Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater
life. The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life for all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things, including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life). I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get a longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living at home. The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important depending on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that covers only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous expenses (permits). Good luck in whatever you choose. Bob "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message . net... On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote: Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters. Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this discussion. Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and efficiency. It turns out Rick is right. The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period. The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons). Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot) provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor). Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy by the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm. I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but I'm glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost comparisons given any two home heaters. Thanks! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:44:15 -0500, ng_reader wrote:
I did want to read more, and not sure if I saw it or not, but why the quick Nay to the tankless design? Did anyone provide a credible counter-argument? You can decide if it's credible but a counter argument to tankless home water heater selection is here http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...er-heater.html That web site also provides nice selection and installation advice (with pictures!) for all hot water heaters, including those with tanks and tankless. Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
FOR ME I bought a 50 gallon tank since it was the largest that would
fit, with a high output burner to minimize running out of hot water, the warranty is on high output tanks is 7 years. could of got a 12 year tank but I prefered more hot water over longer warranty which is generally pro rated anyway and replacement usually based on list price rather than sale price. sometimes a tank on sale is cheaper than the same tank warranty replaced. minor $$$ savings are just that minor, like some fret buying a new tank, to me its a low enough cost, like one candy bar a week who cares, bottom line i just want lots of nice hot water. costs are way below in priority |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Meat Plow" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:09:01 +0000, James Sweet wrote: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote: Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. You must get a plumbing permit in my town: Home Depot charges $77 Lowes charges almost $90 Sears charges $95 for that same permit. The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is: $400 Home Depot 877-467-0542 $410 Lowes 877-465-6937 $433 Sears 800-877-6420 What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation? Donna Jeez. I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour, it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent. Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one. Most plumber wont even park in your driveway for less than 80 bucks. That's one reason I've never called a plumber. I know most of them aren't getting rich, but still. I've been doing everything myself for so long that I forget sometimes just how much it saves. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message t... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:34:00 -0800 (PST), wrote: the warranty on high output tanks is 7 years. could of got a 12 year tank but I prefered more hot water over longer warranty which is generally pro rated anyway and replacement usually based on list price rather than sale price. Just to be clear, my research indicates ALL warranties (at least all those from Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes) are really only 1 year labor. I don't know about you, but, it's not likely I'll be disconnecting my water heater and bringing it to the manufacturer after that one year is up. May I ask a "real" question? Given installation is about the same price as the home water heater itself, what do you get for that vaunted 12 year warranty after the first year? Sure, they'll replace it for free ... but it costs as much to replace as it did to buy so ... tell me please (I'm not being fascesious) ... WHAT does the warranty *really* buy you after the first year is up? Donna Well if I understand this right, when you buy the heater you pay for the heater, plus you pay for the installation. For a warranty replacement you pay for the installation, does that not save you the cost of the heater? My line of thought is that a unit with a longer warranty is likely built better, with better quality components, and thus likely to last longer. Whether this is universally true I can't say, however last time I looked at them, the 12 year warranty heaters did have a nicer fit & finish than the 6 year models, and the price difference was very small. I'll replace it myself if it ever fails, and I'm sure it will outlast the warranty with the soft water we have here, but if it's a higher quality unit I'm willing to pay for that. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Tank size is very important and cannot be completely disregarded since it
provides the reserve capacity. It is this the tank's storage capacity, in conjunction with the burner size and the EF factor that determines the FHR rating, which determines how much "hot" water you will get before it is considered simply "warm" water. The storage capacity is also very important in regards to determining the physical dimensions of the tank. (I has to fit in the space allowed and the height and spacing of the exhaust flue, water inlet, water outlet and gas inlet will be dependent on the tank's size.) I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. The bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an informed choice. Bob "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:34:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other differences are minor, Hi Hallerb, I agree the whole point is to buy a "large enough heater"; the only thing I'm saying about that is "large enough" has almost nothing directly to do with tank size. Certainly it has nothing to do with warranty. Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58 (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year I read the article you referenced at http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pag...intenance.html It doesn't say WHERE the 41,045 BTU number cames from. What is this "magic" number of 41,045 BTU? |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 12:46 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote: Does this calculation look right to you? 240 therms/year * 1 year/41,045,000 btu * 100,000 btu/1 therm = .58 The part of the math that escapes me is why this calculation uses 1,000 times the BTUs per year than the previous calculations. Any idea? Why do you use 41,045 BTU in one calculation when you have the EF in hand and 41,045,000 BTU in the reverse calculation when you're trying to determine the EF? What is this "magic" number 41.045 anyway? |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
If you do self installation, like most of the audience on your target
newsgroups, then the warranty means a big deal. If you pay someone to install, then it may not be as important, especially if the design, materials, and construction quality is identical. Bob "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message t... Just to be clear, my research indicates ALL warranties (at least all those from Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes) are really only 1 year labor. I don't know about you, but, it's not likely I'll be disconnecting my water heater and bringing it to the manufacturer after that one year is up. May I ask a "real" question? Given installation is about the same price as the home water heater itself, what do you get for that vaunted 12 year warranty after the first year? Sure, they'll replace it for free ... but it costs as much to replace as it did to buy so ... tell me please (I'm not being fascesious) ... WHAT does the warranty *really* buy you after the first year is up? Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
I read the article you referenced athttp://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/wat...
It doesn't say WHERE the 41,045 BTU number cames from. What is this "magic" number of 41,045 BTU? Wrong reference. http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/ima...yAndNight3.jpg The right reference is http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...s?OpenDocument The document that has that calculation is http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf But it still doesn't say where the "magic" 41,045 BTU comes from. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
having only 1 heater leak before the warranty ran out, and as far as i
know its still a pro rata warranty.... number of installed months, vs number of warranteed months, gives a percentage, thats then applied to a brand new similiar heater at full list price on that one heater the sale price was less than the pro rata price, kinda mad i bought my new one somewhere else........ warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres your original invoice? company like sears might no longer be in business in 8 years......... just look at all the retailers who have goine out of business over the years..... a warranty from builders square or hechinger isnt worth the paper its written on........ the BTU # is from the manufacturer, they vary from under 30,000 BTU to 75,000 BTU on my current tank. higher btus cost more to build, better stronger burner and heavier tank to take the added heat. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 11:54 am, " wrote:
the BTU # is from the manufacturer, they vary from under 30,000 BTU to 75,000 BTU on my current tank. I can't say that I know what the 41,045 BTU is in the calculation but it can't be different for different gas burners because it's the same number no matter what gas heater you use. So it must be some kind of other "magic" number. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 10, 7:53 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote: Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water heater? Next time, do these 10 steps twice a year & your heater will last 20 years! 1. Shut the electricity/gas to your water heater 2. Close the cold water intake at the top of the water heater 3. Open a hot water faucet on any level above the water heater 4. Open the drain valve at the bottom of your water heater 5. Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons) 6. Inspect the sacrificial anode (replace rod only if corroded badly) 7. Shut the water faucet that you had opened in the house 8. Reopen the cold water valve intake to the water heater 9. Run all faucets in the house for at least 10 second (or sputtering stops) 10. Turn electricity/gas back on |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 5:12�pm, wrote:
On Feb 10, 7:53 am, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote: Can I get some quick trusty advice on a dripping gas 40 gallon hot-water heater? Next time, do these 10 steps twice a year & your heater will last 20 years! 1. Shut the electricity/gas to your water heater 2. Close the cold water intake at the top of the water heater 3. Open a hot water faucet on any level above the water heater 4. Open the drain valve at the bottom of your water heater 5. Shut the drain valve when that water runs clear (approx 10 gallons) 6. Inspect the sacrificial anode (replace rod only if corroded badly) 7. Shut the water faucet that you had opened in the house 8. Reopen the cold water valve intake to the water heater 9. Run all faucets in the house for at least 10 second (or sputtering stops) 10. Turn electricity/gas back on add be prepared to replace drain valve, which may not shut or drip when closed, espically the plastic ones. some valves will clog replace tank drain valve with a ball valve at new tank install time cycle the T&P valve yearly knowing it may not shut properly or drip. good chance in 20 years it will likely need replaced at least once add the anode may not come loose easily, and you need enough head room to get the new anode in. might generate new troubles in some areas draing may not remove much of anything..... think of this if the tank does last 20 years you will miss improvements of new tanks like better insulation. be cautious of tanks that if they leak can damage finished spaces, contents and carpeting....... |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote: This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. Hi Only Just, I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have. The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that these FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...RAL_R EGISTER Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of Cortland, New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis mine). If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units as their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers. Donna The reason I brought up about the tests is that I have been informed that the manufactures of refrigerators here in Aus have been using "Energy Star" ratings for quite a while, The way they now measure these results is also based on "Peak" start-up current so now the manufactures stagger the start of all the motors in a refrig, eg, compressor starts then after a set period the inner fan will start then the outside fan will start thus reducing that start-up peak so it "Reduces" the energy rating so making it a more desirable unit for the "Greenies" and the power saving conscious people but only hiding the true power consumed, Also there has been numerous letters written into the newspaper tech here about people not getting the same fuel economy in their new vehicle that they bought and the result that they were replied to was that they are only figures supplied by the manufacturer that some test results came up with so they can compare different vehicles as set by an industry standard. Remember that these tests are designed by the industry and no matter who carries out the same tests providing that they are using the same standards and criteria they will also receive the same results to match. Justy. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 6:34*pm, "Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote: This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. Hi Only Just, I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have. The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that these FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad..._id=16637&p_ta.... Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of Cortland, New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis mine). If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units as their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers. Donna The reason I brought up about the tests is that I have been informed that the manufactures of refrigerators here in Aus have been using "Energy Star" ratings for quite a while, The way they now measure these results is also based on "Peak" start-up current so now the manufactures stagger the start of all the motors in a refrig, eg, compressor starts then after a set period the inner fan will start then the outside fan will start thus reducing that start-up peak so it "Reduces" the energy rating so making it a more desirable unit for the "Greenies" and the power saving conscious people but only hiding the true power consumed, Also there has been numerous letters written into the newspaper tech here about people not getting the same fuel economy in their new vehicle that they bought and the result that they were replied to was that they are only figures supplied by the manufacturer that some test results came up with so they can compare different vehicles as set by an industry standard. Remember that these tests are designed by the industry and no matter who carries out the same tests providing that they are using the same standards and criteria they will also receive the same results to match. Justy.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't believe it's accurate to say these tests were designed by the industry. The manufacturers of water heaters certainly gave there opinions and suggestions, but the actual test standards were arrived at by the EPA. And different manufacturers have different opinions of how the various water heaters should be tested. They were not even close to being all in agreement. However, I do agree with most of what you posted. Tests have to assume some type of typical usage to come up with a way to do the tests. And just like with cars, your mileage may vary, especially if your usage is substantially different than the tests. And once the tests are set in place, manufacturers will start to tweak there designs to play the spec game. That's why I wouldn't go crazy trying to figure this out to the last decimal place. When I needed a new water heater, I went with another 50 gal unit, which was what I already had. I did look at the energy efficieny ratings and concluded that for my usage an average unit would be fine. I went down to HD, bought it and installed it in one day. It has a eff rating of .56, and cost me I think about $300 7 years ago. I wasn't gonna lose sleep worrying over whether a .58 or .61 was gonna make enough difference to be worth it. I did get a 10 year warranty, which came in handy about 2 years ago. The thermocouple went and State, who was the manufacturer, had a new one here in 2 days for free. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"James Sweet" wrote in message news:xAxsj.159$sh.74@trnddc07... "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote: Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. You must get a plumbing permit in my town: Home Depot charges $77 Lowes charges almost $90 Sears charges $95 for that same permit. The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is: $400 Home Depot 877-467-0542 $410 Lowes 877-465-6937 $433 Sears 800-877-6420 What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation? Donna Jeez. I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour, it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent. So, how are you counting your time? The work itself may take an hour or so, but the plumber also has to drive to and from the installation site, and that takes time. Sometimes the plumber will also have to drive to the store or warehouse and pick up the heater. And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid for also. According to http://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.html the median wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way to get rich quick. A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to the town office and got the permit yourself? |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote in message ... ((snip)) This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that suits your requirements as in size and water capacity. Vehicle mileage estimates, or for that matter any estimates, are based on a load of assumptions. Your actual experience will vary according to how closely your situation matches the assumptions. By the way, vehicle manufacturers follow a standard test procedure specified by federal law, and the EPA confirms 10%-15% of the results by conducting its own tests. I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440 miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go with changes in temperature. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Bob Shuman" wrote in message ... A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater life. The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life for all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things, including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life). I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get a longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living at home. The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important depending on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that covers only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous expenses (permits). I think it matters no matter who does the installation - either way, you didn't have pay for a new heater. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message ... warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres your original invoice? You keep all of that stuff, and not just in case you ever need to invoke the warranty - you keep it for tax or insurance purposes. You keep this stuff in a file folder in a drawer - it takes a few second to put it there when you buy something new. Or in the case of something like a water heater, you put it in a plastic bag and tape it to the appliance. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message t... On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote: What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters? Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate printed there can be compared on different models. Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation. The labels show the estimated annual energy usage AND the estimated annual cost, based on an average cost of fuel. Take the energy usage and multiply by your own fuel cost assumptions. The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in performance but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models. For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group). I doubt that your calculations are "true" - in the way that you initially didn't account for the time value of money, I didn't see that you took into account the changing cost of fuel. What is today a $25.00 annual saving could be a $50.00, $75.00, $100.00 (make your own assumptions) annual saving a year or three down the line. Nor did you account for general inflation, or even the normal tendency for people's income to rise over time - today's annual payback might mean an hour or two of work a year, but assuming constant fuel costs, it'll probably be less work time a year or two down the line. You can estimate payback periods only by making a cat's cradle of assumptions. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440 miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go with changes in temperature. The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car. The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much less. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Bob Shuman wrote:
A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater life. The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life for all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things, including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life). I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get a longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living at home. The gas water heater in my house was old when I bought the place in 1998...and it is still running fine. I think it is about twenty years old - no leaks so far! And I had three teenagers living here for a number of years... John :-#)# The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important depending on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that covers only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous expenses (permits). Good luck in whatever you choose. Bob "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message . net... On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote: Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters. Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this discussion. Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and efficiency. It turns out Rick is right. The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period. The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons). Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot) provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor). Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy by the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm. I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but I'm glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost comparisons given any two home heaters. Thanks! Donna -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out." |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 10:21*pm, "James Sweet" wrote:
I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. *For instance, my car is rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440 miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. *According the average mileage display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). *Which means simply that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go with changes in temperature. The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car.. The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much less Just to be devil's advocate, I used to have a Rabbit GTI that I got with a bad gas cap; the first time I parked it in the sun with a full tank of gas, the fuel started pouring out around the gas cap and down the quarter panel :( nate |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
the energy guide labels on appliances arent really to determine exact
operating costs/ their real value is in comparing efficenies in a general way. obviously a home with 8 kids will use a lot more hot water than a single guy living alone. with so many variables, incoming water temp, desired water temp, amount of water used, cost of gas, etc etc,. everything is a estimate |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
In my case, it was not pro-rated. I was given a new gas HWH by Sears to
replace the one that developed the small leak within the 7-year tank rust out warranty period. I did need to bring them the old tank though, which was not an issue. Bob wrote in message ... having only 1 heater leak before the warranty ran out, and as far as i know its still a pro rata warranty.... number of installed months, vs number of warranteed months, gives a percentage, thats then applied to a brand new similiar heater at full list price on that one heater the sale price was less than the pro rata price, kinda mad i bought my new one somewhere else........ warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres your original invoice? company like sears might no longer be in business in 8 years......... just look at all the retailers who have goine out of business over the years..... a warranty from builders square or hechinger isnt worth the paper its written on........ the BTU # is from the manufacturer, they vary from under 30,000 BTU to 75,000 BTU on my current tank. higher btus cost more to build, better stronger burner and heavier tank to take the added heat. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"James Sweet" wrote in message news:OsOsj.375$ph.210@trnddc06... I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440 miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go with changes in temperature. The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car. The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much less. Well, maybe I'm calculating wrong. There's an approximately 3% difference between what I calculate as my miles per gallon for last week and what the car calculated. The coefficient of expansion of gasoline is 0.069% per Fahrenheit degree. Coincidentally, over a 30 degree temperature difference, that's between a 2% and a 3% change in volume. For 15 gallons of gas, that comes somewhere between 3 and 4 ounces of gas. The meter on the pump reads out several digits to the right of the decimal point - it appears that this level of accuracy is available at the gas station. The odometer reads out only to the tenth of a mile, which means that I don't have the accuracy at my end to calculate this by hand. I don't know what the internal accuracy is when the car computes average miles per gallon - I presume the fuel pump knows pretty precisely how much gas it's pumped, and the odometer measures distance covered by counting revolutions of something (one of the wheels?), and it seems reasonable that the internal accuracy of the car's computation is more than adequate to notice a difference of this magnitude. I guess the other consideration is that the car is likely computing average mpg using the gas burned (or at least, pumped to the engine) while any by hand calculation is basing it on gas bought, and any difference the fill level will throw the result off. Last week, the attendant took great pains to fill the tank right up to the brim (he was evidently trying to get the total to come out to a whole dollar amount), something that usually doesn't happen. So I have no problem believing that I bought slightly more gas than I burned. Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
Lou wrote:
"James Sweet" wrote in message news:OsOsj.375$ph.210@trnddc06... I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440 miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go with changes in temperature. The expansion and contraction based on temperature for a volume as small as a tank of fuel in a car are so tiny that you'd never be able to measure them with anything around the house, and certainly not the odometer in your car. The fuel temperature varies over a range of perhaps 60F max, usually much less. Well, maybe I'm calculating wrong. There's an approximately 3% difference between what I calculate as my miles per gallon for last week and what the car calculated. The coefficient of expansion of gasoline is 0.069% per Fahrenheit degree. Coincidentally, over a 30 degree temperature difference, that's between a 2% and a 3% change in volume. For 15 gallons of gas, that comes somewhere between 3 and 4 ounces of gas. The meter on the pump reads out several digits to the right of the decimal point - it appears that this level of accuracy is available at the gas station. The odometer reads out only to the tenth of a mile, which means that I don't have the accuracy at my end to calculate this by hand. I don't know what the internal accuracy is when the car computes average miles per gallon - I presume the fuel pump knows pretty precisely how much gas it's pumped, and the odometer measures distance covered by counting revolutions of something (one of the wheels?), and it seems reasonable that the internal accuracy of the car's computation is more than adequate to notice a difference of this magnitude. I guess the other consideration is that the car is likely computing average mpg using the gas burned (or at least, pumped to the engine) while any by hand calculation is basing it on gas bought, and any difference the fill level will throw the result off. Last week, the attendant took great pains to fill the tank right up to the brim (he was evidently trying to get the total to come out to a whole dollar amount), something that usually doesn't happen. So I have no problem believing that I bought slightly more gas than I burned. Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Hi, EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather, road, wind, temp., etc. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
EPA figure is based on sea level wht IDEAL driving condition, weather, road, wind, temp., etc. EPA numbers are bogus the worst were on vehicles like PRIUS. tests always favor the manufacturer.......... |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:53:12 -0500, "Lou"
wrote: Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. I consistently get 30-31 mpg highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain. Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of miles. My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had a heavier passenger load. --Vic |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Vic Smith" wrote in message Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." The news 2008 figures take real life into consideration and are much closer to reality. Previous figures were ideal lab conditions. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message t... "Vic Smith" wrote in message Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." The news 2008 figures take real life into consideration and are much closer to reality. Previous figures were ideal lab conditions. It all points down to the fact that average Joe citizen can't tell the difference unless he can find out exactly how they take all these measurements (The method used and exactly what figures) that each company used and how (If they did) manipulated those figures to get the result as they publish. The main thing that the Government is interested in is a standard across the relevant industry so everyone can make a comparison. Justy. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 15, 6:12*am, "Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message t... "Vic Smith" wrote in message Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago).. Might be they don't account for your driving style. *Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." The news 2008 figures take real life into consideration and are much closer to reality. *Previous figures were ideal lab conditions. It all points down to the fact that average Joe citizen can't tell the difference unless he can find out exactly how they take all these measurements (The method used and exactly what figures) that each company used and how (If they did) manipulated those figures to get the result as they publish. The main thing that the Government is interested in is a standard across the relevant industry so everyone can make a comparison. Justy.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. Same thing for the water heaters. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
-
The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. � It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. � Same thing for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text - no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to look as good as possible |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 14, 11:16*pm, Vic Smith
wrote: On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:53:12 -0500, "Lou" wrote: Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. *Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. *I consistently get 30-31 mpg highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain. Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of miles. *My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had a heavier passenger load. --Vic It is HEAVILY dependent on driving style. In daily commuting (DC traffic, lots of accelerating/slowing down) I get horrible mileage but I too was getting about 30 MPG over the holidays, driving back and forth to visit my parents (90% highway) same drivetrain as you, '05 Impala, 3.1/auto. nate |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:45:10 -0800 (PST), N8N
wrote: On Feb 14, 11:16*pm, Vic Smith wrote: On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:53:12 -0500, "Lou" wrote: Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. *Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. *I consistently get 30-31 mpg highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain. Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of miles. *My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had a heavier passenger load. --Vic It is HEAVILY dependent on driving style. In daily commuting (DC traffic, lots of accelerating/slowing down) I get horrible mileage but I too was getting about 30 MPG over the holidays, driving back and forth to visit my parents (90% highway) same drivetrain as you, '05 Impala, 3.1/auto. nate Think you're the Nate from long ago r.a.d. days. As I recall you were a Chrysler fan. What caused you to go to the dark side? (-: --Vic |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 15, 9:02*am, Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 05:45:10 -0800 (PST), N8N wrote: On Feb 14, 11:16*pm, Vic Smith wrote: On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:53:12 -0500, "Lou" wrote: Whichever figure is right and whatever the explanation, it still seems to me that the mileage estimates published by the EPA are too low, and it's seemed that way ever since I started paying attention (way too many years ago). Might be they don't account for your driving style. *Might be something else - not interested enough to look into it, but I'm sure they lab test versus "real world." Think you said you had an Impala, and the 3.1 engine coupled with the GM lockup trans is an efficient combo. *I consistently get 30-31 mpg highway with mine ('97 Lumina) over a long stretch of varied terrain. Measured by actual gas pumped into the tank over many thousands of miles. *My '88 Celebrity with the 2.8 did about 28 mpg, but always had a heavier passenger load. --Vic It is HEAVILY dependent on driving style. *In daily commuting (DC traffic, lots of accelerating/slowing down) I get horrible mileage but I too was getting about 30 MPG over the holidays, driving back and forth to visit my parents (90% highway) same drivetrain as you, '05 Impala, 3.1/auto. nate Think you're the Nate from long ago r.a.d. days. *As I recall you were a Chrysler fan. *What caused you to go to the dark side? *(-: --Vic I still post there occasionally, but a lot of the intelligent regulars have left and a lot of idiots and trolls have moved in :( The Impala is a company provided vehicle, I don't have any MoPars at the moment as my old Dart was a complete beater and not worth restoring, and prices of good ones are rising. I do have a Porsche 944 that I bought as a daily beater before I got a job with a company car, and my "real" car is a '55 Studebaker - just as bulletproof as a MoPar, but apparently not as collectible yet, so prices are still reasonable. Of course, it's still somewhat apart after I lost my mind after a simple gasket replacement turned into a drivetrain replacement... nate |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 15, 8:43Â*am, " wrote:
- The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. � It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. � Same thing for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text - no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to look as good as possible Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. But trying to change the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 15, 10:33Â*am, wrote:
On Feb 15, 8:43Â*am, " wrote: - The tests are performed by independent labs to the EPA test procedures and standards. � It's not up to the maufacturers to decide how to test, nor can they manipulate the results for the cars. � Same thing for the water heaters.- Hide quoted text - no the manufactuers knowing the test procedures tweak the product to look as good as possible Yes, some of that can certainly be going on. Â* But trying to change the design of the product slightly to come out better in the standard EPA test is a lot different than claiming the tests themselves are not uniform because the manufacturer gets to decide the test method, how the test is done, etc, and then manipulates the results they publish. well everyone knew the old tests werent valid yet it took many years to get them changed |
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