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#1
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
I was just reading an article about the "importance" of a thermal
expansion tank to extend the lifetime of water heaters, T&P release valves, hot water fixtures, etc. On the other hand, we have never had one in our house or where I grew up and I haven't "noticed" any problems. Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Alternatively, is there enough "give" either forward through the hot water plumbing or backward through the cold water plumbing (and ultimately maybe even back into the city mains) to allow sufficient room for expansion? If a thermal expansion tank is recommended, any suggestions on brands, models and sizes? |
#2
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On Jul 19, 9:16*pm, blueman wrote:
I was just reading an article about the "importance" of a thermal expansion tank to extend the lifetime of water heaters, T&P release valves, hot water fixtures, etc. On the other hand, we have never had one in our house or where I grew up and I haven't "noticed" any problems. Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Alternatively, is there enough "give" either forward through the hot water plumbing or backward through the cold water plumbing (and ultimately maybe even back into the city mains) to allow sufficient room for expansion? If a thermal expansion tank is recommended, any suggestions on brands, models and sizes? My understanding & experience is that an expansion tank is only needed when your house is isolated from city supply by some sort of backflow prevention device. With such a device installed, cold water coming into your system to replace hot water consumed & being heated by the water heater can generate enough pressure to pop your water heater T&P valve. The only signifant "give" in your systems is back flow into the city main. If you have a back flow prevention device then you need a relief valve (set higher than citty pressure plus hammer spikes & lower than water heater Y&P valve) or an expansion tank. If oyu have an open system (backk flow into main) forget the expansion tank....not gonna do much. cheers Bob |
#3
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
replying to fftt, dp3 wrote:
Even if the system is closed I would ask of the expansion of the steel tank itself somewhat matches any water expansion? additionally if there is a anti-water-hammer device (i.e., shock absorber) anywhere in the system (often found at washing machine or shower or sometimes whole house - simply a vertical pipe filled with air) then I wuold think a thermal expansion tank is not actually needed. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ry-384734-.htm |
#4
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 2:44:15 PM UTC-5, dp3 wrote:
replying to fftt, dp3 wrote: Even if the system is closed I would ask of the expansion of the steel tank itself somewhat matches any water expansion? additionally if there is a anti-water-hammer device (i.e., shock absorber) anywhere in the system (often found at washing machine or shower or sometimes whole house - simply a vertical pipe filled with air) then I wuold think a thermal expansion tank is not actually needed. A vertical pipe filled with air isn't going to stay filled with air for long. The air winds up dissolving into the water under pressure. That's why water storage tanks on pumps need either a mechanism to inject air as needed or a plastic bladder to separate the air and water. |
#5
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 2:44:15 PM UTC-5, dp3 wrote: replying to fftt, dp3 wrote: Even if the system is closed I would ask of the expansion of the steel tank itself somewhat matches any water expansion? additionally if there is a anti-water-hammer device (i.e., shock absorber) anywhere in the system (often found at washing machine or shower or sometimes whole house - simply a vertical pipe filled with air) then I wuold think a thermal expansion tank is not actually needed. A vertical pipe filled with air isn't going to stay filled with air for long. The air winds up dissolving into the water under pressure. That's why water storage tanks on pumps need either a mechanism to inject air as needed or a plastic bladder to separate the air and water. Took me a while to figure that out. I installed one since my pressure relief valve kept popping. Thats too many pounds. Don't like the projected life of only 6 years. Greg |
#6
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
"blueman" wrote in message
... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? If yes, then you must have an expansion tank otherwise the T&P valve on the water heater will get a lot of use. Water expands when it's heated, it has to go somewhere. If there's no anti-backflow valve in the system, don't bother with an expansion tank. |
#7
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
"Bob M." writes:
"blueman" wrote in message ... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? I am not aware that there is an anti-backflow valve though I imagine it could be built into the meter (which is one of those electronic ones that they then broadcast wirelessly). Is there any easy way to check by looking or would I need to call the city and/or try to find and look up a model number. If yes, then you must have an expansion tank otherwise the T&P valve on the water heater will get a lot of use. Water expands when it's heated, it has to go somewhere. If there's no anti-backflow valve in the system, don't bother with an expansion tank. Makes sense... |
#8
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
blueman wrote:
"Bob M." writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? I am not aware that there is an anti-backflow valve though I imagine it could be built into the meter (which is one of those electronic ones that they then broadcast wirelessly). Is there any easy way to check by looking or would I need to call the city and/or try to find and look up a model number. If yes, then you must have an expansion tank otherwise the T&P valve on the water heater will get a lot of use. Water expands when it's heated, it has to go somewhere. If there's no anti-backflow valve in the system, don't bother with an expansion tank. Makes sense... With the exception that 85 psi is already on the high side. Do you know what it is at say 4 AM when city wide usage is light? Ours creeps up to 120+ psi around then. I installed a regulator and a thermal expansion tank. Both are inexpensive and easy to install. The other think you notice is the expansion tank buffers little surges nicely. |
#9
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
"blueman" wrote in message
... "Bob M." writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? I am not aware that there is an anti-backflow valve though I imagine it could be built into the meter (which is one of those electronic ones that they then broadcast wirelessly). Is there any easy way to check by looking or would I need to call the city and/or try to find and look up a model number. If your T&P valve on the water heater hasn't sprayed scalding-hot water all over by now, then you don't have an anti-backflow valve (or DO have one, -and- an expansion tank). You would know by now. |
#10
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
"Bob M." writes:
"blueman" wrote in message ... "Bob M." writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? I am not aware that there is an anti-backflow valve though I imagine it could be built into the meter (which is one of those electronic ones that they then broadcast wirelessly). Is there any easy way to check by looking or would I need to call the city and/or try to find and look up a model number. If your T&P valve on the water heater hasn't sprayed scalding-hot water all over by now, then you don't have an anti-backflow valve (or DO have one, -and- an expansion tank). You would know by now. Well the water heater is 5 years old and not a drop has come out of the T&P valve and we definitely don't have an expansion tank... so I guess e don't have an anti-backflow valve then. Thanks |
#11
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On Jul 21, 10:05*pm, blueman wrote:
"Bob M." writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... "Bob M." writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? I am not aware that there is an anti-backflow valve though I imagine it could be built into the meter (which is one of those electronic ones that they then broadcast wirelessly). Is there any easy way to check by looking or would I need to call the city and/or try to find and look up a model number. If your T&P valve on the water heater hasn't sprayed scalding-hot water all over by now, then you don't have an anti-backflow valve (or DO have one, -and- an expansion tank). *You would know by now. Well the water heater is 5 years old and not a drop has come out of the T&P valve and we definitely don't have an expansion tank... so I guess e don't have an anti-backflow valve then. Thanks Buy this gauge http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFu...?pid=647&ref=1 at Home Depot for about $12. Put it on the drain of your water heater and open the drain valve. If the tattletale needle indicates over 90lbs the next day you have a closed plumbing system and need a thermal expansion tank. More info on thermal expansion here... http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/w...n.asp?catId=64 |
#12
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
Bob M. wrote:
"blueman" wrote in message ... "Bob M." writes: "blueman" wrote in message ... Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. 85 PSI is pretty high, you may want to invest in a pressure reducing valve. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Depends on your city water system. Do they have an anti-backflow valve in the water meter? I am not aware that there is an anti-backflow valve though I imagine it could be built into the meter (which is one of those electronic ones that they then broadcast wirelessly). Is there any easy way to check by looking or would I need to call the city and/or try to find and look up a model number. If your T&P valve on the water heater hasn't sprayed scalding-hot water all over by now, then you don't have an anti-backflow valve (or DO have one, -and- an expansion tank). You would know by now. I would say that it would indicate a definite maybe or not... |
#13
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
blueman wrote:
I was just reading an article about the "importance" of a thermal expansion tank to extend the lifetime of water heaters, T&P release valves, hot water fixtures, etc. On the other hand, we have never had one in our house or where I grew up and I haven't "noticed" any problems. Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Alternatively, is there enough "give" either forward through the hot water plumbing or backward through the cold water plumbing (and ultimately maybe even back into the city mains) to allow sufficient room for expansion? If a thermal expansion tank is recommended, any suggestions on brands, models and sizes? it's required only if you have a backflow preventer or check valve on your water supply. A pressure reducing valve usually acts as a BFP as well, so that counts. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel |
#14
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On Jul 20, 7:41�pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
blueman wrote: I was just reading an article about the "importance" of a thermal expansion tank to extend the lifetime of water heaters, T&P release valves, hot water fixtures, etc. On the other hand, we have never had one in our house or where I grew up and I haven't "noticed" any problems. Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Alternatively, is there enough "give" either forward through the hot water plumbing or backward through the cold water plumbing (and ultimately maybe even back into the city mains) to allow sufficient room for expansion? If a thermal expansion tank is recommended, any suggestions on brands, models and sizes? it's required only if you have a backflow preventer or check valve on your water supply. �A pressure reducing valve usually acts as a BFP as well, so that counts. nate -- replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Allegheny county in pittsburgh PA added pressure tank as mandatory with all new water heater installs They are also trying to require anti backflow valves be installed espically at home resale time |
#15
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
Nate Nagel writes:
blueman wrote: I was just reading an article about the "importance" of a thermal expansion tank to extend the lifetime of water heaters, T&P release valves, hot water fixtures, etc. On the other hand, we have never had one in our house or where I grew up and I haven't "noticed" any problems. Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Alternatively, is there enough "give" either forward through the hot water plumbing or backward through the cold water plumbing (and ultimately maybe even back into the city mains) to allow sufficient room for expansion? If a thermal expansion tank is recommended, any suggestions on brands, models and sizes? it's required only if you have a backflow preventer or check valve on your water supply. A pressure reducing valve usually acts as a BFP as well, so that counts. Which is one reason why I am not crazy in getting a pressure reducing valve even though our static pressure is 85-90 psi. |
#16
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:16:32 -0400, blueman wrote:
I was just reading an article about the "importance" of a thermal expansion tank to extend the lifetime of water heaters, T&P release valves, hot water fixtures, etc. On the other hand, we have never had one in our house or where I grew up and I haven't "noticed" any problems. Specifically, we have a 40 gallon gas-fired water heater on city water with 3/4" inlet and outlet to the water heater and copper plumbing throughout the house. We have 4 bathrooms and a kitchen. The city water pressure comes in at about 85 PSI. How important is it to add a thermal expansion tank or is this one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things? Alternatively, is there enough "give" either forward through the hot water plumbing or backward through the cold water plumbing (and ultimately maybe even back into the city mains) to allow sufficient room for expansion? If a thermal expansion tank is recommended, any suggestions on brands, models and sizes? Many jurisdictions are putting in backflow prevention at the meter. If yours has such you will need an expansion tank. We didn't have one for a few years, and it was definitely hard on fixtures. |
#17
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
replying to Chris Hill, Bobby wrote:
No hard and fast rules. I have one in this house, never did in my old one. My water pressure is 70 psi. When the water heats and is not running, pressure will go up to 100 psi. At that point the PRV will weep a bit. It would leak about a pint to a quart in a day depending on use. If you have any leak, put in the expansion tank. If no leak, not to worry, -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ry-384734-.htm |
#18
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
The guy ffft from a decade ago hit it.
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#19
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On 2/5/2017 3:14 PM, Bobby wrote:
replying to Chris Hill, Bobby wrote: No hard and fast rules. I have one in this house, never did in my old one. My water pressure is 70 psi. When the water heats and is not running, pressure will go up to 100 psi. At that point the PRV will weep a bit. It would leak about a pint to a quart in a day depending on use. If you have any leak, put in the expansion tank. If no leak, not to worry, When I moved into my house there was an expansion tank. When I had the hot water heater replaced recently the guy removed the expansion tank. When I questioned this he said the new water heater was designed to not need one. He was apparently right since the pressure does remain constant throughout the cycle. BTW I'm late to the thread so please excuse if already covered. |
#20
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
replying to blueman, tony wrote:
I do not see any benefits on the hot water heater. However if that was heater for house that would be different story. No expansion thank for water heater is unnecessary it will do nothing for you, 40 gallon water heater is little small for that size of house. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ry-384734-.htm |
#21
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 9:44:05 PM UTC-5, tony wrote:
replying to blueman, tony wrote: I do not see any benefits on the hot water heater. He just said that without an expansion tank, the pressure goes up to 100 PSI and the TPR valve starts leaking. However if that was heater for house that would be different story. No expansion thank for water heater is unnecessary it will do nothing for you, See above. |
#22
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Thermal Expansion tank for water heater - is it necessary?
On 2/6/2017 8:29 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 9:44:05 PM UTC-5, tony wrote: replying to blueman, tony wrote: I do not see any benefits on the hot water heater. He just said that without an expansion tank, the pressure goes up to 100 PSI and the TPR valve starts leaking. I solved that issue by removing my TPR Valve. |
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