The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)

ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)


That's what I do. They sell cfl's based on light output but wattages
and heat output are much lower. I've been replacing 60 watt
incandescents with 75 watt cfl's in ceiling fixtures which call for 60
watt bulbs for several years with no problem.

In article , Frank wrote:
ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)


That's what I do. They sell cfl's based on light output but wattages
and heat output are much lower. I've been replacing 60 watt
incandescents with 75 watt cfl's in ceiling fixtures which call for 60
watt bulbs for several years with no problem.

I hope you mean "75 watt incandescent equivalent" - which is usually
18-20 watts.

- Don Klipstein )

ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)



No. You are not exceeding the limits of either current draw or heat
generally speaking. Now a CFL will produce some heat, but not nearly as
much as a comparable output incandescent.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:25:35 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)



No. You are not exceeding the limits of either current draw or heat
generally speaking. Now a CFL will produce some heat, but not nearly as
much as a comparable output incandescent.

nate

You don't say if these are recessed fixtures.

If they are be aware that CFL life when operated base up in recessed
fixtures can be shortened. Most of the cheap CFLs are designed to be
base down (or sideways) and in open fixtures. The higher you go in
wattage the greater the problem is likely to be. The issue is that
the electronics, which are in the base of the CFL, are affected by the
higher temperature when operated base up in enclosed fixtures. Even
though the overall temperature is much lower than when a regular bulb
is used, the electronics are more sensitive to it.

The Osram Dura One bulbs are specifically rated for base up use in
recessed fixtures but are quite pricey compared to bargain CFL's.

Paul F.

Paul Franklin wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:25:35 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

ropeyarn wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)


No. You are not exceeding the limits of either current draw or heat
generally speaking. Now a CFL will produce some heat, but not nearly as
much as a comparable output incandescent.

nate

You don't say if these are recessed fixtures.

If they are be aware that CFL life when operated base up in recessed
fixtures can be shortened. Most of the cheap CFLs are designed to be
base down (or sideways) and in open fixtures. The higher you go in
wattage the greater the problem is likely to be. The issue is that
the electronics, which are in the base of the CFL, are affected by the
higher temperature when operated base up in enclosed fixtures. Even
though the overall temperature is much lower than when a regular bulb
is used, the electronics are more sensitive to it.

The Osram Dura One bulbs are specifically rated for base up use in
recessed fixtures but are quite pricey compared to bargain CFL's.

Paul F.


Not recessed.......base horizontal...

"ropeyarn" wrote in message
...
Paul Franklin wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:25:35 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

ropeyarn wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going to
a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt" incandescent
output indicated on the package ?)


No. You are not exceeding the limits of either current draw or heat
generally speaking. Now a CFL will produce some heat, but not nearly as
much as a comparable output incandescent.

nate

You don't say if these are recessed fixtures.

If they are be aware that CFL life when operated base up in recessed
fixtures can be shortened. Most of the cheap CFLs are designed to be
base down (or sideways) and in open fixtures. The higher you go in
wattage the greater the problem is likely to be. The issue is that
the electronics, which are in the base of the CFL, are affected by the
higher temperature when operated base up in enclosed fixtures. Even
though the overall temperature is much lower than when a regular bulb
is used, the electronics are more sensitive to it. The Osram Dura One bulbs
are specifically rated for base up use in
recessed fixtures but are quite pricey compared to bargain CFL's.

Paul F.


Not recessed.......base horizontal...

Closed fixtures - those without good airflow around the bulb, can cause
overheating, and resulting shortened life.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?



If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

wrote:
The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

It *could...* if CFLs were made that drew over 60W. I haven't seen one
yet... heck, even a 48" T12 only draws 40W a tube.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the
maximum wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to
catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

It *could...* if CFLs were made that drew over 60W. I haven't seen one
yet... heck, even a 48" T12 only draws 40W a tube.

nate


Indeed...I figure as long as I compare apples to apples (watts to
watts), the issue if illumination values doesn't matter..

Thanks for the responses.

ropeyarn wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the
maximum wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture
to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

It *could...* if CFLs were made that drew over 60W. I haven't seen
one yet... heck, even a 48" T12 only draws 40W a tube.

nate


Indeed...I figure as long as I compare apples to apples (watts to
watts), the issue if illumination values doesn't matter..

Thanks for the responses.

I like to buy on a high ratio of lumens to watts. Even pre cfl, I
observed that some long life incandescents gave less light for the same
wattage.

ropeyarn wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the
maximum wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture
to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

It *could...* if CFLs were made that drew over 60W. I haven't seen
one yet... heck, even a 48" T12 only draws 40W a tube.

nate


Indeed...I figure as long as I compare apples to apples (watts to
watts), the issue if illumination values doesn't matter..

Thanks for the responses.

Well... I don't know whether a 15W CFL produces more or less heat than a
15W incandescent. I ASSume less, but I don't know how much less. That
said, the largest CFL I've seen is 23W and we're talking about 60W light
fixtures, so I don't know that it matters all that much.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article , ropeyarn wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the
maximum wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to
catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

It *could...* if CFLs were made that drew over 60W. I haven't seen one
yet... heck, even a 48" T12 only draws 40W a tube.

nate


Indeed...I figure as long as I compare apples to apples (watts to
watts), the issue if illumination values doesn't matter..

Thanks for the responses.

I would multiply CFL wattage by 1.5 (maybe as much as 1.75) for fixture
heating effect in comparison to incandescent, since incandescents produce
a lot of infrared. Most of that infrared becomes heat - in the room but
not in the fixture. CFLs produce little infrared, but mostly non-radiant
heat and visible light.

- Don Klipstein )

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:38:41 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

It *could...* if CFLs were made that drew over 60W. I haven't seen one
yet... heck, even a 48" T12 only draws 40W a tube.

nate

The discussion is about fixtures, and their heat rating, not
necessarily CFL's.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:59:38 -0500, wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

A bulb that draws 25W to produce the light of a 75W incadescent bulb
isn't going to overtax a fixture designed for 75W.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:23:56 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:59:38 -0500, wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

A bulb that draws 25W to produce the light of a 75W incadescent bulb
isn't going to overtax a fixture designed for 75W.

Correct you are, but what happens to a fixture that is rated for
a 100 watt incandescent bulb when you use it for something other
than lighting? Are you saying that as long as you don't develop
100 watts of heat then the fixture will be just fine?

wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:23:56 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:59:38 -0500, wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.
I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?
Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.
A bulb that draws 25W to produce the light of a 75W incadescent bulb
isn't going to overtax a fixture designed for 75W.

Correct you are, but what happens to a fixture that is rated for
a 100 watt incandescent bulb when you use it for something other
than lighting? Are you saying that as long as you don't develop
100 watts of heat then the fixture will be just fine?

Yes, so long as you aren't actually drawing more than 100W.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:37:16 -0500, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:23:56 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:59:38 -0500, wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?

Although heat may and probably is the issue, over wattage through
current draw certainly could become a problem.

A bulb that draws 25W to produce the light of a 75W incadescent bulb
isn't going to overtax a fixture designed for 75W.

Correct you are, but what happens to a fixture that is rated for
a 100 watt incandescent bulb when you use it for something other
than lighting? Are you saying that as long as you don't develop
100 watts of heat then the fixture will be just fine?

As long as you don't exceed the current and heat ratings, you'll
be fine.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?


OK:
and your helpful contribution to the discussion is ????

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:17:18 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?


OK:
and your helpful contribution to the discussion is ????

That a 30W bulb puts out the light of a 75 bulb doesn't matter.
It's a 30W bulb. If it put out the light of a 7500W bulb, it still
wouldn't harm the fixture.

I'm sorry you find this so hard to follow.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:37:58 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:17:18 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?


OK:
and your helpful contribution to the discussion is ????

That a 30W bulb puts out the light of a 75 bulb doesn't matter.
It's a 30W bulb. If it put out the light of a 7500W bulb, it still
wouldn't harm the fixture.

I'm sorry you find this so hard to follow.

A 7500 watt CFL, if there was such a thing would draw over 13 amps.
So you feel a light fixture rated for a 100 watt incandescent will be
just fine?

wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:37:58 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:


On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:17:18 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:

AZ Nomad wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:



The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?


OK:
and your helpful contribution to the discussion is ????

That a 30W bulb puts out the light of a 75 bulb doesn't matter.
It's a 30W bulb. If it put out the light of a 7500W bulb, it still
wouldn't harm the fixture.

I'm sorry you find this so hard to follow.


A 7500 watt CFL, if there was such a thing would draw over 13 amps.
So you feel a light fixture rated for a 100 watt incandescent will be
just fine?

I don't think he said anything like that. Your hypothetical 7500 watt
equivalent CFL would draw more than 100 watts, so fall outside the
design parameters.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:52:49 -0500, wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:37:58 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:17:18 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:


The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...
of course it is. Do you think the actual light causes the fixture to catch
fire?


OK:
and your helpful contribution to the discussion is ????

That a 30W bulb puts out the light of a 75 bulb doesn't matter.
It's a 30W bulb. If it put out the light of a 7500W bulb, it still
wouldn't harm the fixture.

I'm sorry you find this so hard to follow.

A 7500 watt CFL, if there was such a thing would draw over 13 amps.
So you feel a light fixture rated for a 100 watt incandescent will be
just fine?

If it somehow drew 100W (less than an amp), you'd be fine.

What part in "put out the light of a x bulb" don't you understand?
I didn't say "consumed the current of a x CFL.

In article , ropeyarn wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)

I have one data point of experimentation indicating that a 42 watt CFL
produces slightly more non-radiant heat than a 60 watt incandescent.
Therefore, it appears to me that CFLs of wattage much lower than 42 watts
will not overheat fixtures rated for 60 watt incandescents. This means
that CFLs of wattage up to low 30's should be OK, and those tend to
outshine 100 watt incandescents.

Meanwhile, CFLs can overheat in some fixtures. My experience is that
ones over 23 watts have a significant rate of overheating in downlights.
23 watt CFLs tend to be "lowish 100 watt" incandescent equivalence,
usually outshining 75 watt incandescents.

You may ask - how could a CFL be more efficient than an incandescent at
producing both light and non-radiant heat? The answer is that the CFL
produces much less infrared than an incandescent does, especially much
less in the 700-2500 nm range.

- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:25:15 -0500, ropeyarn wrote:

The ceiling fixtures in our house all have labels indicating the maximum
wattage (incandescent) bulb to place in the fixture.

I assume this is a heat-based limit...

If I'm replacing the incandescents in one of these fixutures with
CFL's...which stay cool to the touch....are there any issues with going
to a higher light output in (say a CFL packaged with "75 watt"
incandescent output indicated on the package ?)

You can install UP TO the wattage stated on the fixture. If the
fixture is rated at 60W (incandescent), you can use up to 60W (actual
wattage used - CFL).

Make that mid or upper 30's or so. I did once measure temperatures on a
fixture (with a non-contact thermometer) and got the fixture slightly
hotter with a 42 watt (150 watt incandescent equivalent) CFL than with a
60 watt incandescent.
Incandescents produce a lot of infrared - much to most of which escapes
the fixture and becomes heat where it is absorbed - usually mostly all
over the room it is in. CFLs produce conducted/convected heat more than
anything else, and after that visible light.

Any CFL which actually uses 60W, will actually be rated at several
hundred watts of light output.

If rated honestly, about 200-250.

If you put in a 150W equivalant CFL, it would only use about 30 watts,

Make that 42 watts. A 42 watt CFL typically produces 2600 lumens. A
150 watt 120V 750-hour incandescent of "Big 3" brand and with CC-8 style
filament (axial coiled-coil) typically produces 2980 lumens, maybe more
like 2900 even for "soft white".

which is only half what the fixture can handle. Of course the high
wattage CFLs get large and may not fit in the fixture dome.

As I said above, when I compared fixture heating by a 42 watt CFL and by
a 60 watt incandescent, the fixture got slightly hotter with the 42 watt
CFL.

Next lower common wattage I have seen is 30 watts, and I see those at
Lowes. Home Depot may have 30 waters also. My experience is that those
outshine 100 watt incandescents rated 1750 lumens by a small amount when
young and at favorable temperature. I suspect they fade to close to
1670-1750 lumens after 2 or 3 thousand operating hours. I suspect they
easily overheat in downlights and small enclosed fixtures.

Next lower common wattage of CFLs after that is 26 watts - usually rated
to produce 1750 lumens - when in a favorable range of temperature and
young. They typically produce something like 10% less after aging 2 or 3
thousand hours. 100 watt 120V incandescents of "Big 3" brand and CC-8
style filament are typically rated to produce 1670-1750 lumens.

Next lower common wattage of CFLs is 23 watts - usually rated to produce
1600 lumens. That is when in a favorable temperature range and in first
few hundred hours of operation. I would say more like mid-1400's after
aging 2-3 thousand hours and in a favorable temperature range - I would
call that "roughly halfway from 75 watt equivalent to 100 watt equivalent".
23 watts is the highest wattage of CFLs that appears to me to have
"fairly good" survival in downlights and enclosed fixtures. Philips
"triple arch" "Marathon"/"SLS" 23 watt non-dimmable is the highest wattage
and brightest CFL that I am aware of that is actually rated to take the
heat of recessed ceiling fixtures. The dimmable 23 watt and the 25 watt
versions of this one are not rated for this as of last time I checked.

- Don Klipstein )