Two bathroom questions:

1) Is it ok from a code perspective to have a GFCI outlet INSIDE a
medicine cabinet?
The cabinet is NOT recessed, and Ive removed the back.
So basically we are placing the cabinet, opened at the back, over the
finished (drywalled) wall/GFCI.
All other outlets (well the only other one) in the bathroom are
downstream from this GFCI.

2) We have an old house. The entire upstairs (2 bedrooms, 1 bath) was
on a single, ungrounded circuit (with this ugly cotten (i think)
sheathing, which is basically falling off the wire - ug)
We are ONLY redoing the washroom (at this point).
The plan is run a cable up through the wall from the main panel
downstairs and add a small subpanel (2 breaker) with a kill-switch (or
whatever you call it) in the bathroom. This sub-panel will be located
in a small closet.
The expectation is that if/when we re-do the bedrooms, we now have an
avalible circuit for them easily.
My guess would be this panel can't be in a closet. I'll check this
with the code book, but thought I'd ask here to get peoples opinions.
Any other major gotchas you see with doing this?

Thanks!

It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it would
meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code, you may
need an outlet outside the cabinet as well. Your panel can't be in a closet
other than one designated for electrical equipment. Just hang it in a
hallway




wrote in message
oups.com...
Two bathroom questions:

1) Is it ok from a code perspective to have a GFCI outlet INSIDE a
medicine cabinet?
The cabinet is NOT recessed, and Ive removed the back.
So basically we are placing the cabinet, opened at the back, over the
finished (drywalled) wall/GFCI.
All other outlets (well the only other one) in the bathroom are
downstream from this GFCI.

2) We have an old house. The entire upstairs (2 bedrooms, 1 bath) was
on a single, ungrounded circuit (with this ugly cotten (i think)
sheathing, which is basically falling off the wire - ug)
We are ONLY redoing the washroom (at this point).
The plan is run a cable up through the wall from the main panel
downstairs and add a small subpanel (2 breaker) with a kill-switch (or
whatever you call it) in the bathroom. This sub-panel will be located
in a small closet.
The expectation is that if/when we re-do the bedrooms, we now have an
avalible circuit for them easily.
My guess would be this panel can't be in a closet. I'll check this
with the code book, but thought I'd ask here to get peoples opinions.
Any other major gotchas you see with doing this?

Thanks!

On Mar 20, 4:18 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it would
meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code, you may
need an outlet outside the cabinet as well. Your panel can't be in a closet
other than one designated for electrical equipment. Just hang it in a
hallway

wrote in message

oups.com...



Two bathroom questions:

1) Is it ok from a code perspective to have a GFCI outlet INSIDE a
medicine cabinet?
The cabinet is NOT recessed, and Ive removed the back.
So basically we are placing the cabinet, opened at the back, over the
finished (drywalled) wall/GFCI.
All other outlets (well the only other one) in the bathroom are
downstream from this GFCI.

2) We have an old house. The entire upstairs (2 bedrooms, 1 bath) was
on a single, ungrounded circuit (with this ugly cotten (i think)
sheathing, which is basically falling off the wire - ug)
We are ONLY redoing the washroom (at this point).
The plan is run a cable up through the wall from the main panel
downstairs and add a small subpanel (2 breaker) with a kill-switch (or
whatever you call it) in the bathroom. This sub-panel will be located
in a small closet.
The expectation is that if/when we re-do the bedrooms, we now have an
avalible circuit for them easily.
My guess would be this panel can't be in a closet. I'll check this
with the code book, but thought I'd ask here to get peoples opinions.
Any other major gotchas you see with doing this?

Thanks!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the responses guys.

Yes, there is an outlet outside the medicine cabinet as well
(downstream from the GFCI), so all is good there I think.
The main issue with the sub panel is my wife - she would freak if I
suggested that subpanel in the hall or something - shes wants nothing
to impead the vision for her design.

thanks

You can get a small flush mounted panel, then hang a picture over it




wrote in message
ups.com...
On Mar 20, 4:18 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it
would
meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code, you
may
need an outlet outside the cabinet as well. Your panel can't be in a
closet
other than one designated for electrical equipment. Just hang it in a
hallway

wrote in message

oups.com...



Two bathroom questions:

1) Is it ok from a code perspective to have a GFCI outlet INSIDE a
medicine cabinet?
The cabinet is NOT recessed, and Ive removed the back.
So basically we are placing the cabinet, opened at the back, over the
finished (drywalled) wall/GFCI.
All other outlets (well the only other one) in the bathroom are
downstream from this GFCI.

2) We have an old house. The entire upstairs (2 bedrooms, 1 bath) was
on a single, ungrounded circuit (with this ugly cotten (i think)
sheathing, which is basically falling off the wire - ug)
We are ONLY redoing the washroom (at this point).
The plan is run a cable up through the wall from the main panel
downstairs and add a small subpanel (2 breaker) with a kill-switch (or
whatever you call it) in the bathroom. This sub-panel will be located
in a small closet.
The expectation is that if/when we re-do the bedrooms, we now have an
avalible circuit for them easily.
My guess would be this panel can't be in a closet. I'll check this
with the code book, but thought I'd ask here to get peoples opinions.
Any other major gotchas you see with doing this?

Thanks!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for the responses guys.

Yes, there is an outlet outside the medicine cabinet as well
(downstream from the GFCI), so all is good there I think.
The main issue with the sub panel is my wife - she would freak if I
suggested that subpanel in the hall or something - shes wants nothing
to impead the vision for her design.

thanks

wrote in message
oups.com...
Two bathroom questions:

1) Is it ok from a code perspective to have a GFCI outlet INSIDE a
medicine cabinet?
The cabinet is NOT recessed, and Ive removed the back.
So basically we are placing the cabinet, opened at the back, over the
finished (drywalled) wall/GFCI.
All other outlets (well the only other one) in the bathroom are
downstream from this GFCI.

2) We have an old house. The entire upstairs (2 bedrooms, 1 bath) was
on a single, ungrounded circuit (with this ugly cotten (i think)
sheathing, which is basically falling off the wire - ug)
We are ONLY redoing the washroom (at this point).
The plan is run a cable up through the wall from the main panel
downstairs and add a small subpanel (2 breaker) with a kill-switch (or
whatever you call it) in the bathroom. This sub-panel will be located
in a small closet.
The expectation is that if/when we re-do the bedrooms, we now have an
avalible circuit for them easily.
My guess would be this panel can't be in a closet. I'll check this
with the code book, but thought I'd ask here to get peoples opinions.
Any other major gotchas you see with doing this?

Thanks!


Instead of installing a subpanel in the closet you can install a junction
box. Bring one or two (Or three) circuits up and terminate them in a
junction box in the closet where you can access them later. You could get
some deep metal switch boxes and gang them together and recess it into the
wall to make your junction box flush. Another thought is to just bring some
spare circuits up into the attic to be used in the future. Leave plenty of
slack on the wire so you won't need to install junction boxes up there.

FYI GE makes a white flush mount panel for mounting in hallways and such.
You can buy them at Lowes.

In article , (RBM) writes:

| It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it would
| meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code, you may
| need an outlet outside the cabinet as well.

Speaking of outlets in medicine cabinets...

My house (like many of its age) has bathroom outlets integrated into the
medicine cabinet/light or over-cabinet light assemblies. It seemed to me
that it should be easy to find replacement lighting fixtures with integrated
GFCI outlets, but after poking around the big box stores and doing a lot of
Googling I didn't see any. At first I thought that outlets in bathroom
lighting fixtures were simply no longer allowed and/or that you are expected
to install a normal GFCI in the wall if you are replacing the cabinet, but
then I found some bathroom lighting fixtures with *non*-GFCI outlets.
(Unfortunately, the non-GFCI outlets aren't Decora so swapping in a GFCI
would require some metal work and would probably void the UL listing...)

Eventually my Google search came across a patent on (I think) the concept
of GFCI outlets in bathroom lighting fixtures. Please tell me this isn't
the reason for the scarcity of such products.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On 21 Mar 2007 03:41:11 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

In article , (RBM) writes:

| It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it would
| meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code, you may
| need an outlet outside the cabinet as well.

Speaking of outlets in medicine cabinets...

My house (like many of its age) has bathroom outlets integrated into the
medicine cabinet/light or over-cabinet light assemblies. It seemed to me
that it should be easy to find replacement lighting fixtures with integrated
GFCI outlets, but after poking around the big box stores and doing a lot of
Googling I didn't see any. At first I thought that outlets in bathroom
lighting fixtures were simply no longer allowed and/or that you are expected
to install a normal GFCI in the wall if you are replacing the cabinet, but
then I found some bathroom lighting fixtures with *non*-GFCI outlets.
(Unfortunately, the non-GFCI outlets aren't Decora so swapping in a GFCI
would require some metal work and would probably void the UL listing...)

Eventually my Google search came across a patent on (I think) the concept
of GFCI outlets in bathroom lighting fixtures. Please tell me this isn't
the reason for the scarcity of such products.

I have no idea, but you can find the circuit breaker for your light
fixture with outlet, and replace that breaker with a GFI breaker.
That fulfills the code and will work with any outlet, in a fixture or
not.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article , (mm) writes:
| On 21 Mar 2007 03:41:11 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
| In article , (RBM) writes:
|
| | It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it would
| | meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code, you may
| | need an outlet outside the cabinet as well.
|
| Speaking of outlets in medicine cabinets...
|
| My house (like many of its age) has bathroom outlets integrated into the
| medicine cabinet/light or over-cabinet light assemblies. It seemed to me
| that it should be easy to find replacement lighting fixtures with integrated
| GFCI outlets, but after poking around the big box stores and doing a lot of
| Googling I didn't see any. At first I thought that outlets in bathroom
| lighting fixtures were simply no longer allowed and/or that you are expected
| to install a normal GFCI in the wall if you are replacing the cabinet, but
| then I found some bathroom lighting fixtures with *non*-GFCI outlets.
| (Unfortunately, the non-GFCI outlets aren't Decora so swapping in a GFCI
| would require some metal work and would probably void the UL listing...)
|
| Eventually my Google search came across a patent on (I think) the concept
| of GFCI outlets in bathroom lighting fixtures. Please tell me this isn't
| the reason for the scarcity of such products.
|
| I have no idea, but you can find the circuit breaker for your light
| fixture with outlet, and replace that breaker with a GFI breaker.

Actually I can't, because there is no circuit breaker.

I could of course intercept the circuit in the basement and install a
GFCI outlet inline, but I'm still curious about the existence of
fixtures with GFCI outlets built in.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

I've never seen one. It probably isn't practical to make one. There was a
time when outlets weren't installed in bathrooms, then later when they were
being installed, a fixture mounted outlet was a cheap solution. Once GFCI
protection was required, you had to install a new outlet or protect the
bathroom feed upstream



"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message
...
In article ,
(mm) writes:
| On 21 Mar 2007 03:41:11 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
| In article , (RBM)
writes:
|
| | It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it
would
| | meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code,
you may
| | need an outlet outside the cabinet as well.
|
| Speaking of outlets in medicine cabinets...
|
| My house (like many of its age) has bathroom outlets integrated into
the
| medicine cabinet/light or over-cabinet light assemblies. It seemed to
me
| that it should be easy to find replacement lighting fixtures with
integrated
| GFCI outlets, but after poking around the big box stores and doing a
lot of
| Googling I didn't see any. At first I thought that outlets in bathroom
| lighting fixtures were simply no longer allowed and/or that you are
expected
| to install a normal GFCI in the wall if you are replacing the cabinet,
but
| then I found some bathroom lighting fixtures with *non*-GFCI outlets.
| (Unfortunately, the non-GFCI outlets aren't Decora so swapping in a
GFCI
| would require some metal work and would probably void the UL
listing...)
|
| Eventually my Google search came across a patent on (I think) the
concept
| of GFCI outlets in bathroom lighting fixtures. Please tell me this
isn't
| the reason for the scarcity of such products.
|
| I have no idea, but you can find the circuit breaker for your light
| fixture with outlet, and replace that breaker with a GFI breaker.

Actually I can't, because there is no circuit breaker.

I could of course intercept the circuit in the basement and install a
GFCI outlet inline, but I'm still curious about the existence of
fixtures with GFCI outlets built in.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On 21 Mar 2007 06:53:25 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:


| I have no idea, but you can find the circuit breaker for your light
| fixture with outlet, and replace that breaker with a GFI breaker.

Actually I can't, because there is no circuit breaker.

Darn. I hate it when people assume that others have new things, and
now I've done it myself.

I hate it even more when people act like only new things are worth
having, but I haven't gotten to that point yet.

I could of course intercept the circuit in the basement and install a
GFCI outlet inline, but I'm still curious about the existence of
fixtures with GFCI outlets built in.

In article , (RBM) writes:

| I've never seen one. It probably isn't practical to make one.

It isn't clear why it is any less practical to make one with a GFCI
outlet than one with an ordinary duplex outlet, and the latter certainly
exist. (You might even argue that the Decora punch outline is easier.
And of course we see built-in GFCIs popping up in various places (e.g.,
hair dryers and trouble lights with outlets) so the concept isn't that
far-fetched.

| There was a
| time when outlets weren't installed in bathrooms, then later when they were
| being installed, a fixture mounted outlet was a cheap solution. Once GFCI
| protection was required, you had to install a new outlet or protect the
| bathroom feed upstream

True enough, but for the case of replacing an existing cabinet/fixture
with outlet (I'm sure I'm not the only one with such things) the
built-in GFCI seems like an obvious win. The market for the units with
a non-GFCI outlet appears much smaller. They would be useful only if the
lighting circuit was already protected. It would be funny if it's all
about patent royalties...

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

| "Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message
| ...
| In article ,
| (mm) writes:
| | On 21 Mar 2007 03:41:11 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| |
| | In article , (RBM)
| writes:
| |
| | | It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure it
| would
| | | meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet code,
| you may
| | | need an outlet outside the cabinet as well.
| |
| | Speaking of outlets in medicine cabinets...
| |
| | My house (like many of its age) has bathroom outlets integrated into
| the
| | medicine cabinet/light or over-cabinet light assemblies. It seemed to
| me
| | that it should be easy to find replacement lighting fixtures with
| integrated
| | GFCI outlets, but after poking around the big box stores and doing a
| lot of
| | Googling I didn't see any. At first I thought that outlets in bathroom
| | lighting fixtures were simply no longer allowed and/or that you are
| expected
| | to install a normal GFCI in the wall if you are replacing the cabinet,
| but
| | then I found some bathroom lighting fixtures with *non*-GFCI outlets.
| | (Unfortunately, the non-GFCI outlets aren't Decora so swapping in a
| GFCI
| | would require some metal work and would probably void the UL
| listing...)
| |
| | Eventually my Google search came across a patent on (I think) the
| concept
| | of GFCI outlets in bathroom lighting fixtures. Please tell me this
| isn't
| | the reason for the scarcity of such products.
| |
| | I have no idea, but you can find the circuit breaker for your light
| | fixture with outlet, and replace that breaker with a GFI breaker.
|
| Actually I can't, because there is no circuit breaker.
|
| I could of course intercept the circuit in the basement and install a
| GFCI outlet inline, but I'm still curious about the existence of
| fixtures with GFCI outlets built in.
|
| Dan Lanciani
| ddl@danlan.*com

It's not that it can't be done. I just think that if manufacturers thought
there was a market for it, they'd be making them



"Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message
...
In article , (RBM) writes:

| I've never seen one. It probably isn't practical to make one.

It isn't clear why it is any less practical to make one with a GFCI
outlet than one with an ordinary duplex outlet, and the latter certainly
exist. (You might even argue that the Decora punch outline is easier.
And of course we see built-in GFCIs popping up in various places (e.g.,
hair dryers and trouble lights with outlets) so the concept isn't that
far-fetched.

| There was a
| time when outlets weren't installed in bathrooms, then later when they
were
| being installed, a fixture mounted outlet was a cheap solution. Once
GFCI
| protection was required, you had to install a new outlet or protect the
| bathroom feed upstream

True enough, but for the case of replacing an existing cabinet/fixture
with outlet (I'm sure I'm not the only one with such things) the
built-in GFCI seems like an obvious win. The market for the units with
a non-GFCI outlet appears much smaller. They would be useful only if the
lighting circuit was already protected. It would be funny if it's all
about patent royalties...

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

| "Dan Lanciani" ddl@danlan.*com wrote in message
| ...
| In article ,
| (mm) writes:
| | On 21 Mar 2007 03:41:11 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| |
| | In article ,
(RBM)
| writes:
| |
| | | It's fine to install the outlet in the cabinet, although I'm sure
it
| would
| | | meet the bathroom outlet requirement, which is to say, to meet
code,
| you may
| | | need an outlet outside the cabinet as well.
| |
| | Speaking of outlets in medicine cabinets...
| |
| | My house (like many of its age) has bathroom outlets integrated
into
| the
| | medicine cabinet/light or over-cabinet light assemblies. It seemed
to
| me
| | that it should be easy to find replacement lighting fixtures with
| integrated
| | GFCI outlets, but after poking around the big box stores and doing
a
| lot of
| | Googling I didn't see any. At first I thought that outlets in
bathroom
| | lighting fixtures were simply no longer allowed and/or that you are
| expected
| | to install a normal GFCI in the wall if you are replacing the
cabinet,
| but
| | then I found some bathroom lighting fixtures with *non*-GFCI
outlets.
| | (Unfortunately, the non-GFCI outlets aren't Decora so swapping in a
| GFCI
| | would require some metal work and would probably void the UL
| listing...)
| |
| | Eventually my Google search came across a patent on (I think) the
| concept
| | of GFCI outlets in bathroom lighting fixtures. Please tell me this
| isn't
| | the reason for the scarcity of such products.
| |
| | I have no idea, but you can find the circuit breaker for your light
| | fixture with outlet, and replace that breaker with a GFI breaker.
|
| Actually I can't, because there is no circuit breaker.
|
| I could of course intercept the circuit in the basement and install a
| GFCI outlet inline, but I'm still curious about the existence of
| fixtures with GFCI outlets built in.
|
| Dan Lanciani
| ddl@danlan.*com

On 21 Mar 2007 20:20:16 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

In article , (RBM) writes:

| I've never seen one. It probably isn't practical to make one.

It isn't clear why it is any less practical to make one with a GFCI
outlet than one with an ordinary duplex outlet, and the latter certainly
exist.

You have seen bathroom lights with a built-in duplext outlet? I've
only seen single outlets.

That's the reason I would think it wouldn't be made, because they'd
have to really compress things to get a gfi in the same space as a
single outlet, and even if they made the space bigger, they'd have to
design a whole new outlet.

Did someone say it was about patent royalties, or why do you think of
that? Why would the royalties be any different from loads other
situations?

(You might even argue that the Decora punch outline is easier.
And of course we see built-in GFCIs popping up in various places (e.g.,
hair dryers and trouble lights with outlets) so the concept isn't that
far-fetched.

| There was a
| time when outlets weren't installed in bathrooms, then later when they were
| being installed, a fixture mounted outlet was a cheap solution. Once GFCI
| protection was required, you had to install a new outlet or protect the
| bathroom feed upstream

True enough, but for the case of replacing an existing cabinet/fixture
with outlet (I'm sure I'm not the only one with such things) the
built-in GFCI seems like an obvious win. The market for the units with
a non-GFCI outlet appears much smaller. They would be useful only if the
lighting circuit was already protected. It would be funny if it's all
about patent royalties...

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

In article , (mm) writes:
| On 21 Mar 2007 20:20:16 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
| In article , (RBM) writes:
|
| | I've never seen one. It probably isn't practical to make one.
|
| It isn't clear why it is any less practical to make one with a GFCI
| outlet than one with an ordinary duplex outlet, and the latter certainly
| exist.
|
| You have seen bathroom lights with a built-in duplext outlet?

Those are what came up (among many other useless hits) in various Google
searches for fixtures with outlets. They looked like perfectly standard
duplex outlets. If there existed a GFCI in that format you could drop
it right in.

| I've
| only seen single outlets.

That's what my existing ~50-year-old fixtures have.

| Did someone say it was about patent royalties, or why do you think of
| that? Why would the royalties be any different from loads other
| situations?

The only actual reference to bathroom lighting fixtures with GFCI
outlets that came up in my Google searches was a patent on the concept.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

On 22 Mar 2007 20:16:25 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

In article , (mm) writes:
| On 21 Mar 2007 20:20:16 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
| In article , (RBM) writes:
|
| | I've never seen one. It probably isn't practical to make one.
|
| It isn't clear why it is any less practical to make one with a GFCI
| outlet than one with an ordinary duplex outlet, and the latter certainly
| exist.
|
| You have seen bathroom lights with a built-in duplext outlet?

Those are what came up (among many other useless hits) in various Google
searches for fixtures with outlets. They looked like perfectly standard
duplex outlets. If there existed a GFCI in that format you could drop
it right in.

| I've
| only seen single outlets.

That's what my existing ~50-year-old fixtures have.

Thanks for answering my questions.

| Did someone say it was about patent royalties, or why do you think of
| that? Why would the royalties be any different from loads other
| situations?

The only actual reference to bathroom lighting fixtures with GFCI
outlets that came up in my Google searches was a patent on the concept.

I don'tknow how they negotiate prices for using patents.

I would think a guy would lower his asking price if it wasn't selling.
And come to think of it, it the standard gfi would slip right in to
the same space, I don't know why any patent negotiation would be
necessary.

Also, I hate to be picky, esp. since it's not essential to this
discussion, but I don't think you can patent a concept. It has to be
a thing**, with a prototype that's been built and works.

**Or a computer program, or a design (although I don't actually know
what a design patent is.) And maybe some other exceptionsal stuff I
don't know about, but still not just a concept.




Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com