I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Ben wrote:
I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?


Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim

On Feb 15, 8:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:
Ben wrote:
I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim

A few not very scientific tests later....


Fkushing the loo initially causes a racket. It then quickly quietens
down. Then the racket then starts again and lasts much longer. Then
quiet.

I suspect this can be explained by:

Water level drops as loo flushes
Ballcock rapidly falls, opening valve fully
While it is opening, we get noise
Once fully open, peace and quiet
As tank nears full again, valve starts to close
Tank takes forever to fully fill, as valve closes further the close it
gets
Hence long drawn out noise

I'm guessing some clever person must have come up with a robust
solution to this? The fluidmaster valves look like they might do (and
also look very quiet - filling underwater), but look a bit plasticy
and breakable...

On Feb 15, 8:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:
Ben wrote:
I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim

A few not very scientific tests later....


Fkushing the loo initially causes a racket. It then quickly quietens
down. Then the racket then starts again and lasts much longer. Then
quiet.

I suspect this can be explained by:

Water level drops as loo flushes
Ballcock rapidly falls, opening valve fully
While it is opening, we get noise
Once fully open, peace and quiet
As tank nears full again, valve starts to close
Tank takes forever to fully fill, as valve closes further the close it
gets
Hence long drawn out noise

I'm guessing some clever person must have come up with a robust
solution to this? The fluidmaster valves look like they might do (and
also look very quiet - filling underwater), but look a bit plasticy
and breakable...

Ben wrote:

On Feb 15, 8:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:

Ben wrote:

I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim


A few not very scientific tests later....


Fkushing the loo initially causes a racket. It then quickly quietens
down. Then the racket then starts again and lasts much longer. Then
quiet.

I suspect this can be explained by:

Water level drops as loo flushes
Ballcock rapidly falls, opening valve fully
While it is opening, we get noise
Once fully open, peace and quiet
As tank nears full again, valve starts to close
Tank takes forever to fully fill, as valve closes further the close it
gets
Hence long drawn out noise

I'm guessing some clever person must have come up with a robust
solution to this? The fluidmaster valves look like they might do (and
also look very quiet - filling underwater), but look a bit plasticy
and breakable...




The FluidMaster has a good reputation on this side o' the pond :-)

Breakage really hasn't been a big problem.

For repairs (seldom needed) the top just pops off.
Jim

On Feb 15, 9:33 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:
Ben wrote:
On Feb 15, 8:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:

Ben wrote:

I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim

A few not very scientific tests later....

Fkushing the loo initially causes a racket. It then quickly quietens
down. Then the racket then starts again and lasts much longer. Then
quiet.

I suspect this can be explained by:

Water level drops as loo flushes
Ballcock rapidly falls, opening valve fully
While it is opening, we get noise
Once fully open, peace and quiet
As tank nears full again, valve starts to close
Tank takes forever to fully fill, as valve closes further the close it
gets
Hence long drawn out noise

I'm guessing some clever person must have come up with a robust
solution to this? The fluidmaster valves look like they might do (and
also look very quiet - filling underwater), but look a bit plasticy
and breakable...

The FluidMaster has a good reputation on this side o' the pond :-)

Breakage really hasn't been a big problem.

For repairs (seldom needed) the top just pops off.
Jim

Thanks -I'll give it a go. The council have the key to the loft, so
I'll have to try to prise it off them... btw, which side of the pond
is "this"?

Cheers,

Ben (UK)

Ben wrote:

SNIP

Thanks -I'll give it a go. The council have the key to the loft, so
I'll have to try to prise it off them... btw, which side of the pond
is "this"?

Cheers,

Ben (UK)


"This" side is the western shore.

Cheers,

Jim (US)

Ben wrote:

On Feb 15, 8:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:

Ben wrote:

I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim


A few not very scientific tests later....


Fkushing the loo initially causes a racket. It then quickly quietens
down. Then the racket then starts again and lasts much longer. Then
quiet.

I suspect this can be explained by:

Water level drops as loo flushes
Ballcock rapidly falls, opening valve fully
While it is opening, we get noise
Once fully open, peace and quiet
As tank nears full again, valve starts to close
Tank takes forever to fully fill, as valve closes further the close it
gets
Hence long drawn out noise

I'm guessing some clever person must have come up with a robust
solution to this? The fluidmaster valves look like they might do (and
also look very quiet - filling underwater), but look a bit plasticy
and breakable...




On further consideration, I wonder if the FluidMaster
will be large enough (i.e., flow-wise) to keep the cistern
full under maximum draw. The cistern is common to all
the tenants, right?

Also, with many demands for water, the FluidMaster
might be switching On/Off rapidly, rather than gently
modulating the flow as the ballcock is supposed to

Hmmmmmmm

Jim

On 15 Feb, 21:49, Speedy Jim wrote:
Ben wrote:
On Feb 15, 8:52 pm, Speedy Jim wrote:

Ben wrote:

I think I have finally worked out the archaic piping in this flat, but
have a question for anyon knowledgeable out there... There are two
cold water pipes. One is large and iron and feeds my cistern, and the
rest of the building. the other is small (15mm) and copper, and makes
an awful racket from time to time.

It seems to me that the large pipe is probably low pressure out, and
the narrow high pressure in. Obviously with a high pressure pipe there
is lots of scope for noise. This noise is oftem of varying
amplitude, and is sometimes accompanied by a whistling. I would guess
that this is due to the ballcock causing pressure fluctuations within
the pipe, and also acting like a musical flute. Does this sound
plausible?

Is the best bet to replace the cistern valve? I would guess that
vibration and noise is most likely as the pressure in the pipe is
varying due to float movements. A new valve that switches from full
flow to zero flow rapidly might be better...?

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

If the new valve closes *too* fast, there is a
possibility you could hear a "thump" or rattling.
In that event, add an air chamber to the pipe, near
the cistern to absorb the shock wave.

Jim

A few not very scientific tests later....

Fkushing the loo initially causes a racket. It then quickly quietens
down. Then the racket then starts again and lasts much longer. Then
quiet.

I suspect this can be explained by:

Water level drops as loo flushes
Ballcock rapidly falls, opening valve fully
While it is opening, we get noise
Once fully open, peace and quiet
As tank nears full again, valve starts to close
Tank takes forever to fully fill, as valve closes further the close it
gets
Hence long drawn out noise

I'm guessing some clever person must have come up with a robust
solution to this? The fluidmaster valves look like they might do (and
also look very quiet - filling underwater), but look a bit plasticy
and breakable...

On further consideration, I wonder if the FluidMaster
will be large enough (i.e., flow-wise) to keep the cistern
full under maximum draw. The cistern is common to all
the tenants, right?

Also, with many demands for water, the FluidMaster
might be switching On/Off rapidly, rather than gently
modulating the flow as the ballcock is supposed to

Hmmmmmmm

Jim

That's a point. I'm not sure exactly how many people the tank serves,
but I'll maybe have a chat with the local plumbers merchants. I don't
think it can be the whole block (40 flats) as it doesn't fill
regularly enough. I'd guess it's about 10 flats. I can't be the
first person to have had this problem, and I can see no technical
reason why a robust, large solution could not be produced. I suppose
you could plum in a few in parallel (yuck, but should work!)


Ben