I have to replace a leaky 1/2 inch cold water valve in my basement (I know
how to sweat the pipe/valve), and was told that I have to drain down the
water in my house before doing it (I have a furnace & hot water heater in
the basement).

What is the best way/procedure for draining down the water? Is there a guide
on how to do this? I know bits and pieces on what to do, but would rather
get the full procedure. Thanks!

DC,

The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's not a
problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because water can make
soldering impossible.
Turn off the water at the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of the water will drain out. Plan for
some water to spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

"David L. Martel" wrote in message
m...
DC,

The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's not a
problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because water can make
soldering impossible.
Turn off the water at the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of the water will drain out. Plan
for some water to spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Sometimes it helps to add a wet/dry vacuum to the lowest point to get some
pockets of water that always seem to trickle down once you get the pipe hot,
only to cool it back down. I duct tape a piece of vinyl tube to the vacuum
hose crevice nozzle and then jamb fit and/or duct tape it to the pipe or
valve outlet. The clear vinyl tube allows one to see if water is still being
pulled from the pipe. Keep the high level valve open to let the air in.

EXT wrote:


"David L. Martel" wrote in message
m...
DC,

The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's not a
problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because water can
make soldering impossible. Turn off the water at the main valve and
open a low faucet (outside bib faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most
of the water will drain out. Plan for some water to spill out when
you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Sometimes it helps to add a wet/dry vacuum to the lowest point to get
some pockets of water that always seem to trickle down once you get the
pipe hot, only to cool it back down. I duct tape a piece of vinyl tube
to the vacuum hose crevice nozzle and then jamb fit and/or duct tape it
to the pipe or valve outlet. The clear vinyl tube allows one to see if
water is still being pulled from the pipe. Keep the high level valve
open to let the air in.

Then there's the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe before you
start sweating. The bread seals the pipe long enough to finish the
sweating, then dissolves and gets flushed out.

I've never done this myself, so it's up to you to decide whether you'll
screw up some valve down the line. Just to be safe, cut off the crusts. :-)

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

DCWhitty wrote:
I have to replace a leaky 1/2 inch cold water valve in my basement (I know
how to sweat the pipe/valve), and was told that I have to drain down the
water in my house before doing it (I have a furnace & hot water heater in
the basement).

What is the best way/procedure for draining down the water? Is there a guide
on how to do this? I know bits and pieces on what to do, but would rather
get the full procedure. Thanks!

And, on a completely different tack from the guys who got the draining
down--

Where/what is leaking--the valve itself not holding or just a stem leak?
What kind of valve?

There's always the possibility of simply repairing it and avoid the
necessity of actually opening the piping itself entirely not to be
overlooked...

--

"SteveB" wrote in
:

EXT wrote:


"David L. Martel" wrote in message
m...
DC,

The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's
not a problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because
water can make soldering impossible. Turn off the water at the
main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib faucet, maybe) and a
high faucet. Most of the water will drain out. Plan for some water
to spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Sometimes it helps to add a wet/dry vacuum to the lowest point to get
some pockets of water that always seem to trickle down once you get
the pipe hot, only to cool it back down. I duct tape a piece of vinyl
tube to the vacuum hose crevice nozzle and then jamb fit and/or duct
tape it to the pipe or valve outlet. The clear vinyl tube allows one
to see if water is still being pulled from the pipe. Keep the high
level valve open to let the air in.

Then there's the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe before
you start sweating. The bread seals the pipe long enough to finish the
sweating, then dissolves and gets flushed out.

I've never done this myself, so it's up to you to decide whether
you'll screw up some valve down the line. Just to be safe, cut off the
crusts. :-)


the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe

I've seen this mentioned. Would never try it. I can think of places that
ball of bread will do no good immediately like going to the washing
machine with screens in the hoses or to a frig that has an inline water
filter.

On 7/9/2008 8:41 PM Red Green spake thus:

"SteveB" wrote in
:

EXT wrote:

"David L. Martel" wrote in message
m...

The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's
not a problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because
water can make soldering impossible. Turn off the water at the
main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib faucet, maybe) and a
high faucet. Most of the water will drain out. Plan for some water
to spill out when you remove the old valve.

Sometimes it helps to add a wet/dry vacuum to the lowest point to get
some pockets of water that always seem to trickle down once you get
the pipe hot, only to cool it back down. I duct tape a piece of vinyl
tube to the vacuum hose crevice nozzle and then jamb fit and/or duct
tape it to the pipe or valve outlet. The clear vinyl tube allows one
to see if water is still being pulled from the pipe. Keep the high
level valve open to let the air in.

Then there's the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe before
you start sweating. The bread seals the pipe long enough to finish the
sweating, then dissolves and gets flushed out.

I've never done this myself, so it's up to you to decide whether
you'll screw up some valve down the line. Just to be safe, cut off the
crusts. :-)

the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe

I've seen this mentioned. Would never try it. I can think of places that
ball of bread will do no good immediately like going to the washing
machine with screens in the hoses or to a frig that has an inline water
filter.

I agree. Sounds like something that would have worked fine in, say, the
1920s and 1930s (but maybe not even then, if some screen or filter
somewhere could get clogged with bread particles).


--
"Wikipedia ... it reminds me ... of dogs barking idiotically through
endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it.
It drags itself out of the dark abyss of pish, and crawls insanely up
the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and
doodle. It is balder and dash."

- With apologies to H. L. Mencken

On Jul 9, 8:45*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 7/9/2008 8:41 PM Red Green spake thus:



"SteveB" wrote in
:

EXT wrote:

"David L. Martel" wrote in message
news:gKqdnXk5lqQEOOnVnZ2dnUVZ_gSdnZ2d@earthlink .com...

The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's
not a problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because
water can make *soldering impossible. *Turn off the water at the
main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib *faucet, maybe) and a
high faucet. Most of the water will drain out. Plan *for some water
to spill out when you remove the old valve.

Sometimes it helps to add a wet/dry vacuum to the lowest point to get
some pockets of water that always seem to trickle down once you get
the pipe hot, only to cool it back down. I duct tape a piece of vinyl
tube to the vacuum hose crevice nozzle and then jamb fit and/or duct
tape it to the pipe or valve outlet. The clear vinyl tube allows one
to see if water is still being pulled from the pipe. Keep the high
level valve open to let the air in.

Then there's the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe before
you start sweating. The bread seals the pipe long enough to finish the
sweating, then dissolves and gets flushed out.

I've never done this myself, so it's up to you to decide whether
you'll screw up some valve down the line. Just to be safe, cut off the
crusts. :-)

the trick of pushing a ball of bread into the pipe

I've seen this mentioned. Would never try it. I can think of places that
ball of bread will do no good immediately like going to the washing
machine with screens in the hoses or to a frig that has an inline water
filter.

I agree. Sounds like something that would have worked fine in, say, the
1920s and 1930s (but maybe not even then, if some screen or filter
somewhere could get clogged with bread particles).

--
"Wikipedia ... it reminds me ... of dogs barking idiotically through
endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it.
It drags itself out of the dark abyss of pish, and crawls insanely up
the topmost pinnacle of posh. It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and
doodle. It is balder and dash."

- With apologies to H. L. Mencken

The bread trick works, I used it more times than I can remember.

Yes it MIGHT cause problems with with clogging screens & filters IF
you don't plan an exit path for the bread.

In the many times I've used the trick, I've never suffered a clog
because I left an open escape path for the bread; an open hose bib or
faucet with the aerator removed. When the water is turned back on,
the bread plug travels to the open point & is blown out.

Or if you're really worried just remove all the aerators & flush the
lines to each sink (IMO overkill since the single blow out point seems
to work fine)

and yes, cut off the crusts & use a cheap white bread.... most
"granola head" wheat, etc bread is too coarse to form a good
seal.

btw back in the 1920's & 30's, galv steel was the piping material of
choice.......CWT didn't become widely used until the late 50's / 60's

cheers
Bob

DCWhitty wrote:

I have to replace a leaky 1/2 inch cold water valve in my basement (I know
how to sweat the pipe/valve), and was told that I have to drain down the
water in my house before doing it (I have a furnace & hot water heater in
the basement).

What is the best way/procedure for draining down the water? Is there a
guide on how to do this? I know bits and pieces on what to do, but would
rather get the full procedure. Thanks!

I would take this time to drain the hot water heater as well. YOu should do
that yearly anyway.

1. Turn off main water into house.
2. Put a hose on the heater and run it to a basement drain. Open the
heater drain valve.
3. Go upstairs and open some faucets hot and cold to let air into the
pipes.

4. Wait until heater drains completely.
5. Open your leaky valve and let it drain.


all this is assuing the hot water heater drain valve is the lowest in the
house. The simple way is to turn off the main water, open the leaky valve,
and open another set of valves which are higher than the leaky one. It
should drain enough for you to solder it.

On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:
DC,

* *The water will remain in the boiler and hot water heater. That's not a
problem. You need to drain the water from the pipes because water can make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off the water at the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of the water will drain out. Plan for
some water to spill out when you remove the old valve.

The OP mentioned the leaky valve is in the basement so an outside hose
bib would be too high to be the low vent. He probably has a laundry/
slop sink down there, and that's the faucet that should be opened up.

I usually open all faucets that are on that branch to speed draining
and so there are no surprises during sweating.

R

On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:
DC,

* *Thewaterwill remain in the boiler and ho****erheater. That's not a
problem. You need todrainthewaterfrom the pipes becausewatercan make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off thewaterat the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of thewaterwilldrainout. Plan for
somewaterto spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Dave,

I like what you're saying. I was concerned that I had to drain the hot
water heater and furnace. At the very least, I guess that I have to
shut off the valve on the hot water heater in addition to the water
main, then drain out the upper water faucets and open up the lower
faucets as well.

To dpb: the valve is a cold water valve for an outside faucet in the
backyard. Given the way the pipes run across the basement, the valve
has to be replaced (Leaks pretty heavily. I wouldn't want to try to
fix it - not worth it. I already have a new ball valve to put in its
place). The water has to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:23:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

The water has to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

A few weeks ago I watched a plumber repair some pipes. He had
difficulty, because of the water remaining and was not able to sweat
the pipes.

His solution:

Using a cordless drill, he drilled a small hole in the bottom of the
pipe, next to the valve. Water drained, and repairs made.

That was the first time I've seen such a trick.

Oren wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:23:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


The water has to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.


A few weeks ago I watched a plumber repair some pipes. He had
difficulty, because of the water remaining and was not able to sweat
the pipes.

His solution:

Using a cordless drill, he drilled a small hole in the bottom of the
pipe, next to the valve. Water drained, and repairs made.

That was the first time I've seen such a trick.

And how did he plug the hole that he drilled?

M Q wrote:
Oren wrote:
....
Using a cordless drill, he drilled a small hole in the bottom of the
pipe, next to the valve. Water drained, and repairs made.

That was the first time I've seen such a trick.

Any port in a storm...

And how did he plug the hole that he drilled?

Soldered it back shut, I would presume...

--

On Jul 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:

DC,

* *Thewaterwill remain in the boiler and ho****erheater. That's not a
problem. You need todrainthewaterfrom the pipes becausewatercan make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off thewaterat the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of thewaterwilldrainout. Plan for
somewaterto spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Dave,

I like what you're saying. I was concerned that I had to drain the hot
water heater and furnace. At the very least, I guess that I have to
shut off the valve on the hot water heater in addition to the water
main, then drain out the upper water faucets and open up the lower
faucets as well.

To dpb: the valve is a cold water valve for an outside faucet in the
backyard. Given the way the pipes run across the basement, the valve
has to be replaced (Leaks pretty heavily. I wouldn't want to try to
fix it - not worth it. I already have a new ball valve to put in its
place). The water has to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

You could one of these valves and not have to use solder at all.
http://www.cashacme.com/prod_sharkbite_ball_valve.php
or you could use two of their push-fit to threaded fittings and use a
threaded valve body and not need to solder.

R

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:19:46 -0500, dpb wrote:

M Q wrote:
Oren wrote:
...
Using a cordless drill, he drilled a small hole in the bottom of the
pipe, next to the valve. Water drained, and repairs made.

That was the first time I've seen such a trick.

Any port in a storm...

And how did he plug the hole that he drilled?

Soldered it back shut, I would presume...

Solder, of course )

On Jul 10, 3:29*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:





On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:

DC,

* *Thewaterwill remain in the boiler and ho****erheater. That's not a
problem. You need todrainthewaterfrom the pipes becausewatercan make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off thewaterat the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of thewaterwilldrainout. Plan for
somewaterto spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Dave,

I like what you're saying. I was concerned that I had todrainthe hot
waterheater and furnace. At the very least, I guess that I have to
shut off the valve on the ho****erheater in addition to thewater
main, thendrainout the upperwaterfaucets and open up the lower
faucets as well.

To dpb: the valve is a coldwatervalve for an outside faucet in the
backyard. Given the way the pipes run across the basement, the valve
has to be replaced (Leaks pretty heavily. I wouldn't want to try to
fix it - not worth it. I already have a new ball valve to put in its
place). Thewaterhas to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

You could one of these valves and not have to use solder at all.http://www.cashacme.com/prod_sharkbite_ball_valve.php
or you could use two of their push-fit to threaded fittings and use a
threaded valve body and not need to solder.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jul 10, 3:29*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:





On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:

DC,

* *Thewaterwill remain in the boiler and ho****erheater. That's not a
problem. You need todrainthewaterfrom the pipes becausewatercan make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off thewaterat the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of thewaterwilldrainout. Plan for
somewaterto spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Dave,

I like what you're saying. I was concerned that I had todrainthe hot
waterheater and furnace. At the very least, I guess that I have to
shut off the valve on the ho****erheater in addition to thewater
main, thendrainout the upperwaterfaucets and open up the lower
faucets as well.

To dpb: the valve is a coldwatervalve for an outside faucet in the
backyard. Given the way the pipes run across the basement, the valve
has to be replaced (Leaks pretty heavily. I wouldn't want to try to
fix it - not worth it. I already have a new ball valve to put in its
place). Thewaterhas to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

You could one of these valves and not have to use solder at all.http://www.cashacme.com/prod_sharkbite_ball_valve.php
or you could use two of their push-fit to threaded fittings and use a
threaded valve body and not need to solder.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, the sharkbite ball valve looks inviting. But I really don't know
how well it works, and I am not afraid to do the soldering (at least
for this project, since it is a small section of pipe that I have to
work on). Besides, my understanding is that I probably should plan to
replace the elbows for the new section of pipe that will have the new
valve (unless my understanding on this point is wrong).

On Jul 11, 8:55*pm, wrote:
On Jul 10, 3:29*pm, RicodJour wrote:



On Jul 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:

On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:

DC,

* *Thewaterwill remain in the boiler and ho****erheater. That's not a
problem. You need todrainthewaterfrom the pipes becausewatercan make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off thewaterat the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of thewaterwilldrainout. Plan for
somewaterto spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Dave,

I like what you're saying. I was concerned that I had todrainthe hot
waterheater and furnace. At the very least, I guess that I have to
shut off the valve on the ho****erheater in addition to thewater
main, thendrainout the upperwaterfaucets and open up the lower
faucets as well.

To dpb: the valve is a coldwatervalve for an outside faucet in the
backyard. Given the way the pipes run across the basement, the valve
has to be replaced (Leaks pretty heavily. I wouldn't want to try to
fix it - not worth it. I already have a new ball valve to put in its
place). Thewaterhas to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

You could one of these valves and not have to use solder at all.http://www.cashacme.com/prod_sharkbite_ball_valve.php
or you could use two of their push-fit to threaded fittings and use a
threaded valve body and not need to solder.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, the sharkbite ball valve looks inviting. But I really don't know
how well it works, and I am not afraid to do the soldering (at least
for this project, since it is a small section of pipe that I have to
work on). Besides, my understanding is that I probably should plan to
replace the elbows for the new section of pipe that will have the new
valve (unless my understanding on this point is wrong).

Out of curiousity, how do you normally determine if something works
well if you've never used it before? You ask people with experience,
and you do some research. I gave you a voice of experience, and,
technically, asking here constitutes research. The Sharkbite fittings
work just fine. I like them far more than the plastic fittings that
Watts and others make.

I've done my share of sweated copper, and the Sharkbite fittings have
found a permanent place in my fittings box. Not because I'm afraid of
soldering - I actually kind of enjoy it - but because I started
viewing it as a waste of my time after doing a project with Sharkbite
fittings. There will always be a place where you need to sweat a
joint, but for the lion's share of repairs and small projects it's a
no-brainer to use something that saves you time and works easily and
well.

Buy one fitting at the Borg and see what you think. Make sure to get
the little C-shaped disconnect tool - an extra buck and a half or so.
Get an end cap as they're the cheapest fitting, and you can reuse it.
Very useful for capping lines so you can turn the water back on to
keep the powers that be happy.

R

On Jul 11, 10:40*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 11, 8:55*pm, wrote:





On Jul 10, 3:29*pm, RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:

On Jul 9, 7:48*am, "David L. Martel" wrote:

DC,

* *Thewaterwill remain in the boiler and ho****erheater. That's not a
problem. You need todrainthewaterfrom the pipes becausewatercan make
soldering impossible.
* *Turn off thewaterat the main valve and open a low faucet (outside bib
faucet, maybe) and a high faucet. Most of thewaterwilldrainout. Plan for
somewaterto spill out when you remove the old valve.

Dave M.

Dave,

I like what you're saying. I was concerned that I had todrainthe hot
waterheater and furnace. At the very least, I guess that I have to
shut off the valve on the ho****erheater in addition to thewater
main, thendrainout the upperwaterfaucets and open up the lower
faucets as well.

To dpb: the valve is a coldwatervalve for an outside faucet in the
backyard. Given the way the pipes run across the basement, the valve
has to be replaced (Leaks pretty heavily. I wouldn't want to try to
fix it - not worth it. I already have a new ball valve to put in its
place). Thewaterhas to be drained before the valve has to be
replaced.

You could one of these valves and not have to use solder at all.http://www.cashacme.com/prod_sharkbite_ball_valve.php
or you could use two of their push-fit to threaded fittings and use a
threaded valve body and not need to solder.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yeah, the sharkbite ball valve looks inviting. But I really don't know
how well it works, and I am not afraid to do the soldering (at least
for this project, since it is a small section of pipe that I have to
work on). Besides, my understanding is that I probably should plan to
replace the elbows for the new section of pipe that will have the new
valve (unless my understanding on this point is wrong).

Out of curiousity, how do you normally determine if something works
well if you've never used it before? *You ask people with experience,
and you do some research. *I gave you a voice of experience, and,
technically, asking here constitutes research. *The Sharkbite fittings
work just fine. *I like them far more than the plastic fittings that
Watts and others make.

I've done my share of sweated copper, and the Sharkbite fittings have
found a permanent place in my fittings box. *Not because I'm afraid of
soldering - I actually kind of enjoy it - but because I started
viewing it as a waste of my time after doing a project with Sharkbite
fittings. *There will always be a place where you need to sweat a
joint, but for the lion's share of repairs and small projects it's a
no-brainer to use something that saves you time and works easily and
well.

Buy one fitting at the Borg and see what you think. *Make sure to get
the little C-shaped disconnect tool - an extra buck and a half or so.
Get an end cap as they're the cheapest fitting, and you can reuse it.
Very useful for capping lines so you can turn thewaterback on to
keep the powers that be happy.

R- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

my original post asked about draining water, not about which type of
valve to use (since I already indicated earlier in the thread that I
have a new ball valve, and knew how to sweat the pipe/valve). While
your offering of information about the Sharkbite valve was generous,
it was not the information I was looking for (I never asked about the
Sharkbite valve). I'm not sure why you took issue with my comment. But
thanks for the information anyway!