Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a 200A main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she has a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice (there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal, safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire ($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it in the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.

Your thoughts? Thanks.

"Johnny_A_58" wrote in message
...
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a 200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

There is such a thing as feed through circuit breaker panels in which you
could bring the existing wires into the top of the panel and exit the line
to the kitchen from the side or bottom. They are more expensive than a
regular panel and I don't recall if they are available in single phase.

When you get the electrical permit from the town for the remodeling ask the
electrical inspector if it is okay. He will have the final word.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:06:54 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


"Johnny_A_58" wrote in message
...
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a 200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.

There is such a thing as feed through circuit breaker panels in which you
could bring the existing wires into the top of the panel and exit the line
to the kitchen from the side or bottom. They are more expensive than a
regular panel and I don't recall if they are available in single phase.

When you get the electrical permit from the town for the remodeling ask the
electrical inspector if it is okay. He will have the final word.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:06:54 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


"Johnny_A_58" wrote in message
...
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a
200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she
has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it
in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to
do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction
box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the
existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


Do you know of documented cases where fire occurred because of them, or do
you just not like them?



There is such a thing as feed through circuit breaker panels in which you
could bring the existing wires into the top of the panel and exit the line
to the kitchen from the side or bottom. They are more expensive than a
regular panel and I don't recall if they are available in single phase.

When you get the electrical permit from the town for the remodeling ask
the
electrical inspector if it is okay. He will have the final word.

"Johnny_A_58" wrote in message
...
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a 200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.

Your thoughts? Thanks.

What you propose sounds OK, although the devil's in the detail. There are
very specific tap rules,but if you have a panel with a main breaker outside,
and not just a service disconnect, you could run the feeder from there, if
it's closer than the sub panel in the kitchen.

Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a
200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she
has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it
in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to
do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction
box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the
existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


*Clare that's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that they were a
fire hazard. Do you have any supporting information on this. They are UL
listed.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 18:02:05 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:06:54 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


"Johnny_A_58" wrote in message
...
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a
200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she
has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it
in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to
do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction
box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the
existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


Do you know of documented cases where fire occurred because of them, or do
you just not like them?

For years CSA (Canadian Standards Association) would not allow them
for safety reasons. Not sure if that has changed in Canada yet. A
"positive mechanical connection" is required. That means bolted. I
have not seen an IDC (Insulation displacement connector) that can be
depended on - scotchlock connectors are time delayed faults anywhere
they are used. IDC ribbon connectors on computer cables were a pain
too, and they were low current (generally signal level) I refuse to
install computer power supplies equipped with IDC drive power cable
connectors because I've seen too many fail.


There is such a thing as feed through circuit breaker panels in which you
could bring the existing wires into the top of the panel and exit the line
to the kitchen from the side or bottom. They are more expensive than a
regular panel and I don't recall if they are available in single phase.

When you get the electrical permit from the town for the remodeling ask
the
electrical inspector if it is okay. He will have the final word.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 18:21:21 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a
200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she
has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it
in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to
do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction
box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the
existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


*Clare that's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that they were a
fire hazard. Do you have any supporting information on this. They are UL
listed.
Any information on how they are constructed/work? CSA did not approve
the ones I've seen in the past. CSA tends to be more fussy than UL.

Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a
200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an
SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she
has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of
juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is
legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from
the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of
wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in
it
in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to
do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction
box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would have
to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need
to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to be
big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce
through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the
existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


*Clare that's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that they were a
fire hazard. Do you have any supporting information on this. They are UL
listed.
Any information on how they are constructed/work? CSA did not approve
the ones I've seen in the past. CSA tends to be more fussy than UL.



*I've used these:
http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wc...categoryId=151

You can connect them on hot wires without using any insulated tools.

On May 16, 2:41*pm, Johnny_A_58 wrote:
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a 200A main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she has a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice (there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal, safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire ($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it in the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.

Your thoughts? Thanks.

Since your main breaker for the new panel is seventy amperes and the
feeder Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) is less then three times
that, the twenty five foot tap rule would apply. You could purchase
NSI/Polaris three port insulated splices; for instance; in the correct
gauge range, break the splices at the existing junction box, and tap
in your new seventy ampere feeder there. You can see the NSI/Polaris
insulated splices here http://www.nsipolaris.com/electrical/
insulatedconnectors/polarisblack.aspx Remember though that you are
allowed no more then twenty five wire feet to the terminals of the
panel supplied by the tap. Choose your new panels location
accordingly.

--
Tom Horne

On May 16, 4:50*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:06:54 -0400, "John Grabowski"



wrote:

"Johnny_A_58" wrote in message
...
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home, double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a 200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker in it in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.

*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you want to do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the junction box
in the basement with #4 wires. *I haven't read the rules for taps in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. *You would have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would need to
be close to the junction box. *Also the junction box would need to be big
enough for all of the wires. *There are insulated taps that pierce through
the insulation of conductors. *You would not need to take apart the existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.
There is such a thing as feed through circuit breaker panels in which you
could bring the existing wires into the top of the panel and exit the line
to the kitchen from the side or bottom. *They are more expensive than a
regular panel and I don't recall if they are available in single phase.

When you get the electrical permit from the town for the remodeling ask the
electrical inspector if it is okay. *He will have the final word.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


Which they are you talking about here? If your talking about the
insulating displacing connectors that are used to do hot taps on
larger energized conductors you must have worked with a different type
then I have. I don't recall the brand off the top of my head but they
were quite substantial. They were applied with wrenches and since I
had not seen them previous to the job I had to use them on I checked
them with a non contact thermometer attachment and my Fluke 87 III
meter and found no heating greater then the joined conductors even
with all of the heavier loads turned up so as to draw current. That
doesn't mean I think they're the correct material for this job but I
found nothing wrong with them.

--
Tom Horne

On May 17, 11:00*am, wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 07:34:40 -0400, "John Grabowski"

wrote:
*Clare that's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that they were a
fire hazard. *Do you have any supporting information on this. *They are UL
listed.
Any information on how they are constructed/work? CSA did not approve
the ones I've seen in the past. CSA tends to be more fussy than UL.

*I've used these:
http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wc...tegoryDisplay?...

You can connect them on hot wires without using any insulated tools.

CSA listed too.

Since he has simple access to the disconnect I would save some money
and use the feed through lugs tho.

If he uses the feed through lugs he would have to buy a two hundred
ampere panel. That is an expensive option when your just finishing a
basement.

--
Tom Horne

John Grabowski wrote:
Hi all, My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home,
double
wide, that was
put on a foundation. Outside there is a service entrance panel with a
200A
main breaker.
That feeds into the basement to an empty box where it is bolted to
an SE
cable that runs
the width of the house to the rear and up into the kitchen. There she
has
a 200A main panel
with all the branch circuits.

I want to finish the basement for her. Assuming there is plenty of
juice
(there are 7 spares
in the panel upstairs), here is what I would like to do if it is
legal,
safe and compliant with
NEC (in Maryland),

Shut off the Main 200A outside
Undo the bolted "feed thru" in the basement
Rebolt it along with another set of 4ga/4 wires and put another panel
there
to feed the basement.

I know I could just use a subpanel in the basement and feed it
from the
kitchen, but
if TWO main panels in parallel is legal, it would save me a lot of
wire
($$).
If I can do this, I would use a panel with say a 70A main breaker
in it
in
the basement
and not just a subpanel with main lugs.


*I'm not sure if I am understanding the entire scope of what you
want to
do.
I'm thinking that you want to tap off the 200 amp line from the
junction
box
in the basement with #4 wires. I haven't read the rules for taps
in the
current book yet, but I think that would be acceptable. You would
have to
bring those #4 wires directly into a 70 amp breaker and they would
need to
be close to the junction box. Also the junction box would need to
be big
enough for all of the wires. There are insulated taps that pierce
through
the insulation of conductors. You would not need to take apart the
existing
splices and then put them back together and retape them.

They exist, but you'd never catch me using them. Junk. Fire waiting to
happen.


*Clare that's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that they
were a
fire hazard. Do you have any supporting information on this. They
are UL
listed.
Any information on how they are constructed/work? CSA did not approve
the ones I've seen in the past. CSA tends to be more fussy than UL.



*I've used these:
http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wc...categoryId=151


You can connect them on hot wires without using any insulated tools.

I've used many of those Ilsco connectors in different sizes.
It's one of those things that makes you want to hug the guy
who invented them. *snicker*

TDD

On Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

http://www.nsipolaris.com/electrical/


I'd go with thePolaris Black units, but the insulation displacement
units may work perfectly when installed, and fail over time. They can
NOT be retorqued or released and re-used from what I remember of them.
They are self torque limiting(the head breaks off when tight). If the
copper deforms and looses compression contact you are DONE. With the
standard Polaris (or Burndy, or whatever) lug connector you can snug
up the connection 5, 10, or 20 years down the road with no problem.
You can dissassemble and re=assemble if required.

I'd never use an insulation displacement connector for ANY power
connection. You are, of course, free to use whatever you feel
comfortable.
Givennthe fact the OP can easily disconnect power to the circuit in
question using a "proper" lugged junction is, in my eyes, a
nobrainer.

wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

http://www.nsipolaris.com/electrical/


I'd go with thePolaris Black units, but the insulation displacement
units may work perfectly when installed, and fail over time. They can
NOT be retorqued or released and re-used from what I remember of them.
They are self torque limiting(the head breaks off when tight). If the
copper deforms and looses compression contact you are DONE. With the
standard Polaris (or Burndy, or whatever) lug connector you can snug
up the connection 5, 10, or 20 years down the road with no problem.
You can dissassemble and re=assemble if required.

I'd never use an insulation displacement connector for ANY power
connection. You are, of course, free to use whatever you feel
comfortable.
Givennthe fact the OP can easily disconnect power to the circuit in
question using a "proper" lugged junction is, in my eyes, a
nobrainer.

I'm not sure which connectors you're referring to
but if you can snap off the bolts on the Ilsco
connectors without using a long breaker bar, I
would not want to meet you in a dark alley and
have you mad at me. I've been using the Ilsco
connectors for many years and have yet to have
a problem with them indoors or out. I have used
the Polaris type connectors too and they do a very
good job. The connectors are designed for different
situations and that's the way I use them.

TDD

On Sun, 17 May 2009 13:31:55 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

http://www.nsipolaris.com/electrical/


I'd go with thePolaris Black units, but the insulation displacement
units may work perfectly when installed, and fail over time. They can
NOT be retorqued or released and re-used from what I remember of them.
They are self torque limiting(the head breaks off when tight). If the
copper deforms and looses compression contact you are DONE. With the
standard Polaris (or Burndy, or whatever) lug connector you can snug
up the connection 5, 10, or 20 years down the road with no problem.
You can dissassemble and re=assemble if required.

I'd never use an insulation displacement connector for ANY power
connection. You are, of course, free to use whatever you feel
comfortable.
Givennthe fact the OP can easily disconnect power to the circuit in
question using a "proper" lugged junction is, in my eyes, a
nobrainer.

I'm not sure which connectors you're referring to
but if you can snap off the bolts on the Ilsco
connectors without using a long breaker bar, I
would not want to meet you in a dark alley and
have you mad at me. I've been using the Ilsco
connectors for many years and have yet to have
a problem with them indoors or out. I have used
the Polaris type connectors too and they do a very
good job. The connectors are designed for different
situations and that's the way I use them.

TDD
Correct - they are designed to be used where the "standard" connector
is impractical. Still "second best"
It's been quite a while since I saw an IDC tap - but back then I
wouldn't touch them. Can't recall the manufacturer - but they used a
torque-to-fail bolt like used on many automotive steering
column/ignition switch setups. When you reached the right torque they
snapped off - you could neither under torque or over torque them
(theoretically) if you cranked them 'till the bolt sheared off..
However, if the joint "gave" you ended up with a loose connection down
the line that could NOT be tightened - and removal from a live circuit
was problematic, at best.
All IDC connectors tend to be point or line contact devices by their
very nature - which puts unneeded and undesired stress on the
conductors, as well as limiting contact area.

Like I said - won't catch me using them, but it's a free world (within
the confines of device approval)
Pure aluminum wiring with standard wiring devices was once UL (and
even CSA) approved too.. Even back-stab devices were once approved for
AL wiring IIRC - and still are for copper. Doesn't make them right, or
even safe, long-term.

wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 13:31:55 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Horne
wrote:

http://www.nsipolaris.com/electrical/

I'd go with thePolaris Black units, but the insulation displacement
units may work perfectly when installed, and fail over time. They can
NOT be retorqued or released and re-used from what I remember of them.
They are self torque limiting(the head breaks off when tight). If the
copper deforms and looses compression contact you are DONE. With the
standard Polaris (or Burndy, or whatever) lug connector you can snug
up the connection 5, 10, or 20 years down the road with no problem.
You can dissassemble and re=assemble if required.

I'd never use an insulation displacement connector for ANY power
connection. You are, of course, free to use whatever you feel
comfortable.
Givennthe fact the OP can easily disconnect power to the circuit in
question using a "proper" lugged junction is, in my eyes, a
nobrainer.
I'm not sure which connectors you're referring to
but if you can snap off the bolts on the Ilsco
connectors without using a long breaker bar, I
would not want to meet you in a dark alley and
have you mad at me. I've been using the Ilsco
connectors for many years and have yet to have
a problem with them indoors or out. I have used
the Polaris type connectors too and they do a very
good job. The connectors are designed for different
situations and that's the way I use them.

TDD
Correct - they are designed to be used where the "standard" connector
is impractical. Still "second best"
It's been quite a while since I saw an IDC tap - but back then I
wouldn't touch them. Can't recall the manufacturer - but they used a
torque-to-fail bolt like used on many automotive steering
column/ignition switch setups. When you reached the right torque they
snapped off - you could neither under torque or over torque them
(theoretically) if you cranked them 'till the bolt sheared off..
However, if the joint "gave" you ended up with a loose connection down
the line that could NOT be tightened - and removal from a live circuit
was problematic, at best.
All IDC connectors tend to be point or line contact devices by their
very nature - which puts unneeded and undesired stress on the
conductors, as well as limiting contact area.

Like I said - won't catch me using them, but it's a free world (within
the confines of device approval)
Pure aluminum wiring with standard wiring devices was once UL (and
even CSA) approved too.. Even back-stab devices were once approved for
AL wiring IIRC - and still are for copper. Doesn't make them right, or
even safe, long-term.

I love those Polaris type connectors for making connections
inside troughs or panels where I have to splice wires. The
labor and time saving over using split bolts more than pays
for any price difference. I like them for new wiring like a
new service entrance I installed for a building. It was a
400 amp 3 phase service and I used the connectors like those
made by Polaris in the wiring trough under the breaker panels.
I made sure I had extra ports on the connectors so future
panels/disconnects could easily be added later. That's some-
thing that would be a real chore with split bolts because
the feed was direct to the transformer using a CT meter. At
the time, the power company had no feed through 400 amp meters.
When I come across a hot trough that can't be turned off,
I'll use the Ilsco connectors if there is room. It's easy to
tap a 750 mcm cable with them and I've never had one overheat
or burn out.

TDD

I'd go with thePolaris Black units, but the insulation displacement
units may work perfectly when installed, and fail over time. They can
NOT be retorqued or released and re-used from what I remember of them.
They are self torque limiting(the head breaks off when tight). If the
copper deforms and looses compression contact you are DONE. With the
standard Polaris (or Burndy, or whatever) lug connector you can snug
up the connection 5, 10, or 20 years down the road with no problem.
You can dissassemble and re=assemble if required.

I'd never use an insulation displacement connector for ANY power
connection. You are, of course, free to use whatever you feel
comfortable.
Givennthe fact the OP can easily disconnect power to the circuit in
question using a "proper" lugged junction is, in my eyes, a
nobrainer.
I'm not sure which connectors you're referring to
but if you can snap off the bolts on the Ilsco
connectors without using a long breaker bar, I
would not want to meet you in a dark alley and
have you mad at me. I've been using the Ilsco
connectors for many years and have yet to have
a problem with them indoors or out. I have used
the Polaris type connectors too and they do a very
good job. The connectors are designed for different
situations and that's the way I use them.

TDD
Correct - they are designed to be used where the "standard" connector
is impractical. Still "second best"
It's been quite a while since I saw an IDC tap - but back then I
wouldn't touch them. Can't recall the manufacturer - but they used a
torque-to-fail bolt like used on many automotive steering
column/ignition switch setups. When you reached the right torque they
snapped off - you could neither under torque or over torque them
(theoretically) if you cranked them 'till the bolt sheared off..
However, if the joint "gave" you ended up with a loose connection down
the line that could NOT be tightened - and removal from a live circuit
was problematic, at best.
All IDC connectors tend to be point or line contact devices by their
very nature - which puts unneeded and undesired stress on the
conductors, as well as limiting contact area.

Like I said - won't catch me using them, but it's a free world (within
the confines of device approval)
Pure aluminum wiring with standard wiring devices was once UL (and
even CSA) approved too.. Even back-stab devices were once approved for
AL wiring IIRC - and still are for copper. Doesn't make them right, or
even safe, long-term.

I love those Polaris type connectors for making connections
inside troughs or panels where I have to splice wires. The
labor and time saving over using split bolts more than pays
for any price difference. I like them for new wiring like a
new service entrance I installed for a building. It was a
400 amp 3 phase service and I used the connectors like those
made by Polaris in the wiring trough under the breaker panels.
I made sure I had extra ports on the connectors so future
panels/disconnects could easily be added later. That's some-
thing that would be a real chore with split bolts because
the feed was direct to the transformer using a CT meter. At
the time, the power company had no feed through 400 amp meters.
When I come across a hot trough that can't be turned off,
I'll use the Ilsco connectors if there is room. It's easy to
tap a 750 mcm cable with them and I've never had one overheat
or burn out.


*You reminded of working with my father many years ago. When he did a tap
on a basement underground service in Newark or Jersey City it was hot and
with a load. He had rubber sheets and cardboard covering everything.
Sometimes he wore gloves working with the wrenches and pliers to loosen and
tighten the split bolts. I can fully appreciate the Ilsco's.

In article ,
Johnny_A_58 wrote:

My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home

Couple the subject line with this sentence, and your answer is no, it
isn't safe.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 20:36:54 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Johnny_A_58 wrote:

My Daughter just bought a house that was a mobile home

Couple the subject line with this sentence, and your answer is no, it
isn't safe.


Many "double wide" prefabs are technically "mobile homes" but placed
on foundations and are as safe as any other home.