I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H

"H_X" wrote in message
...
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H

It sounds like you removed a neutral conductor from a pack of neutral wires.
If there is a load on that circuit, it will appear that that isolated wire
is hot, when it is a return in search of it's neutral

On Feb 23, 11:47*am, H_X wrote:
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. *It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. *The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. *Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. *There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. *In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. *I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H

You'll have to start back at the fuse box and trace everything from
there. To do otherwise could cause a fatal event sometime in the
future, plus when you go to sell the house it will be impossible to do
with the wiring the way that it is.

hr(bob) wrote:
....
You'll have to start back at the fuse box and trace everything from
there. To do otherwise could cause a fatal event sometime in the
future, plus when you go to sell the house it will be impossible to do
with the wiring the way that it is.

Neither at all likely; second essentially impossible.

I'd wager high odds RBM has first instance correct; possibly the same
symptom in the second although at a light it's possible he simply has
the switch leg that somebody didn't mark.

If it's been functioning, it's likely the overall wiring is not grossly
at fault.

To OP, one would presume there was an inspection before the son bought
the place???

--

On Feb 23, 1:47*pm, dpb wrote:
hr(bob) wrote:

...

You'll have to start back at the fuse box and trace everything from
there. To do otherwise could cause a fatal event sometime in the
future, plus when you go to sell the house it will be impossible to do
with the wiring the way that it is.

Neither at all likely; second essentially impossible.

I'd wager high odds RBM has first instance correct; possibly the same
symptom in the second although at a light it's possible he simply has
the switch leg that somebody didn't mark.

If it's been functioning, it's likely the overall wiring is not grossly
at fault.

To OP, one would presume there was an inspection before the son bought
the place???

--

There was an inspection. I do not recall any mention of the wiring,
however.

It appears that the wires atop the light fixture (and there are a lot
of wires) are there because the original wirer was using that box for
a central wiring point ( I think there are 6 wires connected
togther).

Nevertheless, why would a switch-leg be hooked up to the neutral wires?

H_X wrote:
....

Nevertheless, why would a switch-leg be hooked up to the neutral wires?

Are you absolutely sure it's a neutral, not just the switched leg being
a white conductor that wasn't marked at the end? That would be my first
presumption and is relatively common w/ 2-wire romex on occasion.

An inspection certainly _should_ have covered basic electrical and even
the most rudimentary typically check wiring for correct neutral in
outlets, continuous grounds, etc. One would presume if such were found
they would have been noted.

--

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:47:10 -0800 (PST), H_X
wrote:

I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H
The white wire is "hot" if the furnace is turned on. ALL white wires
are "HOT" when there is a load on the circuit and the white wire is
"open". Just take a look at a circuit.
We'll look at it as a DC circuit for clarity, but AC is the same.

Power comes out of the fuse box on the black wire - it is "Hot". That
black wire goes to a switch. When the switch is off, the second wire
is "cold", when it is on, it is "hot". The black wire continues to the
load - let's say a light. The power flows through the light - so both
sides of the light are "hot" but the light is not on. The white wire
connects to the light and returns to the neutral busss in the fuse
box. If that neutral is "lifted" anywhere wetween the lamp and the
buss, it is "hot".

"H_X" wrote in message
...
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?


*It could be as RBM suggested, but unfortunately with that old of a house
anything is possible. In a situation like that it may be best to just
install new wiring at least to the furnace. To fully understand what is
going on one would need to identify each conductor in the box and its
function. One pair is the feed and another pair apparently feeds the
furnace. Now figure what the others are doing. If there is a wall switch
then one pair goes there.

H_X wrote:
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H

seems normal to me. white wires carry current also. takes one of each
to make a circuit.

sounds like you need to leave things alone.

On Feb 23, 2:08*pm, dpb wrote:
H_X wrote:

...

Nevertheless, why would a switch-leg be hooked up to the neutral wires?


Good question. Answer: it wouldn't. And if it was, the breaker
would trip. I agree with RBM. Given that you seperated one neutral
from the others and the furnace no longer runs, it appears you have
disconnected the furnace neutral from where it was connected to other
neutrals and hence it;s connection back to the panel. A neutral is
there to complete the circuit and carry the return current. If you
open a neutral that has an active load on it anywhere along it's path
the neutral will then appear hot. That is, if you measure between it
and neutral or ground, you will see 120V. If you touch it back to the
other neutrals where it belongs, you'll also see a spark, assuming the
load is big enough.






Are you absolutely sure it's a neutral, not just the switched leg being
a white conductor that wasn't marked at the end? *That would be my first
presumption and is relatively common w/ 2-wire romex on occasion.

An inspection certainly _should_ have covered basic electrical and even
the most rudimentary typically check wiring for correct neutral in
outlets, continuous grounds, etc. *One would presume if such were found
they would have been noted.

--

"H_X" wrote in message
...
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H
If the house is wired with conventional white neutrals and black hots it is
possible that they are reversed at the panel or someplace in between. If the
panel lacks a ground, they could even be reversed at the meter or drop. You
actually need to test to a known good ground to be able to tell whether a
wire is a neutral or a hot.

As others have mentioned, a disconnected neutral with a load connected will
be hot. I really do not read anything in your post that indicates a problem.

Don Young

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:08:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

H_X wrote:
...

Nevertheless, why would a switch-leg be hooked up to the neutral wires?

Are you absolutely sure it's a neutral, not just the switched leg being
a white conductor that wasn't marked at the end? That would be my first
presumption and is relatively common w/ 2-wire romex on occasion.

An inspection certainly _should_ have covered basic electrical and even
the most rudimentary typically check wiring for correct neutral in
outlets, continuous grounds, etc. One would presume if such were found
they would have been noted.
If it WAS it would not be connected to a lot of other whites, and
would not have shut off the furnace when disconnected. It is as it
should be - if the furnace was turned on (not even calling for heat)
the neutral WOULD be "hot" when lifted. Has to be. No other way around
it.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:35:31 -0500, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

H_X wrote:
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H

Old house wiring is scary. Most have a single circuit for every room in
the house, lights and outlets. In the old ice box days where all they
had was a light in a room it was fine. No good today. Rewire the house
starting with a new panel.
The OP did not mention Knob&Tube, and DID mention a "BOX" so the
wiring is likely circa 1950 or newer.
Remove fuses/shut off breakers untill the furnace is shut off. Does
anything else not work? To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own
circuit. If it is, don't worry about it. If not, get a good
electrician in to check it out and let you know what you have.
Hint - get a BUSY electrician so he's not out REALLY looking for
work!!

In article , wrote:

To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own circuit.

Cite, please.

On Feb 23, 12:47*pm, H_X wrote:
I am working on my son's 100+ year old house, and someone put in a gas
furnace. *It works fine.

I am helping him install a new large closet, but when we went to move
an old lighting fixture out of the way, we cam across a bunch of wires
in a box above it. *The thing about the wire, is that within the
bundle of white wires, one of the white wires was hot. *Again, this
was connected to all the other white wires in the box.

I was suspicious of that wire, so we left it out of the group of other
white wires.

We later on noticed that the furnace was not working.

Shaking my head, I reattached the "hot white" to the other white...and
the furnace went on.

It gets wierder from here.

I am assuming that a qualified electrician wired the house, and made
the black wires hot. *There appears to be some evidence of that.
Nevertheless, I am hooking up a socket, and when I did it did not
work. *In fact, the White wire is hot on that circuit too. *I suspect
the white wire I put back into the mass of wires has electrified the
entire house's white.

Any ideas what the heck is going on?

Thanks.
H

Its not weird at all, An open neutral measured to ground or another
neutral will read hot if the other side of the load is hot. What you
see is not an indication that anything is wrong.
By taking it loose to measure it you have floated it above ground so
now it is connected to the hot side through whatever load was feeding.

Jimmie

On Feb 23, 10:07*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:
To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own circuit.

Cite, please.

422.12 Central heating equipment....shall be supplied by an
individual branch circuit.

Joe

wrote:
....

If it WAS it would not be connected to a lot of other whites, and
would not have shut off the furnace when disconnected. It is as it
should be - if the furnace was turned on (not even calling for heat)
the neutral WOULD be "hot" when lifted. Has to be. No other way around
it.

_IF_ that is indeed the same white--wasn't clear at all to me and was
assuming it was different. But, maybe it was, who knows for absolute
certain...

--

On Feb 23, 11:53*pm, Joe wrote:
On Feb 23, 10:07*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own circuit.

Cite, please.

422.12 *Central heating equipment....shall be supplied by an
individual branch circuit.

Joe

Could be like my furnace was wired. The main power going to the motor
was on on an individual circuit but the control voltage transformer
was connected to a light circuit in the attic. At one time this may
have been OK. When my new heat pump was installed they had to by code
install attic lighting and an outlet near the HVAC unit in the attic
the new transformer was tied into ths new circuit. The old transformer
was tied into the bathroom lights. When I asked the electrician who
wired in the new HVAC unit about this he said it should have been
connected to the outlet circuit but otherwise it was no big deal. At
least it wsa labeled in the panel box as furnace/ Broom lts .

Jimmie

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 10:07 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own circuit.

Cite, please.

422.12 Central heating equipment....shall be supplied by an
individual branch circuit.

Joe

While that's code today, I don't believe that it was code back a while. One
of the things I do a lot of, is boiler wiring, and It seem rare when a house
built in the forties or fifties, has the boiler on a dedicated circuit

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 04:07:12 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own circuit.

Cite, please.
I don't have the code book to refer to, but from another site:

"Here's what the Cdn code says, which applies to you, Pelican. Each
gas furnace must have its own 15A circuit and disconnect. The breaker
at the panel can serve as the disconnect if the panel is located
between the furnace and the escape route. That means, if in walking
away from the furnace towards your escape route you pass the panel,
then you can use the breaker as your disconnect. If not, a disconnect
switch is required between the furnace and escape route. It doesn't
matter how you wire the switch. The loomex feed wire must be inside
7/16" flex conduit if the feed is less than 1.5m above the floor or
when the loomex is subject to mechanical damage. You must bond the
grounding conductor (bare) in the supply cable to the bonding terminal
in the furnace connection box.
Any competent furnace service person would always check the supply
cable for power before servicing, regardless of the position of the
disconnect switch."

Also found this:
"My 1981 NEC Handbook makes no mention of this, but my 1993 NEC says
that central heating equipment should be on a separate circuit, but
associated equipment, like pumps, humidifiers, or electrostatic air
cleaners may also be on that circuit. See Article 422-7 in the '93
Code. It's also not marked in the '93 code as being a new change, so
in 84, 87, or 90 this section was added. Before that, the furnace
apparently could be on a shared circuit, and a separate fuse or
breaker would be useful. My furnace, fairly new, installed on a
shared circuit, has a 12A Fusetron in the disconnect switch box
mounted on the furnace itself. The installation was a kludge, so I was
going to rewire it, and now will do so on a dedicated circuit. "

All I know for sure is for at least the last 20 years it has been
MANDATORY in Waterloo Region, Ontario Canada, that a furnace be on a
dedicated circuit and that if the service panel is more than 15 feet
from the furnace, and not in the direct escape route from the furnace,
that a disconect switch must be provided as close to the furnace as is
practical, and the wiring to the furnace must be via metallic sheathed
cable (AKA BX) supported on a rigid structure from the ceiling (can be
strapped to gas pipe) IIRC that shutoff switch must be in the same
room as the furnace, and a safety lockout tab is highly recommended
(so no-one can accidentally turn the furnace on while it is being
serviced) Seem to remember that is mandatory if the switch is outside
the furnace room/enclosure.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:15:33 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Feb 23, 10:07 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
To meet code, the furnace MUST be on it's own circuit.

Cite, please.

422.12 Central heating equipment....shall be supplied by an
individual branch circuit.

Joe

While that's code today, I don't believe that it was code back a while. One
of the things I do a lot of, is boiler wiring, and It seem rare when a house
built in the forties or fifties, has the boiler on a dedicated circuit

A house wired in the forties had a 6 circuit panel, in most cases (and
a 60 amp service, if it was a BIG house)

If that boiler is replaced or refurbished, it needs to be brought up
to current code - which for over 20 years has required a dedicated
circuit.

In many older homes that means a new panel and a new (100 amp or
higher) service) as well as replacement of the old K&T wiring.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:41:37 -0500, wrote:

All I know for sure is for at least the last 20 years it has been
MANDATORY in Waterloo Region, Ontario Canada, that a furnace be on a
dedicated circuit and that if the service panel is more than 15 feet
from the furnace, and not in the direct escape route from the furnace,
that a disconect switch must be provided as close to the furnace as is
practical, and the wiring to the furnace must be via metallic sheathed
cable (AKA BX) supported on a rigid structure from the ceiling (can be
strapped to gas pipe) IIRC that shutoff switch must be in the same
room as the furnace, and a safety lockout tab is highly recommended
(so no-one can accidentally turn the furnace on while it is being
serviced) Seem to remember that is mandatory if the switch is outside
the furnace room/enclosure.

Makes perfect sense to me, across the lake from you in New York, as
our furnace is on its own circuit and there's a disconnect switch
right on the side of the furnace that's next to the entrance of the
basement stairway: very handy. The switch is pretty high up (almost
6 ft.), so little kids can't reach it.