wrote in message
...
On Jan 21, 7:55 pm, "Jim2009" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jan 21, 3:58 pm, "Jim2009" wrote:





wrote in message

...
On Jan 21, 2:57 am, "Jim2009" wrote:

"Ray" wrote in message

...

This query seeks experience of others on cable, digital, and
satellite
TV
services.

We live in a six-unit apartment building. Is it possible to get a
single
cable or satellite service for the entire building -- obviously at
lower
cost? It would seem to me no different than getting service in a
single-family residence with TVs in six rooms.

I suppose I could also ask if it might be possible to get a single
internet service, using wireless, which would give every unit a
connection. Actually, you probably could do that without the server
even
knowing it.

But, as Richard Nixon so eloquently said, "that would be wrong."

Sharing an Internet connection is easy, all you need is your cable
modem
and
a wireless router. Many routers allow up to 50 connections. You might
want
a router with extended coverage (see wireless standards). Linksys is
the
best brand. Each user must then have a wireless adapter installed in
their
PC. PCI Adapters for desktops, PCMCIA (cards for laptops, most new
laptops
have built in wireless) or a USB wireless adapter that plugs into your
USB
port and can be used with any PC.
See more info athttp://www.linksysbycisco.com/US/en/home

You could run the Router OPEN, meaning anyone could access the network
or
better yet password protect your network and provide approved users
with
the network password. Security for wireless networks use to be more
difficult to setup, thus there were many OPEN networks, but todays
software
makes it quite easy to accomplish a secure WAN.

Having mulitple users on the same network is not an issue.

There are actually multiple issues:

1 - Is it permissible in the contract with the cable company?

1A) No, it would have to be a hush-hush deal with your neighbors. "Open'
access (unprotected router) are not allowed by many cable providers. And
sharing of a PSW protected router is I'm sure a no-no too, but it's not
like
your sharing a physical cable, so there's little a cable company can do.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Various states have specific laws
covering cable service and what constitutes theft of service. I would
not be surprised to find that in some cases, that in addition to civil
exposure, you might actually have the possibility of criminal
prosecution.

Yeah, I pretty sure these is a difference between tracing a physical
shared
cable and a wireless connection that you can not see.

Is it highly likely? Probably not. But suppose the guy in 6b gets
****ed off at you, decides to rat you out, and calls the cable company
and tells them what's been going on. You want to be the guy with the
contract with the cable company for one legitimate internet service?

What's been going on? He hacked my router, hacking is a criminal offense!


So is lying to investigators, if it came to that. You think that's a
good idea too? Here's the guy reselling service, collecting money,
and proposing to add it to monthly condo fees. Surely there is both
an accounting trail and other condo owners who could easily yield the
truth.


Who said anythig about reselling it? Maybe this guy owns the units and just
wants to add free wireless to the package like a washer and dryer room.
Businesses do it all the time, why couldn't a owner?



Apartment people do this all the time, but it's usually not a shared
deal,
just a few non-techs with Open Access being taken advantage of by techs.

Someone getting into your wireless service without your knowledge and
permission is an entirely different situation from you getting one
legitimate service and then sharing it by becoming the network
administrator, collecting the payments from others, etc.

Oh, so you recommend he should just set up an OPEN router and let other
discoved it, OK.



No, I never recommended any such thing. I just pointed out that
trying to equate setting up a shared internet connection for an
apartment complex off a single individual internet connection to
someone happening to find an open wireless internet has no validity.
What I am suggesting is that contrary to your claim that there is no
issue with setting up a shared internet service off a single apt
service, there are in fact many issues, both potentially legal, as
well as practical. Before he proceeds, among other things, he should
consider:

A - Is it allowed under the cable contract?

It is for many businesses, so maybe he gets a bus account?

B - If not, does he want to be the guy in who's name the service is
in? What happens if 5 years later the guy in 6b calls the cable
company, tells them Ray has been the administrator, collecting fees,
etc and the cable company comes and wants payment from Ray for full
internet fees for 5 apts for 5 years?

LOL! What if the sky falls?

C - If it's not allowed, what does state law say, if anything, about
it? I would think in many states, it would be considered theft of
services.

LOL! Yeah the jails are just full of people that had Open access. LOL!

D - Does Ray want to be the guy people call at 10PM when they can't
get connected, for whatever reason?

Sure, there's an extra service charge for calls made after 5 PM! LOL!

E - Who's going to put in the system, make sure coverage is OK for the
entire building, maintain it, etc?

My 5 year old nephew is available on weekends.

F - What happens when the guy in 6b is downloading heavy traffic,
impacting others?

You can limit the bandwith per user in the router setup if needed.

And in view of all that, whether it's worth saving $30 a month. I
know the answer for me is no.

Well, everyone has to make their own decisions.



2 - How much bandwith the service provides versus what loads all the
different users will be placing on it.

2A) My cable provider has 3 levels, 1.5 Mbps, 8 Mbps, and 20 Mbps. Many
people still use dial-up at 56 Kbps! How many times will 56K go into 1.5
M?

Sure, just as I'm sure there are many people still running Win98 on a
386. But it's not the typical scenario today. What is more typical
is to have users downloading r/t video, large video files, or other
heavy demands.

Your not downloading **** unless your using a binary news reader with
multiple connections.


LOL





Your sharing the bandwith of the cable anyways with all your neighbors
even
if they all had separate paying accounts, but with one modem your
bandwith
is limited to your provider level.

Yes, but so what? I have around 1.5mbits up, 4.5 down and the system
can handle that with the typical load of all the others on the entire
cable system. I periodically benchmark it. Even so, it can take
some time to download larger files. I would not want to split my
bandwith with 5 other users.

Larger files.... LOL.... give me some sizes? Even if you could find a
large file on the internet, you would still only be using one connection,
one connection can only use so much bandwith.


Really LOL now. Even if you could find a large file on the internet?


You been watching too many
Cable company commercials where they keep trying to sell you faster and
faster speeds when you don't need them.


So, says you. Every speed increase I've ever had in internet
connectivity has given me a speed boost that I both noticed and
used. I'm at around 4.5mbits down now, and not about to share that
with 5 other households.

I have 3 PC's networked, 1 wired, 2 wireless and have seen no problems at
all when all are in use.



Even at a 1.5 Mbps account, several
surfers would get along fine. In the router set-up you can restrict
(limit)
the banwith of each user if needed but this is probably not necessary.

Here is a cut and paste "Did you know your cable speed will vary
depending
on the usage pattern of your neighbors? Cable modem services share
bandwidth
among subscribers in a locality. The same cable line connects to many
households. If many of your neighbors access the Internet
simulataneously,
it is a distinct possibility that cable speeds for you (and them) will
decrease significantly during those times."

Yes, which is a good reason why you probably don't want to take the
bandwith that you already have and split it 6 ways

That statement makes no sense. First of all you not splitting it 6 ways,
your sharing it 6 ways.



Choose whatever words you like.






3 - Can you get good coverage for all the apts?

3 A) Thats not an issue with todays hardware, proper placing of
equipment
may be needed. For example it would be best if the router was near the
center of the building and not down in a corner basement.

That is precisely the issue. Who's gonna screw around to find the
right solution and the right place to put it? Suppose you buy a
bunch of gear and it don't work where you thought you could put it?
Of course you can ultimatley deliver a wireless solution. My point
was you may not be able to cover 6 apartments with a typical home
router, ie the kind many cable companies give you for free, or an easy
solution, etc. I've been in plenty of expensive hotels with wireless
where coverage was spotty and speed was poor.

You obviously know little or nothing about todays extended routers and how
easy they are to setup. If you buy something and it does not work take it
back to Bestbuy and get a refund. You don't get out of the house much huh?
Your typical home router is based upon commerial hardware that has been in
use for years before people at home starting installing them. Buy Linksys!


Sure, you can buy stuff. You can screw around, and return it if it
doesn't work. I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who will
tell you they have had trouble getting full coverage in a single
family home, let alone in an apt building. I'm sure all that is just
a non-issue to you, but I think to most people, becoming the network
installer, administrator, and go-to person, does present issues.


I'm sure they are plenty of people that can't hook up a DVD player or even
spell PC. If they are not smart enough to do it does that mean they
shouldn't? There's a learning process for everyone. Linksys has very good
support and plenty of documentation on their website.


So the hotel had poor service, so what, thier pool probably had **** in it
too. How old is your PC?

The point is, it's not uncommon to find hotels where coverage is not
complete and signal strength may not be good. And hotels have
professionally installed systems, not a hack job put together by a
clueless amateur.

LOL, Just becuase the hotels you stayed in had bad coverage (per you) that
means that this 6-by-unit can not install wireless and get complete
coverage? If they had bad coverage it was their fault, cheap equipment, not
enough routers, bad install, it wasn't becuase it's not possbile. Many
hotels have double steel walls, what maybe every 14' to 16'. And maybe they
placed a sinlge router in the middle of the building instead of two on each
end. Corps have been using wireless for years, this not new un-tested
technology just for home users.

Once again check your laptop, upgrade your wireless device, ask for a room
closer to the router or bring a cat5 cable and plug into the wall.



Cable companies don't give away anything for free. If they did it would be
junk.



My Scientific Atlanta cable box and my Motorola Cable modem have
worked fine for years.

And they were free? LOL.... I will give you a FREE 32' HDTV and you must use
it for two years, and pay me $80 a month. If you choose to stop using the
HDTV, you can pay me $1920 and the HDTV is your FREE to keep. Deal?



4 - Who's going to administer the network and be the guy that gets
called when the guy in 6b says his wireless internet is out, or
someone wants to change their email address, etc.

4A) Something to be worked among friends. And just use Yahoo, or Hotmail
for email.

Friends? The guys is talking about 6 apartments. Who knows who is
in any of them now or the future?

Who knows? Only the OP knows, and who cares about future tenants, figure
that out as it goes. It's not like the future tenant is going to see the
wireless signals and call the cable cops. Yeah, I think I heard some
Internet sharing going on last night.


I'd think he might be a little concerned when the new folks move in.
The guy in #6 tells the new guy in #4 about the arrangement and how to
get cheap internet. Turns out the guy in #4 works for the cable
company, or his wife is in law enforcement. All sorts of interesting
possibilities for the "network administrator."

LOL, ever drive over 55MPH? Ever make a u-turn when you shouldn't? Ever
hear of a crooked cop?

So the buidling comes with free wireless, are you as a tenant going to be
concerned about where the router is, and how it's conected and who's paying
the bill? It's free it's, it's there, use it if you want, if it's down then
wait until it's up.



He could just share with the guy accross the hall or at the other end of
the
building. Hey times are tough for some and manys families with kids need
Internet. Maybe this guy will share without charging. It's not like a bank
job! The prices they charge for high speed internet is rediculous becuase
they have a monopoly until fiber optics becomes wide spread.



So, if the cable contract says the service is for a single family home/
apt you're obviously OK stealing it and reselling it with the argument
that the cable company charges too much. The typical price of $40
seems fair to me. What else is it OK to steal?

Who said you he had to re-sell it? I'm not sure I would personally classify
this as stealing, the connection is being paid for, it's just being used by
more partys then allowed by contract (if single family account). What's the
differnce between me having 6 PC's in my house using one wireless router or
having 5 of them in someone else's house? Does this cost the cable company
more? No. So what is being stolen? What is not being paid for?


Cheers,
Jim

On Jan 22, 4:25*pm, "Jim2009" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Jan 21, 7:55 pm, "Jim2009" wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Jan 21, 3:58 pm, "Jim2009" wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Jan 21, 2:57 am, "Jim2009" wrote:

"Ray" wrote in message

...

This query seeks experience of others on cable, digital, and
satellite
TV
services.

We live in a six-unit apartment building. Is it possible to get a
single
cable or satellite service for the entire building -- obviously at
lower
cost? It would seem to me no different than getting service in a
single-family residence with TVs in six rooms.

I suppose I could also ask if it might be possible to get a single
internet service, using wireless, which would give every unit a
connection. Actually, you probably could do that without the server
even
knowing it.

But, as Richard Nixon so eloquently said, "that would be wrong."

Sharing an Internet connection is easy, all you need is your cable
modem
and
a wireless router. Many routers allow up to 50 connections. You might
want
a router with extended coverage (see wireless standards). Linksys is
the
best brand. Each user must then have a wireless adapter installed in
their
PC. PCI Adapters for desktops, PCMCIA (cards for laptops, most new
laptops
have built in wireless) or a USB wireless adapter that plugs into your
USB
port and can be used with any PC.
See more info athttp://www.linksysbycisco.com/US/en/home

You could run the Router OPEN, meaning anyone could access the network
or
better yet password protect your network and provide approved users
with
the network password. Security for wireless networks use to be more
difficult to setup, thus there were many OPEN networks, but todays
software
makes it quite easy to accomplish a secure WAN.

Having mulitple users on the same network is not an issue.

There are actually multiple issues:

1 - Is it permissible in the contract with the cable company?

1A) No, it would have to be a hush-hush deal with your neighbors. "Open'
access (unprotected router) are not allowed by many cable providers. And
sharing of a PSW protected router is I'm sure a no-no too, but it's not
like
your sharing a physical cable, so there's little a cable company can do.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. Various states have specific laws
covering cable service and what constitutes theft of service. I would
not be surprised to find that in some cases, that in addition to civil
exposure, you might actually have the possibility of criminal
prosecution.

Yeah, I pretty sure these is a difference between tracing a physical
shared
cable and a wireless connection that you can not see.

Is it highly likely? Probably not. But suppose the guy in 6b gets
****ed off at you, decides to rat you out, and calls the cable company
and tells them what's been going on. You want to be the guy with the
contract with the cable company for one legitimate internet service?

What's been going on? He hacked my router, hacking is a criminal offense!

So is lying to investigators, if it came to that. * You think that's a
good idea too? * Here's the guy reselling service, collecting money,
and *proposing to add it to monthly condo fees. *Surely there is both
an accounting trail and other condo owners who could easily yield the
truth.

Who said anythig about reselling it? Maybe this guy owns the units and just
wants to add free wireless to the package like a washer and dryer room.

From the context and the flow of the thread, if you paid attention
before giving blanket advice, it's quite obvious that Ray doesn't own
the units. And in fact he had this to say:

"The directors could vote to make the cable/satellite service a part
of the
monthly maintainence fee -- just as we do with heat and water. "

Does that sound like he owns a rental building? As for the comparison
to a washer/dryer room, well there is none. Presumably, he would OWN
the washer, dryer and building. I seriously doubt an individual
cable internet account contract allows one to distribute access to 5
other apts.



Businesses do it all the time, why couldn't a owner?

Because of the above and if you follow the thread, he doesn't own the
building. The building could get it, and distribute it, as any other
business, eg hotel would, PROVIDED THEIR CONTRACT WITH THE SERVICE
PROVIDER ALLOWS IT.




Apartment people do this all the time, but it's usually not a shared
deal,
just a few non-techs with Open Access being taken advantage of by techs.

Someone getting into your wireless service without your knowledge and
permission is an entirely different situation from you getting one
legitimate service and then sharing it by becoming the network
administrator, collecting the payments from others, etc.

Oh, so you recommend he should just set up an OPEN router and let other
discoved it, OK.

No, I never recommended any such thing. * * I just pointed out that
trying to equate setting up a shared internet connection for an
apartment complex off a single individual internet connection to
someone happening to find an open wireless internet has no validity.
What I am suggesting is that contrary to your claim that there is no
issue with setting up a shared internet service off a single apt
service, there are in fact many issues, both potentially legal, as
well as practical. *Before he proceeds, among other things, he should
consider:

A - Is it allowed under the cable contract?

It is for many businesses, so maybe he gets a bus account?

B - If not, does he want to be the guy in who's name the service is
in? * What happens if 5 years later the guy in 6b calls the cable
company, tells them Ray has been the administrator, collecting fees,
etc and the cable company comes and wants payment from Ray for full
internet fees for 5 apts for 5 years?

LOL! *What if the sky falls?

The likelihood of him getting nailed and screwed is a lot higher than
the sky falling. By that standard, gee, why should I have insurance
on my house. The chance of a fire is remote.




C - If it's not allowed, what does state law say, if anything, *about
it? * I would think in many states, it would be considered theft of
services.

LOL! *Yeah the jails are just full of people that had Open access. *LOL!


Again, you are deliberatley comparing two very different things. One
is someone who has an unsecured wireless network and SOMEONE NEARBY
CASUALLY ACCESSES IT. The other is telling Ray that there is no
issue with him purposefully setting up his internet service to be
shared by, and then paid for one way or another, by 5 other
apartments. Got it now?

As for even the open access part, here's what CNN had to say about it
recently. And note that they don't give even your blanket
endorsement that it's OK and not an issue:




"The spread of wireless is opening lots of opportunity to log on for
free, but experts urge caution.

Will this land you in jail?
The legality of stealing your neighbor's connection is murky at best.

"All of this stuff is so new, it's hard to say what the liability
issues are," said Robert Hale, a San Francisco-based attorney who
recently published an academic paper on the subject.

Hale points out that there is a federal law on the books that
ostensibly prohibits using someone's access point with out their
permission. But "without permission" is vaguely defined and the law
seems more geared towards computer hacking.

"A broad statement concerning the access of unprotected wireless
networks as being always legal or illegal simply can't be made," said
Jackie Lesch, a spokeswoman for the Department of Justice. "It's just
kind of dicey."

On the state level it could be more clear. "It's unlawful access",
said John Geraty, an officer with the Internet crimes against children
unit of the San Francisco Police Department.

According to Geraty, using your neighbor's wireless is specifically
prohibited in the California penal code. "It's not yours and you're
taking it," he says. "







D - Does Ray want to be the guy people call at 10PM when they can't
get connected, for whatever reason?

Sure, there's an extra service charge for calls made after 5 PM! *LOL!

Yep, another non-issue according to you. Apparently the realities
of computer and network support are a foreign concept to you.




E - Who's going to put in the system, make sure coverage is OK for the
entire building, maintain it, etc?

My 5 year old nephew is available on weekends.

Yep, another non-issue according to you.




And in view of all that, whether it's worth saving $30 a month. *I
know the answer for me is no.

Well, everyone has to make their own decisions.


Yes, but they should make them in view of the real facts, not because
some nit-wit on the internet proclaims that there are no issues to
redistributing internet service to 6 apts.






2 - How much bandwith the service provides versus what loads all the
different users will be placing on it.

2A) My cable provider has 3 levels, 1.5 Mbps, 8 Mbps, and 20 Mbps. Many
people still use dial-up at 56 Kbps! How many times will 56K go into 1.5
M?

Sure, just as I'm sure there are many people still running Win98 on a
386. But it's not the typical scenario today. What is more typical
is to have users downloading r/t video, large video files, or other
heavy demands.

Your not downloading **** unless your using a binary news reader with
multiple connections.

LOL







Your sharing the bandwith of the cable anyways with all your neighbors
even
if they all had separate paying accounts, but with one modem your
bandwith
is limited to your provider level.

Yes, but so what? I have around 1.5mbits up, 4.5 down and the system
can handle that with the typical load of all the others on the entire
cable system. I periodically benchmark it. Even so, it can take
some time to download larger files. I would not want to split my
bandwith with 5 other users.

Larger files.... LOL.... give me some sizes? Even if you could find a
large file on the internet, you would still only be using one connection,
one connection can only use so much bandwith.

Really LOL now. * Even if you could find a large file on the internet?

You been watching too many

Cable company commercials where they keep trying to sell you faster and
faster speeds when you don't need them.

So, says you. * Every speed increase I've ever had in internet
connectivity has given me a speed boost that I both noticed and
used. * I'm at around 4.5mbits down now, and not about to share that
with 5 other households.

I have 3 PC's networked, 1 wired, 2 wireless and have seen no problems at
all when all are in use.


Cool. So, since there are 6 apts, lets multiply the above by 6 and
see what happens. And factor in some real usage like many PCs see
today, with rich content, r/t video, downloading movies, etc, as
opposed to you hunting and pecking on newgroups.