Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? Long. and lat. about the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay.
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above (power,
phone, CATV). I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any cable
outside. I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have) instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. Is that
correct? Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? Do I need to run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Thanks in advance for any help,

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? Long. and lat. about the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay.
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above (power,
phone, CATV). I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any cable
outside. I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have) instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. Is that
correct? Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? Do I need to run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Thanks in advance for any help,

--
Bobby G.


Hi,
If I were you, I'd go wireless. No cables to worry about.
Any particular reason you want wired?

Robert Green wrote:
Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? Long. and lat. about the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay.
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above (power,
phone, CATV). I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any cable
outside. I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have) instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. Is that
correct? Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? Do I need to run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Run 24VAC to the gate, and then use a 24VAC to 12VDC converter, i.e.
Google "SECUREMAX: AT12015".

For low voltage wiring, you don't need to go very deep, 6-8" and
hopefully gas and water lines are a lot deeper than that.

Conduit is nice, to keep the wires clean and together and protected,
though low voltage outdoor wiring is often just buried without conduit
(i.e. sprinkler valve wiring). I put it inside PVC pipe.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? Long. and lat. about
the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay.
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above
(power,
phone, CATV). I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any
cable
outside. I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have)
instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. Is
that
correct? Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? Do I need to
run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior
use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many
volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to
get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Thanks in advance for any help,

--
Bobby G.


Hi,
If I were you, I'd go wireless. No cables to worry about.
Any particular reason you want wired?

Yes.

Thanks.

--
Bobby G.

"SMS" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many
volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to
get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Run 24VAC to the gate, and then use a 24VAC to 12VDC converter, i.e.
Google "SECUREMAX: AT12015".

Is it that long a run that I'll be losing significant amounts of power using
DC? I already have a variable voltage switching power supply gizmo I intend
to use for the project that uses one coaxial cable to send audio, video and
power. It comes with a variable voltage power supply and an adapter on each
end to inject and extract the audio and video from the cable.

Will there be a substantial or even significant savings in my electric bill
gained by using 24AC and then converting it to DC? Is the conversion done
to save power or mostly to deal with the problem of voltage drop over long
runs of DC cable? I've seen these devices in CCTV catalogs, so it seems
like they are a popular solution. I'd just like to understand the tradeoffs
a little better.

For low voltage wiring, you don't need to go very deep, 6-8" and
hopefully gas and water lines are a lot deeper than that.

Good. I've read all sorts of disaster stories about frost heaving the
ground and unburying the wires in some electrical nightmare version of the
movie Poltergeist. I just don't want to one day catch the lawnmower up in
wires that have unburied themselves.

Conduit is nice, to keep the wires clean and together and protected,
though low voltage outdoor wiring is often just buried without conduit
(i.e. sprinkler valve wiring). I put it inside PVC pipe.

Conduit's going to add to the cost and complexity of the job, and I'd like
to avoid it if burial grade cable is "good enough" to get the job done.

Thanks for your input!

--
Bobby G.

Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? Long. and lat. about
the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay.
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above
(power,
phone, CATV). I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any cable
outside. I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have) instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. Is
that
correct? Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? Do I need to
run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to get
12VDC at the front gate?)


*Call 811 to request a utility markdown of the property before digging. I
would run the conduit at least 18" deep. In order to measure voltage drop
you would need to put a load on the wire. If possible I would run 120 volts
out to the location and step down the voltage there. Separate power and
communication cables. Use wires rated for wet location use. Oversize your
conduits for ease of pulling. Keep your bends to four 90's or less. Use at
least PVC schedule 40, but schedule 80 has a thicker wall.

I can't imagine digging a trench with a post hole digger. A backhoe does an
excellent job of digging a nice deep and wide trench. When that is not
available I use a landscape contractor. They are use to digging holes and
their labor charges are quite reasonable. Call around to rental companies
to get an idea of trencher costs. It should only take a few hours, but you
will spend an entire day picking up the machine, trenching and then
returning it. Get a bigger machine then what you think you need. It will
come in handy when you hit rocks.

Robert Green wrote:
"SMS" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many
volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to
get
12VDC at the front gate?)
Run 24VAC to the gate, and then use a 24VAC to 12VDC converter, i.e.
Google "SECUREMAX: AT12015".

Is it that long a run that I'll be losing significant amounts of power using
DC? I already have a variable voltage switching power supply gizmo I intend
to use for the project that uses one coaxial cable to send audio, video and
power. It comes with a variable voltage power supply and an adapter on each
end to inject and extract the audio and video from the cable.

Then that's different. I was assuming you were sending the power
separately. Generally it's better to regulate DC close to where you'll
be needing it because of the high I squared R losses. But if you can
jack up the voltage at the source then that's fine.

Good. I've read all sorts of disaster stories about frost heaving the
ground and unburying the wires in some electrical nightmare version of the
movie Poltergeist. I just don't want to one day catch the lawnmower up in
wires that have unburied themselves.

Yeah, that's why I enclose my sprinkler valve wirings in conduit or just
plain PVC. I had to put in some long runs of wire to valves in the back
yard.

Conduit's going to add to the cost and complexity of the job, and I'd like
to avoid it if burial grade cable is "good enough" to get the job done.

I think it would make the job easier. You don't need to use real conduit
for low voltage. Use plain schedule 40 PVC which is very cheap. You
don't even have to glue it with PVC cement. Use some short brass screws
on the couplings. Buy 20' lengths of PVC and you'll only need three of them.

In article ,
SMS wrote:


Generally it's better to regulate DC close to where you'll
be needing it because of the high I squared R losses.


I squared R losses in *fifty feet* of wire used to power a camera and an
intercom? Good grief. This thing is getting way too complicated, on a
number of fronts. Someone's already telling him to rent a backhoe, for
christ's sake. OP can dig an 8" deep trench 50 feet long in an hour with
a pointy shovel, put in some PVC pipe and be done with it.

In article , Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
SMS wrote:


Generally it's better to regulate DC close to where you'll
be needing it because of the high I squared R losses.


I squared R losses in *fifty feet* of wire used to power a camera and an
intercom? Good grief. This thing is getting way too complicated, on a
number of fronts. Someone's already telling him to rent a backhoe, for
christ's sake. OP can dig an 8" deep trench 50 feet long in an hour with
a pointy shovel, put in some PVC pipe and be done with it.

Damn straight. You can add to that "way too complicated" list the OP's
question about savings on his electric bill from using AC and a transformer
vs. DC -- the difference is about as significant as a fart in a hurricane.

On Aug 27, 12:02*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? *Long. and lat. about the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay.
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above (power,
phone, CATV). *I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any cable
outside. *I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. * Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have) instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. *Is that
correct? *Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? *Do I need to run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Thanks in advance for any help,

--
Bobby G.

I have no idea how 18GA speaker wire is gonna work for an intercom, no
intercom made in the last 40 years works on 8 ohm speakers.

Additionally there are better ways to do the video than modulating a
camera onto what, RG59U? For all that work you should just use RG6
quad shield.

I would seriosly just look at getting AC power out to there above the
priority of the LV wires. Is there a lamppost nearby to tap off?

If you do insist to make a run out there then I'd use the 1.5 inch
black coiled stuff with no joints in the run (what the sprinklers
use). No need to trench, just rent the machine that pulls it through
the ground at an 8 inch depth (Google how sprinklers are installed).

Pulling wire/coax through any plastic tubing is a hassle, its sticky
and binds up easily especially on a run that long. Especially that
speaker wire you speak of, that will bind up so tight you'll be lucky
to pull it the first 15 feet, believe me speaker wire will bind up
solid even on a straight pull, forget a curve. Additionally you wont
be able to grease the wire enough with pulling silicone, so you may
want to consider installing a valve box at the half-way point as a
pull box or even two valve boxes.

I still think you would be better off just running power with UF alone
then go entirely wireless with intercom, video, gate control, motion
sensors, headlight sensor, vehicle sensor, etc. The reliability/
security of wireless is greatly improved over the last 5 years.

On Aug 27, 12:34*pm, windcrest wrote:
On Aug 27, 12:02*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:





Can anyone point me to a good site that would prepare me for the task of
burying about 50' of video, audio and power cable? *Long. and lat. about the
same as the President's (as in near Wash, DC) so the soil is rocky clay..
Gas lines and water lines are below ground, everything else is above (power,
phone, CATV). *I want to run a 12V power cable, two or three RG59U CCTV
cables and some 18ga speaker wire for the intercom box..

Ground is nice and wet and good for digging, but I've never run any cable
outside. *I susect the best tool would be to rent a trencher and dig,
troglodyte, did. * Anyone able to tell me what it's going to cost and if
it's even reasonable to consider a post hole digger (which I have) instead
of a trencher to do the job?

Am I going to have to go deep enough to have to call MISSUTILITY (if she
hasn't been laid off along with everyone else!)?

I assume that anything over a few wires needs to be run in conduit. *Is that
correct? *Are there different kinds of conduit for burial? *Do I need to run
burial grade cable in conduit or will conduit protect normal interior use
cable?

Can I calculate the voltage drop just by observation? (Measure battery
voltage at one end and then through the run of wire to see how many volts
remain and how much more than 12VDC I need to push through the wire to get
12VDC at the front gate?)

Thanks in advance for any help,

--
Bobby G.

I have no idea how 18GA speaker wire is gonna work for an intercom, no
intercom made in the last 40 years works on 8 ohm speakers.

Additionally there are better ways to do the video than modulating a
camera onto what, RG59U? *For all that work you should just use RG6
quad shield.

I would seriosly just look at getting AC power out to there above the
priority of the LV wires. *Is there a lamppost nearby to tap off?

If you do insist to make a run out there then I'd use the 1.5 inch
black coiled stuff with no joints in the run (what the sprinklers
use). *No need to trench, just rent the machine that pulls it through
the ground at an 8 inch depth (Google how sprinklers are installed).

Pulling wire/coax through any plastic tubing is a hassle, its sticky
and binds up easily especially on a run that long. *Especially that
speaker wire you speak of, that will bind up so tight you'll be lucky
to pull it the first 15 feet, believe me speaker wire will bind up
solid even on a straight pull, forget a curve. *Additionally you wont
be able to grease the wire enough with pulling silicone, so you may
want to consider installing a valve box at the half-way point as a
pull box or even two valve boxes.

I still think you would be better off just running power with UF alone
then go entirely wireless with intercom, video, gate control, motion
sensors, headlight sensor, vehicle sensor, etc. *The reliability/
security of wireless is greatly improved over the last 5 years.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you just want to get something below the surface fast and cheap use
a gas edger. It will dig a trench a couple inches deep. There are no
depth requirements for low voltage. Everything else will be way down
so you don't need to get the utlities marked if you just go down a few
inches.

"SMS" wrote in message news:4a9660d3$0$1583
Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Run 24VAC to the gate, and then use a 24VAC to 12VDC converter, i.e.
Google "SECUREMAX: AT12015".

Is it that long a run that I'll be losing significant amounts of power
using
DC? I already have a variable voltage switching power supply gizmo I
intend
to use for the project that uses one coaxial cable to send audio, video
and
power. It comes with a variable voltage power supply and an adapter on
each
end to inject and extract the audio and video from the cable.

Then that's different. I was assuming you were sending the power
separately. Generally it's better to regulate DC close to where you'll
be needing it because of the high I squared R losses. But if you can
jack up the voltage at the source then that's fine.

If there was a power savings payoff for going the AC route, I'd go for it,
but for a 50' run I doubt it would matter. I just need to be able to adjust
the output properly (it's a little slotted dial on the case of the power
supply) so I don't blow the camera's electronics. I guess I'll test it with
a 12V tailight bulb or load similar to the camera's draw before I plug in
the camera.

Good. I've read all sorts of disaster stories about frost heaving the
ground and unburying the wires in some electrical nightmare version of
the
movie Poltergeist. I just don't want to one day catch the lawnmower up
in
wires that have unburied themselves.

Yeah, that's why I enclose my sprinkler valve wirings in conduit or just
plain PVC. I had to put in some long runs of wire to valves in the back
yard.

Around here Comcast is legendary for "surface mounting" their cable by
laying cable right on the ground until one of their burial crews can get to
it. Sometimes they don't get to it before trauma occurs. I want to have
everything ready to do this all at once.

Conduit's going to add to the cost and complexity of the job, and I'd
like
to avoid it if burial grade cable is "good enough" to get the job done.

I think it would make the job easier. You don't need to use real conduit
for low voltage. Use plain schedule 40 PVC which is very cheap. You
don't even have to glue it with PVC cement. Use some short brass screws
on the couplings. Buy 20' lengths of PVC and you'll only need three of
them.

Actually, I have lots of left over central vac tubing that I think will make
very nice conduit and eliminate the need to store the excess. Good idea.
Thanks!

--
Bobby G.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:h763ri$5k1

stuff snipped

I squared R losses in *fifty feet* of wire used to power a camera and an
intercom? Good grief. This thing is getting way too complicated, on a
number of fronts. Someone's already telling him to rent a backhoe, for
christ's sake. OP can dig an 8" deep trench 50 feet long in an hour with
a pointy shovel, put in some PVC pipe and be done with it.

Damn straight. You can add to that "way too complicated" list the OP's
question about savings on his electric bill from using AC and a
transformer
vs. DC -- the difference is about as significant as a fart in a hurricane.

I'm not electronics engineer so I couldn't hazard a guess whether I'd be
heating up the ground unnecessarily with DC voltage fall-off so I appreciate
the info people have provided. It just wouldn't be Usenet without "mission
creep." (-: It's how we ended up fighting an 8 year war executing a simple
search warrant for WMD's that should have been over as soon as we exploded
anything that even smelled of a nuke program and poured a couple of cubic
yards of cement down Saddam's tiger hole. "Just sealing up some hazardous
waste, folks!" It's the American Way.

We're not anywhere *near* the totally useless and off-topice comment zone.
That usually appears when the quote nesting is at least this deep
and is almost certainly about some old, unsettled grudgefight than the
current topic. Unfortunately, I'm guessing by using the word "Saddam" we'll
get there sooner than later. Oh well, that's Usenet!

I won't be renting any backhoes, for certain, but I'd like to know if
there's a neater, faster, less-muscle needed way of digging a 50' trench.
I'm betting it's a great job for some local pre-juvenile delinquents and
once I know what it costs to rent a machine to do it, I'll have a better
idea how much I should pay said underage labor. (-: As I've said before,
I've never buried anything except a few deceased pets and a fencepost or two
so I need all the information I can gather about digging wire trenches. If
it turns out I do rent a machine, I might end up using it to bury the new
sump pump pipe that's sitting on the back lawn as if Comcast's best had
installed it. (-:

I guess I should ask how cable companies and other big cable buriers get
their cables underground. As I said, with Comcast, I've never actually
*seen* them bury a cable. They just leave them lying across people's lawns
and then, one day, they're gone.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
snip
I guess I should ask how cable companies and other big cable buriers get
their cables underground. As I said, with Comcast, I've never actually
*seen* them bury a cable. They just leave them lying across people's
lawns
and then, one day, they're gone.

--
Bobby G.

dags 'vibrating plow'

http://www.toro.com/professional/sws...und/22910.html

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

I'd like to know if
there's a neater, faster, less-muscle needed way of digging a 50' trench.

How much less muscle do you want? In the time you've spent writing about
this project, it could be done. The trench only has to be 2" wide by 6"
or 8" deep. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt when I suggested
an hour. A 90 yr. old paraplegic could do it with a wooden spoon. If
it's too daunting for you, sure, hire a kid. Give him a shovel and/or a
pick and $20. By the time you've had two beers he'll be done.

"windcrest" wrote in message
...
On Aug 27, 12:02 am, "Robert Green"
wrote:


stuff snipped

I have no idea how 18GA speaker wire is gonna work for an intercom

I do, it will be just fine.

no intercom made in the last 40 years works on 8 ohm speakers.

I've got a whole set of RatShack units that work quite nicely over speaker
wire and I don't believe they're a day over 20 years old. (-: I intend to
pop out the components and mount them in a louvered stainless box I have
lying around that I know is even older because it was recovered from a fire
in 1980! I also have a little mike with a built in amp from Ebay today for
$3.65 (shipping included!!!) that I might decide to use as the sending
microphone if the RatShack unit doesn't sound clear enough after I
transplant it.

Truthfully, sometimes it's to my advantage (and amusement) if Jehovah's
Witnesses can't hear me clearly even though I can hear them. The Shack
I-com actually runs on 22GA stranded wire, but it's delicate wire and I
wouldn't want to depend on it surviving a conduit leak.

Additionally there are better ways to do the video than modulating a
camera onto what, RG59U? For all that work you should just use RG6
quad shield.

RG6QS is way, way overkill for baseband CCTV work. RG59U has been working
just fine and I have rolls and rolls of it. I use QS for pumping the
incoming broadband CATV feed around the house but it would be a waste of
money using it for low-bandwidth black and white board cams.

I would seriosly just look at getting AC power out to there above the
priority of the LV wires. Is there a lamppost nearby to tap off?

Doing that means working to code, inspection hassles, potential shock issues
and things I'm not willing to get into when I am certain what I have planned
will work quite nicely. AC power to the post would only complicate things
and add serious expense, hassle and potential lethality to the project. The
lamp post is not meant to really function as a lamp - it's there to mostly
house all the aforementioned components in something with reasonable SAF. I
will probably mount a photocell activated LED or some other 12VDC type of
light inside the post to provide just enough illumination to light up a face
at night. There's a very powerful streetlight just across the road that
provides more than enough illumination.

If you do insist to make a run out there then I'd use the 1.5 inch
black coiled stuff with no joints in the run (what the sprinklers
use). No need to trench, just rent the machine that pulls it through
the ground at an 8 inch depth (Google how sprinklers are installed).

That sounds like an interesting idea if my underage labor force doesn't work
out. I've seen that sort of machine on TOH. Not sure it would work in this
mix of clay and rock, but I will certainly look into it. IIRC, that
machine's best feature is its ability to run under driveways and walkways
that don't lend themselves to open trenchwork. I am not facing that sort of
problem. I've got an unimpeded run of dirt to the proposed location of the
lamp post.

Pulling wire/coax through any plastic tubing is a hassle, its sticky
and binds up easily especially on a run that long. Especially that
speaker wire you speak of, that will bind up so tight you'll be lucky
to pull it the first 15 feet, believe me speaker wire will bind up
solid even on a straight pull, forget a curve. Additionally you wont
be able to grease the wire enough with pulling silicone, so you may
want to consider installing a valve box at the half-way point as a
pull box or even two valve boxes.

I'm probably going to cheat and pull the wire through while the conduit is
still above ground. I don't anticipate much trouble that way although I
agree once it's in ground, pulling any more cables or replacing any that go
bad will not be a cakewalk.

I still think you would be better off just running power with UF alone
then go entirely wireless with intercom, video, gate control, motion
sensors, headlight sensor, vehicle sensor, etc. The reliability/
security of wireless is greatly improved over the last 5 years.

In the DC area, there have been some serious wireless issues with garage
openers, car key fobs and other gear. There are several military
installations that have been working on jamming IED's - wireless IED's - and
every once in a while, RF gear mysteriously stops working around here. With
all the RF spectrum reallocation occuring recently, I'm not sure what
low-power "must accept all interference" devices will stay working
throughout the next five years. Apparently, when the local garage door
openers began to get "stepped on" the Air Force said "tough nougies" we own
the frequency, go pound sand.

When the signal absolutely, positively has to get there, wired is the only
way to go. At least IMHO. Wireless video is especially crappy around here
and none of the cheap 2.4GHz gear works well enough to consider unless you
build your own hi-efficiency yagi antennas. I've done that and can testify
that they ain't pretty and have seriously low SAF. The upside was that I
was able to catch the local crackhead who had been breaking into cars by
installing a wireless cam inside my van.

So I agree: wireless has its place, just not in this application. The
wireless CCTV gear that *does* work well enough for this app requires a
license to operate and costs real $$$. If renting a trencher could make or
break this project pricewise, effective wireless is way, way out of the
picture.

I am trying to limit the value of any items mounted on the lamp post in case
someone decides to run off with it or run into it with their car. Don't
laugh - the next door neighbor's house is at the end of the road at a
T-intersection and they already have had a car plow into their living room.
The worst part is that the cops that came weren't even surprised. They said
people run into houses all the time, especially around steep curves or at T
intersections where the road just runs out.

The little board cameras I am using cost less than 12 bucks (!!!) from
Supercircuits and are more than adequate for the task. They are so cheap
that I am planning to mount one in each pane of the lamp to give me a four
way view. They'll be feeding into a 16CH MUX that I got for $45 on Ebay
that used to sell for $600 just a few years ago!!!

I might look into using baluns to reduce the four RG59U cables that would
require to a single CAT 5 run becauseCCTV balun components have gotten
incredibly cheap in the last few years, but the truth is, doing that would
probably cost the same as running four discrete coax cables.

I might pull a CAT-5 run to the lamp post just as insurance and to allow me
to add other gear I haven't thought of yet like a sensor to determine if the
gate has been opened or a PIR to detect when people approach the lamp post.
With a little early warning I might finally be able to catch the FedEx man
before he can rush up to the door and leave a door tag saying "we missed
you." (-: What was I saying about "mission creep?"

Thanks for your input. I'll be googling sprinkler installation tools
shortly.

--
Bobby G.

"jamesgangnc" wrote in message news:d2e3bd3c-a6b1-

stuff snipped

If you just want to get something below the surface fast and cheap use
a gas edger. It will dig a trench a couple inches deep. There are no
depth requirements for low voltage. Everything else will be way down
so you don't need to get the utlities marked if you just go down a few
inches.

Are we talking about the stuff with the rotating nylon wire? I've only got
an electric one and I don't think it would dig much of a trench because it
can hardly trim weeds it's so anemic. I assume the gas ones have much more
HP and perhaps a different cutting head. Would it dig enough of a trench to
be able to lay 2" drain pipe as a conduit? If the wires are all encased,
I'd be less concerned about them heaving up and getting caught in the mower
blade.

--
Bobby G.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message news:4a965b6c$0

stuff snipped

*Call 811 to request a utility markdown of the property before digging. I
would run the conduit at least 18" deep. In order to measure voltage drop
you would need to put a load on the wire. If possible I would run 120
volts
out to the location and step down the voltage there. Separate power and
communication cables. Use wires rated for wet location use. Oversize
your
conduits for ease of pulling. Keep your bends to four 90's or less. Use
at
least PVC schedule 40, but schedule 80 has a thicker wall.

If I go that deep, I'll certainly need power-assisted digging. As mentioned
elsewhere, it's going to be all low-voltage and you've pointed out a good
reason - running com and video with AC power is asking for interference
problems like hum and slow rolling video lines..

I can't imagine digging a trench with a post hole digger.

I can imagine it, but I don't like what I am imagining: a few dozen
mosquito bites, a few tubes of Ben-gay ointment, arms as sore as a legless
man after pulling himself to the top of Mt Everest by rope and a popped
tendon or ligament I didn't even know I had before I broke it. )-:

A backhoe does an
excellent job of digging a nice deep and wide trench. When that is not
available I use a landscape contractor. They are use to digging holes and
their labor charges are quite reasonable.

I have a landscaper that just might be able to do it for less than the
rental fees and hassle of getting a trencher of some kind. If I had access
to enough M-80's I could dig a trench the way they once proposed building a
new Panama canal using nukes. On second thought, maybe I had better stick
with casual labor since all the landscapers I know have been going hungry.
Landscaping seems to be one of the first expenses to get chopped in a
recession. nd the local cops take a dim view of explosive digging

Call around to rental companies
to get an idea of trencher costs. It should only take a few hours, but
you
will spend an entire day picking up the machine, trenching and then
returning it.

Yes, it's one of the reasons hiring a landscaper do it sounds better and
better. I've been surfing while I am writing this and Eureka! -- I just
found an outfit that would charge $90 to dig a 100' trench. All I do is
call the Miss Utility people and get the property "blue staked" and then
mark where I want the trench with white spray paint. At $90 (barring some
obscene set up fee I have yet to see) I can have the sump pump hose buried
AND run the cables I need for very little effort. Renting a trencher's got
to cost way more and waste incredible amounts of time learning to use it,
jackassing it back and forth, etc. I had a neighbor rent a Bobcat once and
all I'll say is I know why they are so well safety caged.

Only small problem with:

http://www.trenchmasters.com/index.html

They are in Arizona and I'm near Wash, DC. I suspect that I can find
rent-a-trencher (and operator!) company around here. (Hasn't the whole
world been sub-contracted by now?) Probably will cost a bit more here than
AZ, but even $2 a foot might be reasonable for $100 feet of work.

Get a bigger machine then what you think you need. It will
come in handy when you hit rocks.

What's the likelihood of damaging (and having to pay for) some part of an
expensive trenching machine by hitting a rock? That alone could put the
kibosh on powered rental digging solution. I use an electric drill and a
dirt auger when I put down termite stakes and half the holes have to be
restarted because of rocks. This isn't digging-friendly soil. I think from
here on out, I'll be looking for companies who do the same in my area.

I love the internet. I thinking I'm within striking distance of the
solution after all the leads I got here.

Thanks for the input, John! Any relation to Marilyn Grabowski, the famous
Playboy photo editor?

--
Bobby G.

*Call 811 to request a utility markdown of the property before digging.
I
would run the conduit at least 18" deep. In order to measure voltage
drop
you would need to put a load on the wire. If possible I would run 120
volts
out to the location and step down the voltage there. Separate power and
communication cables. Use wires rated for wet location use. Oversize
your
conduits for ease of pulling. Keep your bends to four 90's or less. Use
at
least PVC schedule 40, but schedule 80 has a thicker wall.

If I go that deep, I'll certainly need power-assisted digging. As
mentioned
elsewhere, it's going to be all low-voltage and you've pointed out a good
reason - running com and video with AC power is asking for interference
problems like hum and slow rolling video lines..

I can't imagine digging a trench with a post hole digger.

I can imagine it, but I don't like what I am imagining: a few dozen
mosquito bites, a few tubes of Ben-gay ointment, arms as sore as a legless
man after pulling himself to the top of Mt Everest by rope and a popped
tendon or ligament I didn't even know I had before I broke it. )-:

A backhoe does an
excellent job of digging a nice deep and wide trench. When that is not
available I use a landscape contractor. They are use to digging holes
and
their labor charges are quite reasonable.

I have a landscaper that just might be able to do it for less than the
rental fees and hassle of getting a trencher of some kind. If I had
access
to enough M-80's I could dig a trench the way they once proposed building
a
new Panama canal using nukes. On second thought, maybe I had better stick
with casual labor since all the landscapers I know have been going hungry.
Landscaping seems to be one of the first expenses to get chopped in a
recession. nd the local cops take a dim view of explosive digging

Call around to rental companies
to get an idea of trencher costs. It should only take a few hours, but
you
will spend an entire day picking up the machine, trenching and then
returning it.

Yes, it's one of the reasons hiring a landscaper do it sounds better and
better. I've been surfing while I am writing this and Eureka! -- I just
found an outfit that would charge $90 to dig a 100' trench. All I do is
call the Miss Utility people and get the property "blue staked" and then
mark where I want the trench with white spray paint. At $90 (barring some
obscene set up fee I have yet to see) I can have the sump pump hose buried
AND run the cables I need for very little effort. Renting a trencher's
got
to cost way more and waste incredible amounts of time learning to use it,
jackassing it back and forth, etc. I had a neighbor rent a Bobcat once
and
all I'll say is I know why they are so well safety caged.

Only small problem with:

http://www.trenchmasters.com/index.html

They are in Arizona and I'm near Wash, DC. I suspect that I can find
rent-a-trencher (and operator!) company around here. (Hasn't the whole
world been sub-contracted by now?) Probably will cost a bit more here
than
AZ, but even $2 a foot might be reasonable for $100 feet of work.

Get a bigger machine then what you think you need. It will
come in handy when you hit rocks.

What's the likelihood of damaging (and having to pay for) some part of an
expensive trenching machine by hitting a rock? That alone could put the
kibosh on powered rental digging solution. I use an electric drill and a
dirt auger when I put down termite stakes and half the holes have to be
restarted because of rocks. This isn't digging-friendly soil. I think
from
here on out, I'll be looking for companies who do the same in my area.

I love the internet. I thinking I'm within striking distance of the
solution after all the leads I got here.

Thanks for the input, John! Any relation to Marilyn Grabowski, the famous
Playboy photo editor?


*I know of her, but we have never met to discuss genealogy. It seems
Grabowski is the Polish version of Smith.

Good luck with project. I forgot to mention in my earlier post of a company
called Clifford in Vermont. They specialize in telecommunications cable and
tools among other things. If there is such a thing as direct burial CATV
wire they would have it.

"charlie" wrote in message

I guess I should ask how cable companies and other big cable buriers get
their cables underground.

dags 'vibrating plow'

http://www.toro.com/professional/sws...und/22910.html

So that's how they do it. Interesting to see how the design has evolved to
meet the challenges. Cable spoolers, sod slitters - looks cool. Thanks!

--
Bobby G.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message news:4a970b03$0

stuff snipped

Thanks for the input, John! Any relation to Marilyn Grabowski, the
famous
Playboy photo editor?

*I know of her, but we have never met to discuss genealogy. It seems
Grabowski is the Polish version of Smith.

Oops! I can't help myself from asking. I've met the niece of the inventor
of the transistor and the great-great grandson of one of the pioneers of
submarine warfare by asking. Of course, there have been many more misses
than hits.

I found a local (enough) rental place that rents trenching equipment and
found a few possibilities:

Ditch Witch 1230
4 HOURS$ 75.00
DAY$ 125.00

Ditch Witch 1820
4 HOURS$ 100.00
DAY$ 150.00

Ditch Witch 3700
DAY$ 295.00

Ditch Witch RT40
DAY$ 325.00

Cable Plow
DAY$ 200.00
WEEK$ 700.00

It's hard to tell which model will do the best job. The more expensive the
rental, the larger the machine, the more wheels and more things sticking out
of them. I'm still inclined to look for a trenching contractor who could
zip in and do the job in less time than it would take me to fill out the
rental form!

I've been Googling sprinkler installation stories and many first time
renters report these machines are heavy, hard to get from the rental store
to the house and back, and have lots of surprises for the amateur, my
favorite of which was the guy who found a buried clothesline with his rented
trencher. Having once sucked an extension cord into a snowblower, it
brought back less than fond memories. Another interesting report talked
about the small trenchers digging such a narrow trench that they had to be
widened by hand. The search continues . . .

Good luck with project. I forgot to mention in my earlier post of a
company
called Clifford in Vermont. They specialize in telecommunications cable
and
tools among other things. If there is such a thing as direct burial CATV
wire they would have it.

Thanks - I've heard of them. I'll give them a look-see.

--
Bobby G.