I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:17:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

It sounds like the guys you have are totally incompetent.

Why were they out there in the first place?

If they were messing with the wiring just because it was the wrong
color then they were trying to stiff you in the first place.

wrote in message
...
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.



I would have suggested just reidentifying the wires with colored tape to
begin with. Pulling out old wires and putting them back in can be a PIA.
If your change order says pull in new wires and they didn't do that I would
think that some renogoitating is in order for the time that they actually
did spend.



(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.



That conduit is a little on the small side for those wires. It should have
been 3/4" EMT. No wonder they had trouble trying to pull the old conductors
out. You might as well leave it as long is everything is working properly.
I guess the conduit is serving as the equipment grounding conductor. Not
the best way to go for a pool.

On Apr 23, 5:06*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
wrote in message.

That conduit is a little on the small side for those wires. *It should have
been 3/4" EMT. *No wonder they had trouble trying to pull the old conductors
out. *You might as well leave it as long is everything is working properly.
I guess the conduit is serving as the equipment grounding conductor. *Not
the best way to go for a pool.

Totally agree with this view. Don't know for sure, but seems to me
there are code issues here. Common sense says hire a competent
journeyman and redo the the system with proper grounds and at least
3/4" EMT. The OP definitely got ripped off by a couple of hacks. Sad.

Joe

wrote in message
...
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

For the amount of labor and materials to run emt that distance, it really
was a shame not to use a conduit large enough for future expansion. I would
have just remarked the conductors and used them, but as John Grabowski
pointed out, the NEC requires a #12 insulated ground conductor run to a pool
pump

"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:10:11 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
...
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

For the amount of labor and materials to run emt that distance, it really
was a shame not to use a conduit large enough for future expansion. I
would
have just remarked the conductors and used them, but as John Grabowski
pointed out, the NEC requires a #12 insulated ground conductor run to a
pool
pump

And it has to be solid.

NEC 680.21 only requires it to be minimum #12 and insulated, but not solid

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:10:11 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
...
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

For the amount of labor and materials to run emt that distance, it really
was a shame not to use a conduit large enough for future expansion. I would
have just remarked the conductors and used them, but as John Grabowski
pointed out, the NEC requires a #12 insulated ground conductor run to a pool
pump

And it has to be solid.

Terry wrote in
:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:17:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

It sounds like the guys you have are totally incompetent.

Why were they out there in the first place?

If they were messing with the wiring just because it was the wrong
color then they were trying to stiff you in the first place.


I'm no 'lectrician and I thought NEC made cash registers or something
like that but I try to stay withing the rules especially when it comes to
safety. In all the house wiring reading I've done, if a wire is used for
other than it's normal coded color purpose you just mark the end with the
proper color.

Maybe exterior apps or local codes previal.

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Terry wrote in
:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:17:25 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

It sounds like the guys you have are totally incompetent.

Why were they out there in the first place?

If they were messing with the wiring just because it was the wrong
color then they were trying to stiff you in the first place.


I'm no 'lectrician and I thought NEC made cash registers or something
like that but I try to stay withing the rules especially when it comes to
safety. In all the house wiring reading I've done, if a wire is used for
other than it's normal coded color purpose you just mark the end with the
proper color.

Maybe exterior apps or local codes previal.

The National Electric Code has specific requirements for conductor marking,
as it does for damn near everything else. You can remark conductors larger
than #6. You can remark a white conductor to a color, but grounded and
grounding conductors smaller than #6 are generally not supposed to be
remarked

On Apr 23, 4:17 pm, wrote:
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

1/2" conduit is a bit tight, particularly on longish runs the 8s
already in place. This site has a useful conduit fill calculator:
http://jlgengsoft.com/Documents/fill.htm Exactly how hard did they
try to pull out the offending wire? It's possible they damaged the
insulation. Is the work being inspected or are you relying on what
these guys tell you?

You don't have to pay for work that isn't done, but then again, I
don't know how that change order was worded. These were the guys that
kept requesting new boxes of connectors when they hadn't finished a
single box and kept scarfing your beverages. Rack up another one.
Your next step is to find out if these guys are really licensed.
Using a buddy's license doesn't cut it.

R

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:10:11 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
...
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

For the amount of labor and materials to run emt that distance, it really
was a shame not to use a conduit large enough for future expansion. I
would
have just remarked the conductors and used them, but as John Grabowski
pointed out, the NEC requires a #12 insulated ground conductor run to a
pool
pump

And it has to be solid.

NEC 680.21 only requires it to be minimum #12 and insulated, but not solid


Thanks,

They did not put in the 1/2" conductor, the conductor was put in back in
1970 and now code has changed. Most of the pipes are still good.

Except for a few that ran below grade between the planter area and the pool,
those were not even low votage, and the EMT pipe totally disintegrated, back
then I guess the code was to use EMT?

We color coded the wires and moved forward with this. Now on to another
challenge, there is always one after another.

MC

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Apr 23, 4:17 pm, wrote:
I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage
to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box
another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that
the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue
#12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then
they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually
the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused
and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on
the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra
roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with
added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me
no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to
serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to,
thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around
some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since
they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent
time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap
around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8
and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires
through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to
feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and
two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

1/2" conduit is a bit tight, particularly on longish runs the 8s
already in place. This site has a useful conduit fill calculator:
http://jlgengsoft.com/Documents/fill.htm Exactly how hard did they
try to pull out the offending wire? It's possible they damaged the
insulation. Is the work being inspected or are you relying on what
these guys tell you?

You don't have to pay for work that isn't done, but then again, I
don't know how that change order was worded. These were the guys that
kept requesting new boxes of connectors when they hadn't finished a
single box and kept scarfing your beverages. Rack up another one.
Your next step is to find out if these guys are really licensed.
Using a buddy's license doesn't cut it.

R

Well I started watching them closely, they were not taking my stuff, just
exceedingly absent minded.

Last week, one of them left about a half reel of 12/2 MC cables in the
attic, it was a reel of 250' long cable about half used.

But then again, I found tons of crap in my attic, I found about 65 brand new
(but 35 years old) AC filters up there today.

MC