When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Kyle wrote:
When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

First question is where do you live?
Second is do you have power problems now?

Lou

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:50:38 -0800 (PST), Kyle
wrote:

When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Motors are pretty forgiving. A UPS on TVs and other electronics is a
good idea because things like cable boxes etc have to reset themselves
after any minor power failure. The UPS hides the power failure from
the device.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:53:20 -0500, LouB wrote:

Kyle wrote:
When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

First question is where do you live?
Second is do you have power problems now?

Lou
If he doesn't now, he will have. You can count on it.

On Feb 10, 12:46*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:50:38 -0800 (PST), Kyle
wrote:

When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Motors are pretty forgiving. A UPS on TVs and other electronics is a
good idea because things like cable boxes etc have to reset themselves
after any minor power failure. The UPS hides the power failure from
the device.


I would say you need neither. What you should have is good surge
protection, ideally located at the main panel and supplemented by
point of use protection that runs both the AC power as well as any
cable, phone, etc inputs through it. Personally, I don;t consider my
cable box or TV to be mission critical hardware and all I have to do
after a power outage is turn it back on.

A UPS is typically used for PC's in order to provide time to save work
in progress that has not been saved yet and to insure an orderly
shutdown. Again, if you have some mission critical stuff that needs
that level of protection, then get it. But for typical household
use, while it's nice, it's not essential. I've never used one an the
occasional power loss has never caused any problems for me. Since XP,
it doesn't even seem to need to scan the disk following power loss
much anymore.

I'm sure we'll be hearing from W Tom shortly.

On Feb 10, 10:50*am, Kyle wrote:
"power conditioner versus a battery back-up "

You don't have to choose, but they don't come cheap.
Stil if you want pure power, signifigantly cleaner than the power
company provides:
http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products...=661&EID=13820

On Feb 10, 10:50*am, Kyle wrote:
When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Are storms the issue. For me storms - lightning is an issue. Proper
grounding, surge protectors at the device and main panel and lightning
arrestor are needed. Its not going to stop a direct strike but helps
reduce risk. I would want a PC to have battery backup. Lightning comes
in everywhere, Electric, Phone line, cable, antenna, etc. Power usualy
goes out in storms for me. Often I shut off and unplug before the
storm, having been hit several times loosing 30 things once. Try to
protect the house as a system.

On Feb 10, 11:50*am, Kyle wrote:
And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Don't connect a refrigerator to a typical UPS. Constant spikes and
other problems from UPS power (in battery backup mode) may be harmful
to the refrigerator and some other appliances. But that same power is
not harmful to computers. All appliances contain internal
protection. Some appliances are more resilient than others. Regular
power irregularities are made irrelevant by how an appliance is
designed. trader and others have listed one 'whole house' protector
for rare events that might otherwise overwhelm protection in
appliances. Events that may occur once every seven years.

Cutting off power suddenly to a PC does no hardware damage. Sudden
power loss may cause data loss. But to hardware, power off is always
sudden. Hardware gets no warning that power will be removed. For
example, the first time a disk drive learns about power off is when
voltage drops. Computer hardware is designed to be powered off at any
time.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:47:48 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 10, 11:50Â*am, Kyle wrote:
And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Don't connect a refrigerator to a typical UPS. Constant spikes and
other problems from UPS power (in battery backup mode) may be harmful
to the refrigerator and some other appliances. But that same power is
not harmful to computers. All appliances contain internal
protection. Some appliances are more resilient than others. Regular
power irregularities are made irrelevant by how an appliance is
designed. trader and others have listed one 'whole house' protector
for rare events that might otherwise overwhelm protection in
appliances. Events that may occur once every seven years.

Cutting off power suddenly to a PC does no hardware damage. Sudden
power loss may cause data loss. But to hardware, power off is always
sudden. Hardware gets no warning that power will be removed. For
example, the first time a disk drive learns about power off is when
voltage drops. Computer hardware is designed to be powered off at any
time.
You are correct - HOWEVER, when the power comes back on, there are
sometimes wild excursions roughly centered around "normal" - and often
just before the power goes right"out" the same happens. Overhead
wires, thrown by the wind, short out, causing nasty surges that get
through to your equipment JUST before the power goes out.
Someone hits a hydro transformer, thowing 600 volts plus through the
line into your house for a split second before the protection fuse on
the transformer lets go.

A GOOD UPS protects your more sensitive equipment while a cheap one
does nothing for you in this case.

With TV sets costing over $2000 and computers only $300-$400, and
being able to fix my own computer while paying to have the TV fixed,
protecting the TV might make sense????? And the HighDef box costrs as
much as the computer. If you have a PVR, even more. You don't need
half an hour of run-time, but you need some kind of protection - my
choice is a dual conversion, or at least a real good line interactive,
UPS.

"Kyle" wrote in message
...

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator?

1. Battery backups (uninterruptible power supplies) are worth
the money for computers because conventional shutdown (even
if the power goes off) averts hard drive damage, puts off any need
to repair or reinstall operating systems. They are also convenient
for satellite TV systems, HDTVs etc. (not least because they
include surge protectors.)

2. Only large and expensive UPSs could keep refrigerators or
microwave ovens going. In the country, if you need electricity
to keep your furnace going, you need a generator, not a UPS.
It is hardly worth it for a fridge or cooker.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Feb 10, 4:27*pm, wrote:
*You are correct - HOWEVER, when the power comes back on, there are
sometimes wild excursions roughly centered around "normal" - and often
just before the power goes right"out" the same happens. Overhead
wires, thrown by the wind, short out, causing nasty surges that get
through to your equipment JUST before the power goes out.

That power-on is a popular myth. A need to power everything
simultaneously means voltage rises slowly. A power-on surge is not a
voltage surge. The power on surge is a current surge - equivalent to
restoring water to all houses simultaneously. What is at most risk if
voltage rises slowly? Motorized appliances. Therefore better air
conditioners and other motorized appliances will delay before drawing
electricity - to wait for that voltage to sufficiently rise. But
again, the solution is best part of that design. Voltage spikes on
power-on are (mostly) a popular urban myth.

Definition of that GOOD UPS is a building wide system often found in
facilities where failure is not acceptable. Plug-in UPSes (in battery
backup mode) actually output some of the 'dirtiest' electricity to a
TV or computer. Your recommendation is something different; a UPS that
typically costs $500. That UPS provides the same protection already
found in computer power supplies. If the computer power supply cannot
withstand that rare spike, then the same power supply in that dual
conversion UPS also does not.

UPS manufacturers caution to not use motorized appliances or power
strip protectors on a computer grade UPS because that output is
typically so 'dirty'. No problem for computers that must be so robust
- have the same protection also found in a dual conversion UPS.

OP is really asking about two completely different events. 1)
Damage created by sudden power-off or power-on is made irrelevant by
how all appliances are designed. 2) Other types of power problems may
even be created by a UPS in battery backup mode. Electrical problems
made irrelevant by properly designed electronics. Protection from
rare and destructive electrical events (maybe once every seven years)
means one solution for everything in the building. A solution to this
third event is so effective, if properly installed, that homeowners do
not even know that event existed.

Some purchase series mode power conditioners to reduce noise. Many
manufacturers hype such claims. But the devices that actually address
noise problems are more robust. See Surgex, Zerosurge, and Brickwall
for examples including size and cost.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:22:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 10, 4:27Â*pm, wrote:
Â*You are correct - HOWEVER, when the power comes back on, there are
sometimes wild excursions roughly centered around "normal" - and often
just before the power goes right"out" the same happens. Overhead
wires, thrown by the wind, short out, causing nasty surges that get
through to your equipment JUST before the power goes out.

That power-on is a popular myth. A need to power everything
simultaneously means voltage rises slowly. A power-on surge is not a
voltage surge. The power on surge is a current surge - equivalent to
restoring water to all houses simultaneously. What is at most risk if
voltage rises slowly? Motorized appliances. Therefore better air
conditioners and other motorized appliances will delay before drawing
electricity - to wait for that voltage to sufficiently rise. But
again, the solution is best part of that design. Voltage spikes on
power-on are (mostly) a popular urban myth.

Definition of that GOOD UPS is a building wide system often found in
facilities where failure is not acceptable. Plug-in UPSes (in battery
backup mode) actually output some of the 'dirtiest' electricity to a
TV or computer. Your recommendation is something different; a UPS that
typically costs $500. That UPS provides the same protection already
found in computer power supplies. If the computer power supply cannot
withstand that rare spike, then the same power supply in that dual
conversion UPS also does not.

The spike will NOT get through the dual conversion UPS to the
equipment, and the UPS is less expensive than damage to the protected
device. Your $300 computer, if it goes down and is mission critical
(business use) can cost you a LOT more than the cost of the computer
by the time you get it back up and running. The UPS costs the price of
the UPS - and no more. And generally they are pretty darn robust.

UPS manufacturers caution to not use motorized appliances or power
strip protectors on a computer grade UPS because that output is
typically so 'dirty'. No problem for computers that must be so robust
- have the same protection also found in a dual conversion UPS.

The output is not technically DIRTY - it is simply square wave instead
of sine wave. (or "quasi sine" in the case of intermediate models.)
Power supplies in computers are simply switch mode power supplies and
spikes can (and do) pass right through them. A couple of transorbs
don't do much. SOME high end power supplies have better protection,
but not the crap supplied in "consumer grade" systems.

OP is really asking about two completely different events. 1)
Damage created by sudden power-off or power-on is made irrelevant by
how all appliances are designed. 2) Other types of power problems may
even be created by a UPS in battery backup mode. Electrical problems
made irrelevant by properly designed electronics. Protection from
rare and destructive electrical events (maybe once every seven years)
means one solution for everything in the building. A solution to this
third event is so effective, if properly installed, that homeowners do
not even know that event existed.

Correct - but also Danged expensive.

Some purchase series mode power conditioners to reduce noise. Many
manufacturers hype such claims. But the devices that actually address
noise problems are more robust. See Surgex, Zerosurge, and Brickwall
for examples including size and cost.

On Feb 10, 4:55*pm, "Don Phillipson" wrote:
"Kyle" wrote in message

...

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator?

1. *Battery backups (uninterruptible power supplies) are worth
the money for computers because conventional shutdown (even
if the power goes off) averts hard drive damage, puts off any need
to repair or reinstall operating systems. *They are also convenient
for satellite TV systems, HDTVs etc. (not least because they
include surge protectors.)

Why do you need a battery backup for an HDTV? All you need is surge
protection, which is best applied at the panel for whole house
protection, followed by point-of use protection for items like the
HDTV.

As far as PC shutdowns, a UPS is certainly needed for mission
critical applications, where you either need to keep the system
running or at least be able to save the current application data that
has not yet been saved. But for routine home use, I don't see them
as necessary. For 25 years, I've had a variety of PCs that were on
all the time. They went through plenty of power losses and I never
had a hardware failure or a corrupted disk because of it. Running XP
now, it's rare following power loss that it even needs to scan the
disk.

And even if that disk were to get corrupted, it should be restorable
from a backup if you are doing things right. Good backup practice
is more critical than a UPS, because it protects not only from
possible disk corruption by power issues, but also from what is far
more likely in my experience, which is virus problems or actual drive
hardware failure for any reason.





2. *Only large and expensive UPSs could keep refrigerators or
microwave ovens going. * In the country, if you need electricity
to keep your furnace going, you need a generator, not a UPS.
It is hardly worth it for a fridge or cooker.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

wrote:
On Feb 10, 4:27 pm, wrote:
You are correct - HOWEVER, when the power comes back on, there are
sometimes wild excursions roughly centered around "normal" - and often
just before the power goes right"out" the same happens. Overhead
wires, thrown by the wind, short out, causing nasty surges that get
through to your equipment JUST before the power goes out.

That power-on is a popular myth.
Voltage spikes on
power-on are (mostly) a popular urban myth.

So they went from myth to mostly a myth? So clare is right?


The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the
major organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US).
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

And I agree with the comments by trader4.

That UPS provides the same protection already
found in computer power supplies. If the computer power supply cannot
withstand that rare spike, then the same power supply in that dual
conversion UPS also does not.

w believes that plug-in suppressors do not work.
But both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
The same protection is commonly included in UPSs. Any surge suppressor
in the US should be listed under UL1449.

All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in
suppressor. External connections, like phone and cable, also need to go
through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor
prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These
multiport suppressors are described in both guides.

Motors are, in general, the least vulnerable to surges. The NIST guide
cites US insurance information that indicates equipment most likely to
be damaged by lightning is computers with modem connection and TV
related equipment - presumably with cable connection. All can be damaged
by high voltage between signal and power wires.

Protection from
rare and destructive electrical events (maybe once every seven years)
means one solution for everything in the building.

w's favored service panel suppressor is a good idea.
But from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."

Service panel suppressors do not prevent high voltages from developing
between power and signal wires.


IMHO a power conditioner is seldom useful.

--
bud--

On Feb 10, 11:44 pm, wrote:
The spike will NOT get through the dual conversion UPS to the
equipment, and the UPS is less expensive than damage to the protected
device. ...

The output is not technically DIRTY - it is simply square wave instead
of sine wave. (or "quasi sine" in the case of intermediate models.)

You are ignoring what a destructive surge is. Current first flows
through everything in that circuit path, OR no surge exists. Even a
$300 computer that meets ATX standards must withstand 1000 volts.
That UPS power supply has the same numbers. If a surge can get
through a computer's power supply, then the same current will also
pass through the UPS. Surge voltage will increase as necessary to
maintain that current flow. If EE trained, you know that as a
constant current.

Those without electrical training assume a damaged item in a circuit
stops or absorbs surges. Nonsense. First a surge current flows
through everything in that circuit - simultaneously. Later something
in that path fails. If current flows thorugh the computer's supply,
the current flows through the UPS supply. Surges must be diverted; not
stopped and absorbed by a UPS.

If it provides the protection you claim, then where is the
manufacture spec that lists each type of surge and protection from
that surge? No such spec numbers exist. No such protection is
claimed by the manufacturer.


Technically 'dirty' electricity does not exist. If you don't like
the word, then choose another one. But the typical 120 volt UPS in
battery backup mode may output two 200 volts square waves with a spike
of up to 270 volts between those square waves. That spike and
numerous harmonic sine waves are potentially harmful to small electric
motors and power strip protectors. Another quoted a letter from APC
discussing this problem for other appliances. But 'dirty'
electricity is made irrelevant by how electronics are designed -
especially computers. What a $500 double conversion UPS would protect
from is not a problem for more robust appliances such as computers.

On Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:16:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 10, 11:44 pm, wrote:
The spike will NOT get through the dual conversion UPS to the
equipment, and the UPS is less expensive than damage to the protected
device. ...

The output is not technically DIRTY - it is simply square wave instead
of sine wave. (or "quasi sine" in the case of intermediate models.)

You are ignoring what a destructive surge is. Current first flows
through everything in that circuit path, OR no surge exists. Even a
$300 computer that meets ATX standards must withstand 1000 volts.
That UPS power supply has the same numbers. If a surge can get
through a computer's power supply, then the same current will also
pass through the UPS. Surge voltage will increase as necessary to
maintain that current flow. If EE trained, you know that as a
constant current.

Those without electrical training assume a damaged item in a circuit
stops or absorbs surges. Nonsense. First a surge current flows
through everything in that circuit - simultaneously. Later something
in that path fails. If current flows thorugh the computer's supply,
the current flows through the UPS supply. Surges must be diverted; not
stopped and absorbed by a UPS.

If it provides the protection you claim, then where is the
manufacture spec that lists each type of surge and protection from
that surge? No such spec numbers exist. No such protection is
claimed by the manufacturer.


Do you know what a "separately derived" power source is?
Do you know what a dual conversion power supply is?
Hint - a dual conversion power supply qualifies as a "separately
derived" power source. Voltage and current surges do NOT get through.

Specification for surge protection is "per EN 50082-1, Meets IEC 801 €“
4, IEEE 587"
That means 1kv AC and 5KV DC transient /burst line to ground .


Technically 'dirty' electricity does not exist.


"dirty power" is power with harmonics, spikes, and "noise"

If you don't like
the word, then choose another one. But the typical 120 volt UPS in
battery backup mode may output two 200 volts square waves with a spike
of up to 270 volts between those square waves.

A "GOOD" UPS does not. A "good" dual conversion UPS like the old
"Powerware prestige" produces a clean sine wave output.

That spike and
numerous harmonic sine waves are potentially harmful to small electric
motors and power strip protectors. Another quoted a letter from APC
discussing this problem for other appliances.

Consumer APC UPS units are some of the worst out there. Again, I said
a "good" UPS.

But 'dirty'
electricity is made irrelevant by how electronics are designed -
especially computers. What a $500 double conversion UPS would protect
from is not a problem for more robust appliances such as computers.

Well, even line interactive UPS units have reduced computer failures
at one of my clients from an average of 7 or 8 failures a year to less
than one. The power at the office is all over the map - there is a
large Weston's Bakery a block away, and when they come online, the
power gets nasty. Before putting in the UPS units I was replacing hard
drives and mother-boards as well as power supplies. I still see the
odd failures when computers get to be 6 or 7 years old, but none under
2 years any more - and only the odd power supply from 3 - 5 years. ATX
power supplies don't last as long as the older AT style (partly
because they are "on" all the time - even with the power switch turned
off.

wrote:

Those without electrical training assume a damaged item in a circuit
stops or absorbs surges. Nonsense.
Surges must be diverted; not
stopped and absorbed by a UPS.

w is one of those without electrical training that assumes a UPS works
by "stopping" and "absorbing" surges. Nonsense.

With minimal reading and thinking ability w could read in the IEEE
guide how plug-in suppressors actually work.

If it provides the protection you claim, then where is the
manufacture spec that lists each type of surge and protection from
that surge?

Each type of surge is nonsense.
Plug-in suppressors have MOVs from H-N, H-G, N-G. That is all possible
combinations and all surge modes.
w's favorite SquareD service panel suppressors do not "list each type of
surge".

No such protection is
claimed by the manufacturer.

Nonsense.
Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warrantees.


For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors (and UPSs with equivalent circuits) are effective.

Never seen - a source that agrees with w that plug-in suppressors are
NOT effective.

Never answered - simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

--
bud--

On Feb 11, 11:29 pm, wrote:
A "GOOD" UPS does not. A "good" dual conversion UPS like the old
"Powerware prestige" produces a clean sine wave output.
...
Consumer APC UPS units are some of the worst out there. Again, I said
a "good" UPS.

That redefinition of 'good' eliminates confusion. That 'good'
UPS costs about $500. Most plug-in UPSes are $100

Computers are so robust as to make even 'dirty' electricity from an
APC UPS irrelevant. Computer's supply must make irrelevant same
transients that are thousands of volts. Then install protection so
that those voltages do not enter a building.

Any surge that conducts through an ATX compliant computer supply
will blow through a 'good' UPS. Both meet the same voltage numbers
according to what you have posted. And then the other problem. A
safety ground wire bypasses computer's supply to conduct surge current
directly into electronics. Same wire also bypasses the $500 UPS.
Second reason why a UPS does not provide protection.

Third, where are protection specs? EN50082-1 says UPS controller
protects itself. Says nothing about protecting anything else. That
UPS can divert surges destructively into the adjacent computer and do
exactly what EN50082-1 says.

IEEE 587 also does not even make protection claims. IEEE 587
defines an electrical wave. If an IEEE 587 electrical wave does not
damage electronics inside the UPS, well, it says nothing about
protecting anything else. Where is a spec that claims a UPS protects
a computer? Specification does not exist. UPS only protects itself.

Kyle is asking about protection for everything. Would you have him
install a $500 UPS on each and every appliance? One each for his
refrigerator, dishwasher, washing machine, bathroom GFCIs, smoke
detectors, dimmer switches, clock radios, and electronics timer
switch? Of course not. To have no damage - and effective protection
means no damage to anything - then you recommend how many $500 UPSes?

An effective solution means everything is protected. 'Everything'
means a surge need not not even enter the building. A surge that does
not enter the building (a protector that costs about $1 per protected
appliance) is how high reliability facilities have no damage AND do
not use $500 plug-in UPSes. Protection of everything for hundreds of
times less money is the standard solution.

OP asked about protecting a refrigerator, TV, stereo, computers,
etc. Should he spend $500 per UPS for each?

Meanwhile, others say APC makes 'GOOD' UPSes. A different
definition for 'GOOD' has been clarified.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:46:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 11, 11:29 pm, wrote:
A "GOOD" UPS does not. A "good" dual conversion UPS like the old
"Powerware prestige" produces a clean sine wave output.
...
Consumer APC UPS units are some of the worst out there. Again, I said
a "good" UPS.

That redefinition of 'good' eliminates confusion. That 'good'
UPS costs about $500. Most plug-in UPSes are $100

Computers are so robust as to make even 'dirty' electricity from an
APC UPS irrelevant. Computer's supply must make irrelevant same
transients that are thousands of volts. Then install protection so
that those voltages do not enter a building.

It's not the BIG stuff that kills ATX power supplies. It's the high
frequency harmonics that apparently shorten power supply life by
stressing filter capacitors.

Any surge that conducts through an ATX compliant computer supply
will blow through a 'good' UPS. Both meet the same voltage numbers
according to what you have posted. And then the other problem. A
safety ground wire bypasses computer's supply to conduct surge current
directly into electronics. Same wire also bypasses the $500 UPS.
Second reason why a UPS does not provide protection.

Third, where are protection specs? EN50082-1 says UPS controller
protects itself. Says nothing about protecting anything else. That
UPS can divert surges destructively into the adjacent computer and do
exactly what EN50082-1 says.

IEEE 587 also does not even make protection claims. IEEE 587
defines an electrical wave. If an IEEE 587 electrical wave does not
damage electronics inside the UPS, well, it says nothing about
protecting anything else. Where is a spec that claims a UPS protects
a computer? Specification does not exist. UPS only protects itself.

Kyle is asking about protection for everything. Would you have him
install a $500 UPS on each and every appliance? One each for his
refrigerator, dishwasher, washing machine, bathroom GFCIs, smoke
detectors, dimmer switches, clock radios, and electronics timer
switch? Of course not. To have no damage - and effective protection
means no damage to anything - then you recommend how many $500 UPSes?

An effective solution means everything is protected. 'Everything'
means a surge need not not even enter the building. A surge that does
not enter the building (a protector that costs about $1 per protected
appliance) is how high reliability facilities have no damage AND do
not use $500 plug-in UPSes. Protection of everything for hundreds of
times less money is the standard solution.


Except a hole house filter does nothing for internally generated
harmonics - which a dual conversion UPS eliminates.
OP asked about protecting a refrigerator, TV, stereo, computers,
etc. Should he spend $500 per UPS for each?

You don't protect motors.

Meanwhile, others say APC makes 'GOOD' UPSes. A different
definition for 'GOOD' has been clarified.

Only APC's very best rate good in my book. And you don't buy them at
Best Buy or Circuit City.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:46:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 11, 11:29 pm, wrote:
A "GOOD" UPS does not. A "good" dual conversion UPS like the old
"Powerware prestige" produces a clean sine wave output.
...
Consumer APC UPS units are some of the worst out there. Again, I said
a "good" UPS.

That redefinition of 'good' eliminates confusion. That 'good'
UPS costs about $500. Most plug-in UPSes are $100

If it isn't worth a buck a watt it's inadequate.
If the UPS protecting your server is not worth as much as the
barebones server you are cutting corners. It's THAT SIMPLE.
On workstations, line interactive is usually OK - and that's half a
buck a watt. Anything less is junk and isn't doing you any good.

And if you are buying APC, the acceptable system price goes up about
50%.

Eaton Power (the old Exide/Powerware/Best) is my first choice.

wrote:

Where is a spec that claims a UPS protects
a computer? Specification does not exist. UPS only protects itself.

The usual drivel.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w that plug-in suppressors
are NOT effective.

Still never answered - simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors (and UPSs with equivalent circuits) are effective.

--
bud--

On Feb 12, 10:19*pm, wrote:
It's not the BIG stuff that kills ATX power supplies. It's the high
frequency harmonics that apparently shorten power supply life by
stressing filter capacitors.

You are simply inventing this stuff when convenient. Electric
motors are stressed or harmed by high frequency harmonics; not
computers. Appliance damage is created by what you call the 'big
stuff'. The 'big stuff' is the event that typically overwhelms
protection already inside all appliances. Protection from the 'big
stuff' is what the OP seeks.

We protect all household appliances by earthing 'big stuff'
completely with one solution in the breaker box. If you knew this
stuff, then you also know a "hole house filter" neither exists nor
provides recommended protection. Even a $500 UPS needs that one
protection device (which is not a filter) located at the breaker box.

Your own international standards say a $500 UPS has the same
internal protection also found in all computer power supplies.
Nothing more. That UPS must have same protection that a computer
needs. UPS makes no claims to protect an attached computer. UPS only
claims to protect itself. Your standards say that UPS only contains
protection already inside computers - to only protect itself and
nothing more.

Protecting each appliance with a $500 UPS is because high frequency
harmonics (square waves) cause damage? More nonsense. Absolute
nonsense. Did you know all electronic appliances are even required to
contain filters to eliminate high frequencies? Just one of so many
obvious reasons that make high frequency harmonics irrelevant. When
do trivial high frequency harmonics exist? If using a computer grade
UPS in battery backup mode. That computer grade UPS only damages
computers? Nonsense you have posted.

How to eliminate that mythical threat? Simply don't use a UPS and
have no high frequency harmonics.

One event that typically causes appliance damage occurs about once
every seven years. The 'big stuff' is made irrelevant by a solution
located in the breaker box. For example, every telco everywhere in
the world locates complete solutions where all wires enter the
building AND connected short to earth ground. Telcos use no plug-in
solutions such as that $500 UPS. Telcos need protection; do not
waste money on myths.

Spending $500 to protect one appliance is nonsense. To eliminate
mythical damage from high frequency harmonics, then do not use a
UPS. Meanwhile, manufacturers recommend not putting motorized
appliances on a UPS. Why? High frequency harmonics from a UPS are
harmful to motors - not to computers.

What stresses capacitors? Myths that fear high frequency
harmonics. Myths that forget what provides protection for all
appliances. Eliminate the myths. Instead install one effective
solution in the breaker box. That same solution is what every high
reliability facility does to have complete protection. That one
solution means the 'big stuff' need not cause electrical damage. That
one solution means a homeowner does not even know the 'big stuff'
existed.

Effective protection for everything in the house costs about $1 per
protected appliance. The 'big stuff' that never enters a house means
no appliance damage. Means protection inside every appliance is not
overwhelmed.

On Feb 11, 12:27*pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 10, 4:27 pm, wrote:
*You are correct - HOWEVER, when the power comes back on, there are
sometimes wild excursions roughly centered around "normal" - and often
just before the power goes right"out" the same happens. Overhead
wires, thrown by the wind, short out, causing nasty surges that get
through to your equipment JUST before the power goes out.

* That power-on is a popular myth.
Voltage spikes on
power-on are (mostly) a popular urban myth.

So they went from myth to mostly a myth? So clare is right?

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversio...
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" *published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the
major organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US).
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" *published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

And I agree with the comments by trader4.

That UPS provides the same protection already
found in computer power supplies. *If the computer power supply cannot
withstand that rare spike, then the same power supply in that dual
conversion UPS also does not.

w *believes that plug-in suppressors do not work.
But both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
The same protection is commonly included in UPSs. Any surge suppressor
in the US should be listed under UL1449.

All interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in
suppressor. External connections, like phone and cable, also need to go
through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor
prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These
multiport suppressors are described in both guides.

Motors are, in general, the least vulnerable to surges. The NIST guide
cites US insurance information that indicates equipment most likely to
be damaged by lightning is computers with modem connection and TV
related equipment - presumably with cable connection. All can be damaged
by high voltage between signal and power wires.

Protection from
rare and destructive electrical events (maybe once every seven years)
means one solution for everything in the building.

w's favored service panel suppressor is a good idea.
But from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."

Service panel suppressors do not prevent high voltages from developing
between power and signal wires.

IMHO a power conditioner is seldom useful.

--
bud--

Bud

The whole house surge protectors that I install protects all wire born
utilities that enter the home including the power, coaxial cable, and
twisted pair types of conductors. My experience with them has been
very positive. I have one customer who had a tree struck by lightning
in his back yard over one year after his whole house protector
install. Both neighbors suffered appliance and electronic damage.
All he lost was the GFCI on his garden pool circuit. That item being
only twenty feet from the tree that was struck I think the whole house
surge protector did a pretty good job. None of his unit protectors
were destroyed but I urged their replacement anyway. I did have to
replace the power module of the protector as it was in failure alarm
after the event but the seventy dollars was far less then the cost to
either of his neighbors. I had installed a Rural Electrification
Administration (REA) style Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) that
was split bolted to the neutral on the customer side of the Service
Drop / Service Entry Conductor splice. The inspector said he hadn't
seen one like it in decades. That particular GEC was the one to the
driven rod supplemental electrodes. The main GEC was run to the water
service entry which is a copper pipe connected directly to a very
large water utility underground piping network. Having been badly hit
by the failure of early plastic pipe offerings the local utility does
not permit any plastic piping in it's multi-county water main network.

My point is that an all wire utility type of whole house protector can
do a good job of protecting from voltage differences between the
various signal and power lines if it is conscientiously installed.

--
Tom Horne

w_tom wrote:

That UPS must have same protection that a computer
needs. UPS makes no claims to protect an attached computer.

Poor w is delusional.

The 'big stuff' is made irrelevant by a solution
located in the breaker box.

Repeating from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."

Service panel suppressors do not prevent damage from high voltage
between power and signal wires. High voltage between power and signal
wires is likely to cause most damage.

But a service panel suppressor is a good idea.


Still never seen - a source that agrees with w that plug-in suppressors
are NOT effective.

Still never answered - simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors (and UPSs with equivalent circuits) are effective.

--
bud--

Tom Horne wrote:
On Feb 11, 12:27 pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversio...
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the
major organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US).
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

And I agree with the comments by trader4.

Protection from
rare and destructive electrical events (maybe once every seven years)
means one solution for everything in the building.

w's favored service panel suppressor is a good idea.
But from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."

Service panel suppressors do not prevent high voltages from developing
between power and signal wires.

Bud

The whole house surge protectors that I install protects all wire born
utilities that enter the home including the power, coaxial cable, and
twisted pair types of conductors. My experience with them has been
very positive. I have one customer who had a tree struck by lightning
in his back yard over one year after his whole house protector
install. Both neighbors suffered appliance and electronic damage.
All he lost was the GFCI on his garden pool circuit. That item being
only twenty feet from the tree that was struck I think the whole house
surge protector did a pretty good job. None of his unit protectors
were destroyed but I urged their replacement anyway. I did have to
replace the power module of the protector as it was in failure alarm
after the event but the seventy dollars was far less then the cost to
either of his neighbors.

One element of surge protection is having a short ground wire connecting
phone and cable entry protectors and the "ground" at the power service.
The service protector you install very effectively does that by
combining all the protection in one unit. (The cable and phone
distribution then has to be from the load terminals of the protector.)

There are some possibilities that those service units can not cover,
like a real close strike (back yard tree) can produce a surge voltage
with building wiring acting as an antenna (for instance cable and power
wires acting as a loop antenna which is connected to a TV).

Another, which is in the IEEE guide, is with a very near strike a pad
mounted A/C compressor-condenser may be at a very different voltage than
that the building wiring. Same for submersible pumps (though they are
likely to contain surge protection). And could easily be true for the
garden GFCI,

I had installed a Rural Electrification
Administration (REA) style Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) that
was split bolted to the neutral on the customer side of the Service
Drop / Service Entry Conductor splice. The inspector said he hadn't
seen one like it in decades. That particular GEC was the one to the
driven rod supplemental electrodes. The main GEC was run to the water
service entry which is a copper pipe connected directly to a very
large water utility underground piping network. Having been badly hit
by the failure of early plastic pipe offerings the local utility does
not permit any plastic piping in it's multi-county water main network.

IMHO for surge protection the N-G bond point ("main bonding jumper") is
best located at the service panel where branch circuit neutrals and
grounds terminate. The grounding electrodes would then be connected at
that point.

I assume your water pipe is connected to that point. I didn't dig out
the code, but I believe all electrodes, particularly a required
supplemental electrode, have to connect to the same point. But I
wouldn't argue with connecting a rod at the utility service connection
point.

[Gee - 'no one' told you not to use a water pipe as an earthing electrode.]

My point is that an all wire utility type of whole house protector can
do a good job of protecting from voltage differences between the
various signal and power lines if it is conscientiously installed.

I agree.
A surge may float the wiring in a building far above "absolute" ground
A lot of the protection is actually that all the wiring floats together.

---------
Nice to see you around.

--
bud--

On Feb 16, 12:34*pm, bud-- wrote:
There are some possibilities that those service units can not cover,
like a real close strike (back yard tree) can produce asurgevoltage
with building wiring acting as an antenna (for instance cable and power
wires acting as a loop antenna which is connected to a TV).

Put numbers to a surge induced by lightning maybe 50 feet away.

In another example, a one hundred foot dipole antenna was less than
30 feet from a nearby strike. Voltage on that disconnected antenna
lead was thousands of volts. Voltage induced by electromagnetic
fields. Then we put an NE-2 neon glow lamp on that antenna lead.
Milliamps of surge current caused voltage to drop to tens of volts.
Current created by a nearby strike was so trivial as to not even harm
the NE-2 neon lamp.

Any surge created by fields from a nearby strike is made irrelevant
by a 'whole house' protector, by protection already inside every
appliance, and even by incandescent bulbs.

In another case, lightning struck a lightning rod. The entire
lightning bolt traveled to earth only four feet away from a PC that
was just inside the wall. What did those massive fields from a direct
lightning strike do? Those fields were so destructive as to not even
cause the computer to blink. No crash. No damage. No massive surge
induced by a lightning bolt only four feet away.

If lightning creates fields with massive surge energy, then a nearby
strike would destroy every nearby car radio and cell phone. Why no
damage? Even transistors connected to something optimized to collect
field energy (an antenna) results in no transistor damage.
Protection inside electronics is that simple and robust. Those fields
do not create the massive surges promoted in myths.

Some facilities will take care to interconnect equipment so that a
data error on low power data cables does not occur. But fields
inducing a hardware destructive surge are a popular urban myth.

A greater threat is a surge being earthed by the ground wire. That
wire must not be bundled (inches away) with other wires so that surges
are not induced on (do not jump into) those other wires. Proper
protector earthing means its ground wire is separated from other wires

Ground wire inside romex would also induce surges on other wires -
too close. Just another reason why safety ground wires do not
properly earth surge currents.

Earthing wires are best routed separate from all other wires.
Destructive surges created fields from a nearby struck tree are only
popular myths.

w_tom wrote:
On Feb 16, 12:34 pm, bud-- wrote:
There are some possibilities that those service units can not cover,
like a real close strike (back yard tree) can produce asurgevoltage
with building wiring acting as an antenna (for instance cable and power
wires acting as a loop antenna which is connected to a TV).

Any surge created by fields from a nearby strike is made irrelevant
by a 'whole house' protector, by protection already inside every
appliance, and even by incandescent bulbs.

A service panel suppressor, of course, does nothing to limit the voltage
between power and signal wires. w_ doesn't explain how incandescent
bulbs help.

The author of the NIST guide is an expert in the field of surges and
protection. In the NIST guide he says (guide page 14):
"Intruder alarm systems using wires between sensors and their central
control unit can be disturbed - and damaged in severe cases - by
lightning striking close to the house. The wires necessary for this
type of installation extend to all points of the house and act as an
antenna system that collects energy from the field generated by the
lightning strike, and protection should be included in the design of the
system, rather than added later by the owner."
And more generally (guide page 13):
"the antenna for a remote garage door opener, the sensor wiring for an
intrusion alarm system, the video signal part of a satellite dish
receiver. Surges in these systems are caused by nearby lightning strikes."

But apparently w_ is smarter.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in
suppressors are NOT effective.

Still never answered - simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

On Feb 17, 10:58*am, bud-- wrote:
A service panel suppressor, of course, does nothing to limit the voltage
between power and signal wires. *w_ *doesn't explain how incandescent
bulbs help.

Bud claims electromagnetic fields create massive voltages on
interior signal wires. Meanwhile, signal wires connect to
semiconductors that can withstand 2000 or 15,000 volts without
damage. Those numbers are routine and are now an international
standard. Electronics already contains robust protection that makes
those fields even less problematic.

If Bud's products did anything useful, then Bud repeatedly posted
those numeric protection specs. He refuses. No power strip protector
makes any protection claim. So now Bud is promoting another myth -
surges created by electromagnetic fields.

Earth one 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning
strikes cause no household damage. Connect even the telco provided for
free 'whole house' protectors to the same earthing. Earth provides
the protection which is why one 'whole house' protector is so
effective.

w_tom wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:58 am, bud-- wrote:
A service panel suppressor, of course, does nothing to limit the voltage
between power and signal wires. w_ doesn't explain how incandescent
bulbs help.

Bud claims electromagnetic fields create massive voltages on
interior signal wires.

Ooh - massive voltages...
As usual, w_'s opinions are contradicted by the NIST surge guru who
wrote the NIST guide - ignoring the quotes I provided.


As usual - no source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors are
NOT effective.

As usual - no answers to simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

On Feb 18, 10:51*am, bud-- wrote:
As usual, w_'s opinions are contradicted by the NIST surge guru who
wrote the NIST guide - ignoring the quotes I provided.

Bud is lying again. That NIST guru said in the very first
conclusion of his IEEE paper:
Conclusion:
1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly
show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur
even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are
present at the point of connection of appliances.

Plug-in (point of connection) protectors can even create appliance
damage as the IEEE guide shows on Page 42 Figure 8 - 8000 volt damage
to the adjacent TV. Even Bud admits a power strip does not claim
surge protection. See manufacturer numeric specs he refuses to
provide. Sales promoters are hired to spin myths; to maintain the
scam.

Where are electromagnetic fields creating destructive surges?
Another Bud myth necessary to promote the scam.

Tom Horne demonstrated what engineers have seen for generations.
Tom Horne demonstrates why earthing and a 'whole house' protector has
been the effective solution for over 100 years. Protection is not
Bud's magic strip that stops and absorbs what three miles of sky could
not. Protection is about earthing surges outside a building - one
'whole house' protector so that "objectionable differences" do not
exist.

w_tom wrote:
On Feb 18, 10:51 am, bud-- wrote:

As usual, w_'s opinions are contradicted by the NIST surge guru who
wrote the NIST guide - ignoring the quotes I provided.

Bud is lying again. That NIST guru said in the very first
conclusion of his IEEE paper:

The village idiot forgets to mention that Martzloff said in the same
1994 document:
"Mitigation of the threat can take many forms. One solution. illustrated
in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport
plug-in surge suppressor]."

And in 2001 Martzloff wrote the NIST guide which also says plug-in
suppressors are effective.

Plug-in (point of connection) protectors can even create appliance
damage as the IEEE guide shows on Page 42 Figure 8 - 8000 volt damage
to the adjacent TV.

If the village idiot could only read and think he could discover what
the IEEE says in this example:
- A plug-in suppressor protects the TV connected to it.
- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground
wire from cable entry ground block to the ground at the power service
that is far too long. In that case the IEEE guide says "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector."
- w_'s favored power service suppressor would provide absolutely NO
protection.

It is simply a lie that the plug-in suppressor in the IEEE example
damages the second TV.

Even Bud admits a power strip does not claim
surge protection.

The village idiot is hallucinating again/still.

Where are electromagnetic fields creating destructive surges?
Another Bud myth necessary to promote the scam.

I provided quotes from the NIST guide that contradict poor w_.

Protection is not
Bud's magic strip that stops and absorbs what three miles of sky could
not. Protection is about earthing surges outside a building

The village idiot has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that
surge protection must directly use earthing. w_ believes plug-in
suppressors (which are not well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE
guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING (limiting) the
voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the
suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work by stopping or absorbing or
magic. And they do not work primarily by earthing. The guide explains
earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

There are 98,615,938 other web sites, including 13,843,032 by lunatics,
and w_ can't find another lunatic that agrees with him that plug-in
suppressors are NOT effective. All you have are w_'s rants based on his
religious belief in earthing.

And, as always, no answers to simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this
paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge
suppressor]"?
- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the
IEEE example, pdf page 42?
- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector"?

--
bud--

On Feb 10, 11:50*am, Kyle wrote:
When it comes to protecting major electronics like tee-vees, stereos
or home theater systems, and personal computers, what are the benefits
and drawbacks of using a power conditioner versus a battery back-up
unit?

I mean, beside the obvious, that a battery back-up allows you to shut
things down properly rather than having the power cut-off suddenly. I
know that's not good to do to a PC, but how bad is that for other
household electronics?

And what about a major appliance like a refrigerator? Should that have
some sort of protection on it, or can its motor handle the sort of
spikes and drops electric providers seem to send down the line with
some regularity?

Of all of the things that should be on a UPS, your cordless phone is
high on the list. You never know when you'll need a phone during a
blackout.