available. I can apparently buy it online, but then I have to wait 4 to
14 days for it to arrive. Does anyone know where I can go in person and
buy this stuff? I am in New Jersey near Philadelphia, PA.

2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. I get the
impression that they can be more clear than oil-based polyurethane.
MinWax sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear water-based
polyurethane that goes over the base coat. The clear base coat is
supposed to seal the tannins (or something like that) in the wood so it
doesn't darken, and then hopefully the top coat won't darken the wood when
it is applied.

Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay for hardwood floors? Are they
durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes? Are there any special
cleaning requirements or instructions for water-based finishes that are
different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-based
polyurethane finish? I think the answer to that one is "no", but I
thought I would ask anyway.

water based are more clear than oil based, and have a slightly blue tint
rather than yellow. they do use water based for floors, but you may have to
recoat more often as they may not be as hard.

ask the rest of your questions on rec.woodworking.

On Nov 6, 11:23*am, "JayB" wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

I have extra flooring that I have set up so I can test various finishes. *I
have already tested a number of stains and, if I have to, I will go with one
of those. *But, what I really want is to be able to put a completely clear
finish over the new unfinished hardwood flooring. *I like the way it looks
now and I would like to be able to keep that look and coloration. *All of
the so-called "clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are not
really clear. *They are amber color, and they also stain and darken the wood
grain.

Here are my two questions:

1) I am interested in clear Moisture Cure Urethane (one brand is made by
Garco) -- but I can't find anywhere to buy it. *It is supposed to be truly
clear. *I know it is super volatile and maybe that's why it is not easily
available. *I can apparently buy it online, but then I have to wait 4 to 14
days for it to arrive. *Does anyone know where I can go in person and buy
this stuff? *I am in New Jersey near Philadelphia, PA.

2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. *I get the
impression that they can be more clear than oil-based polyurethane. *MinWax
sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear water-based polyurethane
that goes over the base coat. *The clear base coat is supposed to seal the
tannins (or something like that) in the wood so it doesn't darken, and then
hopefully the top coat won't darken the wood when it is applied.

Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay for hardwood floors? *Are they
durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes? *Are there any special
cleaning requirements or instructions for water-based finishes that are
different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-based
polyurethane finish? *I think the answer to that one is "no", but I thought
I would ask anyway.

You need to use water based if you wish to avoid yellowing. Most
people never really notice the yellowing though and oil based coating
have been used for a really long time.

JayB wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

I have extra flooring that I have set up so I can test various finishes. I
have already tested a number of stains and, if I have to, I will go with one
of those. But, what I really want is to be able to put a completely clear
finish over the new unfinished hardwood flooring. I like the way it looks
now and I would like to be able to keep that look and coloration. All of
the so-called "clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are not
really clear. They are amber color, and they also stain and darken the wood
grain.

Here are my two questions:

1) I am interested in clear Moisture Cure Urethane (one brand is made by
Garco) -- but I can't find anywhere to buy it. It is supposed to be truly
clear. I know it is super volatile and maybe that's why it is not easily
available. I can apparently buy it online, but then I have to wait 4 to 14
days for it to arrive. Does anyone know where I can go in person and buy
this stuff? I am in New Jersey near Philadelphia, PA.

2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. I get the
impression that they can be more clear than oil-based polyurethane. MinWax
sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear water-based polyurethane
that goes over the base coat. The clear base coat is supposed to seal the
tannins (or something like that) in the wood so it doesn't darken, and then
hopefully the top coat won't darken the wood when it is applied.

I don't know of a clear coat that doesn't darken wood to some extend.
Of course, a very light wood like maple will darken the least. I've
refinished lots of wood and have not used sealers (only stain and
varnish). What kind of wood is it? Pine and oak yellow considerably
exposed to sunlight, regardless of whether water or solvent based finish.

Sealing in the tannins applies to color that bleeds through and stains a
painted finish ... cedar, redwood have more tannins.

Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay for hardwood floors? Are they
durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes? Are there any special
cleaning requirements or instructions for water-based finishes that are
different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-based
polyurethane finish? I think the answer to that one is "no", but I thought
I would ask anyway.


The main thing about oil and water is that they do not mix when liquid.
An old finish, if properly prepared, can generally be covered with the
other type as long as instructions are followed for the product.

charlie wrote:
"JayB" wrote in message
...
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment that I will be renting out.

water based are more clear than oil based, and have a slightly blue
tint rather than yellow. they do use water based for floors, but you
may have to recoat more often as they may not be as hard.

ask the rest of your questions on rec.woodworking.

Thanks. I'll have to see how the water-based stuff looks, and see if it is
clear enough and doesn't darken the wood grain like the so-called "clear"
oil-based stuff does..

And, thanks for the tip about rec.woodworking. I'll post my questions
there. Hopefully that group is as good as this one in terms of people
providing answers and trying to help.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On Nov 6, 11:23 am, "JayB" wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment that I will be renting out.


You need to use water based if you wish to avoid yellowing. Most
people never really notice the yellowing though and oil based coating
have been used for a really long time.

Thanks. It's not really the slight yellowing that I am concerned about.
It's the way it really darkens the grain of the unfinished hardwood --
almost like a stain -- that is what I am trying to avoid.

wrote:
JayB wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment that I will be renting out.


I don't know of a clear coat that doesn't darken wood to some extend.
Of course, a very light wood like maple will darken the least. I've
refinished lots of wood and have not used sealers (only stain and
varnish). What kind of wood is it? Pine and oak yellow considerably
exposed to sunlight, regardless of whether water or solvent based
finish.

The wood is unfinished, #2 red oak.

Sealing in the tannins applies to color that bleeds through and
stains a painted finish ... cedar, redwood have more tannins.

Yep, it's red oak.

The main thing about oil and water is that they do not mix when
liquid. An old finish, if properly prepared, can generally be
covered with the other type as long as instructions are followed for
the product.

That's interesting. "Maybe" that means that I can do the job with clear
water-based base coat and top coats for now. And then, sometime later on
maybe cover that with clear oil-based polyurethane for more durability.

On Nov 6, 10:23*am, "JayB" wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

I have extra flooring that I have set up so I can test various finishes. *I
have already tested a number of stains and, if I have to, I will go with one
of those. *But, what I really want is to be able to put a completely clear
finish over the new unfinished hardwood flooring. *I like the way it looks
now and I would like to be able to keep that look and coloration. *All of
the so-called "clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are not
really clear. *They are amber color, and they also stain and darken the wood
grain.

Here are my two questions:

1) I am interested in clear Moisture Cure Urethane (one brand is made by
Garco) -- but I can't find anywhere to buy it. *It is supposed to be truly
clear. *I know it is super volatile and maybe that's why it is not easily
available. *I can apparently buy it online, but then I have to wait 4 to 14
days for it to arrive. *Does anyone know where I can go in person and buy
this stuff? *I am in New Jersey near Philadelphia, PA.

2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. *I get the
impression that they can be more clear than oil-based polyurethane. *MinWax
sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear water-based polyurethane
that goes over the base coat. *The clear base coat is supposed to seal the
tannins (or something like that) in the wood so it doesn't darken, and then
hopefully the top coat won't darken the wood when it is applied.

Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay for hardwood floors? *Are they
durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes? *Are there any special
cleaning requirements or instructions for water-based finishes that are
different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-based
polyurethane finish? *I think the answer to that one is "no", but I thought
I would ask anyway.

You want durability its a rental that will be abused, not your living
room. Gloss is clearest and most durable , what makes a lower sheen
makes finishes softer and cloudy. Water base is not as durable from
what I have been told but has no color and doesnt amber like oil. dont
bother staining you are making more work for yourself and oil poly
ambers nicely. A few coats of gloss oil followed by a finish coat of
satin looks great. With a rental more coats is better I try to get
3-4. If you stain then recoating in a few years if there is damage
might mean sanding to wood, with no stain recoating is much easier
when there is damage

On Nov 6, 2:15*pm, "JayB" wrote:
wrote:
JayB wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment that I will be renting out.

I don't know of a clear coat that doesn't darken wood to some extend.
Of course, a very light wood like maple will darken the least. *I've
refinished lots of wood and have not used sealers (only stain and
varnish). *What kind of wood is it? *Pine and oak yellow considerably
exposed to sunlight, regardless of whether water or solvent based
finish.

The wood is unfinished, #2 red oak.

Sealing in the tannins applies to color that bleeds through and
stains a painted finish ... cedar, redwood have more tannins.

Yep, it's red oak.

The main thing about oil and water is that they do not mix when
*liquid. An old finish, if properly prepared, can generally be
covered with the other type as long as instructions are followed for
the product.

That's interesting. *"Maybe" that means that I can do the job with clear
water-based base coat and top coats for now. *And then, sometime later on
maybe cover that with clear oil-based polyurethane for more durability.

I'm thinking any red oak is going to darken a good bit when covered
with oil or water based clears. You should choose the wood based on
the finished appearance you are seeking.

Perhaps you can try white washing it a bit before sealing. I have
some cabinets that are oak and have that finish. Basically just wipe
down with a cloth and some white paint. Wipe as much paint off as you
can. What's left will be in the grain. Let dry. When covered with
clear coat the results are pretty light.

JayB wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new
unfinished flooring.

I have extra flooring that I have set up so I can test various
finishes. I have already tested a number of stains and, if I have
to, I will go with one of those. But, what I really want is to be
able to put a completely clear finish over the new unfinished
hardwood flooring. I like the way it looks now and I would like to
be able to keep that look and coloration. All of the so-called
"clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are not really
clear. They are amber color, and they also stain and darken the wood
grain.

They are amber because they are oil based. They don't stain the wood, they
wet it. Most people like that because it accentuates the grain. If you put
oil base poly (3-4 coats) on a light wood the wood will be noticeably
yellower.

Water base polys are white when liquid, clear when dry; however, they too
wet the wood just much less than oil poly.

Someone told you about using a wiped off wash of white paint to avoid the
penetration of the clear top coat. That works and will give you an
appearance pretty close to the raw wood. Best to dilute the oil paint about
50/50 with thinner. The downside is that the non-penetration of the top
coat means it is stuck to the residual paint, not the wood; however, I have
never had any problem doing it...all my now 14 year old butternut kitchen
cabinets are white washed.

You should be aware that regardless of what clear top coat you use the wood
is going to change color over time and exposure to light. Generally, that
change is darker.

_____________


2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. I get
the impression that they can be more clear than oil-based
polyurethane. MinWax sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear
water-based polyurethane that goes over the base coat. The clear
base coat is supposed to seal the tannins (or something like that) in
the wood so it doesn't darken, and then hopefully the top coat won't
darken the wood when it is applied.

Lots of luck with that. What happens if the wood has no tannins? Many
don't.

__________________


Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay for hardwood floors?

Yes

Are they durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes?

Yes

Are there any special cleaning requirements or instructions for
water-based
finishes that are different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

None I know of. Most important thing is to keep grit swept up. Polys
resist scratches well but grit will eventually get them too. Especially if
you used glossy rather than semi-gloss (more noticeable on gloss).

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-based
polyurethane finish? I think the answer to that one is "no", but I
thought I would ask anyway.

Yes. And vice versa assuming the one being covered is totally dry and/or
fully cured. However, unless the old surface is pretty worn it needs to be
lightly sanded to promote adhesion.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 10:23 am, "JayB" wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

.....If you stain then recoating in a few years if there is damage
might mean sanding to wood, with no stain recoating is much easier
when there is damage....

Yes, that's one of the reasons that I was thinking of just using a clear
finish and no staining. Unfortunately, the "clear" polyurethane finishes
makes the wood look bad -- as if it was poorly stained.

JayB wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Nov 6, 10:23 am, "JayB" wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oak hardwood floor installed in an
apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinished
flooring.

....If you stain then recoating in a few years if there is damage
might mean sanding to wood, with no stain recoating is much easier
when there is damage....

Yes, that's one of the reasons that I was thinking of just using a clear
finish and no staining. Unfortunately, the "clear" polyurethane
finishes makes the wood look bad -- as if it was poorly stained.

Can you elaborate on how it looks "bad"? Geesh...red oak should be
beautiful! I don't know flooring or wood grades involved in new mfg.
flooring, just lots of old furniture. Is the flooring a brand name?

wrote in message
m...
JayB wrote:

Yes, that's one of the reasons that I was thinking of just using a clear
finish and no staining. Unfortunately, the "clear" polyurethane finishes
makes the wood look bad -- as if it was poorly stained.

Can you elaborate on how it looks "bad"? Geesh...red oak should be
beautiful! I don't know flooring or wood grades involved in new mfg.
flooring, just lots of old furniture. Is the flooring a brand name?

I bought it at Lumber Liquidators ( http://LumberLiquidators.com ). It's
unfinished #2 Red Oak (with their product number of RO22, I think). The way
it looks bad is that the grain absorbs the clear polyurethane and what
started out as a very light colored wood becomes dark, blotchy, grainy,
junky-looking wood. When I apply any color of oil-based stain, the stain
absorbs in a way that the wood grain looks and is whatever color the stain
makes it. But applying clear polyurethane doesn't do the same thing.

"dadiOH" wrote in message
...

Water base polys are white when liquid, clear when dry; however, they too
wet the wood just much less than oil poly.

My latest frustration is that I went to 3 stores (Home Depot, Lowes, and Ace
Hardware) to find Minwax® Water Based Polyurethane for Floors Professional
Formula and Minwax® Water Based Polyurethane for Floors Base Coat, and none
of the 3 stores had it.

JayB wrote:
wrote in message
m...
JayB wrote:

Yes, that's one of the reasons that I was thinking of just using a
clear finish and no staining. Unfortunately, the "clear"
polyurethane finishes makes the wood look bad -- as if it was poorly
stained.

Can you elaborate on how it looks "bad"? Geesh...red oak should be
beautiful! I don't know flooring or wood grades involved in new mfg.
flooring, just lots of old furniture. Is the flooring a brand name?

I bought it at Lumber Liquidators ( http://LumberLiquidators.com ).
It's unfinished #2 Red Oak (with their product number of RO22, I
think). The way it looks bad is that the grain absorbs the clear
polyurethane and what started out as a very light colored wood becomes
dark, blotchy, grainy, junky-looking wood. When I apply any color of
oil-based stain, the stain absorbs in a way that the wood grain looks
and is whatever color the stain makes it. But applying clear
polyurethane doesn't do the same thing.

With clear finish, oak generally is a mid-tone to deep brown, even
without any stain. And it is very "grainy". It might help if you
upload some pix and post a link, at least for the areas you consider
problems. A good way to get a close idea of how wood will look with a
clear finish is to simply wet it with solvent. Any chance you can
replace some of the worst looking boards?

I took a look at the link you provided and went to the product...RO22 is
called "rustic", as opposed to other red oak called "select" and some
called "natural". If some of the wood is much harder, accounting for
the very light look, you can blend them using stain if you apply the
stain and don't wipe it off the light spots. I haven't done flooring,
but lots of furniture, and have mixed my own stains. If you apply
half-strength stain to the entire floor, you can help blend very light
spots by brushing on same stain, full-strength and not wiping it off.
Sort of a half-assed way of fixing something you apparently didn't
expect when you purchased. I'll cross-post this and see if woodworkers
have some better ideas.

I assume you wipe the stain?

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:28:56 -0500, "JayB" wrote:


"dadiOH" wrote in message
...

Water base polys are white when liquid, clear when dry; however, they too
wet the wood just much less than oil poly.

My latest frustration is that I went to 3 stores (Home Depot, Lowes, and Ace
Hardware) to find Minwax® Water Based Polyurethane for Floors Professional
Formula and Minwax® Water Based Polyurethane for Floors Base Coat, and none
of the 3 stores had it.

Whatever you do, don't go to a PAINT store!

On Nov 6, 7:03*pm, "
wrote:
JayB wrote:
wrote in message
om...
JayB wrote:

Yes, that's one of the reasons that I was thinking of just using a
clear finish and no staining. *Unfortunately, the "clear"
polyurethane finishes makes the wood look bad -- as if it was poorly
stained.

Can you elaborate on how it looks "bad"? *Geesh...red oak should be
beautiful! *I don't know flooring or wood grades involved in new mfg..
flooring, just lots of old furniture. *Is the flooring a brand name?

I bought it at Lumber Liquidators (http://LumberLiquidators.com). *
It's unfinished #2 Red Oak (with their product number of RO22, I
think). *The way it looks bad is that the grain absorbs the clear
polyurethane and what started out as a very light colored wood becomes
dark, blotchy, grainy, junky-looking wood. *When I apply any color of
oil-based stain, the stain absorbs in a way that the wood grain looks
and is whatever color the stain makes it. *But applying clear
polyurethane doesn't do the same thing.

With clear finish, oak generally is a mid-tone to deep brown, even
without any stain. *And it is very "grainy". *It might help if you
upload some pix and post a link, at least for the areas you consider
problems. *A good way to get a close idea of how wood will look with a
clear finish is to simply wet it with solvent. *Any chance you can
replace some of the worst looking boards?

I took a look at the link you provided and went to the product...RO22 is
called "rustic", as opposed to other red oak called "select" and some
called "natural". *If some of the wood is much harder, accounting for
the very light look, you can blend them using stain if you apply the
stain and don't wipe it off the light spots. *I haven't done flooring,
but lots of furniture, and have mixed my own stains. *If you apply
half-strength stain to the entire floor, you can help blend very light
spots by brushing on same stain, full-strength and not wiping it off.
Sort of a half-assed way of fixing something you apparently didn't
expect when you purchased. *I'll cross-post this and see if woodworkers
have some better ideas.

I assume you wipe the stain?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?

wrote in message
m...

With clear finish, oak generally is a mid-tone to deep brown, even without
any stain. And it is very "grainy".

Maybe that's the problem. I was hoping to be able to apply a completely
clear finish and have it look pretty much the way it looks now unfinished,
but with a clear finsih on top. I guess that won't happen.

In my original post, I was also asking about clear Moisture Cure Urethane.
The impression I got is that when it goes on it doesn't really change the
color or look of the wood. I think they said that is what is used on
bowling alleys. I don't know if all of that is true, but it doesn't matter
anyway because I can't find any places to buy the stuff other than online.

It might help if you upload some pix and post a link, at least for the
areas you consider problems. A good way to get a close idea of how wood
will look with a clear finish is to simply wet it with solvent. Any
chance you can replace some of the worst looking boards?

Replacing boards won't be a realsitic option at this point. And, I don't
think I'll get to do the picture idea. Since today is Saturday, I need to
figure out something and get this done this weekend.

I have a hunch that what I am going to end up doing is picking one of the
stains that I already tested and go with that. The stains all darken and
even out the color variations, and some of them look okay enough to go with
(I'm leaning toward Colonial Maple or Golden Pecan). Maybe it won't be
exactly what I was hoping for -- just a clear finish over the unfinished
wood -- but it will be done.

I took a look at the link you provided and went to the product...RO22 is
called "rustic", as opposed to other red oak called "select" and some
called "natural". If some of the wood is much harder, accounting for the
very light look, you can blend them using stain if you apply the stain and
don't wipe it off the light spots. I haven't done flooring, but lots of
furniture, and have mixed my own stains. If you apply half-strength stain
to the entire floor, you can help blend very light spots by brushing on
same stain, full-strength and not wiping it off. Sort of a half-assed way
of fixing something you apparently didn't expect when you purchased. I'll
cross-post this and see if woodworkers have some better ideas.

I assume you wipe the stain?

Yes, I did do what the instructions said about applying the stain, leaving
it there for a certain amount of time, and then wiping it. I thought it was
fairly interesting the way the stains worked and looked by doing that.
Earlier I had tried MinWax "Polyshades" which is a combination of stain and
polyurethane in one. That was okay, and it would be a lot easier, but then
I read that Polyshades is not supposed to be used on floors -- I am not sure
why -- so I guess that's out.

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions. It does appear that you know a
lot about all of this and have a lot of experience with it.

JayB wrote:
wrote in message
m...

With clear finish, oak generally is a mid-tone to deep brown, even
without any stain. And it is very "grainy".

Maybe that's the problem. I was hoping to be able to apply a completely
clear finish and have it look pretty much the way it looks now
unfinished, but with a clear finsih on top. I guess that won't happen.

In my original post, I was also asking about clear Moisture Cure
Urethane. The impression I got is that when it goes on it doesn't really
change the color or look of the wood. I think they said that is what is
used on bowling alleys. I don't know if all of that is true, but it
doesn't matter anyway because I can't find any places to buy the stuff
other than online.

It might help if you upload some pix and post a link, at least for the
areas you consider problems. A good way to get a close idea of how
wood will look with a clear finish is to simply wet it with solvent.
Any chance you can replace some of the worst looking boards?

Replacing boards won't be a realsitic option at this point. And, I
don't think I'll get to do the picture idea. Since today is Saturday, I
need to figure out something and get this done this weekend.

I have a hunch that what I am going to end up doing is picking one of
the stains that I already tested and go with that. The stains all
darken and even out the color variations, and some of them look okay
enough to go with (I'm leaning toward Colonial Maple or Golden Pecan).
Maybe it won't be exactly what I was hoping for -- just a clear finish
over the unfinished wood -- but it will be done.

I took a look at the link you provided and went to the product...RO22
is called "rustic", as opposed to other red oak called "select" and
some called "natural". If some of the wood is much harder, accounting
for the very light look, you can blend them using stain if you apply
the stain and don't wipe it off the light spots. I haven't done
flooring, but lots of furniture, and have mixed my own stains. If you
apply half-strength stain to the entire floor, you can help blend very
light spots by brushing on same stain, full-strength and not wiping it
off. Sort of a half-assed way of fixing something you apparently
didn't expect when you purchased. I'll cross-post this and see if
woodworkers have some better ideas.

I assume you wipe the stain?

Yes, I did do what the instructions said about applying the stain,
leaving it there for a certain amount of time, and then wiping it. I
thought it was fairly interesting the way the stains worked and looked
by doing that. Earlier I had tried MinWax "Polyshades" which is a
combination of stain and polyurethane in one. That was okay, and it
would be a lot easier, but then I read that Polyshades is not supposed
to be used on floors -- I am not sure why -- so I guess that's out.

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions. It does appear that you
know a lot about all of this and have a lot of experience with it.

Most good paint stores ... Sherwin Williams, Ben Moore...carry Minwax
products. A real paint store is a good place to make friends) The
issue you are dealing with is a less than ideal selection of wood....if
you read the details of each type of red oak on the website, you will
see that. The "rustic" grade is the leftovers, with knots,
less-than-desireable grain, etc. Always a good learning experience )
You still have a good solid floor that will take lots of wear and tear
- unless there is a flood or animals toileting on oak floors, it is hard
to damage it. Done properly, it is also pretty easy to maintain.
Taking off shoes at the door will help ) I'd take solid oak before
pergo-type c=== any day.

I stripped oak kitchen cabinets for a friend once because I was out of
work and needed money. Only after I slathered on paint remover did I
realize the end panels of the cabinets were not solid oak like rest of
the cabinet...they were particle board with printed grain. I was
already on the verge of nervous breakdown and that almost put me over
the edge. I got out my art stuff and between wood stain and a few brush
strokes with oil paint I was able to fake the grain pretty well. Not
obvious. I also painted fake woodgrain on floor boards for a doll
house. If you have spots that really stick out like a sore thumb, you
can paint in - with a light touch - enough grain to camouflage the spots
before you do final finish.

On Nov 6, 6:25*pm, "JayB" wrote:
wrote in message

m...

JayB wrote:

Yes, that's one of the reasons that I was thinking of just using a clear
finish and no staining. *Unfortunately, the "clear" polyurethane finishes
makes the wood look bad -- as if it was poorly stained.

Can you elaborate on how it looks "bad"? *Geesh...red oak should be
beautiful! *I don't know flooring or wood grades involved in new mfg.
flooring, just lots of old furniture. *Is the flooring a brand name?

I bought it at Lumber Liquidators (http://LumberLiquidators.com). *It's
unfinished #2 Red Oak (with their product number of RO22, I think). *The way
it looks bad is that the grain absorbs the clear polyurethane and what
started out as a very light colored wood becomes dark, blotchy, grainy,
junky-looking wood. *When I apply any color of oil-based stain, the stain
absorbs in a way that the wood grain looks and is whatever color the stain
makes it. *But applying clear polyurethane doesn't do the same thing.

I cant understand how clear over new wood can look bad, ive seen to
much red oak that never looks bad after a light sanding, Unless its
Water Damaged and old and oxidised. Give it a light sanding and think
about water damage and getting your money back if it still looks bad.
There has been alot of flood damaged wood from southern floods, I can
imagine it was purchased cheap from insurance companies and reboxed,
that stuff doesnt just get junked. Pay a pro floor guy to come over
and get his opinion. New lightly sanded red oak looks great with any
clear finish that ive seen over the last 35 years. The wood and finish
will darken over time a shade or two, I would go clear with only the
last coat being a lower sheen if thats what you want in a finish.

hr(bob) wrote:

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?

I'll have to test that out. I assume you mean a wood sealer, but I'll try
it.

JayB wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?

I'll have to test that out. I assume you mean a wood sealer, but
I'll try it.

He said wood *FILLER*. One would assume that is what he means. Paste wood
filler.

A sealer - a different thing - might help depending on what it is.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

wrote:

.... The
issue you are dealing with is a less than ideal selection of
wood....if you read the details of each type of red oak on the
website, you will see that. The "rustic" grade is the leftovers,
with knots, less-than-desireable grain, etc. Always a good learning
experience ...

Yep, that and few other stupid choices on my part turned this whole thing
into a big mess. So, for now, I am just going to slog my way through this
and chalk it up as an expensive and seemingly neverending learning
experience. Next time, prefinished hardwood for sure -- just install it and
walk out the door with nothing to finish. Plus, by buying unfinished wood,
and too low of a grade of wood to boot, I ended up with way more wasted wood
than I would have had with prefinished wood. Oh well.

) You still have a good solid floor that will take lots
of wear and tear - unless there is a flood or animals toileting on
oak floors, it is hard to damage it. Done properly, it is also
pretty easy to maintain. Taking off shoes at the door will help ) I'd
take solid oak before pergo-type c=== any day.

I stripped oak kitchen cabinets for a friend once because I was out of
work and needed money. Only after I slathered on paint remover did I
realize the end panels of the cabinets were not solid oak like rest of
the cabinet...they were particle board with printed grain. I was
already on the verge of nervous breakdown and that almost put me over
the edge. I got out my art stuff and between wood stain and a few
brush strokes with oil paint I was able to fake the grain pretty
well. Not obvious. I also painted fake woodgrain on floor boards
for a doll house. If you have spots that really stick out like a
sore thumb, you can paint in - with a light touch - enough grain to
camouflage the spots before you do final finish.

I like the story about the cabinets and it almost putting you over the edge.
I know the feeling.

dadiOH wrote:
JayB wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?
I'll have to test that out. I assume you mean a wood sealer, but
I'll try it.

He said wood *FILLER*. One would assume that is what he means. Paste wood
filler.

A sealer - a different thing - might help depending on what it is.

A wood filler is for filling defects.

JayB wrote:
wrote:
.... The
issue you are dealing with is a less than ideal selection of
wood....if you read the details of each type of red oak on the
website, you will see that. The "rustic" grade is the leftovers,
with knots, less-than-desireable grain, etc. Always a good learning
experience ...

Yep, that and few other stupid choices on my part turned this whole thing
into a big mess. So, for now, I am just going to slog my way through this
and chalk it up as an expensive and seemingly neverending learning
experience. Next time, prefinished hardwood for sure -- just install it and
walk out the door with nothing to finish. Plus, by buying unfinished wood,
and too low of a grade of wood to boot, I ended up with way more wasted wood
than I would have had with prefinished wood. Oh well.

Not a stupid choice at all...until one has a good amount of experience
they are not likely to realize there are "grades" of unfinished woods.
I'd be willing to bet the floor will look beautiful and very few people
will notice what you have concerns with about the appearance of the wood
grain. Red oak is still gorgeous stuff....hell, just advertise the
rental as "rustic red oak flooring throughout" and charge an extra
$100/month )

) You still have a good solid floor that will take lots
of wear and tear - unless there is a flood or animals toileting on
oak floors, it is hard to damage it. Done properly, it is also
pretty easy to maintain. Taking off shoes at the door will help ) I'd
take solid oak before pergo-type c=== any day.

I stripped oak kitchen cabinets for a friend once because I was out of
work and needed money. Only after I slathered on paint remover did I
realize the end panels of the cabinets were not solid oak like rest of
the cabinet...they were particle board with printed grain. I was
already on the verge of nervous breakdown and that almost put me over
the edge. I got out my art stuff and between wood stain and a few
brush strokes with oil paint I was able to fake the grain pretty
well. Not obvious. I also painted fake woodgrain on floor boards
for a doll house. If you have spots that really stick out like a
sore thumb, you can paint in - with a light touch - enough grain to
camouflage the spots before you do final finish.

I like the story about the cabinets and it almost putting you over the edge.
I know the feeling.

wrote:
....
A wood filler is for filling defects.

And the proper ones properly prepared and applied also for filling
porous grain in woods like oak to help prevent excessive stain takeup if
the stark contrast isn't the desired effect.

--

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:15:27 -0600, dpb wrote:

wrote:
...
A wood filler is for filling defects.

And the proper ones properly prepared and applied also for filling
porous grain in woods like oak to help prevent excessive stain takeup if
the stark contrast isn't the desired effect.

Pardon me for jumping in, the main reason I see usually stated is to
get a smoother surface, since the filled pores will not have "divots"
after the topcoat is applied. Sometimes people will actually tint the
filler to enhance the contrast. Not me, though.

wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
JayB wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?
I'll have to test that out. I assume you mean a wood sealer, but
I'll try it.

He said wood *FILLER*. One would assume that is what he means. Paste
wood filler.

A sealer - a different thing - might help depending on what it is.

A wood filler is for filling defects.

Apparently you are not familiar with paste wood filler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_filler

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
JayB wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?
I'll have to test that out. I assume you mean a wood sealer, but
I'll try it.
He said wood *FILLER*. One would assume that is what he means. Paste
wood filler.

A sealer - a different thing - might help depending on what it is.

A wood filler is for filling defects.

Apparently you are not familiar with paste wood filler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_filler


I've used wood filler to fill in rotted wood storm window frames. Tried
it on furniture, but the oak furniture I tried it on really didn't need
it....the finish, in two or three coats, filled the grain just fine.
The OP sounds like a relative newby, and getting wood filler in the
right color for an entire floor is not, IMO, a task for a newby.

wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
JayB wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

What about using a wood filler that is supposed to reduce stain
absorbtion and reduce blotchiness?
I'll have to test that out. I assume you mean a wood sealer, but
I'll try it.
He said wood *FILLER*. One would assume that is what he means.
Paste wood filler.

A sealer - a different thing - might help depending on what it is.

A wood filler is for filling defects.

Apparently you are not familiar with paste wood filler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_filler


I've used wood filler to fill in rotted wood storm window frames.

Uhhh...OK. Didn't work very well, did it?

Tried it on furniture, but the oak furniture I tried it on really
didn't need it....the finish, in two or three coats, filled the grain
just fine. The OP sounds like a relative newby, and getting wood
filler in the right color for an entire floor is not, IMO, a task for
a newby.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Nov 6, 4:23*pm, "JayB" wrote:
I now have a new unfinished red oakhardwoodfloor installed in an apartment
that I will be renting out.

What I want is a truly *CLEAR* finish to put down on the new unfinishedflooring.

I have extraflooringthat I have set up so I can test various finishes. *I
have already tested a number of stains and, if I have to, I will go with one
of those. *But, what I really want is to be able to put a completely clear
finish over the new unfinishedhardwoodflooring. *I like the way it looks
now and I would like to be able to keep that look and coloration. *All of
the so-called "clear" polyurethane finishes I have tried so far are not
really clear. *They are amber color, and they also stain and darken the wood
grain.

Here are my two questions:

1) I am interested in clear Moisture Cure Urethane (one brand is made by
Garco) -- but I can't find anywhere to buy it. *It is supposed to be truly
clear. *I know it is super volatile and maybe that's why it is not easily
available. *I can apparently buy it online, but then I have to wait 4 to 14
days for it to arrive. *Does anyone know where I can go in person and buy
this stuff? *I am in New Jersey near Philadelphia, PA.

2) I haven't tested out water-based polyurethane products yet. *I get the
impression that they can be more clear than oil-based polyurethane. *MinWax
sells a clear water-based base coat and a clear water-based polyurethane
that goes over the base coat. *The clear base coat is supposed to seal the
tannins (or something like that) in the wood so it doesn't darken, and then
hopefully the top coat won't darken the wood when it is applied.

Are water-based polyurethane finishes okay forhardwoodfloors? *Are they
durable enough compared to oil-based polyurethanes? *Are there any special
cleaning requirements or instructions for water-based finishes that are
different than for oil-based polyurethane finishes?

Can I later cover a water-based polyurethane finish with an oil-basedhttp
polyurethane finish? *I think the answer to that one is "no", but I thought
I would ask anyway.

use a matt finish, the best wat to get an almost in visible finish
Check out
http://www.brierleymills.co.uk/index.php