Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:17:25 -0800 (PST), Nexus7 wrote:
however, heaters of different tank sizes are sold in the real world too, and no one is going to push say a 200 gal heater for home use; so as I had mentioned earlier, using just the tank and burner sizes (and ER to a lesser extent, since they aren't that different unless you pay a heck of a lot more) is sufficient. Hi Nexus, I understand your point and it is sound advice to buy "roughly" by tank and burner size and ER. For me, that correlates to FHR and ER. This seemingly well thought out discussion I found in my water heater research seems to have similarly practical advice (e.g., it says all water heaters of similar size & type are basically equal) http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html Some salient points from that article a - Four manufacturers make almost all the water heaters - Almost nobody flushes their tanks periodically - Average lifespan is 13 years - Virtually all water heaters perform similarly - It's easy to install (2 to 4 hours in toto) I wish someone had pointed me to that article (http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html) as the FIRST one I read instead of all the ones touting the patented sedimentation-prevention system, the R-factor of the insulation, the years of warranty (worst of all meaningless numbers)! The good news is that, in the future, if YOUR water heater needs replacement, you'll read this thread and know that the FIRST article I recommend, one who went through the hoops for a day, is this one! Good luck everyone! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:44:50 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the EF calculation. True but ... you can CALCUATE your personal situation (I'm doing it now). READ THIS document (it's a MUST HAVE for water-heater calculations)! http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d (long url) http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...vAttachmentLau nch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf You'll also need your current costs per therm, e.g., read this (for me): http://www.pge.com/tariffs Specifically, these prices of approx $1.33/therm for gas-fired residential water heaters in the local area: http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf Armed with those two documents and the FHR & EF ratings for your prospective water heaters, you can do all the calculations you need to apply to your specific situation. I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there to make this easier on all of us! Donna Note that it might not matter much as all water heaters are basically the same according to this article (http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html). |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:30:43 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required. I called this morning and the town said I need a PLUMBING permit because it's a gas heater. I forgot to ask the price but the installer will handle that for me (and charge me). I just hope there isn't the 8.5% sales tax charged on top of the permit costs! As Will Rogers said, thank God we don't get as much government as we pay for! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
FHR (65 to 75 gallons in an hour seem appropriate for me)
ER (I'd like to find a 0.62 or better but have NOT found any above .59) PRICE (I have plenty of money but I don't want to waste it needlessly) SERVICE (I want to trust that the plumber does the gas job well) I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there Here is the best freeware water heater FHR/ER calculator I can find: http://www.geappliances.com/smar****...aters_form.htm It's not even close to what we want and need by way of water-heater calculators, but, it seems to be the best freeware out there to date. If you can find better, please post so we all benefit! Presumably it would ask you the basic questions that the one above asks, but, then it would take into account the FHV and ER and the current cost per therm. It would then take the price of your water heater into account to tell you which is the best buy per FHV/hour and the all-important recover period when comparing two different water heaters. I'm sure this calculator, which millions of households could benefit from, exists somewhere ... I just don't know where so I include the freeware folks who seem to have a knack for finding jewels on the Internet! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html
AO SMITH they have condensing water heaters with efficencies of mid 90s. if you call them they can give you the phone number of a local stocking dealer, and direct vent models use outside air for combustion, saving more energy....... I went thru this same research some years ago, the FHR is largely based on BTU of burner. I went from a 40 gallon 34,000 BTU tank, to a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU tank and about doubled the first hour rating. because of space issues i couldnt go larger. its served me very well:) |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:31:40 -0800 (PST), beecrofter wrote:
If you won't listen to your husband about waiting, why would you pay any attention to us? I make my own informed decisions. I listen to anyone who has something to offer. And, most important, I always give back more than I ask for, even taking the pains to explain and clarify until all agree - and even supplying phone numbers and even the sequence of buttons to press. In addition, I ask for help to find things that don't seem to exist yet, like a free payback calculator ... which I'm confident we'll find and then we all can benefit. Especially the poor schmuck who in a year or two runs into the same problem yet benefits from all the wonderful discussions we have archived here. Isn't that what the USENET is all about? Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:47:41 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:
I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum We *should* have done that but never did. This article says almost nobody drains their tanks nowadays: http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html So, I don't feel too badly. Also, Home Depot GE salespeople on the phone tried really hard to sell me the patented little fan that stirs up the sediments. It would be nice to find an article that scientifically looks to see if those sediment stirrers really worked or not. Consumer Reports was a total disapointment as they told me to buy based on warranty - which is a marketeer's dream. I'm surprised at Consumer Reports, but, the older (and wiser) I get, the more I realize they don't know what they're doing. Sigh. Dan Rather, and now Consumer Reports. Another trusted icon bites the dust! All I have left is you! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:24:20 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
I pay around $1.15 per therm, I still remember when it was ... 33 cents. I pay around $1.33 per therm. I'm going to do the calculations today. I just called Sears Kenmore (actually AO SMith State Industries makes all the Kenmore brands) asking for their highest-efficiency consumer hot water heater models. - Sears Kenmore Home Water Heater Department: 1-800-877-6420 Here's the summary from Sears for the 40-gallon 12/1 year water heater: - $420/$853 #33144 FHR 81 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K, - 58" tall, 20.5" diameter, 63.5" tall with diverter Here's the summary from Sears for the 50-gallon 12/1 year water heater: - $450/$885 #33154 FHR 97 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K, - 59.5" tall, 22" diameter, 65" tall with diverter The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps $68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused I still have to do the calculations to see if the EF makes any real difference at a cost per therm of $1.33 particularly since the "average" water heater at HD was 0.58 or 0.59 EF, but I could special order a HD one with 0.62 EF but I could get from Sears one with an EF of 0.63. I wonder how much exactly it all matters ... for that ... I need to build the calculations. I think I have enough now - certainly more than I ever thought I needed to know - to make a reasonable not-dumb decision on replacing my home water heater that started leaking yesterday morning. Please let me know if you have any calculators on the web which can COMPARE two home water heaters given the specs we have posted in this thread! Thanks, Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:16:34 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:
The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue. Hi Malcolm, I did more research. Apparently, all GE water heaters sold by HD are made by Rheem who also makes a water heater with an EF of 0.62 but it's hard to find in a HD store. I'm gonna try Sears at 800-877-6420. $360 ($675 installed) GG40T06TVG/182-785 FHR=68 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs The nearly meaningless specs are 40-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty. $420 ($730 installed) GG50T06TVG/184-045 FHR=83 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs The nearly meaningless specs are 50-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty. I am trying to figure out the calculation for the payback time given the difference between an EF of 0.59 and the EF of 0.62. Do you think it's worth it to pay (how much) more and go to more trouble to find a residential gas hot water heater with the EF of 0.62 (given my current cost per therm of $1.33)? Donna PS I'm gonna try the math for FHR & ER payback calculations here http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...n?OpenDocument |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon 11 Feb 2008 15:28:47, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), wrote: http://www.ho****er.com/products/residential/gas.html We're getting closer! It sounds like you are setting up something in your posting so that others are invited to take part. The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a freeware payback calculator which we were missing up until now! http://www.ho****er.com/products/payback.aspx You guessed right the first time ~ it's not really freeware. You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons per day and then it compares two models, given their cost, to calculate how long the payback period is for the more expensive one. The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR and ER calculations which it assumes because it only allows its models to be compared. Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that allows all brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the FHR and ER ratings which all water heaters must provide)? We'd all benefit from your advice, Donna Donna, is there a freeware engineering tool for designing domestic hot water heaters. Maybe there is one which links into a suppliers a bill of material parts systems or their inventory system. That would be useful for all of us. Can you help us? |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:04:46 GMT, Franklin wrote:
Donna, is there a freeware engineering tool for designing domestic hot water heaters. Maybe there is one which links into a suppliers a bill of material parts systems or their inventory system. That would be useful for all of us. Can you help us? Hi Franklin, Thanks for asking for help. I did some research just for you and I think the closest I can find to help you in a freeware section (since you are so well known from the freeware side) is the GAMA Association of Applicance Manufacturers web site - open and available to all. http://www.gamanet.org At that site, they provide links for both supplier and consumer bill-of-material and inventory calculators, mostly for suppliers who wish to design and deliver inventory to commercial and consumer. For example, here's their section on product certification: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...s?OpenDocument Here is their section on government affairs: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/govtaffa...s?OpenDocument And, Franklin, here is their section on public information: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/stats.ns...n?OpenDocument I've run a few more searches for you and this is the best they have that I can find to help you but I will try to see if I can write a PERL program that does the FHV and ER calculations I need. You can rest assured Franklin that I will post the results (if successful and meaningful) back to the group but first, I'm asking the experts who know much more than I do about the implications of the FHR and EF ratings because I want the program to be correct. Don't you think that prudent? As you know, I always help everyone I can and I always give back more than ask for, and I summarize in the end so a newbie starts off where we left .... so, you can rest assured, at least on the water heater topic, that I will provide full telephone numbers, part numbers, product specifications, prices installed, gotchas (like mandatory replacement of flex pipes and $77 plumber's inspection fees) and the like. What else do you need Franklin? Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
According to Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator :
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:37:04 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote: First, don't leave it long but spend a few days doing your homework. Do it today and you'll likely get talked into something you'll regret. This is what I was most worried about! I didn't know if was going to explode or anything. The sticker says it has a 300 psi pressure valve or something like that. I dont' know what 300 psi looks like plastered all over my garage, but I'll bet it isn't pretty! A HWT tank explosion requires at least two things - the thermstat sticks on, the overpressure valve seizes shut (and likely that you have a non-return valve in the supply). A leak implies none of these. An explosion is nothing to joke about. It _can_ completely demolish a house. But that's _not_ a concern with a simple leak. The hazard with a leak is that the leak may abruptly get bigger and dump a lot more water a lot faster. It's probably not going to do this any time soon, but you never know. So, don't leave it long. You could turn off the inlet supply valve if you're away for any protracted periods. -- Chris Lewis, Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message ... "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message I guess they can cut the galvanized pipes because they are at least 18 inches or so vertical. But I don't know if Home Depot includes cutting the galvanized pipes in the cost. Should I call them back and order a shorter (50 inch vs 58 inch) hot water heater so as to preserve the S coil without having to cut the galvanized steel water pipes? Donna If you have galvanized water pipes you may run into additional cost. You may want to consider re-plumbing the house too if that is what you have. I wouldn't suggest that worry unless there is some problem with the existing galvanized pipes. They last many, many years many places. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 11, 12:50*pm, "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator"
wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:24:20 GMT, James Sweet wrote: I pay around $1.15 per therm, I still remember when it was ... 33 cents. I pay around $1.33 per therm. I'm going to do the calculations today. I just called Sears Kenmore (actually AO SMith State Industries makes all the Kenmore brands) asking for their highest-efficiency consumer hot water heater models. - Sears Kenmore Home Water Heater Department: 1-800-877-6420 Here's the summary from Sears for the 40-gallon 12/1 year water heater: - $420/$853 #33144 FHR 81 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K, - 58" tall, 20.5" diameter, 63.5" tall with diverter Here's the summary from Sears for the 50-gallon 12/1 year water heater: - $450/$885 #33154 FHR 97 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K, - 59.5" tall, 22" diameter, 65" tall with diverter The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps *$68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused I still have to do the calculations to see if the EF makes any real difference at a cost per therm of $1.33 particularly since the "average" water heater at HD was 0.58 or 0.59 EF, but I could special order a HD one with 0.62 EF but I could get from Sears one with an EF of 0.63. I wonder how much exactly it all matters ... for that ... I need to build the calculations. I think I have enough now - certainly more than I ever thought I needed to know - to make a reasonable not-dumb decision on replacing my home water heater that started leaking yesterday morning. Please let me know if you have any calculators on the web which can COMPARE two home water heaters given the specs we have posted in this thread! Thanks, Donna If you plan on flushing the tank and inspecting the anode annually from here on out, I would expect that the higher efficiency model will be your better buy unless the price is *significantly* higher. Proper maintenance could make the tank last 30 years or more, it's just that few people actually do it. I write the flush/inspection dates right on the side of the tank in Sharpie, that reminds me when it's time to do it again. nate |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
lets assume a 300 buck a year operating cost and it sounds like you
might save 4% on a more efficent model. 4% of $300 is $12 bucks a year, thats no biggie. now the 90+ tanks might cut your water heating bill by nearly half, but purchase cost will be a lot more |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:31:40 -0800 (PST), beecrofter wrote: If you won't listen to your husband about waiting, why would you pay any attention to us? I make my own informed decisions. I listen to anyone who has something to offer. And, most important, I always give back more than I ask for, even taking the pains to explain and clarify until all agree - and even supplying phone numbers and even the sequence of buttons to press. In addition, I ask for help to find things that don't seem to exist yet, like a free payback calculator ... which I'm confident we'll find and then we all can benefit. Especially the poor schmuck who in a year or two runs into the same problem yet benefits from all the wonderful discussions we have archived here. Isn't that what the USENET is all about? Donna Donna, Thanks so much for this thread. You are doing Great. I did want to read more, and not sure if I saw it or not, but why the quick Nay to the tankless design? Did anyone provide a credible counter-argument? (I'm just looking to get more hot water into the house. I have a 30 gallon and 5 people. So, instead of getting a larger capacity, figured I'd just add tankless. Of course, I'd wait until the telltale drips of a rotting tank, like you did.... !) |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps $68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too? Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be replaced with every installation though. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 11, 10:53�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps �$68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too? Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. �The flex pipe should be replaced with every installation though. or a local handyman, tanks are easy to change, few DIYers get permits |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:53:59 -0500, Edwin Pawlowski wrote: If you shut the water off, you do not have to shut the gas off as long as you keep water in the tank. Hi Edwin, Thank you for this home water heater gas line shut off tidbit as it's not obvious to me the heater can have no water coming in but the gas can be left running - but it makes it easier for me so I'm glad to know that. Doing this can cause drips at the safety valve, since water expands when heated, and the inlet pipe may be the direction the pressure thus developed is normally relieved. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 11, 10:53*pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps *$68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too? Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. *The flex pipe should be replaced with every installation though. What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of course on the area. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c- The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps $68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of course on the area. The total is in the $680 range for most options. Start with he basic $300 charge. Double what a local guy may charge. Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. I'd not get one. What about that $80 trip charge? Sears will hose you no matter what. Last place I'd go. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 12, 4:02*pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c- The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps $68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge from a local plumber? * *They all seem within reason, depending of course on the area. The total is in the $680 range for most options. Install 300 Disposal 10 Permit 77 Flex Pipe 46 That's $433 plus tax for a straightforward typical job. You may be able to get it done for less, but it's not an outrageous price either. *Start with he basic $300 charge. Double what a local guy may charge. $300 is a typical price here in NJ. *Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. *I'd not get one. Any decent licensed plumber is going to get a permit, if one is required. It's not a customer option, either you need one or you don't. Now $77 may be a bit high, but with the way all kinds of fees and permit charges have been jacked up here and in many other parts of the country, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it could cost that much. How about the plumber's time in going and getting it? What about that $80 trip charge? *Sears will hose you no matter what. *Last place I'd go. What $80 trip charge? That was IF SERVICE IS REFUSED. Meaning they make a wasted trip and are locked out, etc. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 12, 4:42�pm, wrote:
On Feb 12, 4:02�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c- The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps $68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge from a local plumber? � �They all seem within reason, depending of course on the area. The total is in the $680 range for most options. Install � 300 Disposal �10 Permit � 77 Flex Pipe �46 That's $433 plus tax for a straightforward typical job. �You may be able to get it done for less, but it's not an outrageous price either. �Start with he basic $300 charge. Double what a local guy may charge. $300 is a typical price here in NJ. �Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. �I'd not get one. Any decent licensed plumber is going to get a permit, if one is required. �It's not a customer option, either you need one or you don't. � Now $77 may be a bit high, but with the way all kinds of fees and permit charges have been jacked up here and in many other parts of the country, it wouldn't surprise me to find that it could cost that much. �How about the plumber's time in going and getting it? What about that $80 trip charge? �Sears will hose you no matter what. �Last place I'd go. What $80 trip charge? � That was IF SERVICE IS REFUSED. �Meaning they make a wasted trip and are locked out, etc.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - sears charges a trip charge for travel. as a matter of fact if you get your furnance with air serviced they charge a trip charge twice, then discount the second trip charge by half......... sears is a rip off that deserves to go into the dustbin of retail history |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
wrote in message ... On Feb 11, 10:53 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras. - Mandatory Installation Fee $300 - Mandatory Disposal Fee $10 - Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77 - Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46 - Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75% - Possible Earthquake Straps $68 - Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100 - Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too? Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be replaced with every installation though. What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of course on the area. It's been better than a couple of decades since I bought a new water heater, and that one was electric, but... the installation fee seems high - enough to double the cost of the appliance. sales tax on the heater? - I seem to remember that something that becomes part of real property is sales tax exempt, if you file the proper certificate, in NJ anyway earthquake straps? The one time I had to replace the water heater, I bought it from Sears - the installed price was better than an independent plumber, the service was fast (called in the morning, heater was in that afternoon) and the installer was pleasant and informative. A lot can change in 20+ years, but if/when I again need a new heater, I'll at least see what they have to say. Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved - take a look at the energy guide label. When I pick a 30 gallon heater and a 50 gallon heater at random and compare the estimated annual operating cost, the difference is $7.00 a year in favor of the smaller heater. Your actual operating costs will depend on the cost of fuel in your area and your actual usage, but while I don't advocate getting a larger heater than you need, the annual operating cost difference doesn't seem like a reason to get something smaller than you could use. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. You must get a plumbing permit in my town: Home Depot charges $77 Lowes charges almost $90 Sears charges $95 for that same permit. The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is: $400 Home Depot 877-467-0542 $410 Lowes 877-465-6937 $433 Sears 800-877-6420 What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation? Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:12:51 -0500, Lou wrote:
Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved - take a look at the energy guide It turns out a lot of people were dead wrong on efficiency, including me. According to the www.gamanet.org web site, operating a 40-gallon hot-water heater is no more or less efficient than operating a 50-gallon hot-water heater. The only thing that matters for efficiency is the Energy Factor (EF) which takes into account the tank size, insulation, and burner BTU. Reference site: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf So, if a 40 gallon hot-water heater has an EF of, say, 0.63 while a 50-gallon hot-water heater has an equal EF of 0.63, then the costs are EXACTLY the same to operate the two heaters! The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at: http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if someone can read that reference document and let me know if my new conclusions that size doesn't matter has any flaws in it as I publically state that all that matters is the EF (based on my reading ten times of that document). Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote: The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at: http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if someone can read that reference document and check my calculations PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS! Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater intelligently. For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same. 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF) 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR) 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation) 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year) 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation) Here are my calculations. PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS! 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law: (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.) For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is: Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58 Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59 Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area! 1. Determine your peak requirements: 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower) 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons ----- TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating 2. Determine price installed (inclusive): Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation) HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation) 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF, and average-use assumption. For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service) energy rates. CHOICE A: Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63 (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year CHOICE B: Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58 (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.) 4. Determine payback period: a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135 b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years) 5. Determine overall savings: The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years. Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the more expensive yet more economical heater would be: (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall 6. Choose the correct water heater: Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy prices and average usage. Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters; here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference document I refer to. If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into those details). Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters. Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this discussion. Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and efficiency. It turns out Rick is right. The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period. The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons). Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot) provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor). Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy by the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm. I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but I'm glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost comparisons given any two home heaters. Thanks! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker = X/Your cost per therm, solve for X. Hi James, You're right. I guess what I meant was I can "solve for X" without looking at the sticker. I can call Sears, Home Depot, or Lowes and just ask for FHR & ER and, from that (and my known cost/therm), I can compare two heaters side by side: CHOICE A: Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63 (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year CHOICE B: Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58 (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year But, you are right. If I were in the store, I could basically double the annual operating costs shown and I'd be in the ballpark. Thanks! We learned a lot in this thread, didn't we! Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters? Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate printed there can be compared on different models. Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation. The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in performance but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models. For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group). Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote: Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one. You must get a plumbing permit in my town: Home Depot charges $77 Lowes charges almost $90 Sears charges $95 for that same permit. The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is: $400 Home Depot 877-467-0542 $410 Lowes 877-465-6937 $433 Sears 800-877-6420 What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation? Donna Jeez. I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour, it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent. Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message t... On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote: What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters? Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate printed there can be compared on different models. Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation. The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in performance but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models. For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group). Donna It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker = X/Your cost per therm, solve for X. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:
It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker = X/Your cost per therm, solve for X. Hi James, In running your calculations, I realized the EF is NOT shown on the energy sticker! But, it can be derived. Is my match below correct? Given an EnergyGuide sticker that says: "This Model Uses 240 therms/year". I think we can calculate the ER. Does this calculation look right to you? 240 therms/year * 1 year/41,045,000 btu * 100,000 btu/1 therm = .58 The part of the math that escapes me is why this calculation uses 1,000 times the BTUs per year than the previous calculations. Any idea? Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote: The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at: http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if someone can read that reference document and check my calculations PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS! Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater intelligently. For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same. 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF) 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR) 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation) 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year) 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation) Here are my calculations. PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS! 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law: (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.) For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is: Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58 Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59 Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area! 1. Determine your peak requirements: 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower) 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons ----- TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating 2. Determine price installed (inclusive): Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation) HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation) 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF, and average-use assumption. For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service) energy rates. CHOICE A: Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63 (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year CHOICE B: Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58 (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.) 4. Determine payback period: a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135 b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years) 5. Determine overall savings: The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years. Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the more expensive yet more economical heater would be: (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall 6. Choose the correct water heater: Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy prices and average usage. Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters; here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference document I refer to. If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into those details). Donna This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that suits your requirements as in size and water capacity. Justy. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 6:14�am, "Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote: The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at: http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...ntLaunch/C2AAF... Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if someone can read that reference document and check my calculations PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS! Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the referenced PDF and charts atwww.gamanet.orgexcept the energy costs which are courtesy of PG&E athttp://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater intelligently. For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.. 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF) 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR) 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation) 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year) 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation) Here are my calculations. PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS! 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law: (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.) For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is: Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58 Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59 Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area! 1. Determine your peak requirements: 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower) 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons ----- TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating 2. Determine price installed (inclusive): Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation) HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation) 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF, and average-use assumption. For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service) energy rates. CHOICE A: Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63 (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year CHOICE B: Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58 (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.) 4. Determine payback period: a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135 b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = �65 months (5.4 years) 5. Determine overall savings: The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years. Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the more expensive yet more economical heater would be: (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall 6. Choose the correct water heater: Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy prices and average usage. Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters; here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference document I refer to. If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into those details). Donna This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that suits your requirements as in size and water capacity. Justy.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other differences are minor, operating costs warranty etc, over the life of the heater, they in any form arent deal breakers. a little shorter life, a little more cost, and as the last poster pointed out manufacturers massage numbers, to make themselves look good. small differences dont matter much as long as you buy a decent tank you will be satisfied. The FHR is largely dependent on burner size. the 75K BTU tanks cost more but in the end what everyone wants is enough hot water. no running out please...... |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote:
This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. Hi Only Just, I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have. The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that these FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...RAL_R EGISTER Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of Cortland, New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis mine). If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units as their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers. Donna |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
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Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Feb 13, 6:14*am, "Only Just" ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com wrote:
"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" wrote in ... On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator wrote: The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at: http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...ntLaunch/C2AAF... Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if someone can read that reference document and check my calculations PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS! Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the referenced PDF and charts atwww.gamanet.orgexcept the energy costs which are courtesy of PG&E athttp://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater intelligently. For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.. 0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF) 1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR) 2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation) 3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year) 4. Calculate payback period (months/installation) Here are my calculations. PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS! 0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law: (based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.) For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is: Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58 Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59 Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area! 1. Determine your peak requirements: 20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour 20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour 2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons 4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower) 4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons 14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons 5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons 26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons 32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons ----- TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating 2. Determine price installed (inclusive): Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation) HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation) 3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF, and average-use assumption. For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service) energy rates. CHOICE A: Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63 (41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year CHOICE B: Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58 (41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.) 4. Determine payback period: a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135 b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = *65 months (5.4 years) 5. Determine overall savings: The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years. Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the more expensive yet more economical heater would be: (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall 6. Choose the correct water heater: Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy prices and average usage. Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters; here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference document I refer to. If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into those details). Donna This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda. an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that suits your requirements as in size and water capacity. Justy.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No, the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent testing lab. Now, on the other hand, those tests are performed under a certain set of criteria based on an estimate of how the water heater would actually be used. I would say the difference in how someone will actually uses it in practice as compared to how it was tested, could easily outweigh small differences in the recorded test data under the controlled conditions. I would bet that a heater rated at an eff of . 61 vs one at .58 could easily be a wash or even upside down in actual use. Same thing for the first hour rating. In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores the time value of money. Laying out $135 today and getting it back over the next 6 years doesn't account for the fact that the money could be earning a return. Or if you put the heater on a credit card and pay interest, even for a short time, and the perceived savings are gone. Take any of that into account and the difference between these heaters shrinks. |
Quick basic advice on a dripping gas 40-gal hot-water heater
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:37 -0800 (PST), wrote:
the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent testing lab. I agree. Intertek Testing Services is supposedly independent. If anyone has information otherwise, please post. In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores the time value of money. Very good point. Here are the original calculations I posted for inspection: a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135 b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years) e. Overall savings = (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 How would we change these to take into account the time value of money? As always, I'll hazard my math to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Using the compound interest calculator here ... http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm that $135 at 5% compounded monthly over the 5.4 years payback period actually costs $176.75 at the 65-month point. You're right. That's a big difference! (I don't use credit cards so I won't factor in the additional, but huge, credit-card costs if paid on installment!) Conversly, the annual savings over that same 65-month period is also increased, from $25/year to $26.28 per year using the same 5% interest rate compounded monthly. This more accurate payback-period calculation then becomes $177 / $26 * 365 / 30 = 83 months (6.9 years). The overall savings now shrinks a whopping 16% from $190 when not taking into account the time value of money, to (13 years - 6.9 years) * $26/year = $159 Thanks for testing the math. Please let me know what you think of the new, more realistic calculations which take into account the time value of money. Donna PS Can someone in the field write a calculator to do all this math for us? |
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