I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/

Thanks, cliff

In article .com, " wrote:
I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.

At that distance, for the neutral and the two hot conductors, minimum of 6AWG
copper for 50A or 4AWG copper for 60A, and for the ground, minimum of 8AWG
copper at either 50A or 60A.

Grounding requirements are different in subpanels. You must make sure that:
- the subpanel has two separate bars for ground and neutral
- the two bars are NOT connected to each other (they ARE in the main)
- the neutral bar is insulated from the panel chassis
- the ground bar is NOT insulated from the panel chassis

You may also need a separate ground rod at the garage; check with your local
building inspector.

What type wire would be the least expensive/

You'll need to make a few phone calls to find that out.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jul 26, 1:20 pm, "
wrote:
I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/

Thanks, cliff

There will be a trade-off: more investment in copper will result in
reduced resistive loss in line over time.

J

wrote:

I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/

There are two issues here for wire size:
1) Minimum code required size for the current, regardless of length.
That would be 8AWG for copper and 6AWG for Aluminum, for either 50 or 60A.

2) Acceptable voltage drop at maximum current for that length:
My old 1990 NEC does not specify, but only recommends a voltage drop
percentage of 3% for the feeder or 5% including the branch circuit.
This would be based on the actual load, not the subpanel rating.
Also, if you will always have a balanced load, you can compute it
based on percentage of 240 V, and you may be able to get away with
a lesser wire for the neutral, if you may have a way unbalanced load,
you would have to compute it based on a percentage of 120 V.
Here is a bit of data:

AWG ohms/500' V drop @ 50A % of 240V
6 Cu .25 12.5 5.2
4 Cu .154 7.7 3.2
2 Cu .1 5.0 2.1

6 Al .404 20.2 8.4
4 Al .254 12.7 5.3
2 Al .16 8.0 3.3
1 Al .13 6.3 2.6%

You may find Aluminum to be cheaper for those wire sizes
even though you need a larger size for Al.

If you need to ask these questions, you probably should be talking
to you local building inspector because there are many other
code issues to do this right.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250'
underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would
like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/

Thanks, cliff

I ran underground wiring to the garage I built 150 feet from the
panel. I wanted only 30 amp service and used # 4 copper. Has been
very satisfactory for ten+ years.
Bob-tx

M Q wrote:

wrote:

I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/


There are two issues here for wire size:
1) Minimum code required size for the current, regardless of length.
That would be 8AWG for copper and 6AWG for Aluminum, for either 50 or
60A.

2) Acceptable voltage drop at maximum current for that length:
My old 1990 NEC does not specify, but only recommends a voltage drop
percentage of 3% for the feeder or 5% including the branch circuit.
This would be based on the actual load, not the subpanel rating.
Also, if you will always have a balanced load, you can compute it
based on percentage of 240 V, and you may be able to get away with
a lesser wire for the neutral, if you may have a way unbalanced load,
you would have to compute it based on a percentage of 120 V.
Here is a bit of data:

AWG ohms/500' V drop @ 50A % of 240V
6 Cu .25 12.5 5.2
4 Cu .154 7.7 3.2
2 Cu .1 5.0 2.1

6 Al .404 20.2 8.4
4 Al .254 12.7 5.3
2 Al .16 8.0 3.3
1 Al .13 6.3 2.6%

You may find Aluminum to be cheaper for those wire sizes
even though you need a larger size for Al.

If you need to ask these questions, you probably should be talking
to you local building inspector because there are many other
code issues to do this right.



Possible typo: #8 Cu won't do it for a 60 Amp feeder.

Speedy Jim wrote:

M Q wrote:

wrote:

I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/



There are two issues here for wire size:
1) Minimum code required size for the current, regardless of length.
That would be 8AWG for copper and 6AWG for Aluminum, for either 50
or 60A.
....
If you need to ask these questions, you probably should be talking
to you local building inspector because there are many other
code issues to do this right.



Possible typo: #8 Cu won't do it for a 60 Amp feeder.

Oops -- thanks for catching that. I was looking at the table on the
wrong side of the page. For underground UF,
#8 Cu will only do 40 A.

#6 Cu 55 A
#4 Cu 70 A

#4 Al 55 A
#3 Al 65 A

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
M Q wrote:

wrote:

I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/


There are two issues here for wire size:
1) Minimum code required size for the current, regardless of length.
That would be 8AWG for copper and 6AWG for Aluminum, for either 50 or
60A.

2) Acceptable voltage drop at maximum current for that length:
My old 1990 NEC does not specify, but only recommends a voltage drop
percentage of 3% for the feeder or 5% including the branch circuit.
This would be based on the actual load, not the subpanel rating.
Also, if you will always have a balanced load, you can compute it
based on percentage of 240 V, and you may be able to get away with
a lesser wire for the neutral, if you may have a way unbalanced load,
you would have to compute it based on a percentage of 120 V.
Here is a bit of data:

AWG ohms/500' V drop @ 50A % of 240V
6 Cu .25 12.5 5.2
4 Cu .154 7.7 3.2
2 Cu .1 5.0 2.1

6 Al .404 20.2 8.4
4 Al .254 12.7 5.3
2 Al .16 8.0 3.3
1 Al .13 6.3 2.6%

You may find Aluminum to be cheaper for those wire sizes
even though you need a larger size for Al.

If you need to ask these questions, you probably should be talking
to you local building inspector because there are many other
code issues to do this right.


At 250 feet, I'd set a second meter and a seperate service, assuming there
is a line near enough. Or are you fed out at the road, and this is the back
forty, and you'd have to pay for another pole? Yes, the upfront costs would
be higher, but if you use much juice out there, it'll be more reliable, and
would certainly scare the eventual purchaser of the place less.

aem sends...

At 250 feet, I'd set a second meter and a seperate service, assuming there
is a line near enough.

Not a good idea in some areas depending on the electrical utility. A
separate service at an outbuilding may be considered "commercial" even
though it's a residential garage. This means you might be paying commercial
rates plus a meter-reading/billing fee each month. In my case, this meant
about $12 a month whether I used any power or not. Much better to keep it on
the residential meter. YMMV

"SRN" wrote in message
...

At 250 feet, I'd set a second meter and a seperate service, assuming
there
is a line near enough.

Not a good idea in some areas depending on the electrical utility. A
separate service at an outbuilding may be considered "commercial" even
though it's a residential garage. This means you might be paying
commercial rates plus a meter-reading/billing fee each month. In my case,
this meant about $12 a month whether I used any power or not. Much better
to keep it on the residential meter. YMMV
What? You can't put a mother-in-law trailer behind the barn any more?

(Yeah, you're right- but it does vary by area. A rural co-op company would
probably understand, but an electric company with a pretty building downtown
might not. Probably best to call their customer service line and ask
hypothetical questions.)

aem sends...

"M Q" wrote in message
news:fM7qi.10763$Ub7.9895@trnddc04...


Speedy Jim wrote:

M Q wrote:

wrote:

I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like
a 220, 50 or 60 amp service.
What type wire would be the least expensive/



There are two issues here for wire size:
1) Minimum code required size for the current, regardless of length.
That would be 8AWG for copper and 6AWG for Aluminum, for either 50
or 60A.
...
If you need to ask these questions, you probably should be talking
to you local building inspector because there are many other
code issues to do this right.



Possible typo: #8 Cu won't do it for a 60 Amp feeder.

Oops -- thanks for catching that. I was looking at the table on the
wrong side of the page. For underground UF,
#8 Cu will only do 40 A.

#6 Cu 55 A
#4 Cu 70 A

#4 Al 55 A
#3 Al 65 A


Are you up on NEC?????

First, your amp ratings do not account for voltage drop at 250'.

Secondly, if you are suggesting that he use UF for a service entrance, read
NEC 340.12
(it shall not be used as a service entrance cable)

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
Are you up on NEC?????

Are you?????

Secondly, if you are suggesting that he use UF for a service entrance, read
NEC 340.12
(it shall not be used as a service entrance cable)

A feeder to a garage is not a service entrance as defined in the NEC.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Secondly, if you are suggesting that he use UF for a service entrance,
read
NEC 340.12
(it shall not be used as a service entrance cable)

A feeder to a garage is not a service entrance as defined in the NEC.


Where's this stated in the NEC2005?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...

A feeder to a garage is not a service entrance as defined in the NEC.

Where's this stated in the NEC2005?

In the "definitions" section at the beginning:

Service: The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy
from the serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served.


If the garage is being fed from the main panel, then by definition that
feed is not a "service".

Chris

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...


Secondly, if you are suggesting that he use UF for a service entrance,
read
NEC 340.12
(it shall not be used as a service entrance cable)

A feeder to a garage is not a service entrance as defined in the NEC.


Where's this stated in the NEC2005?


Article 100, Definitions

"Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from the
serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served."

"Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment ... and the
final branch circuit overcurrent device."

What the OP has is a feeder, not a service.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...


Secondly, if you are suggesting that he use UF for a service entrance,
read
NEC 340.12
(it shall not be used as a service entrance cable)

A feeder to a garage is not a service entrance as defined in the NEC.


Where's this stated in the NEC2005?


Article 100, Definitions

"Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from
the
serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served."

"Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment ... and the
final branch circuit overcurrent device."

What the OP has is a feeder, not a service.


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel, panel to
garage.

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Using the two examples, please list the feeders and service conductors for
each.

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...


Secondly, if you are suggesting that he use UF for a service entrance,
read
NEC 340.12
(it shall not be used as a service entrance cable)

A feeder to a garage is not a service entrance as defined in the NEC.


Where's this stated in the NEC2005?


Article 100, Definitions

"Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from
the
serving utility to the wiring system of the premises served."

"Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment ... and the
final branch circuit overcurrent device."

What the OP has is a feeder, not a service.


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel, panel to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel, panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel, panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel,
panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel,
panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

It's not relevant to the question raised by the OP.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel,
panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

It's not relevant to the question raised by the OP.


Ok, just admit you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

Third times a charm...

So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel,
panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

It's not relevant to the question raised by the OP.


Ok, just admit you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

It's not relevant. Go away.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to panel, panel
to
garage.
Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

Yes you can but to get enough current and a low enough voltage drop for
reasonably efficient operation you will be running individual UF single
conductor cables. In the sizes you will need to supply the house and
the garage that is the only way type UF is available. If there are any
livestock on the premise then I suggest that you run separate neutral
and ground conductors in spite of the additional cost.
--
Tom Horne

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...


Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to
panel,
panel
to
garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

It's not relevant to the question raised by the OP.


Ok, just admit you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

It's not relevant. Go away.


Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

That's just what I thought... all mouth and no answers.

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

Don't want to answer *you*. You asked the question only to be argumentative.
Go away.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

Don't want to answer *you*. You asked the question only to be
argumentative.
Go away.


No, I asked the question to get your input.
So please answer the question.

For clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

Don't want to answer *you*. You asked the question only to be
argumentative.
Go away.


No, I asked the question to get your input.
So please answer the question.

For clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

If there's a disconnect in the distribution panel, then that's the service
entrance, and the lines from there to anywhere else are feeders.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

Don't want to answer *you*. You asked the question only to be
argumentative.
Go away.


No, I asked the question to get your input.
So please answer the question.

For clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

If there's a disconnect in the distribution panel, then that's the service
entrance, and the lines from there to anywhere else are feeders.


Does the disconnect have to provide overcurrent protection as well?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...

In article , kjpro @

usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
gy.net...

In article , kjpro @

usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
digy.net...

In article , kjpro @

usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
digy.net...



Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to

panel,

panel

to

garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

It's not relevant to the question raised by the OP.


Ok, just admit you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

It's not relevant. Go away.



Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

That's just what I thought... all mouth and no answers.



Gee, now who could that be.

"edbedb" wrote in message
. ..
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...

In article , kjpro @

usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
gy.net...

In article , kjpro @

usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
digy.net...

In article , kjpro @

usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
digy.net...



Two examples...

#1 HV lines to transformer, trans to house meter, meter to

panel,

panel

to

garage.

Which is the situation the OP has.


So, for clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

Not relevant.


It's a question, so yes, it *is* relevant.

It's not relevant to the question raised by the OP.


Ok, just admit you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

It's not relevant. Go away.



Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

That's just what I thought... all mouth and no answers.



Gee, now who could that be.


You?

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

Ok, so you *can't* or don't *want* to answer the question.

Don't want to answer *you*. You asked the question only to be
argumentative.
Go away.


No, I asked the question to get your input.
So please answer the question.

For clarification, Ex #2 as posted earlier...

#2 HV lines to transformer, trans to meter on pedestal, meter to
distribution panel on ped, d-panel to house - d-panel to garage.

Can you run UF from the d-panel to a house/garage?

If there's a disconnect in the distribution panel, then that's the
service
entrance, and the lines from there to anywhere else are feeders.


Does the disconnect have to provide overcurrent protection as well?


Where'd Doug go?

replying to Bob, Jack Smith wrote:
I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground feeder
from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like a 240, 60 amp
service 2-phase service. What type wire would be the least expensive?

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ge-237398-.htm

On 3/21/2019 7:14 AM, Jack Smith wrote:
replying to Bob, Jack Smith wrote:
I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder
from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like a 240,
60 amp
service 2-phase service. What type wire would be the least expensive?

Â* Aluminum is cheaper than copper , and there are calculators online to
figure out the wire size . Search wire sizing calculator , the results I
got for your case are there - I know the numbers but you'll have to find
them for yourself . For my shop at 100A/60 feet I need #1 copper or 1/0
aluminum . This information was VERY easy to find , are you stupid or
just lazy ?

--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 07:47:38 -0500, Terry Coombs
wrote:

On 3/21/2019 7:14 AM, Jack Smith wrote:
replying to Bob, Jack Smith wrote:
I am trying to find out the wire sizes needed for a 250' underground
feeder
from the main panel, to a sub panel in the garage. I would like a 240,
60 amp
service 2-phase service. What type wire would be the least expensive?

* Aluminum is cheaper than copper , and there are calculators online to
figure out the wire size . Search wire sizing calculator , the results I
got for your case are there - I know the numbers but you'll have to find
them for yourself . For my shop at 100A/60 feet I need #1 copper or 1/0
aluminum . This information was VERY easy to find , are you stupid or
just lazy ?
He's a HomeMoaner - take your pick.