The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.

Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 21:47:47 -0700, Donna Ohl wrote:
Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?

I have a whole bunch of questions I hope you can help me answer.

Q1: What caused the whoosh sound when the GE oven fire first started?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845898/

Q2: How does a broken oven heating element cause a fire anyway?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845892/

Q3: Why is the GE oven heating element all blistered in the fire spot?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845900/

Q4: Why didn't the fire go out when I turned off the oven switch?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/

Q5: Should I replace the heating element or replace the oven?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845896/

Q6: Where can I find a replacement upper bake heating element?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
"broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil element
will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake" temperature you have
set more quickly, at which time the broil element will shut off.

On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:10:56p, PanHandler told us...


I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
"broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil
element will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake"
temperature you have set more quickly, at which time the broil element
will shut off.

Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
setting, not just to preheat.

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)

*******************************************
Date: Tuesday, 10(X)/07(VII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
4wks 6dys 1hrs 44mins
*******************************************
My watch stopped. I think I'm down a
quartz. --George Carlin

"Wayne Boatwright" wrote in message
5.250...
On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:10:56p, PanHandler told us...


I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
"broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil
element will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake"
temperature you have set more quickly, at which time the broil element
will shut off.

Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
setting, not just to preheat.

Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:38:04 -0500, PanHandler wrote:

Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
setting, not just to preheat.

Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.

I thought it was bake but I can easily be wrong. It's certainly the upper
heating element though, as can be seen by this picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

Do you know WHERE to buy the upper element for the GE JBP24B0B4WH?

The General Electric http://www.geappliances.com/ web page doesn't even
list my six-year-old oven model

Here is where I looked for GE oven element parts:
http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/

Do you know where I can find the part number for the GE JBP24B0B4WH oven
heater upper element?

On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:38:04p, PanHandler told us...


"Wayne Boatwright" wrote in message
5.250...
On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:10:56p, PanHandler told us...


I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
"broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil
element will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake"
temperature you have set more quickly, at which time the broil element
will shut off.

Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the
"bake"
setting, not just to preheat.

Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.

It depends on brand and model. I had a Whirlpool a few years ago that did
this. I thought it was a problem with the range, until I read further into
the owner's manual. :-)

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)

*******************************************
Date: Wednesday, 10(X)/08(VIII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
4wks 5dys 19hrs 1mins
*******************************************
I don't want constructive criticism.
It's all I can do to handle

On Oct 8, 3:38*am, "PanHandler" wrote:
"Wayne Boatwright" wrote in message

5.250...

On Tue 07 Oct 2008 10:10:56p, PanHandler told us...

I'll let others get into your questions, but the upper element is the
"broil" element. On some ovens with a "preheat" feature the broil
element will also come on to help bring the oven to the "bake"
temperature you have set more quickly, at which time the broil element
will shut off.

Some ovens, including GE IIRC, cycle the broil element while on the "bake"
setting, not just to preheat.

Wasn't aware of that. My 6 month old Frigidaire doesn't.

Comments said "SOME" ovens (use the broiler element to bring the
initial baking function of an oven up to temperature more quickly).
Over some 48 years, two homes and various makes of cooking stoves,
we've had both types.

Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm


s


"Donna Ohl" wrote in message
...
The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.

Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:

Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm

I was hoping I could replace the element!

I'm not sure if it's a bake element or a broil element but it's the top
element as shown in this picture ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl ).

Do you have any idea what caused the fire?

I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door and
shut off the electricity to the house.

What caused the fire?

On Oct 8, 1:50*am, Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Just replace the element. *I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? *Hmmmmmmmmm

I was hoping I could replace the element!

The element is replaceable and available online. Google appliance
parts. However, whether that's the only problem and the only thing
that needs to be repaired depends on what else may have been damaged
as a result of what happened.



I'm not sure if it's a bake element or a broil element but it's the top
element as shown in this picture (http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl).

It's the upper element, which is commonly referred to as the broil
element. However, some ovens may use it to pre-heat or cycle it
during bake, etc. too.



Do you have any idea what caused the fire?

What exactly was burning in the fire? If the element failed, I could
see it getting very hot, arcing, maybe some small flames around the
element itself. But beyond that, for there to be any substantial
fire, you need a fuel source.



I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door and
shut off the electricity to the house.

It shouldn't have taken the fire dept to figure out to close the oven
door and cut off the electricity. Were you planning on toasting
marshmallows? And again, the question here is exactly what do you
mean by fire and what was burning?



What caused the fire?

My guess would be a failed heating element.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 04:35:32 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The element is replaceable and available online. Google appliance
parts.

I couldn't find the oven upper element part number at the GE site (
http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/ ).

Maybe they don't make them anymore because I couldn't even find the model
of the oven (JBP24B0B4WH) at that GE applicance parts web site.

Do you think they don't make parts for this GE jbp24bob4wh oven anymore?

Donna Ohl wrote:

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 04:35:32 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



The element is replaceable and available online. Google appliance
parts.



I couldn't find the oven upper element part number at the GE site (
http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/ ).

Maybe they don't make them anymore because I couldn't even find the model
of the oven (JBP24B0B4WH) at that GE applicance parts web site.

Do you think they don't make parts for this GE jbp24bob4wh oven anymore?


The "wh" at the end probably refers to color (white?). I did a search
on just "jbp24" and got lots of
hits for "Quick Clean" model........did you try a google search on the
part number?

I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door
and
shut off the electricity to the house.

That is a darn good question. Turning the switch to off should have killed
the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house. It did
for me when my broiler element started arcing a few months ago.

You probably only thought you had the switch off... But if you are certain
you did, then you have a bigger problem than a failed element, and it might
be prudent to replace it.

Just in general, it would be a good idea to have a fire extinquisher in the
house. We have 4. Never used them.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:

Turning the switch to off should have killed
the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house.

Hi Jack,
That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
has a half-inch gap in it.

I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?

And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?
Donna

Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:

Turning the switch to off should have killed
the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house.

Hi Jack,
That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
has a half-inch gap in it.

I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?

And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?
Donna

Hi,
If you understand how welding rod works. Heating element by nautre some
times has weakest spot where usually failure occurs like you just
experienced. Weak spot having uneven resistance it can over heat and
start melting the element. It thins the spot and over time it will start
breaking up causing arcing on and off. Finally it will go open. Again if
it was grease fire ignited by the hot element... Grease does not need
electric power to burn. It'll just burn off.

I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?


Mine was arcing to the oven; the oven is grounded, so you have a circuit.
Mine failed at the support that holds it up, so it just went to the support.
You are right; it can't arc over a half inch gap.

You don't get electrocuted (mainly because you don't touch it when it is on)
because the oven wiring is a much better ground than you, so essentially all
the current goes down the wiring and none down you.

And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.

Why would it? The fuse will only blow if it the current exceeds the rating,
and there is no reason it should have. An arc fault breaker would have
popped, but you don't put those on your stove.
Does anyone know the answer to these questions?

These questions are easy; the one I can't answer is why it didn't stop when
you turned it off.

The fire extinquisher was ineffective because nothing was going to stop it
until you cut the power.

On Oct 8, 10:57*am, Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:
Turning the switch to off should have killed
the power just as effectively as shutting off power to the house. *

Hi Jack,
That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
has a half-inch gap in it.

Which could have occured at the end and then the current did stop
flowing.



I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?

Presumably, you don't touch it when it's on and hot to begin with.
But the actual resistive part is inside the element, so you can't
touch it.



And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall..

Probably because the current flow never exceed 40, 50 amps or whatever
the breaker is rated at. 10 or 12KW in a small area is a lot of
energy, but it doesn't exceed the breaker.




Does anyone know the answer to these questions?
Donna

Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:
That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
has a half-inch gap in it.

I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?

Um, an arc is electricity jumping a GAP... and it doesn't electrocute
you because you are not putting yourself in the circuit by simply
touching the element. If you grabbed both sides of the gap, THEN you'd
get electrocuted.

And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.

Because it wasn't drawing enough current to blow the fuse.

The plug has nothing to do with anything.

Do you really need to spaz out like this every time you have a
problem? "What is it? WHAT WHAT WHAT!?!?! Can I fix it? CAN I? CAN I?
CAN I?" Jeez. Calm down.

Replace the damn oven, too. If just turning off the oven didn't stop
it from burning, there is something else wrong. Fix the element, and
you're going to end up with the fire department in your house again,
and they'll probably arrest you this time for arson.

Donna Ohl writes:

Hi Jack,
That's the wierd thing. Not only did turning the switch off not stop the
burning but you can see from these pictures that the oven element actually
has a half-inch gap in it.

I don't understand how this element works. If it's just a "resistor", then
why don't we get electrocuted when we touch it and how can it arc with a
half inch gap opening the 220v circuit?

The element is normally fed from 240 V. The heat is generated in an
inner resistance component which is completely insulated (electrically)
from the element's outer metal jacket, which is grounded by touching
other metal parts of the oven (and possibly by an explicit ground wire).

In normal operation, the jacket of the element is always grounded, so
there's no voltage on it. *But* if the element breaks or the insulation
between the core and jacket fails, you can get current flow between the
centre core and the jacket - there is 120 V from *each* side of a broken
core and the jacket. You could get an arc from the core to the jacket
even with a gap in the element - the 240 V path through the element is
broken, but there's still 120V at high current available.

The switch *should* disconnect power from both sides of the element and
stop any arc when set to off. But if one side of the switch is shorted
closed, it would still work normally while the element is intact (the
other side would still switch the element on and off). So you may have
a problem in the switch.

And, why didn't a fuse blow? I know it's a three pronged grandfather plug
because that is what the firemen said when they yanked it out of the wall.

An arc is not a dead short, and the current is limited both by the
voltage drop across the arc and any remaining element resistance still
in series. So there may not have been enough current to blow a fuse.
Fuses protect wiring from overloads - they aren't designed to prevent
fires.

As for whether you should replace the oven: The powder from an ABC fire
extinguisher is corrosive, so you need to clean it up very thoroughly.
As long as it was confined to the interior of the oven, it may have been
possible to clean it up by sweeping and wiping. But the oven is
definitely *not* designed to have a garden hose sprayed into it! Unless
the interior was already really clean, spraying water into the oven
probably carried the corrosive powder into places you can no longer
reach to clean.

Dave

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:05:16 -0400, jack wrote:

Just in general, it would be a good idea to have a fire extinquisher in the
house. We have 4. Never used them.

Hi Jack,

I used up TWO of the household ABC fire extinguishers to no avail before
calling the fire department. This is a picture of the exact fire
extinguisher used (this picture is from a previous repair)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaoh...7603933515835/

I've concluded ABC fire extinguishers are useless on oven fires!

This is what the oven looked like afterward
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845896/

"Donna Ohl" wrote in message
/

I've concluded ABC fire extinguishers are useless on oven fires!

This is what the oven looked like afterward
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845896/


Depends on what is burning. In many cases, closing the door is enough to let
it burn out safely. Or the ABC can put our your roasted chicken.

Donna Ohl wrote:
....
I used up TWO of the household ABC fire extinguishers to no avail before
calling the fire department. ...

Since it wasn't a fire but an electrical arc, that's not surprising.

I like others am pretty much convinced that in the panic of the moment
you didn't turn off the oven so the arc just continued.

To amplify on the other questions, an arc is the passage of current
across an air gap by definition--until there's a gap, there's no arc.

It happens when the first break occurs the distance between the two ends
is so close air the insulating effect isn't sufficient to break the
connection and some air is ionized. Once that temperature is achieved,
the arc is self-sustaining as more air is ionized and those charged ions
are what carry the current across the gap. The gap can (and did)
continue to grow while some of the metal in the elements is melted.

In essence, one has made an AC-powered welder or arc lantern.

In general, remember that fire extinguishers are totally ineffective on
electrical fires as they are fueled by the electrical source not a
combustion source. So, don't try that again.

Also, while easy to say, don't panic and be sure it's actually the oven
control you're dealing with not the heat setting or something else and
the switch is actually off. Second, just go to the breaker panel and
throw the breaker for the range. You should know precisely where it is
and which one is the range; if not, that's your next exercise to go find
it and make sure it's well marked.

As for the replacement element, I'm sure there are elements available; I
have a nearly 30-yr old GE and elements are still available for it.
I've used these folks w/ satisfaction...

http://www.pcappliancerepair.com

Looking, I think you've a typo in the model number is a large part of
your problem -- I'm guessing it's actually JBP24BB4WH and the broil
element would be

http://www.pcappliancerepair.com/cgi...0009&brand=GEH

although you'll want to check for sure on the model, dimensions, etc.
This one does show the mid-mount clean cycle sensor at least.

Of course, you could simply go down to your local appliance dealer and
pick up one, too...

--

Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:

Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm

I was hoping I could replace the element!

I'm not sure if it's a bake element or a broil element but it's the top
element as shown in this picture ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl ).

Do you have any idea what caused the fire?

I'm confused because, if an element is just a resistor, opening it would
just cause it to stop heating. But even with the oven switch turned off,
the fire was still going until the fire department closed the oven door and
shut off the electricity to the house.

What caused the fire?
Hi,
Maybe inside oven was drity(greasy)? When is the last time you cleaned
it putting it to self clean mode? Something burning and you left the
oven door open and did not cut the power off? And fireman had to do it?
No fire extinguisher in the kitchen? I have one in the kitchen and
another one in the garage.

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:07:54 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

What caused the fire?
Maybe inside oven was drity(greasy)? When is the last time you cleaned
it putting it to self clean mode? Something burning and you left the
oven door open and did not cut the power off? And fireman had to do it?
No fire extinguisher in the kitchen? I have one in the kitchen and
another one in the garage.

Hi Tony,
There was nothing that could burn that was inside the oven. It was clean
(it looks dirty in this picture because of all the useless ABC fire
extinguisher powder).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/

Looking closely at the oven element itself, it's blistered in the spot that
was "burning" (perhaps it was arcing as people said but I don't understand
how an open circuit can arc and even if it did why didn't it blow the 220v
fuse?).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845892/

I had two fire extinguishers in the kitchen (notice the burned teapot on
the top of the stove ... I'm rather forgetful and burn a lot of things
down). The ABC fire extinguisher was useless on this electrical fire.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaoh...7603933515835/

I would NOT recommend an ABC fire extinguisher for an electrical fire for
anyone ever. It didn't do a thing. Neither did turning off the oven switch.
The only thing that stopped it was when the firemen turned off the power t
the house.

What I'm trying to find is someone who UNDERSTANDS HOW this could have
possibly happened? It just doesn't make sense that an open circuit (see the
break here http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/) could
possibly arc even after the switch is turned off?

And, why didn't the fuse blow (it's a three pronged grandfather plug
according to the firemen.)

Donna Ohl writes:

Looking closely at the oven element itself, it's blistered in the spot that
was "burning" (perhaps it was arcing as people said but I don't understand
how an open circuit can arc and even if it did why didn't it blow the 220v
fuse?).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845892/

See my other reply. An arc by definition occurs across a gap which
would be an open circuit if the arc was not there. And even when there
is a gap in the element, an energized element has 120 V between the
resistor core and the jacket (in North America).

I would NOT recommend an ABC fire extinguisher for an electrical fire for
anyone ever. It didn't do a thing. Neither did turning off the oven switch.
The only thing that stopped it was when the firemen turned off the power t
the house.

You do need to interrupt the current to the electrical fire first. If
turning the oven switch to off did not do this, turning off the oven
breaker in the house electrical panel would have.

What I'm trying to find is someone who UNDERSTANDS HOW this could have
possibly happened? It just doesn't make sense that an open circuit (see the
break here http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/) could
possibly arc even after the switch is turned off?

Sure it does. A switch, particularly if it's actually a thermostat,
needs to open only one side of the 240 V line to do its job in normal
operation. To stop an arc to ground, you need to open both sides of the
supply to the element. There should have been some switch that does
that, but maybe you didn't use it, or maybe it's defective. (Our oven
has a separate Off/Bake/Broil/Clean mode switch, which is not part of
the oven thermostat).

And, why didn't the fuse blow (it's a three pronged grandfather plug
according to the firemen.)

Because the wiring wasn't overloaded to the point of endangering the
wiring. You can have a pretty dramatic arc without drawing enough
current to blow a fuse. Why do you expect the fuse to blow?

Dave

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm


s


"Donna Ohl" wrote in message
...
The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.

Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/


Hi,
What is definition of arcing? Current jumping across a gap. When element
is cracked(in the process of breaking up) it can arc. Just take the bad
element out and go to HD or Lowe or appliance parts store and get a
matching replacement. No brainer replacing burned out element. Just make
sure connection is good and tight.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car
when a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm


s


"Donna Ohl" wrote in message
...
The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven
went
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.

Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven
element.
Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/


Hi,
What is definition of arcing? Current jumping across a gap. When element
is cracked(in the process of breaking up) it can arc. Just take the bad
element out and go to HD or Lowe or appliance parts store and get a
matching replacement. No brainer replacing burned out element. Just make
sure connection is good and tight.

It may not be THAT easy. My wires only pulled out about and inch and
bolting the new element on was very difficult.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:

Just replace the element. I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? Hmmmmmmmmm

Hi Steve,

I can't find the part number for the GE jbp24b0b4wh oven upper heating
element replacement.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/

Do you know of a good web site (GE doesn't have them even at their parts
web site http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/

Donna

On Oct 8, 11:05*am, Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:13:06 -0500, Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Just replace the element. *I wonder if those firemen replace their car when
a headlamp burns out? *Hmmmmmmmmm

Hi Steve,

I can't find the part number for the GE jbp24b0b4wh oven upper heating
element replacement.http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845890/

Do you know of a good web site (GE doesn't have them even at their parts
web sitehttp://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/parts/

Donna

Just google for appliance parts. There are plenty of them online and
they should have the element, as it's a common part. However, as
others have cautioned, based on everything you've said I would NOT
just replace the element, without checking all the wiring, switches,
etc in the oven to make sure it's safe.

On Oct 7, 11:47*pm, Donna Ohl wrote:
The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.

Pictures athttp://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element..
Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

What caught fire its all metal. Google to see if those have a record
of catching fire. Replacing the element wont make it safe that is not
the cause, or what burned, you have to take it apart to find the
cause. For most it would not be worth the trouble. With a fire there
is likely hidden wiring that is fried.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:30:31 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote:

What caught fire its all metal. Google to see if those have a record
of catching fire. Replacing the element wont make it safe that is not
the cause, or what burned, you have to take it apart to find the
cause. For most it would not be worth the trouble. With a fire there
is likely hidden wiring that is fried.

Hi Ransley,

What irks me is I don't understand how this COULD have happened!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
220v on one end pushing electrons through it.

Given it's such a simple circuit, I just can't comprehend how this fire can
happen. For example, there is a half-inch gap in the element as shown he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

My question, in general, is ...

Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?

How can all this possibly happen to a simple 220v resistor circuit?
It doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm asking here for answers!

Does anyone know the theoretical answer to this question?
Donna

"Donna Ohl" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:30:31 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote:

What caught fire its all metal. Google to see if those have a record
of catching fire. Replacing the element wont make it safe that is not
the cause, or what burned, you have to take it apart to find the
cause. For most it would not be worth the trouble. With a fire there
is likely hidden wiring that is fried.

Hi Ransley,

What irks me is I don't understand how this COULD have happened!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
220v on one end pushing electrons through it.

Given it's such a simple circuit, I just can't comprehend how this fire
can
happen. For example, there is a half-inch gap in the element as shown
he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

My question, in general, is ...

Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?

How can all this possibly happen to a simple 220v resistor circuit?
It doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm asking here for answers!

Does anyone know the theoretical answer to this question?
Donna

If your in the US, your house is most likely fed 240 volts from a
transformer that is center tapped (neutral) and there is 120 volts from the
neutral to each hot and 240 volts from hot to hot. The neutral is tied to
ground in the breaker box. When the element fails, sometimes it burns
through the insulation to the outer casing which is grounded. Apparantly the
oven contol just removes one hot leg from the circuit while the other is
still connected. normally this opens the circuit and the oven is off, but if
there is a short to ground, like with the bad element, it can continue to
arc since one leg is still connected to hot and there is a short to ground.
I've seen this before when the oven control is set to off and it keeps
arcing when the element burned out.

Donna Ohl wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 03:30:31 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote:

What caught fire its all metal. Google to see if those have a record
of catching fire. Replacing the element wont make it safe that is not
the cause, or what burned, you have to take it apart to find the
cause. For most it would not be worth the trouble. With a fire there
is likely hidden wiring that is fried.

Hi Ransley,

What irks me is I don't understand how this COULD have happened!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
220v on one end pushing electrons through it.

Given it's such a simple circuit, I just can't comprehend how this fire can
happen. For example, there is a half-inch gap in the element as shown he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

My question, in general, is ...

Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?

How can all this possibly happen to a simple 220v resistor circuit?
It doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm asking here for answers!

Does anyone know the theoretical answer to this question?
Donna
Ahem,
By Mr. Murphy's law. Respect him. Arcing can occur thru carbon trace.
How old is the thing anyway? I have all GE appliance in the house.
Only trouble I had was a thermostat going bad in ~10 years time.
Wonder you had a power surge??? You have to know what the element is
made of. There maybe some mineral component which can spark like fire
works.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 08:12:56 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

What irks me is I don't understand how this COULD have happened!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
220v on one end pushing electrons through it.

Given it's such a simple circuit, I just can't comprehend how this fire can
happen. For example, there is a half-inch gap in the element as shown he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

My question, in general, is ...

Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?

The short didn't draw enough current to throw the breaker; the breaker
has to be able to handle the oven with all the burners on. Your
switch didn't turn off because there was so much current being drawn
that the contacts stuck (or maybe welded) together. I'd get the oven
checked before I turned the power to it back on.

On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:36:55 -0500, Chris Hill wrote:

Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?

The short didn't draw enough current to throw the breaker;

Hi Chris,
Thank you for explaining that because it makes sense and all I'm trying to
do is make sense of this simple GE Spectra oven fire.

I tried to clean up the ABC fire extinguisher powder as shown he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279137/

But it was such a mess that I asked a neighbor to help me move the oven
outside where I doused it for 20 minutes with a garden hose as shown he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2926279133/

I'm learning all the time because, only afterward, his wife warned me I
shouldn't have soaked the oven because, she said, the water will remove the
insulation on the 220volt wires.

Should I take any extra precautions now that the oven was basically under
water other than letting it dry out in the sun?

Donna Ohl writes:

I mean, it should be pretty simple, right? It's just a big resistor with
220v on one end pushing electrons through it.

No, it's not. It is a big resistor surrounded by a metal jacket. The
resistor is supposed to be insulated from the jacket by a
high-temperature mineral insulation. In operation, the resistor is
connected to 240 VAC, while the jacket is connected to ground. In North
America, ground is also connected to the supply transformer centre tap,
so there is *also* 120 V from the ends of the element to the element's
metal jacket.

Q: How can an open resistor arc to the oven metal and how can it arc even
when the switch is turned off and why didn't it blow a fuse if it really
was shorting and what possibly could have been burning when there is
nothing flammable?

You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about things you think you
understand. If the element is physically open with a large gap, the
normal current path through the resistor is no longer available. But
both sides of the remaining element are still "hot" with respect to
ground, and you can get an arc from element interior to its jacket.
Electrical arcs do not require anything flammable to "burn"; the
electricity provides the energy. Arcs have resistance and limit the
current, so there may not be enough current to blow a fuse (plus there's
probably part of the element still in the circuit). Finally, the switch
should have opened both sides of the 240 V circuit, but maybe it did
not.

How can all this possibly happen to a simple 220v resistor circuit?
It doesn't make any sense. That's why I'm asking here for answers!

It makes perfect sense when you consider the actual situation with the
grounded jacket around the element.

Dave

"Donna Ohl" wrote in message
...
The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH oven went
on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the fire
department put it out.

Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven element.
Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/



I would contact GE regarding this. There may be a history of problems with
this oven or a recall. Look in your yellow pages or online for appliance
parts. The oven is not that old so I would think that parts are still
available. Have you contacted your homeowners insurance company? The oven
may be covered.

Without taking the oven apart it is difficult to assess what other parts may
have been damaged from the fire. It is possible that the wiring for the
stove top burners got damaged. I vote for a new stove and a different model
as well.

Donna Ohl wrote:
The top element of my 6-year-old General Electric GE JBP24B0B4WH
oven
went on electrical fire and the top bake element broke open when the
fire department put it out.

Pictures at http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl

I need advice since this is the first time my oven went on fire all
by
itself.

The fire department said replace the oven.

Coworkers told me I can just replace the burned out top bake oven
element. Whose advice should I follow?

Can I just replace the bake element (or is the oven really kaput)?
Can anyone tell me what actually caused the fire (it wasn't food)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/donnaohl/2923845906/

If the oven caused a fire severe enough to justify calling the fire
department then replace the oven, it's not safe. And have someone who
knows what he's doing do the replacement to make sure that the
replacement is installed properly and doesn't start another fire.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

If the oven caused a fire severe enough to justify calling the fire
department then replace the oven, it's not safe. And have someone who
knows what he's doing do the replacement to make sure that the
replacement is installed properly and doesn't start another fire.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

What would make it unsafe and un-repairable? Electric ranges are really
rather simple devices with few parts in the circuit.