I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings. I've never done any soldering, but
I've got a book that explains it and it didn't look that hard. I even
talked to people who made it sound like a really simple thing.

Well, my first attempt went really, really poorly. I couldn't get a
solid bead of solder around the joint. It was a total mess. So, I cut
that away, cut another section of new pipe, bought some more couplings
and tried again. I'm still having a similar problem. I can't get the
solder to go onto the pipe. It's really ****ing me off!

This should be simple. I sanded the fittings and applied soldering
paste, put the fittings together, heated them to the point where the
paste is bubbling, and then tried to apply the solder. Both sets of
instructions I've read said to stop applying heat at that point and
the solder should just go on easily. Well, I tried that and it isn't
working. Someone else said I should keep applying heat to the solder.
I tried that and it isn't working. It seems like no matter how much I
heat the joint or the solder, it won't stick to the pipe. It's like
the solder just breaks off into little chunks and falls right off.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? This is seriously ****ing me off and
I'm about to do some serious damage to my plumbing on purpose. This is
freaking simple stuff, yet I can't do it and I'm ready to put my fist
through a wall, which is a bad idea. I'd like to get this done without
breaking any bones.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John

on 7/22/2007 7:02 PM said the following:
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings. I've never done any soldering, but
I've got a book that explains it and it didn't look that hard. I even
talked to people who made it sound like a really simple thing.

Well, my first attempt went really, really poorly. I couldn't get a
solid bead of solder around the joint. It was a total mess. So, I cut
that away, cut another section of new pipe, bought some more couplings
and tried again. I'm still having a similar problem. I can't get the
solder to go onto the pipe. It's really ****ing me off!

This should be simple. I sanded the fittings and applied soldering
paste, put the fittings together, heated them to the point where the
paste is bubbling, and then tried to apply the solder. Both sets of
instructions I've read said to stop applying heat at that point and
the solder should just go on easily. Well, I tried that and it isn't
working. Someone else said I should keep applying heat to the solder.
I tried that and it isn't working. It seems like no matter how much I
heat the joint or the solder, it won't stick to the pipe. It's like
the solder just breaks off into little chunks and falls right off.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? This is seriously ****ing me off and
I'm about to do some serious damage to my plumbing on purpose. This is
freaking simple stuff, yet I can't do it and I'm ready to put my fist
through a wall, which is a bad idea. I'd like to get this done without
breaking any bones.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John


Open a sink faucet above the pipe you are trying to solder. It sounds
ike you have water in the pipe which is drawing away the heat.
Get a pail to put under the pipe you are trying to solder to catch the
water after you open the faucet.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Jul 22, 7:02 pm, "
wrote:
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings. I've never done any soldering, but
I've got a book that explains it and it didn't look that hard. I even
talked to people who made it sound like a really simple thing.

Well, my first attempt went really, really poorly. I couldn't get a
solid bead of solder around the joint. It was a total mess. So, I cut
that away, cut another section of new pipe, bought some more couplings
and tried again. I'm still having a similar problem. I can't get the
solder to go onto the pipe. It's really ****ing me off!

This should be simple. I sanded the fittings and applied soldering
paste, put the fittings together, heated them to the point where the
paste is bubbling, and then tried to apply the solder. Both sets of
instructions I've read said to stop applying heat at that point and
the solder should just go on easily. Well, I tried that and it isn't
working. Someone else said I should keep applying heat to the solder.
I tried that and it isn't working. It seems like no matter how much I
heat the joint or the solder, it won't stick to the pipe. It's like
the solder just breaks off into little chunks and falls right off.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? This is seriously ****ing me off and
I'm about to do some serious damage to my plumbing on purpose. This is
freaking simple stuff, yet I can't do it and I'm ready to put my fist
through a wall, which is a bad idea. I'd like to get this done without
breaking any bones.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John



Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply
the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing
patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

Open a sink faucet above the pipe you are trying to solder. It sounds
ike you have water in the pipe which is drawing away the heat.
Get a pail to put under the pipe you are trying to solder to catch the
water after you open the faucet.

This is a vertical pipe outside my house that feeds my sprinkler
system. I'm working on a section that has no water in it at all right
now. I appreciate the tip, though.

Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply
the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing
patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

When I did this yesterday I thought my problem was that I was getting
it too hot and was drying out the soldering paste. I heated the joint
for a really long time yesterday and the results were awful. Then I re-
read my instructions and they said to heat it for 4-5 seconds. I
thought maybe I was drying out the flux and that made it difficult for
the solder to go where it needed to go. I thought it was pretty dang
hot when I tried it again earlier. I don't know how it's possible that
the solder wouldn't stick. It's just blowing my mind. I've never even
watched someone do this, though. I bet i'd spot my mistakes
immediately if I could watch someone who knew what he was doing.

wrote:
Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply
the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing
patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

When I did this yesterday I thought my problem was that I was getting
it too hot and was drying out the soldering paste. I heated the joint
for a really long time yesterday and the results were awful. Then I
re- read my instructions and they said to heat it for 4-5 seconds. I
thought maybe I was drying out the flux and that made it difficult for
the solder to go where it needed to go. I thought it was pretty dang
hot when I tried it again earlier. I don't know how it's possible that
the solder wouldn't stick. It's just blowing my mind. I've never even
watched someone do this, though. I bet i'd spot my mistakes
immediately if I could watch someone who knew what he was doing.

Video of copper pipe soldering
http://www.askthebuilder.com/How_to_...pe_Video.shtml

Copper to brass soldering video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HubIlo01w


--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a shade
of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the
solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all the
way around the fitting.

Scott-
wrote in message
ups.com...
Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply
the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing
patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

When I did this yesterday I thought my problem was that I was getting
it too hot and was drying out the soldering paste. I heated the joint
for a really long time yesterday and the results were awful. Then I re-
read my instructions and they said to heat it for 4-5 seconds. I
thought maybe I was drying out the flux and that made it difficult for
the solder to go where it needed to go. I thought it was pretty dang
hot when I tried it again earlier. I don't know how it's possible that
the solder wouldn't stick. It's just blowing my mind. I've never even
watched someone do this, though. I bet i'd spot my mistakes
immediately if I could watch someone who knew what he was doing.

On Jul 22, 5:25 pm, "Dave Bugg" wrote:
wrote:
Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply
the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing
patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

When I did this yesterday I thought my problem was that I was getting
it too hot and was drying out the soldering paste. I heated the joint
for a really long time yesterday and the results were awful. Then I
re- read my instructions and they said to heat it for 4-5 seconds. I
thought maybe I was drying out the flux and that made it difficult for
the solder to go where it needed to go. I thought it was pretty dang
hot when I tried it again earlier. I don't know how it's possible that
the solder wouldn't stick. It's just blowing my mind. I've never even
watched someone do this, though. I bet i'd spot my mistakes
immediately if I could watch someone who knew what he was doing.

Video of copper pipe solderinghttp://www.askthebuilder.com/How_to_Solder_Copper_Pipe_Video.shtml

Copper to brass soldering videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1HubIlo01w

--
Davewww.davebbq.com

I just watched those videos (thanks, by the way!) and I still don't
see what I'm doing wrong. The only thing I can think is maybe I didn't
have the fittings quite shiny enough, but I thought they were. Or
maybe I'm using too much flux? Is that possible?

I guess the problem I have now is that I have an unfinished soldering
job. Is it possible to pick up where I left off or do I have to cut
that section out and start over with a new coupling?

Thanks!

wrote in message
ps.com...
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings. I've never done any soldering, but
I've got a book that explains it and it didn't look that hard. I even
talked to people who made it sound like a really simple thing.

Well, my first attempt went really, really poorly. I couldn't get a
solid bead of solder around the joint. It was a total mess. So, I cut
that away, cut another section of new pipe, bought some more couplings
and tried again. I'm still having a similar problem. I can't get the
solder to go onto the pipe. It's really ****ing me off!

This should be simple. I sanded the fittings and applied soldering
paste, put the fittings together, heated them to the point where the
paste is bubbling, and then tried to apply the solder. Both sets of
instructions I've read said to stop applying heat at that point and
the solder should just go on easily. Well, I tried that and it isn't
working. Someone else said I should keep applying heat to the solder.
I tried that and it isn't working. It seems like no matter how much I
heat the joint or the solder, it won't stick to the pipe. It's like
the solder just breaks off into little chunks and falls right off.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? This is seriously ****ing me off and
I'm about to do some serious damage to my plumbing on purpose. This is
freaking simple stuff, yet I can't do it and I'm ready to put my fist
through a wall, which is a bad idea. I'd like to get this done without
breaking any bones.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John


To go against what someone else suggested - you may be getting the joint too
hot. The solder won't stick or wick into the joint if its too hot.

BTW: This isn't something you can learn in one day - trust me. It takes
quite a bit of practice and on top of that brass is even more difficult to
solder because it's typically thicker than copper. If it all possible I'd
practice in the garage on a couple pieces of spare until you get it down
right - then work on the real problem. It's something you have to get right
and it won't be obvious to your untrained eye when it is right.

On Jul 22, 5:30 pm, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:
The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a shade
of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the
solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all the
way around the fitting.

It think it doesn't help that I'm using propane. From what I've heard
today, propane isn't as hot as acetylene or MAPP. Maybe I'll try again
and let it get even hotter. I'm going to end up going through a whole
bottle of propane on two couplings! This is ridiculous... I know I'm
not a handy man, but this can't be that hard! Those videos made it
look so easy.

On Jul 22, 5:37 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
wrote in message

ps.com...



I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings. I've never done any soldering, but
I've got a book that explains it and it didn't look that hard. I even
talked to people who made it sound like a really simple thing.

Well, my first attempt went really, really poorly. I couldn't get a
solid bead of solder around the joint. It was a total mess. So, I cut
that away, cut another section of new pipe, bought some more couplings
and tried again. I'm still having a similar problem. I can't get the
solder to go onto the pipe. It's really ****ing me off!

This should be simple. I sanded the fittings and applied soldering
paste, put the fittings together, heated them to the point where the
paste is bubbling, and then tried to apply the solder. Both sets of
instructions I've read said to stop applying heat at that point and
the solder should just go on easily. Well, I tried that and it isn't
working. Someone else said I should keep applying heat to the solder.
I tried that and it isn't working. It seems like no matter how much I
heat the joint or the solder, it won't stick to the pipe. It's like
the solder just breaks off into little chunks and falls right off.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? This is seriously ****ing me off and
I'm about to do some serious damage to my plumbing on purpose. This is
freaking simple stuff, yet I can't do it and I'm ready to put my fist
through a wall, which is a bad idea. I'd like to get this done without
breaking any bones.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John

To go against what someone else suggested - you may be getting the joint too
hot. The solder won't stick or wick into the joint if its too hot.

BTW: This isn't something you can learn in one day - trust me. It takes
quite a bit of practice and on top of that brass is even more difficult to
solder because it's typically thicker than copper. If it all possible I'd
practice in the garage on a couple pieces of spare until you get it down
right - then work on the real problem. It's something you have to get right
and it won't be obvious to your untrained eye when it is right.

Thanks, that opinion does help. I was beginning to think that I had
gotten it too hot. The solder is definitely not wicking into the joint
like it's supposed to. It just clumps up and falls away. Very
annoying. I'm trying to avoid having to pay a professional to come do
it, though. I've called a couple of places and given them very good
information about the job and they still won't quote me a price over
the phone. And they charge $40 just to come out and look. I don't
know if they're going to charge $50, $100, $200...I have absolutely no
idea. But hell, I've already spent nearly $80 for the supplies to try
it myself. What a pain in the ass...

On Jul 22, 6:17 pm, "
wrote:
Most likely cause is you are not getting the joint hot enough. Apply
the heat for a longer time. Then chill out (pun intended). Losing
patience is not the best way to accomplish this task.

When I did this yesterday I thought my problem was that I was getting
it too hot and was drying out the soldering paste. I heated the joint
for a really long time yesterday and the results were awful. Then I re-
read my instructions and they said to heat it for 4-5 seconds. I
thought maybe I was drying out the flux and that made it difficult for
the solder to go where it needed to go. I thought it was pretty dang
hot when I tried it again earlier. I don't know how it's possible that
the solder wouldn't stick. It's just blowing my mind. I've never even
watched someone do this, though. I bet i'd spot my mistakes
immediately if I could watch someone who knew what he was doing.

Make sure that the solder is good for brass pipe, and that the
soldering paste is compatible with the solder. I know this sounds
like common sense, but I was having lots of issues with getting good
results with 95/5 solder and lead free paste. I changed over to lead
free, silver bearing solder and paste that specifically says "lead-
free" on it. The silver bearing solder only costs around $.50 more
per pound than the regular lead free solder. A couple of other tips:

1) Heat both sides of the joint. Apply more heat to whichever part
has more metal to it. I like to work around the joint, then apply
solder to the opposite side of the joint that I am applying the heat
to.

2) If your torch can use propane or MAPP gas, use MAPP since it can
generate more heat.

3) You don't need to get the metal glowing cherry red, it is easy to
apply too much heat to it, and burn off all the flux.

Feel free to email me off list if you are still having issues.

JK

wrote:
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. ...

Read this and several replies and your responses --

First question I have is "brass"??? You sure or you mean copper which
would be far more normal ordinary plumbing fittings.

After you get past that, what are you using for flux and solder?

And, finally, heat source? A 1" pipe takes a pretty decent-sized flame
to heat adequately quickly.

As for technique, heat the fittings, not the pipe and definitely not the
solder. Hot enough is when the solder melts on touch to the joint. If
it doesn't flow easily you've either got incompatible solder for the
material, flux, or both.

If you are new at this, I'd also suggest buying a couple feet of regular
1/2" Cu and a few fittings and practice on a few of them to get the hang
of it rather than continuing to practice on your end project.

--

On Jul 22, 5:50 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. ...

Read this and several replies and your responses --

First question I have is "brass"??? You sure or you mean copper which
would be far more normal ordinary plumbing fittings.


I'm sure you're right. It's got to be copper.

After you get past that, what are you using for flux and solder?


I'm using Oatey silver lead-free solder and Oatey H-20 water soluble
flux.

And, finally, heat source? A 1" pipe takes a pretty decent-sized flame
to heat adequately quickly.


Just a simple propane torch.

As for technique, heat the fittings, not the pipe and definitely not the
solder. Hot enough is when the solder melts on touch to the joint. If
it doesn't flow easily you've either got incompatible solder for the
material, flux, or both.

If you are new at this, I'd also suggest buying a couple feet of regular
1/2" Cu and a few fittings and practice on a few of them to get the hang
of it rather than continuing to practice on your end project.

--

I definitely need the practice. Unfortunately, at this rate I'm pretty
sure I'm not saving any money by doing it myself. I should have just
paid for a real plumber to do this from the beginning. But now I've
spent nearly $80 in supplies. I might as well try to finish the job.

If I did it wrong and I have an unfinished solder joint, can I pick up
again to finish it, or do you think I'll just need to cut away that
section and start over with a new coupling?

Thanks!

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 22, 5:30 pm, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:
The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a
shade
of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the
solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all
the
way around the fitting.

It think it doesn't help that I'm using propane. From what I've heard
today, propane isn't as hot as acetylene or MAPP. Maybe I'll try again
and let it get even hotter. I'm going to end up going through a whole
bottle of propane on two couplings! This is ridiculous... I know I'm
not a handy man, but this can't be that hard! Those videos made it
look so easy.


That's why plumbers get paid so much - it isn't easy. I have heard a lot of
people speak ill of propane, I don't necessarily believe that. I think MAPP
just makes it go quicker.

Also, don't apply the heat to the actual joint, apply it to both sides of
the joint, keep moving the torch from one spot to the other and for 1" pipe
be sure to cover all around the joint, that is a large joint and it will
soak up a lot of heat.

Rather than try to do a complete joint, why don't you tin the brass pipe.
The brass metal seems to be the problem, so work on this by itself by
heating and applying solder to the brass pipe by itself so you can see what
is happening and without the joint there will be less metal to drain the
heat away. When you get it coated in solder take a cloth and wipe the excess
melted solder off the pipe so you can slip the coupling on over it, it will
go much smoother if you do this.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 22, 5:30 pm, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:
The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a
shade
of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the
solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all
the
way around the fitting.

It think it doesn't help that I'm using propane. From what I've heard
today, propane isn't as hot as acetylene or MAPP. Maybe I'll try again
and let it get even hotter. I'm going to end up going through a whole
bottle of propane on two couplings! This is ridiculous... I know I'm
not a handy man, but this can't be that hard! Those videos made it
look so easy.

On Jul 22, 6:09 pm, "EXT" wrote:
Also, don't apply the heat to the actual joint, apply it to both sides of
the joint, keep moving the torch from one spot to the other and for 1" pipe
be sure to cover all around the joint, that is a large joint and it will
soak up a lot of heat.

Rather than try to do a complete joint, why don't you tin the brass pipe.
The brass metal seems to be the problem, so work on this by itself by
heating and applying solder to the brass pipe by itself so you can see what
is happening and without the joint there will be less metal to drain the
heat away. When you get it coated in solder take a cloth and wipe the excess
melted solder off the pipe so you can slip the coupling on over it, it will
go much smoother if you do this.

That's an interesting approach. I might give that a try. As someone
else pointed out, though, this is almost certainly copper pipe and
fittings. I don't know why I kept saying brass earlier. This is just a
one-inch water line to a sprinkler system. I think that would be an
odd use for brass, wouldn't it? The fact that I don't know with 100%
certainty probably shows that I shouldn't be attempting this. However,
that's one of the reasons my ex-wife left me. I know I'm not much
of handyman, but I'm trying to learn.

You don't need to cut away the section. It does have to be cleaned with
emory cloth. The pipe couplings have to be equally clean. Don't use water
soluble flux. Don't heat the solder, heat the joint. Keep the torch moving.
One inch copper with propane is tough. Good luck.

Ah...I am using Oatey H-20 water soluble flux. Should I make another
(fourth) trip to Home Depot and get some different flux?

Maybe a neighbor has some different flux. I may also need to borrow a
different torch. I've tried two propane torches (first one kept going
out). Maybe a MAPP or acetylene torch would work better, especially on
one-inch pipe outside in a breeze. Damn wind.

wrote:
On Jul 22, 5:50 pm, dpb wrote:
wrote:
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. ...
Read this and several replies and your responses --

First question I have is "brass"??? You sure or you mean copper which
would be far more normal ordinary plumbing fittings.


I'm sure you're right. It's got to be copper.

After you get past that, what are you using for flux and solder?


I'm using Oatey silver lead-free solder and Oatey H-20 water soluble
flux.

And, finally, heat source? A 1" pipe takes a pretty decent-sized flame
to heat adequately quickly.


Just a simple propane torch.

As for technique, heat the fittings, not the pipe and definitely not the
solder. Hot enough is when the solder melts on touch to the joint. If
it doesn't flow easily you've either got incompatible solder for the
material, flux, or both.

If you are new at this, I'd also suggest buying a couple feet of regular
1/2" Cu and a few fittings and practice on a few of them to get the hang
of it rather than continuing to practice on your end project.

I definitely need the practice. Unfortunately, at this rate I'm pretty
sure I'm not saving any money by doing it myself. I should have just
paid for a real plumber to do this from the beginning. But now I've
spent nearly $80 in supplies. I might as well try to finish the job.

If I did it wrong and I have an unfinished solder joint, can I pick up
again to finish it, or do you think I'll just need to cut away that
section and start over with a new coupling?


Silver solder is _much_ higher melting temperature than normal tin
solders and is typically only commonly used for HVAC purposes where the
higher pressure requirements require it. To successfully use it w/ 1"
copper will take at least a MAAP gas torch.

That, and as someone else noted, the water-soluble flux isn't what I
would normally use, but make sure it's compatible w/ the particular
solder you're using.

Again, a few extra bucks for some smaller copper pieces to practice on
is a worthwhile investment at this point if you're going to try to
finish your project yourself. And, it definitely is a worthwhile
facility to learn.

As for fixing up your disaster so far, if you can get it cleaned up
neatly, you can use it. But, the silver solder is an issue if you've
got some of it in the areas that needs cleanup because the two types
won't be miscible nor melt at the same temperature so getting a good
joint may be a problem.

--

On Jul 22, 6:19 pm, "
wrote:
You don't need to cut away the section. It does have to be cleaned with
emory cloth. The pipe couplings have to be equally clean. Don't use water
soluble flux. Don't heat the solder, heat the joint. Keep the torch moving.
One inch copper with propane is tough. Good luck.

Ah...I am using Oatey H-20 water soluble flux. Should I make another
(fourth) trip to Home Depot and get some different flux?

Maybe a neighbor has some different flux. I may also need to borrow a
different torch. I've tried two propane torches (first one kept going
out). Maybe a MAPP or acetylene torch would work better, especially on
one-inch pipe outside in a breeze. Damn wind.

I'm about to just say "Screw it" and go buy some JB Weld. Would that
work? ;-)

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php

Like I said before, go to this forum, search for the thread on sweat
joints. Read the pro's recommendations and follow through.


Thanks! There's lots of great info on that forum. I think I have
multiple problems. I don't think I got the joints clean enough,
although I tried. I think I apparently used the wrong type of flux. I
also had flux outside of the joint and I just now read that there
shouldn't be any flux outside of the joint. Then, I think I also had
temperature issues, either trying when it was too hot or when it
wasn't hot enough. Then I followed someone else's advice to actually
apply heat to the solder. That apparently is wrong because it can
oxidize the solder and cause it not to flow properly. I think that
explains some of the weird behavior of the solder that I was seeing.

This project is deceptively difficult. It's much harder than it
looks!

Thanks!

Silver solder is _much_ higher melting temperature than normal tin
solders and is typically only commonly used for HVAC purposes where the
higher pressure requirements require it. To successfully use it w/ 1"
copper will take at least a MAAP gas torch.

That, and as someone else noted, the water-soluble flux isn't what I
would normally use, but make sure it's compatible w/ the particular
solder you're using.

Again, a few extra bucks for some smaller copper pieces to practice on
is a worthwhile investment at this point if you're going to try to
finish your project yourself. And, it definitely is a worthwhile
facility to learn.

As for fixing up your disaster so far, if you can get it cleaned up
neatly, you can use it. But, the silver solder is an issue if you've
got some of it in the areas that needs cleanup because the two types
won't be miscible nor melt at the same temperature so getting a good
joint may be a problem.

It definitely sounds like I need to get some different solder and
flux. I've got the wrong tools for the job. After spending $30 on a
propane torch, I'm not going to spend another $50 on a MAPP torch, but
I will try to get some tin solder and non-water-soluble flux that is
compatible with the solder. If that doesn't work then I'm just going
to hire a pro to do it.

Thanks! I've definitely learned a lot. I probably should have stopped
by here before I attempted this project. But then I might not have
appreciated or understood the advice as well if I hadn't failed first.

I just did a bit more reading on that forum and see that others have
had a horrible time with the water-soluble flux, as well. They
recommended Oatey #95, whatever that is. Is that something that Home
Depot would carry? If so, what flux should I get?

Thanks!

In article . com, " wrote:
I'm using Oatey silver lead-free solder and Oatey H-20 water soluble
flux.

That's most of your problem. Forget the silver solder. That stuff is a
pain in the butt; the melting temperature is much too high, especially for
someone who's never done this before. Forget the water-soluble flux, too.

Get some regular lead-free solder, not the silver stuff. Then look for Oatey
No. 95 Lead Free Tinning Flux, or Harvey's Soldering Paste.

Clean the pipe and the fittings with emory cloth or sandpaper. Make sure the
pipe is clean a half-inch beyond the fitting. Flux both the inside of the
fitting and the outside of the pipe.

Light up your torch, and heat the fitting ONLY. DO NOT heat the pipe. There's
enough contact between the two that the pipe will get hot enough anyway. What
you want to avoid is heating the pipe up enough that it expands into the
fitting and prevents solder from wicking into the joint. Instead, you want to
expand the fitting away from the pipe a bit, to make it easier for the solder
to get in there. Again, DON'T HEAT THE PIPE. Just the fitting. After about
twenty seconds, touch the solder to the seam between pipe and fitting, on the
side away from the torch. If the solder doesn't melt into the seam
immediately, withdraw it and continue heating. Try again another five or ten
seconds later; repeat as needed until the solder flows readily into the joint.


Just a simple propane torch.

That'll work for 1" pipe -- it just takes longer. MAPP works better.

By the way, the "4 to 5 seconds" you said you saw on some web site is surely
for a MAPP torch on 1/2" pipe. No way in the world are you going to get a 1"
pipe hot enough to solder in four seconds even with MAPP, let alone propane.

I definitely need the practice. Unfortunately, at this rate I'm pretty
sure I'm not saving any money by doing it myself. I should have just
paid for a real plumber to do this from the beginning. But now I've
spent nearly $80 in supplies. I might as well try to finish the job.

You're well off to heed dpb's advice to get some 1/2 pipe and fittings, and
practice. You're looking at maybe another ten bucks in materials. Follow the
procedure I described above, and you'll have the hang of it in half an hour.
And then you'll have acquired a new skill. It's really not as hard as some
folks would have you believe. I think your biggest problem here is using the
wrong materials.

If I did it wrong and I have an unfinished solder joint, can I pick up
again to finish it, or do you think I'll just need to cut away that
section and start over with a new coupling?

You should be able to continue with that joint, if you clean it thoroughly
first.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article s.com, "EXT" wrote:
Also, don't apply the heat to the actual joint, apply it to both sides of
the joint,

Incorrect. Apply heat to the fitting only. Not to the joint, not to the pipe.
Just to the fitting. The pipe will get plenty hot enough anyway.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

If I did it wrong and I have an unfinished solder joint, can I pick up
again to finish it, or do you think I'll just need to cut away that
section and start over with a new coupling?

You should be able to continue with that joint, if you clean it thoroughly
first.

Well, in this case, I have a very crappy solder joint that goes about
80% of the way around the fitting. I wasn't able to get the solder to
stick to that remaining 20%. I think that's because of the things
we've already mentioned: wrong materials, lack of experience. Maybe I
should just heat up that joint and pull the pipe out of it, then find
some way to get all that old solder off and start over. If I can't do
that, I'm going to have to cut the pipe against and start completely
over from scratch. I may end up doing that anyway because I suspect
that joint I was talking about would fail completely pretty soon. I
don't think the solder wicked down into the fitting.

Thanks!
John

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 22, 5:30 pm, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:
The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a
shade
of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the
solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all
the
way around the fitting.

It think it doesn't help that I'm using propane. From what I've heard
today, propane isn't as hot as acetylene or MAPP. Maybe I'll try again
and let it get even hotter. I'm going to end up going through a whole
bottle of propane on two couplings! This is ridiculous... I know I'm
not a handy man, but this can't be that hard! Those videos made it
look so easy.

Get a scrap piece of copper pipe and a few cheap fittings and do some
practice joints.

- Make sure the copper is clean
- Make sure you coat the joint in flux
- Start with the bottom joint... Heat goes up and it will make the upper
joint go faster. Also, you have less chance of using too much solder when
the solder has to flow upwards.
- The flux is there to clean the metal and has NOTHING to do with the solder
itself. It doesn't matter how much the flux bubbles. You want the METAL hot
enough to melt solder QUICKLY.
- Heat the joint, all the way around. You want the pipe AND fitting hot
enough to melt the solder WITHOUT any help from the torch.
- When you think it's hot enough, take the flame away and put the solder
against the seam of the joint, the solder should liquify quickly and suck
into the joint.

wrote:
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php

Like I said before, go to this forum, search for the thread on sweat
joints. Read the pro's recommendations and follow through.



Thanks! There's lots of great info on that forum. I think I have
multiple problems. I don't think I got the joints clean enough,
although I tried. I think I apparently used the wrong type of flux. I
also had flux outside of the joint and I just now read that there
shouldn't be any flux outside of the joint. Then, I think I also had
temperature issues, either trying when it was too hot or when it
wasn't hot enough. Then I followed someone else's advice to actually
apply heat to the solder. That apparently is wrong because it can
oxidize the solder and cause it not to flow properly. I think that
explains some of the weird behavior of the solder that I was seeing.

This project is deceptively difficult. It's much harder than it
looks!


So is playing a violin. G

Ah feel your pain, and as others have said, i" copper pipe OUTSIDE in a
breeze with a "standard" sized Bernz-O-Matic propane torch ain't going
to be a piece of cake, it's too difficult to get the whole fitting
heated up to the right temperature, particularly if you can't hit the
fitting from all sides with the torch because of obstructions.

I've got a "large" sized Bernz-O-Matic torch head with a burner about
1-1/4" diameter which fits a standard propane can but puts out a lot
more heat, I've done 1" copper with it nos sweat. (pun intentional. G)

Also, the current "health safe" lead free solders have a higher melting
temperature than to good olde tin-lead solders I grew up with. You may
have better luck if you get some "60-40" solder, it's still sold, and
for use on a sprinkler system the lead certainly won't be poisoning anyone.

If all else fails, why not just pick up some compression fittings and if
you need it a short length of "extra" 1" copper pipe.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

On Jul 22, 7:19 pm, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
wrote:
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php

Like I said before, go to this forum, search for the thread on sweat
joints. Read the pro's recommendations and follow through.

Thanks! There's lots of great info on that forum. I think I have
multiple problems. I don't think I got the joints clean enough,
although I tried. I think I apparently used the wrong type of flux. I
also had flux outside of the joint and I just now read that there
shouldn't be any flux outside of the joint. Then, I think I also had
temperature issues, either trying when it was too hot or when it
wasn't hot enough. Then I followed someone else's advice to actually
apply heat to the solder. That apparently is wrong because it can
oxidize the solder and cause it not to flow properly. I think that
explains some of the weird behavior of the solder that I was seeing.

This project is deceptively difficult. It's much harder than it
looks!

So is playing a violin. G

Ah feel your pain, and as others have said, i" copper pipe OUTSIDE in a
breeze with a "standard" sized Bernz-O-Matic propane torch ain't going
to be a piece of cake, it's too difficult to get the whole fitting
heated up to the right temperature, particularly if you can't hit the
fitting from all sides with the torch because of obstructions.

I've got a "large" sized Bernz-O-Matic torch head with a burner about
1-1/4" diameter which fits a standard propane can but puts out a lot
more heat, I've done 1" copper with it nos sweat. (pun intentional. G)

Also, the current "health safe" lead free solders have a higher melting
temperature than to good olde tin-lead solders I grew up with. You may
have better luck if you get some "60-40" solder, it's still sold, and
for use on a sprinkler system the lead certainly won't be poisoning anyone.

If all else fails, why not just pick up some compression fittings and if
you need it a short length of "extra" 1" copper pipe.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

A compression fitting wouldn't work. The piece I'm trying to repair is
just a straight piece of pipe that originally had a one-inch coupling
soldered in the middle of it. The solder joint broke because of the
ground moving over the winter. It doesn't look like it was a good
joint to begin with, though.

wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:19 pm, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

wrote:

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php

Like I said before, go to this forum, search for the thread on sweat
joints. Read the pro's recommendations and follow through.

Thanks! There's lots of great info on that forum. I think I have
multiple problems. I don't think I got the joints clean enough,
although I tried. I think I apparently used the wrong type of flux. I
also had flux outside of the joint and I just now read that there
shouldn't be any flux outside of the joint. Then, I think I also had
temperature issues, either trying when it was too hot or when it
wasn't hot enough. Then I followed someone else's advice to actually
apply heat to the solder. That apparently is wrong because it can
oxidize the solder and cause it not to flow properly. I think that
explains some of the weird behavior of the solder that I was seeing.

This project is deceptively difficult. It's much harder than it
looks!

So is playing a violin. G

Ah feel your pain, and as others have said, i" copper pipe OUTSIDE in a
breeze with a "standard" sized Bernz-O-Matic propane torch ain't going
to be a piece of cake, it's too difficult to get the whole fitting
heated up to the right temperature, particularly if you can't hit the
fitting from all sides with the torch because of obstructions.

I've got a "large" sized Bernz-O-Matic torch head with a burner about
1-1/4" diameter which fits a standard propane can but puts out a lot
more heat, I've done 1" copper with it nos sweat. (pun intentional. G)

Also, the current "health safe" lead free solders have a higher melting
temperature than to good olde tin-lead solders I grew up with. You may
have better luck if you get some "60-40" solder, it's still sold, and
for use on a sprinkler system the lead certainly won't be poisoning anyone.

If all else fails, why not just pick up some compression fittings and if
you need it a short length of "extra" 1" copper pipe.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.


A compression fitting wouldn't work. The piece I'm trying to repair is
just a straight piece of pipe that originally had a one-inch coupling
soldered in the middle of it. The solder joint broke because of the
ground moving over the winter. It doesn't look like it was a good
joint to begin with, though.


Is there some reason you can't use TWO compression couplers with maybe a
6" long piece of 1" copper pipe between them? you could cut back the
currently buggered up ends of the existing pipe and put the new stuff in.

Thas why I worded my last sentence as I did.

Good Luck,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

wrote:

On Jul 22, 7:19 pm, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

wrote:

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php

Like I said before, go to this forum, search for the thread on sweat
joints. Read the pro's recommendations and follow through.

Thanks! There's lots of great info on that forum. I think I have
multiple problems. I don't think I got the joints clean enough,
although I tried. I think I apparently used the wrong type of flux. I
also had flux outside of the joint and I just now read that there
shouldn't be any flux outside of the joint. Then, I think I also had
temperature issues, either trying when it was too hot or when it
wasn't hot enough. Then I followed someone else's advice to actually
apply heat to the solder. That apparently is wrong because it can
oxidize the solder and cause it not to flow properly. I think that
explains some of the weird behavior of the solder that I was seeing.

This project is deceptively difficult. It's much harder than it
looks!

So is playing a violin. G

Ah feel your pain, and as others have said, i" copper pipe OUTSIDE in a
breeze with a "standard" sized Bernz-O-Matic propane torch ain't going
to be a piece of cake, it's too difficult to get the whole fitting
heated up to the right temperature, particularly if you can't hit the
fitting from all sides with the torch because of obstructions.

I've got a "large" sized Bernz-O-Matic torch head with a burner about
1-1/4" diameter which fits a standard propane can but puts out a lot
more heat, I've done 1" copper with it nos sweat. (pun intentional. G)

Also, the current "health safe" lead free solders have a higher melting
temperature than to good olde tin-lead solders I grew up with. You may
have better luck if you get some "60-40" solder, it's still sold, and
for use on a sprinkler system the lead certainly won't be poisoning anyone.

If all else fails, why not just pick up some compression fittings and if
you need it a short length of "extra" 1" copper pipe.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.


A compression fitting wouldn't work. The piece I'm trying to repair is
just a straight piece of pipe that originally had a one-inch coupling
soldered in the middle of it. The solder joint broke because of the
ground moving over the winter. It doesn't look like it was a good
joint to begin with, though.



This is the kind of coupling I was thinking about. I'd be suprised if
you couldn't get by with just ONE of them.

http://tinyurl.com/2lpmrp

Am I missing something?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

In article %8Toi.138557$NV3.75040@pd7urf2no, "Noozer" wrote:

- Start with the bottom joint... Heat goes up and it will make the upper
joint go faster.

Makes no difference when soldering. Heated *fluids* rise; in a solid, heat is
conducted in all directions equally.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

" wrote in
oups.com:

On Jul 22, 6:19 pm, "
wrote:
You don't need to cut away the section. It does have to be cleaned
with emory cloth. The pipe couplings have to be equally clean.
Don't use water soluble flux. Don't heat the solder, heat the
joint. Keep the torch moving. One inch copper with propane is
tough. Good luck.

Ah...I am using Oatey H-20 water soluble flux. Should I make another
(fourth) trip to Home Depot and get some different flux?

Maybe a neighbor has some different flux. I may also need to borrow a
different torch. I've tried two propane torches (first one kept going
out). Maybe a MAPP or acetylene torch would work better, especially
on one-inch pipe outside in a breeze. Damn wind.

I'm about to just say "Screw it" and go buy some JB Weld. Would that
work? ;-)




Duct Tape...

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:37:59 -0000, "
wrote:

On Jul 22, 5:30 pm, "Scott Townsend"
wrote:
The fitting when headed will change colors. I usually wait till its a shade
of black, then it will kind of turn a light color again. Then apply the
solder... IT takes way more then 10 seconds to get the heat applied all the
way around the fitting.

It think it doesn't help that I'm using propane. From what I've heard
today, propane isn't as hot as acetylene or MAPP. Maybe I'll try again
and let it get even hotter. I'm going to end up going through a whole
bottle of propane on two couplings! This is ridiculous... I know I'm
not a handy man, but this can't be that hard! Those videos made it
look so easy.

I had the same experience. I bought a bag of copper fittings and
pipe and 3 kinds of flux and 2 kinds of solder and then experimented.

The white paste flux worked for me, but the clear liquid flux didn't.
The cheaper solder worked better than the expensive high silver
solder.

The mapp gas worked much better than propane and was twice as quick at
heating the joint before the flux was cooked off.

I found that cherry red was too hot but a dull glow was just right.

I also was able to braze with the mapp gas, but that was cherry red.

practice practice practice.

In article , valvejob wrote:

I found that cherry red was too hot but a dull glow was just right.

A dull glow is still *much* hotter than necessary.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , valvejob
wrote:

I found that cherry red was too hot but a dull glow was just right.

A dull glow is still *much* hotter than necessary.

--
Regards,

Maybe valvejob thinks the op is trying to weld the pipes together?

Cherry red is far beyond what you need

On Jul 22, 9:28 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

. net...

In article , valvejob
wrote:

I found that cherry red was too hot but a dull glow was just right.

A dull glow is still *much* hotter than necessary.

--
Regards,

Maybe valvejob thinks the op is trying to weld the pipes together?

Cherry red is far beyond what you need

Hey, whatever works! lol

I'm going to go to the store tomorrow and get some better solder and
flux. Then I'm going to completely cut out the section that I've done
since the workmanship is so shoddy it will probably fail in the near
future. I might get a few extra parts to practice on, but I'm fairly
confident that I'll have rather different results with solder and flux
that is better suited to the task.

Thanks!

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 22, 9:28 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message

. net...

In article , valvejob
wrote:

I found that cherry red was too hot but a dull glow was just right.

A dull glow is still *much* hotter than necessary.

--
Regards,

Maybe valvejob thinks the op is trying to weld the pipes together?

Cherry red is far beyond what you need

Hey, whatever works! lol

I'm going to go to the store tomorrow and get some better solder and
flux. Then I'm going to completely cut out the section that I've done
since the workmanship is so shoddy it will probably fail in the near
future. I might get a few extra parts to practice on, but I'm fairly
confident that I'll have rather different results with solder and flux
that is better suited to the task.

Thanks!


Don't get too excited. It's partly your equipment, but really it boils down
to practice practice practice. I think I spent about 20 bucks on 1/2"
copper pipe and fittings then stood in the garage and soldered. Almost
caught my Workmate on fire 3 times, almost dripped solder on my hand (I've
dripped molten plastic on my arm before - it will burn a hole in your
flesh), and out of the 15 or 20 attempts I had 2 successful joints. You had
the videos, which I think will make it easier for you. I didn't have the
luxury when I started learning. If you can do 5 good joints in a row - then
I'd start to work on the real thing.
BTW: Don't forget to practice on 1" pipe if you can.

In article om,
says...
I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings.

1" pipe is too large for many household propane torches.

What sort of torch are you using? Does the flux get hot enough to make
the surface of the pipe visibly deoxidized?

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

On Jul 23, 10:04 am, wrote:
In article om,
says...

I'm a total newbie at this stuff, but it shouldn't be this freaking
hard. All I'm trying to do is a simple repair on a 1" brass pipe. I've
cut away a section of the old pipe and I've got the new section ready
along with two 1" coupler fittings.

1" pipe is too large for many household propane torches.

What sort of torch are you using? Does the flux get hot enough to make
the surface of the pipe visibly deoxidized?

I was using a propane torch, but today I went to the store and bought
some non-silver solder and a MAPP torch. I also got some great advice
from the guy I bought the stuff from. He lightly scolded me for not
asking them how to do it first! He says (and I believe him) that he
could have saved me a lot of money and time. I certainly would have at
least had the right materials for the job if I had asked him first.

I'm about to go out and try this again. I'll let you all know how it
turns out.

Thanks!
John