Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and was
planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the design
department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made models, and I
have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature perspective, I had
to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears unless their prices turn
out to be the best, but I figured it was a good place to start, and I
had a bunch of old gift cards that I needed to burn up, and I needed a
new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with ice
maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to be the
only ones really doing this style; the majority of these seemed to be
either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be LGs in drag.
She also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go with
plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off craigslist and
hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking at, picking a lemon
could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those things cost a lot of money.)

As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running though,
which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice shiny QUIET
new ones...

On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all the
items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry a lot
of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he did
spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by K-D for
me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no shipping charge,)
and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that he could do the
transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner himself (Mercs and
Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND knowledgeable. Hope they keep
him around, was weird yet pleasant to find real help in a Sears tool dept.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and was
planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the design
department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made models, and I
have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature perspective, I had
to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears unless their prices turn
out to be the best, but I figured it was a good place to start, and I
had a bunch of old gift cards that I needed to burn up, and I needed a
new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with ice
maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to be the
only ones really doing this style; the majority of these seemed to be
either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be LGs in drag. She
also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go with
plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off craigslist and
hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking at, picking a lemon
could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those things cost a lot of money.)

As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running though,
which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice shiny QUIET
new ones...

On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all the
items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry a lot
of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he did
spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by K-D for
me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no shipping charge,)
and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that he could do the
transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner himself (Mercs and
Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND knowledgeable. Hope they keep
him around, was weird yet pleasant to find real help in a Sears tool dept.

nate

Suggest you use google too see what comes up in reviews re service and
reliability.

Lou

LouB wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and
was planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the
design department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made
models, and I have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature
perspective, I had to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears
unless their prices turn out to be the best, but I figured it was a
good place to start, and I had a bunch of old gift cards that I needed
to burn up, and I needed a new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with ice
maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to be
the only ones really doing this style; the majority of these seemed to
be either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be LGs in
drag. She also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go with
plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off craigslist and
hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking at, picking a
lemon could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those things cost a lot
of money.)

As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running though,
which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice shiny
QUIET new ones...

On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all
the items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry
a lot of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he
did spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by
K-D for me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no shipping
charge,) and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that he could
do the transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner himself
(Mercs and Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND knowledgeable.
Hope they keep him around, was weird yet pleasant to find real help in
a Sears tool dept.

nate

Suggest you use google too see what comes up in reviews re service and
reliability.

Lou

I did, it wasn't reassuring. Of course, when you go *looking* for
problems, all you'll find are reports of problems...

Kitchenaid is made by whirlpool, yes? I think they make one that's
almost as nice as the LG's appearance wise, although it doesn't have the
cool LED lighting that appeals to my inner engineer...

(y'know, left to my own devices, I'd probably buy a $500 builder's
special, slap a wireless thermometer on it to calibrate it, and call it
soup. But when you have an in-house design consultant aka SWMBO...
things get complicated.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mon 23 Mar 2009 09:00:48p, Nate Nagel told us...

LouB wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and
was planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the
design department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made
models, and I have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature
perspective, I had to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears
unless their prices turn out to be the best, but I figured it was a
good place to start, and I had a bunch of old gift cards that I needed
to burn up, and I needed a new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with ice
maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to be
the only ones really doing this style; the majority of these seemed to
be either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be LGs in
drag. She also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go with
plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off craigslist and
hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking at, picking a
lemon could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those things cost a lot
of money.)

As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running though,
which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice shiny QUIET
new ones...

On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all
the items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry
a lot of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he
did spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by
K-D for me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no shipping
charge,) and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that he could
do the transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner himself
(Mercs and Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND knowledgeable.
Hope they keep him around, was weird yet pleasant to find real help in
a Sears tool dept.

nate

Suggest you use google too see what comes up in reviews re service and
reliability.

Lou

I did, it wasn't reassuring. Of course, when you go *looking* for
problems, all you'll find are reports of problems...

Kitchenaid is made by whirlpool, yes? I think they make one that's
almost as nice as the LG's appearance wise, although it doesn't have the
cool LED lighting that appeals to my inner engineer...

(y'know, left to my own devices, I'd probably buy a $500 builder's
special, slap a wireless thermometer on it to calibrate it, and call it
soup. But when you have an in-house design consultant aka SWMBO...
things get complicated.)

nate


I'm not a fan of the French door bottom freezer models, but it's not my
kitchen. Amana and Whirlpool both make nice models like these. Both are
highly reliable.

--
Wayne Boatwright

"One man's meat is another man's poison"
- Oswald Dykes, English writer, 1709.

On Mon 23 Mar 2009 09:00:48p, Nate Nagel told us...

LouB wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and
was planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the
design department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made
models, and I have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature
perspective, I had to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears
unless their prices turn out to be the best, but I figured it was a
good place to start, and I had a bunch of old gift cards that I needed
to burn up, and I needed a new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with ice
maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to be
the only ones really doing this style; the majority of these seemed to
be either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be LGs in
drag. She also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go with
plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off craigslist and
hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking at, picking a
lemon could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those things cost a lot
of money.)

As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running though,
which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice shiny QUIET
new ones...

On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all
the items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry
a lot of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he
did spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by
K-D for me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no shipping
charge,) and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that he could
do the transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner himself
(Mercs and Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND knowledgeable.
Hope they keep him around, was weird yet pleasant to find real help in
a Sears tool dept.

nate

Suggest you use google too see what comes up in reviews re service and
reliability.

Lou

I did, it wasn't reassuring. Of course, when you go *looking* for
problems, all you'll find are reports of problems...

Kitchenaid is made by whirlpool, yes? I think they make one that's
almost as nice as the LG's appearance wise, although it doesn't have the
cool LED lighting that appeals to my inner engineer...

(y'know, left to my own devices, I'd probably buy a $500 builder's
special, slap a wireless thermometer on it to calibrate it, and call it
soup. But when you have an in-house design consultant aka SWMBO...
things get complicated.)

nate


Whirlpool French door models:

http://tinyurl.com/cvfub3

Amana French door models:

http://tinyurl.com/copqgv

All are pricey...

--
Wayne Boatwright

"One man's meat is another man's poison"
- Oswald Dykes, English writer, 1709.

Nate Nagel wrote:

Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and was
planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the design
department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made models, and I
have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature perspective, I had
to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears unless their prices turn
out to be the best, but I figured it was a good place to start, and I
had a bunch of old gift cards that I needed to burn up, and I needed a
new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with ice
maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to be the
only ones really doing this style; the majority of these seemed to be
either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be LGs in drag.
She also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go with
plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off craigslist and
hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking at, picking a lemon
could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those things cost a lot of money.)

No experience with LG fridges, but experience with various other LG
products has been good. Check the warranty, as well as any possible
extended warranty program through your credit card (most folks forget
those things exist or perhaps existed).


As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running though,
which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice shiny QUIET
new ones...

Quiet is good.


On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all the
items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry a lot
of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he did
spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by K-D for
me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no shipping charge,)
and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that he could do the
transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner himself (Mercs and
Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND knowledgeable. Hope they keep
him around, was weird yet pleasant to find real help in a Sears tool dept.

Yes, amazing and refreshing to find competent sales folks most anywhere
these days.

On Mar 23, 10:25*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Consumer Reports has data on reliability. Most people look there
first. Articles are good summaries of useful vs. stylish features.
Keep in mind that more features mean more repairs and LG does not have
a reputation for easy parts availability. Choose your trade-offs
wisely.

Joe

Nate Nagel wrote:
LouB wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Finally got the design department to accompany me to Sears to look at
fridges; I'd taken the advice given in the last thread to heart and
was planning on concentrating on Whirlpool-made models. However, the
design department seemed to be consistently drawn to the LG-made
models, and I have to admit, simply from a convenience and feature
perspective, I had to agree. (probably not going to buy at Sears
unless their prices turn out to be the best, but I figured it was a
good place to start, and I had a bunch of old gift cards that I
needed to burn up, and I needed a new Pitman arm puller.)

What she wants: french-door, bottom freezer model, preferably with
ice maker and shaved ice would be a bonus. The Asian mfgrs. seem to
be the only ones really doing this style; the majority of these
seemed to be either LG or Kenmore-branded models that appeared to be
LGs in drag. She also liked one GE I think.

What to do...?

any experience with LG fridges? worth a try, or should I just go
with plan A which was "pick up something in better shape off
craigslist and hope for the best?" With the stuff we were looking
at, picking a lemon could be an EXPEN$IVE mistake! (dang, those
things cost a lot of money.)

As I sit here in my basement, I can hear my old fridge running
though, which motivates me to spend money and get one of those nice
shiny QUIET new ones...

On a completely different topic, I drove out of my way to go to the
"nice" Sears in the suburbs, and the tool department was definitely
showing signs of the economy. The guy that was helping me find all
the items on my tool wish list was apologizing that they didn't carry
a lot of stock due to the fact that business was slow. HOWEVER... he
did spend about 20 min. looking up a "front end service kit" made by
K-D for me, ordered it online to be delivered to my house (no
shipping charge,) and consolidated all my gift cards into one so that
he could do the transaction. And ended up to be an old car owner
himself (Mercs and Volvos.) Amazing - customer service AND
knowledgeable. Hope they keep him around, was weird yet pleasant to
find real help in a Sears tool dept.

nate

Suggest you use google too see what comes up in reviews re service and
reliability.

Lou

I did, it wasn't reassuring. Of course, when you go *looking* for
problems, all you'll find are reports of problems...

Kitchenaid is made by whirlpool, yes? I think they make one that's
almost as nice as the LG's appearance wise, although it doesn't have the
cool LED lighting that appeals to my inner engineer...

(y'know, left to my own devices, I'd probably buy a $500 builder's
special, slap a wireless thermometer on it to calibrate it, and call it
soup. But when you have an in-house design consultant aka SWMBO...
things get complicated.)

nate


That is what I heard about LG also so now it may come down to getting a
service contract (ugh). Also, be sure SWMBO knows the possible
reliability/service issues. OTOH I like the idea the kind of box she
has picked.

Lou

Joe wrote:
On Mar 23, 10:25 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Consumer Reports has data on reliability. Most people look there
first. Articles are good summaries of useful vs. stylish features.
Keep in mind that more features mean more repairs and LG does not have
a reputation for easy parts availability. Choose your trade-offs
wisely.

Joe

Isn't there any other source for info? The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mar 24, 6:20*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? *The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. *Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.
Having spent many decades mending cars from Beatles to Bentley's I
don't recall any major disagreement with their findings. Their reader
annual surveys are distilled from thousands of replies which IMO have
far more weight than an occasional aberrant result from an
individual. Good data from whatever source (even a Democrat) should
be given credence. After all it's for your benefit.
Cheers,

Joe

Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them. They also rigged the
gas tanks on Chevy/GMC pickups to catch fire in side impacts so they
could fabricate a story. Both instances involved CR "testers" forcing
something to fail so they could have a sensational story when the
failures they expected didn't occur in normal testing. I think there
was also some kerfuffle recently about improper methodology in testing
child restraint seats, but I don't remember the details.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them.

Sufficient grounds to blacklist CR for good.


They also rigged the
gas tanks on Chevy/GMC pickups to catch fire in side impacts so they
could fabricate a story.

That was NBC, not CR.

Both instances involved CR "testers" forcing
something to fail so they could have a sensational story when the
failures they expected didn't occur in normal testing. I think there
was also some kerfuffle recently about improper methodology in testing
child restraint seats, but I don't remember the details.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? The thought of giving CR
any of my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive
shenanigans over the years. Don't trust them either, because of
their record of dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them.

The lawsuit was dismissed by mutual agreement.

On Mar 24, 7:47*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? *The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. *Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! *They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. *They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them. *They also rigged the
gas tanks on Chevy/GMC pickups to catch fire in side impacts so they
could fabricate a story. *Both instances involved CR "testers" forcing
something to fail so they could have a sensational story when the
failures they expected didn't occur in normal testing. *I think there
was also some kerfuffle recently about improper methodology in testing
child restraint seats, but I don't remember the details.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate, FWIW, I have driven a few of the early Samarai in the course of
normal servicing, and IMO it was a nasty, short wheelbase, narrow
little turd. It may have been OK for the narrow streets of third world
countries, or puttering around town, but on our after service test
runs there were definite places where it would give you a case of
vertigo. To their credit, the redesigned later models were far better,
even a bit fun to drive. Sadly, owners of the early models we saw
never kept them long. Better offerings in the market place must have
been hard to resist. I would have to vote with CR on this one.

Joe

Nate Nagel wrote:
Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them. They also rigged the
gas tanks on Chevy/GMC pickups to catch fire in side impacts so they
could fabricate a story. Both instances involved CR "testers" forcing
something to fail so they could have a sensational story when the
failures they expected didn't occur in normal testing. I think there
was also some kerfuffle recently about improper methodology in testing
child restraint seats, but I don't remember the details.

nate

The gas tank fire thing was NBC and an 'independent' test lab, IIRC, not
CR. Not defending CR, mind you, I quit trusting them when I realized
their tests on items I actually knew about were pretty meaningless. (Not
to mention their snotty attitude toward products they consider incorrect.)

--
aem sends...

On Mar 24, 11:38*pm, Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 7:47*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:





Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? *The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. *Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! *They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. *They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them. *They also rigged the
gas tanks on Chevy/GMC pickups to catch fire in side impacts so they
could fabricate a story. *Both instances involved CR "testers" forcing
something to fail so they could have a sensational story when the
failures they expected didn't occur in normal testing. *I think there
was also some kerfuffle recently about improper methodology in testing
child restraint seats, but I don't remember the details.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate, FWIW, I have driven a few of the early Samarai in the course of
normal servicing, and IMO it was a nasty, short wheelbase, narrow
little turd. It may have been OK for the narrow streets of third world
countries, or puttering around town, but on our after service test
runs there were definite places where it would give you a case of
vertigo. To their credit, the redesigned later models were far better,
even a bit fun to drive. Sadly, owners of the early models we saw
never kept them long. Better offerings in the market place must have
been hard to resist. I would have to vote with CR on this one.


Sure, but the thing is, it wasn't any more likely to tip than, say, a
Jeep CJ/Wrangler which is the claim that CR made.

The Samurai still has something of a following among the off-road
crowd, which is really who the vehicle was aimed at. Obviously a
small, narrow vehicle with a high COG is more likely to tip than a
Lotus; that is just common sense. Exaggerating this to make a story
is not responsible reporting.

nate

In article
,
N8N wrote:



Sure, but the thing is, it wasn't any more likely to tip than, say, a
Jeep CJ/Wrangler which is the claim that CR made.

The Samurai still has something of a following among the off-road
crowd, which is really who the vehicle was aimed at. Obviously a
small, narrow vehicle with a high COG is more likely to tip than a
Lotus; that is just common sense. Exaggerating this to make a story
is not responsible reporting.

nate

I remember hearing 35 years ago that American cars do not roll when
cornered hard at highway speed on a relatively flat surface, period.
Doing so was considered ill-behaved. Maybe my memory is bad, or things
have changed.

I don't know about the Samurai, but the early Jeep was a tipper with a
bad reputation, IIRC. So saying the Samurai is no worse than the Jeep
isn't overly reassuring, even if it's an off-road gadget. Personally, if
I didn't want to roll on the road, I sure wouldn't want to roll in the
dirt and boulders.

On Mar 25, 11:40*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*N8N wrote:

Sure, but the thing is, it wasn't any more likely to tip than, say, a
Jeep CJ/Wrangler which is the claim that CR made.

The Samurai still has something of a following among the off-road
crowd, which is really who the vehicle was aimed at. *Obviously a
small, narrow vehicle with a high COG is more likely to tip than a
Lotus; that is just common sense. *Exaggerating this to make a story
is not responsible reporting.

nate

I remember hearing 35 years ago that American cars do not roll when
cornered hard at highway speed on a relatively flat surface, period. *
Doing so was considered ill-behaved. Maybe my memory is bad, or things
have changed.

I don't know about the Samurai, but the early Jeep was a tipper with a
bad reputation, IIRC. So saying the Samurai is no worse than the Jeep
isn't overly reassuring, even if it's an off-road gadget. Personally, if
I didn't want to roll on the road, I sure wouldn't want to roll in the
dirt and boulders.

Lots of ground clearance and suspension articulation (required for
rock crawling) make for a tippy vehicle, period. That's why they make
roll cages. If you don't want such a vehicle, don't buy it - and I
don't mean that in a snippy way - but CR had no business knocking a
primarily off-road vehicle for behaving like one. They CERTAINLY
didn't have any business forcing it to tip over so they could get a
story out of it. I'm surprised that Suzuki settled the lawsuit,
actually - I'd have tried my damndest to nail CR to the wall.

Now if CR had simply stated "Jeeps, Suzuki Samurais, etc. are designed
as off road vehicles and as such may be less safe than traditional
passenger cars in high speed on-road maneuvers" that would have been a
true statement, and one that needed to be made back in the early days
of the SUV craze. But CR *deliberately made* the Samurai tip over
when it didn't tip as they expected in the first run of their handling
test. That's inexcusable.

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/...r_lat0923.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Suzuki...ion-a018179466


Sadly, most of what comes up on a web search *today* is articles
glossing over the issues and stating that the lawsuit was settled.
However, I remember the circumstances of the suit well, and it was as
I said - CR had initially set up a handling course with tight corners
and ran the vehicles through them at a certain speed. When none
tipped, they picked the Suzuki, and ran it through at a *higher* speed
and then when it went up on two wheels published an article deeming it
"unacceptable."


nate

On Mar 25, 12:00*am, aemeijers wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Joe wrote:
On Mar 24, 6:20 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

Isn't there any other source for info? *The thought of giving CR any of
my money makes my skin crawl, after all their automotive shenanigans
over the years. *Don't trust them either, because of their record of
dishonesty at least where cars are concerned.

Could you cite the record that you mentioned above? IIRC, they were
sued by a couple of manufacturers over cars that tipped over when
cornering, and lost the suits because those were the facts.

False! *They smeared Suzuki and set them back 10 years in this country
when the truth is that the Samurai handled about on par with other
comparable vehicles. *They changed their methodology halfway through a
test when the Samurai wouldn't tip over for them. *They also rigged the
gas tanks on Chevy/GMC pickups to catch fire in side impacts so they
could fabricate a story. *Both instances involved CR "testers" forcing
something to fail so they could have a sensational story when the
failures they expected didn't occur in normal testing. *I think there
was also some kerfuffle recently about improper methodology in testing
child restraint seats, but I don't remember the details.

nate

The gas tank fire thing was NBC and an 'independent' test lab, IIRC, not
CR.

Oops... I haven't checked but enough people have mentioned this that
I'm ASSuming you're right.

Not defending CR, mind you, I quit trusting them when I realized
their tests on items I actually knew about were pretty meaningless. (Not
to mention their snotty attitude toward products they consider incorrect.)

Sure. e.g. Volkswagen cars get consistently low ratings from CR but I
have had nothing but excellent luck with them, even well past their
usual service life.

nate

On 3/25/2009 09:24 N8N wrote:
Lots of ground clearance and suspension articulation (required for
rock crawling) make for a tippy vehicle, period. That's why they make
roll cages. If you don't want such a vehicle, don't buy it - and I
don't mean that in a snippy way - but CR had no business knocking a
primarily off-road vehicle for behaving like one. They CERTAINLY
didn't have any business forcing it to tip over so they could get a
story out of it. I'm surprised that Suzuki settled the lawsuit,
actually - I'd have tried my damndest to nail CR to the wall.

Now if CR had simply stated "Jeeps, Suzuki Samurais, etc. are designed
as off road vehicles and as such may be less safe than traditional
passenger cars in high speed on-road maneuvers" that would have been a
true statement, and one that needed to be made back in the early days
of the SUV craze. But CR *deliberately made* the Samurai tip over
when it didn't tip as they expected in the first run of their handling
test. That's inexcusable.

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/...r_lat0923.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Suzuki...ion-a018179466


Sadly, most of what comes up on a web search *today* is articles
glossing over the issues and stating that the lawsuit was settled.
However, I remember the circumstances of the suit well, and it was as
I said - CR had initially set up a handling course with tight corners
and ran the vehicles through them at a certain speed. When none
tipped, they picked the Suzuki, and ran it through at a *higher* speed
and then when it went up on two wheels published an article deeming it
"unacceptable."


nate

I don't see anything in either of these articles that supports the claim
that CU's altered their tests to "force" a rollover or that it was even
different from the tests they used on other similar vehicles.

The maneuvers many have been stunt-like or unlikely to occur in normal
driving conditions, but if they are comparing apples to apples using the
same test on both, I don't see they did anything wrong.

It's been 20 years now and my memory is foggy, but I also seem to recall
there was a 60 Minutes (or maybe 20/20 or some other show like that)
that did a similar story and their findings supported that of CU - the
Samuari performed less satisfactorily than the other similar vehicles in
the same battery of tests.

Dave wrote:
On 3/25/2009 09:24 N8N wrote:
Lots of ground clearance and suspension articulation (required for
rock crawling) make for a tippy vehicle, period. That's why they make
roll cages. If you don't want such a vehicle, don't buy it - and I
don't mean that in a snippy way - but CR had no business knocking a
primarily off-road vehicle for behaving like one. They CERTAINLY
didn't have any business forcing it to tip over so they could get a
story out of it. I'm surprised that Suzuki settled the lawsuit,
actually - I'd have tried my damndest to nail CR to the wall.

Now if CR had simply stated "Jeeps, Suzuki Samurais, etc. are designed
as off road vehicles and as such may be less safe than traditional
passenger cars in high speed on-road maneuvers" that would have been a
true statement, and one that needed to be made back in the early days
of the SUV craze. But CR *deliberately made* the Samurai tip over
when it didn't tip as they expected in the first run of their handling
test. That's inexcusable.

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/...r_lat0923.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Suzuki...ion-a018179466



Sadly, most of what comes up on a web search *today* is articles
glossing over the issues and stating that the lawsuit was settled.
However, I remember the circumstances of the suit well, and it was as
I said - CR had initially set up a handling course with tight corners
and ran the vehicles through them at a certain speed. When none
tipped, they picked the Suzuki, and ran it through at a *higher* speed
and then when it went up on two wheels published an article deeming it
"unacceptable."


nate

I don't see anything in either of these articles that supports the claim
that CU's altered their tests to "force" a rollover or that it was even
different from the tests they used on other similar vehicles.

I know this, and I a) am having a hard time finding the documentation
and b) don't really care enough to go find it.

I do remember watching a documentary about the issue and they definitely
stated that a) CR increased the speed of the maneuverability test above
that of the initial spec until they got the Samurai up on two wheels and
b) someone high up in CR was alleged to have instructed the test crew to
do whatever they needed to do to get a near-rollover, as they needed a
big story.


The maneuvers many have been stunt-like or unlikely to occur in normal
driving conditions, but if they are comparing apples to apples using the
same test on both, I don't see they did anything wrong.


see above...

It's been 20 years now and my memory is foggy, but I also seem to recall
there was a 60 Minutes (or maybe 20/20 or some other show like that)
that did a similar story and their findings supported that of CU - the
Samuari performed less satisfactorily than the other similar vehicles in
the same battery of tests.

"similar vehicles?" There really aren't any, save for the Jeep
CJ/Wrangler and the old, original-style Toyota FJ. I am not aware of
any major differences in handling, although obviously the Samurai was
the cheaper, lighter imitator of the other two.

Oh, and BTW, rather than pay money to CR I did stop at the public
library on the way home from work, and actually found the most recent
issue where they did a refrigerator comparison test. They picked an LG
as the "best buy" in the bottom-freezer category, which says to me that
their credibility hasn't improved any from my preconceived notions.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article
,
N8N wrote:

On Mar 25, 11:40*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*N8N wrote:

Sure, but the thing is, it wasn't any more likely to tip than, say, a
Jeep CJ/Wrangler which is the claim that CR made.

The Samurai still has something of a following among the off-road
crowd, which is really who the vehicle was aimed at. *Obviously a
small, narrow vehicle with a high COG is more likely to tip than a
Lotus; that is just common sense. *Exaggerating this to make a story
is not responsible reporting.

nate

I remember hearing 35 years ago that American cars do not roll when
cornered hard at highway speed on a relatively flat surface, period. *
Doing so was considered ill-behaved. Maybe my memory is bad, or things
have changed.

I don't know about the Samurai, but the early Jeep was a tipper with a
bad reputation, IIRC. So saying the Samurai is no worse than the Jeep
isn't overly reassuring, even if it's an off-road gadget. Personally, if
I didn't want to roll on the road, I sure wouldn't want to roll in the
dirt and boulders.

Lots of ground clearance and suspension articulation (required for
rock crawling) make for a tippy vehicle, period. That's why they make
roll cages. If you don't want such a vehicle, don't buy it - and I
don't mean that in a snippy way - but CR had no business knocking a
primarily off-road vehicle for behaving like one. They CERTAINLY
didn't have any business forcing it to tip over so they could get a
story out of it. I'm surprised that Suzuki settled the lawsuit,
actually - I'd have tried my damndest to nail CR to the wall.

Now if CR had simply stated "Jeeps, Suzuki Samurais, etc. are designed
as off road vehicles and as such may be less safe than traditional
passenger cars in high speed on-road maneuvers" that would have been a
true statement, and one that needed to be made back in the early days
of the SUV craze. But CR *deliberately made* the Samurai tip over
when it didn't tip as they expected in the first run of their handling
test. That's inexcusable.

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/oct99/consumer lat0923.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Suzuki...mer+Reports+of
+Consumers+Union-a018179466


Sadly, most of what comes up on a web search *today* is articles
glossing over the issues and stating that the lawsuit was settled.
However, I remember the circumstances of the suit well, and it was as
I said - CR had initially set up a handling course with tight corners
and ran the vehicles through them at a certain speed. When none
tipped, they picked the Suzuki, and ran it through at a *higher* speed
and then when it went up on two wheels published an article deeming it
"unacceptable."


nate

Interesting, thanks for the clarifications. I know there are many
genuine off-road enthusiasts and certainly if the Samurai is well-suited
to that then I can see why fans would be upset with the CR methodology
and report.

Around here, it's of note that the overwhelming majority of 4WD vehicles
rarely if ever leave the pavement. They're used by soccer moms, who slow
down to 2 mph for parking lot speed bumps. When they get offered up for
sale in the local auto trader rag they proudly list among the vehicles
attributes and features: "Never been off road!"

Nate Nagel wrote:

Dave wrote:
On 3/25/2009 09:24 N8N wrote:
Lots of ground clearance and suspension articulation (required for
rock crawling) make for a tippy vehicle, period. That's why they make
roll cages. If you don't want such a vehicle, don't buy it - and I
don't mean that in a snippy way - but CR had no business knocking a
primarily off-road vehicle for behaving like one. They CERTAINLY
didn't have any business forcing it to tip over so they could get a
story out of it. I'm surprised that Suzuki settled the lawsuit,
actually - I'd have tried my damndest to nail CR to the wall.

Now if CR had simply stated "Jeeps, Suzuki Samurais, etc. are designed
as off road vehicles and as such may be less safe than traditional
passenger cars in high speed on-road maneuvers" that would have been a
true statement, and one that needed to be made back in the early days
of the SUV craze. But CR *deliberately made* the Samurai tip over
when it didn't tip as they expected in the first run of their handling
test. That's inexcusable.

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/...r_lat0923.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Suzuki...ion-a018179466



Sadly, most of what comes up on a web search *today* is articles
glossing over the issues and stating that the lawsuit was settled.
However, I remember the circumstances of the suit well, and it was as
I said - CR had initially set up a handling course with tight corners
and ran the vehicles through them at a certain speed. When none
tipped, they picked the Suzuki, and ran it through at a *higher* speed
and then when it went up on two wheels published an article deeming it
"unacceptable."


nate

I don't see anything in either of these articles that supports the claim
that CU's altered their tests to "force" a rollover or that it was even
different from the tests they used on other similar vehicles.

I know this, and I a) am having a hard time finding the documentation
and b) don't really care enough to go find it.

I do remember watching a documentary about the issue and they definitely
stated that a) CR increased the speed of the maneuverability test above
that of the initial spec until they got the Samurai up on two wheels and
b) someone high up in CR was alleged to have instructed the test crew to
do whatever they needed to do to get a near-rollover, as they needed a
big story.


The maneuvers many have been stunt-like or unlikely to occur in normal
driving conditions, but if they are comparing apples to apples using the
same test on both, I don't see they did anything wrong.


see above...

It's been 20 years now and my memory is foggy, but I also seem to recall
there was a 60 Minutes (or maybe 20/20 or some other show like that)
that did a similar story and their findings supported that of CU - the
Samuari performed less satisfactorily than the other similar vehicles in
the same battery of tests.

"similar vehicles?" There really aren't any, save for the Jeep
CJ/Wrangler and the old, original-style Toyota FJ. I am not aware of
any major differences in handling, although obviously the Samurai was
the cheaper, lighter imitator of the other two.

Oh, and BTW, rather than pay money to CR I did stop at the public
library on the way home from work, and actually found the most recent
issue where they did a refrigerator comparison test. They picked an LG
as the "best buy" in the bottom-freezer category, which says to me that
their credibility hasn't improved any from my preconceived notions.

Not sure why you're so anti LG. I've used a number of LG products over
the years and all have performed well and had no reliability issues.

On Mar 25, 6:33*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Dave wrote:
On 3/25/2009 09:24 N8N wrote:
Lots of ground clearance and suspension articulation (required for
rock crawling) make for a tippy vehicle, period. *That's why they make
roll cages. *If you don't want such a vehicle, don't buy it - and I
don't mean that in a snippy way - but CR had no business knocking a
primarily off-road vehicle for behaving like one. *They CERTAINLY
didn't have any business forcing it to tip over so they could get a
story out of it. *I'm surprised that Suzuki settled the lawsuit,
actually - I'd have tried my damndest to nail CR to the wall.

Now if CR had simply stated "Jeeps, Suzuki Samurais, etc. are designed
as off road vehicles and as such may be less safe than traditional
passenger cars in high speed on-road maneuvers" that would have been a
true statement, and one that needed to be made back in the early days
of the SUV craze. *But CR *deliberately made* the Samurai tip over
when it didn't tip as they expected in the first run of their handling
test. *That's inexcusable.

http://www.junkscience.com/consumer/...r_lat0923.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Suzuki...nst+Consumer+R....

Sadly, most of what comes up on a web search *today* is articles
glossing over the issues and stating that the lawsuit was settled.
However, I remember the circumstances of the suit well, and it was as
I said - CR had initially set up a handling course with tight corners
and ran the vehicles through them at a certain speed. *When none
tipped, they picked the Suzuki, and ran it through at a *higher* speed
and then when it went up on two wheels published an article deeming it
"unacceptable."

nate

I don't see anything in either of these articles that supports the claim
that CU's altered their tests to "force" a rollover or that it was even
different from the tests they used on other similar vehicles.

I know this, and I a) am having a hard time finding the documentation
and b) don't really care enough to go find it.

I do remember watching a documentary about the issue and they definitely
stated that a) CR increased the speed of the maneuverability test above
that of the initial spec until they got the Samurai up on two wheels and
b) someone high up in CR was alleged to have instructed the test crew to
do whatever they needed to do to get a near-rollover, as they needed a
big story.



The maneuvers many have been stunt-like or unlikely to occur in normal
driving conditions, but if they are comparing apples to apples using the
same test on both, I don't see they did anything wrong.

see above...

It's been 20 years now and my memory is foggy, but I also seem to recall
there was a 60 Minutes (or maybe 20/20 or some other show like that)
that did a similar story and their findings supported that of CU - the
Samuari performed less satisfactorily than the other similar vehicles in
the same battery of tests.

"similar vehicles?" *There really aren't any, save for the Jeep
CJ/Wrangler and the old, original-style Toyota FJ. *I am not aware of
any major differences in handling, although obviously the Samurai was
the cheaper, lighter imitator of the other two.

Oh, and BTW, rather than pay money to CR I did stop at the public
library on the way home from work, and actually found the most recent
issue where they did a refrigerator comparison test. *They picked an LG
as the "best buy" in the bottom-freezer category, which says to me that
their credibility hasn't improved any from my preconceived notions.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Perhaps I can help you out. I also recall some of the details of what
was alleged that CR did back then and my recollection is similar to
Nate's. Here's a good report that covers some of the evidence behind
the lawsuit and what CR is alleged to have done with the Samurai:

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-re...sumer-reports/


It says the Samurai was put through the standard test CR had used for
15 years to simulate an emergency avoidance 37 times and it did not
roll over despite being driven at a HIGHER speed than other vehicles
tested. One of their testers gave the Samurai CU's highest
stability rating, saying "it corrects quickly and responds well."

It goes on to say, that at that point, CR management ordered them to
find a way to roll the car.....

In article
,
wrote:

http://www.aim.org/aim-report/aim-re...sumer-reports/

Wow. Well, that changes my opinion of CR. That's messed up, as the kids
say.