Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old April 27th 04, 05:49 PM
Grant Erwin
 
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Default soldering to brass

I want to make a flat piece of brass with a ring soldered to it so it
can fit onto a keyring. I am lousy at soldering. Can anyone tell me exactly
what kind of solder to use, flux, and what to look out for? I'm looking for
a clean joint that isn't obtrusive looking, so bright silver solder is out.
I have considered machining a ring integral with the part but that means
the ring would be brass like the flat piece and it seems to me that brass
wouldn't hold up too well on a keyring. The flat piece will be approximately
1.75" roundish, not too heavy, and about 0.100" thick, old propeller shafting
from a sailboat. Might be phosphor bronze or manganese bronze and not brass,
I'm not sure.

Grant Erwin


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Old April 27th 04, 06:39 PM
Leo Lichtman
 
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Default soldering to brass


"Grant Erwin" wrote: (clip) I'm looking for a
clean joint that isn't obtrusive looking, so bright silver solder is out.
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jewelers use solders which match various shades of gold. Since you say you
are "lousy" at soldering, you could probably get it done for you by a
jeweler, maybe for less than the cost of a length of the appropriate solder.
The ability to make a solder joint that does not "stick out" depends not
only on a color match, but on a minimum amount of solder, cleanly flowed
into the joint, and nowhere else. This requires the right technique and
torch.


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Old April 27th 04, 06:52 PM
Richard J Kinch
 
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Default soldering to brass

Grant Erwin writes:

I have considered machining a ring integral with the part but that means
the ring would be brass like the flat piece and it seems to me that brass
wouldn't hold up too well on a keyring.


Brass keys seem to do fine.

Can't just put a hole in your piece? Maybe with a loose link?
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Old April 27th 04, 07:03 PM
Bob Engelhardt
 
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Default soldering to brass

Since this is RCM, I will answer the question that you didn't ask. That
is "How can I fasten a flat piece of brass to a key ring?". The answer
is drill a hole in it for the key ring to pass through. Bob
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Old April 27th 04, 07:23 PM
Charles A. Sherwood
 
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Default soldering to brass

I want to make a flat piece of brass with a ring soldered to it so it
can fit onto a keyring. I am lousy at soldering. Can anyone tell me exactly


Since your piece of brass is about .1 thick, I suggest drilling two
small holes in the edge. Make a loop from some wire of your choice
and stick the ends in the two holes. Solder with any kind of soft
solder. File off the excess solder and you will barely notice the
silver colored solder.

chuck


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Old April 27th 04, 08:19 PM
Boris Beizer
 
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Default soldering to brass


"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

Jewelers use solders which match various shades of gold. Since you say

you
are "lousy" at soldering, you could probably get it done for you by a
jeweler, maybe for less than the cost of a length of the appropriate

solder.

The solders used by jewelers for soldering gold are mostly gold. E.g.,
14karat or 10karat. You use yellow gold solder for yellow gold, white gold
solder for white gold, pink gold solder for pink gold, etc. These solders
will not work for brass because the melting temperature is too high. Also,
they are torch soldered, which is dicey for brass.

Boris

--

-------------------------------------
Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting
1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance

TEL: 215-572-5580
FAX: 215-886-0144
Email bsquare "at" sprintmail.com

------------------------------------------


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Old April 27th 04, 08:19 PM
Boris Beizer
 
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Default soldering to brass

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I want to make a flat piece of brass with a ring soldered to it so it
can fit onto a keyring. I am lousy at soldering. Can anyone tell me

exactly
what kind of solder to use, flux, and what to look out for? I'm looking

for
a clean joint that isn't obtrusive looking, so bright silver solder is

out.
I have considered machining a ring integral with the part but that means
the ring would be brass like the flat piece and it seems to me that brass
wouldn't hold up too well on a keyring. The flat piece will be

approximately
1.75" roundish, not too heavy, and about 0.100" thick, old propeller

shafting
from a sailboat. Might be phosphor bronze or manganese bronze and not

brass,
I'm not sure.


A thin ring, soldered edge on to a relatively thin disk is a stress point,
no matter what solder you use -- and it will not hold up well on a keyring.
As someone else suggested in another reply, better off trying to improve the
mechanical joint and strength. I would drill two small holes into the edge
of the piece -- e.g., 0.02, to match the wire you ar using for the loop.
As always, very clean is mandatory. You can use low temperature
silver solder with a torch or high temperature tin-based solder with a
soldering iron. I prefer silver solder with a torch. If the match of the
wire to the hole is good, and the area very clean, then you will use very
little solder -- e.g., a piece about 1mm on a side should do for each joint.
The silver solder has a yellowish tinge and once soldered, the joint is
almost invisible. A little cleanup with emery or a rubber abrasive wheel
will make it invisible. Use a very fine torch tip -- really fine -- and
remember that you don't heat the solder, but the place to which you want the
solder to flow.
I do it all the time with the fittings I make for my ship models.
You can't see the joint if you do it right.

Boris

--

-------------------------------------
Boris Beizer Ph.D. Seminars and Consulting
1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance

TEL: 215-572-5580
FAX: 215-886-0144
Email bsquare "at" sprintmail.com

------------------------------------------


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Old April 27th 04, 11:28 PM
Harold & Susan Vordos
 
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Default soldering to brass


"Boris Beizer" wrote in message
ink.net...

snip-------

I prefer silver solder with a torch. If the match of the
wire to the hole is good, and the area very clean, then you will use very
little solder -- e.g., a piece about 1mm on a side should do for each

joint.
The silver solder has a yellowish tinge and once soldered, the joint is
almost invisible. A little cleanup with emery or a rubber abrasive wheel
will make it invisible. Use a very fine torch tip -- really fine -- and
remember that you don't heat the solder, but the place to which you want

the
solder to flow.
I do it all the time with the fittings I make for my ship models.
You can't see the joint if you do it right.

Boris


What Boris said. *Exactly* what Boris said. Silver solder, "real" silver
solder, is almost identical in appearance to yellow brass. A properly
fitted joint that has been soldered in keeping with good practice would be
strong, and have a nice corner radius if you use the appropriate amount of
solder. That's the nature of silver solder. The only concern will be that
heating the brass hot enough to solder it will anneal it.

Do not confuse solders with 5% or so silver content with silver solder.
The only thing they have in common is the fact that silver is mentioned in
the names of each one.

Grant, if you need a small amount of silver solder, send my your address on
the side and I'll put a little in the mail to you. You'll need some flux
for silver solder, which is available at welding supply stores.

Harold


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Old April 28th 04, 01:17 AM
Rich McCarty
 
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Default soldering to brass


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

What Boris said. *Exactly* what Boris said. Silver solder, "real"

silver
solder, is almost identical in appearance to yellow brass.


Really? The silver solder I've used for sterling silver is, well, silver
colored. It's available in soft, medium and hard from the precious metal
dealer. The 'hardness' refers to the melting point and thus the silver
content. The color match is nearly perfect when soldering sterling with hard
solder.

I believe that one would need to make an old fashioned brass spelter to get
a decent color match. That's obviously unnecessary as previous posters said
a tight fitting joint and very little solder will make excellent joints.
Silver solder is not intended to fill large gaps anyway...


Do not confuse solders with 5% or so silver content with silver solder.
The only thing they have in common is the fact that silver is mentioned in
the names of each one.


I believe that's called 'silver bearing solder'. It can be really important
not to get solders with lead and real silver solder not mixed up. Another
tragic case of language not being useful enough for technical purposes -
isn't silver soldering actually brazing because of some special property of
silver?. Anyway, if you heat a silver piece thats got lead solder on it up
to silver soldering temp, the lead will burn pits in the silver.


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Old April 28th 04, 02:05 AM
Harold & Susan Vordos
 
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Default soldering to brass


"Rich McCarty" wrote in message
link.net...

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

What Boris said. *Exactly* what Boris said. Silver solder, "real"

silver
solder, is almost identical in appearance to yellow brass.


Really? The silver solder I've used for sterling silver is, well, silver
colored. It's available in soft, medium and hard from the precious metal
dealer. The 'hardness' refers to the melting point and thus the silver
content. The color match is nearly perfect when soldering sterling with

hard
solder.


You got me there! What you use is, in a sense, silver solder. What it
really is is solder for silver.

OK, lets talk about this in a slightly different light. In industry,
there is a solder that is called "silver solder". It is a solder
comprised of silver and copper, generally with some sacrificial element,
often cadmium. It has a color similar to brass. The alloy varies, but
it runs in the area of 50% silver. It is not solder for silver. There's
a huge difference. Most people associated with the machine industry
understand what silver solder is.

I believe that one would need to make an old fashioned brass spelter to

get
a decent color match. That's obviously unnecessary as previous posters

said
a tight fitting joint and very little solder will make excellent joints.
Silver solder is not intended to fill large gaps anyway...


Right. Silver solder is not a filler material, and is most effective when
there is a proper fitting of the components.

There is no need to make any kind of spelter, silver solder will perform
exactly as indicated. Silver solder. Not solder for silver.


Do not confuse solders with 5% or so silver content with silver solder.
The only thing they have in common is the fact that silver is mentioned

in
the names of each one.


I believe that's called 'silver bearing solder'. It can be really

important
not to get solders with lead and real silver solder not mixed up. Another
tragic case of language not being useful enough for technical purposes -
isn't silver soldering actually brazing because of some special property

of
silver?. Anyway, if you heat a silver piece thats got lead solder on it up
to silver soldering temp, the lead will burn pits in the silver.


I'm not sure exactly what constitutes brazing as opposed to soldering, for
in each case the base metal is not melted, but the soldering medium is. I
get the idea that the main difference is that in brazing one can effectively
build up an area with the brazing material, whereas in soldering it is to
be discouraged, and works poorly when attempted. Where's Ernie when we
need him? g

The qualities of lead you described are exactly why one should never uses
lead with precious metals. The solvent qualities are apparent even al low
temperatures. Platinum, for example, melts at over 3,000 degrees F, but
dissolves in molten lead. It is lead's solvent quality that makes it so
useful when assaying. It is introduced to the heat in the way of
litharge, along with the appropriate fluxes for the assay in question.
The lead that is reduced from the litharge dissolves traces of precious
metals and concentrates them in the lead so they can be recovered. The
lead is once again reduced to litharge in the cupelling process, leaving
behind a button comprised of the values.

Harold




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