We have a four story plus cellar 1840's 2 family house with a hydronic
heating system with large radiators that was probably installed in the
1920's. The gas boiler is about 20 years old. The system has both a
conventional expansion tank (that has not been emptied in years) and a
Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank in series.

Every place I looked on the web (including the Filltrol site) says that the
system pressure should be set at 12 psi when cold and should be 20 psi when
hot and circulating. That is exactly where it is, but the radiators on the
4th floor seem to have some air left in them. When bled, water does not
come out of the valve and the top of the radiators are not very hot (the
bottom halves are).

Should the pressure be higher in a 4 story house that in a shorter one? And
if so what should it be? And how do I adjust it? The Filltrol manual does
not give instructions other than to say that it is adjusted via the intake
air valve and should be adjusted when the tank is empty.

So (if I really do need to increase the pressure) do I add air (and how
much) or remove air from the Filltrol expansion tank. And do I have to
completely drain the system to do it? Or just let out a few gallons of
water? Or not concern myself with letting any water out.

A link to a good website will suffice. As I said, my Google search was
unproductive.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:dkdyh.3252$yH3.575@trndny07...
We have a four story plus cellar 1840's 2 family house with a hydronic
heating system with large radiators that was probably installed in the
1920's. The gas boiler is about 20 years old. The system has both a
conventional expansion tank (that has not been emptied in years) and a
Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank in series.

Every place I looked on the web (including the Filltrol site) says that
the system pressure should be set at 12 psi when cold and should be 20 psi
when hot and circulating. That is exactly where it is, but the radiators
on the 4th floor seem to have some air left in them. When bled, water
does not come out of the valve and the top of the radiators are not very
hot (the bottom halves are).

Should the pressure be higher in a 4 story house that in a shorter one?
And if so what should it be? And how do I adjust it? The Filltrol manual
does not give instructions other than to say that it is adjusted via the
intake air valve and should be adjusted when the tank is empty.

So (if I really do need to increase the pressure) do I add air (and how
much) or remove air from the Filltrol expansion tank. And do I have to
completely drain the system to do it? Or just let out a few gallons of
water? Or not concern myself with letting any water out.

A link to a good website will suffice. As I said, my Google search was
unproductive.
--
Peace,
BobJ

http://heatinghelp.com/ Tons of info there if you can not find what you need
on the site they have a forum where you can post questions. My feeling is 20
psi should get to the fourth floor. 1 psi will roughly lift water 2.31' so
20 psi should get you 46.2 feet-- there are other varibles that may come
into play too that may shorten that estimate. If you search google using
combos of verticle lift, psi, water, head-- you will find some more of what
you are looking for.

Steve

You dont even know if your gauge is accurate, Add water to a COLD boiler
of 70f while bleeding air out of the top floor while boiler is running
till water comes out the radiator. Your issue is not enough Altitude or
Pressure. Dont mess with anything else. Then see how it works and
monitor pressure cold and hot, it may only take a Lb or 2 of water to
get heat to the top. After a few hours bleed radiators again. It may
take a few tries over a few days.

On Feb 6, 11:20 pm, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:
We have a four story plus cellar 1840's 2 family house with a hydronic
heating system with large radiators that was probably installed in the
1920's. The gas boiler is about 20 years old. The system has both a
conventional expansion tank (that has not been emptied in years) and a
Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank in series.

Every place I looked on the web (including the Filltrol site) says that the
system pressure should be set at 12 psi when cold and should be 20 psi when
hot and circulating. That is exactly where it is, but the radiators on the
4th floor seem to have some air left in them. When bled, water does not
come out of the valve and the top of the radiators are not very hot (the
bottom halves are).

Should the pressure be higher in a 4 story house that in a shorter one? And
if so what should it be? And how do I adjust it? The Filltrol manual does
not give instructions other than to say that it is adjusted via the intake
air valve and should be adjusted when the tank is empty.

So (if I really do need to increase the pressure) do I add air (and how
much) or remove air from the Filltrol expansion tank. And do I have to
completely drain the system to do it? Or just let out a few gallons of
water? Or not concern myself with letting any water out.

A link to a good website will suffice. As I said, my Google search was
unproductive.
--
Peace,
BobJ

You do not say whether you are getting enough heat in the top floor.
If the rooms up there are comfortable, then there is nothing wrong
with having the radiators half full, and if I were you I would not
touch it. If you need more heat up there then first try bleeding air
from the radiators. The system should have an inlet valve that adds
water automatically when the pressure drops below 12 psi. -- H

"Heathcliff" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 6, 11:20 pm, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:
We have a four story plus cellar 1840's 2 family house with a hydronic
heating system with large radiators that was probably installed in the
1920's. The gas boiler is about 20 years old. The system has both a
conventional expansion tank (that has not been emptied in years) and a
Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank in series.

Every place I looked on the web (including the Filltrol site) says that
the
system pressure should be set at 12 psi when cold and should be 20 psi
when
hot and circulating. That is exactly where it is, but the radiators on
the
4th floor seem to have some air left in them. When bled, water does not
come out of the valve and the top of the radiators are not very hot (the
bottom halves are).

Should the pressure be higher in a 4 story house that in a shorter one?
And
if so what should it be? And how do I adjust it? The Filltrol manual
does
not give instructions other than to say that it is adjusted via the
intake
air valve and should be adjusted when the tank is empty.

So (if I really do need to increase the pressure) do I add air (and how
much) or remove air from the Filltrol expansion tank. And do I have to
completely drain the system to do it? Or just let out a few gallons of
water? Or not concern myself with letting any water out.

A link to a good website will suffice. As I said, my Google search was
unproductive.
--
Peace,
BobJ



You do not say whether you are getting enough heat in the top floor.

The 4th floor is occupied by our tenants. They tend not to complain, but
did alert us to the radiator problem at the beginning of the winter when it
was not cold. I did note an electric space heater in a room when I last bled
their radiators. In any case, I would want it to work right.

If the rooms up there are comfortable, then there is nothing wrong
with having the radiators half full, and if I were you I would not
touch it. If you need more heat up there then first try bleeding air
from the radiators.

I have bled the radiators twice this winter. In both cases only air came
out few a few seconds. Water never came out of these radiators no matter
how long the valve was left open.

The system should have an inlet valve that adds
water automatically when the pressure drops below 12 psi. -- H

Yes, I understand this. My question is whether 12 psi cold pressure (20 psi
hot with circulator pump on) is enough for a system with large radiators
that are about 35 feet above the level of the boiler.
--
Peace,
BobJ

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
"Heathcliff" wrote in message
oups.com...

On Feb 6, 11:20 pm, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:

We have a four story plus cellar 1840's 2 family house with a hydronic
heating system with large radiators that was probably installed in the
1920's. The gas boiler is about 20 years old. The system has both a
conventional expansion tank (that has not been emptied in years) and a
Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank in series.

Every place I looked on the web (including the Filltrol site) says that
the
system pressure should be set at 12 psi when cold and should be 20 psi
when
hot and circulating. That is exactly where it is, but the radiators on
the
4th floor seem to have some air left in them. When bled, water does not
come out of the valve and the top of the radiators are not very hot (the
bottom halves are).

Should the pressure be higher in a 4 story house that in a shorter one?
And
if so what should it be? And how do I adjust it? The Filltrol manual
does
not give instructions other than to say that it is adjusted via the
intake
air valve and should be adjusted when the tank is empty.

So (if I really do need to increase the pressure) do I add air (and how
much) or remove air from the Filltrol expansion tank. And do I have to
completely drain the system to do it? Or just let out a few gallons of
water? Or not concern myself with letting any water out.

A link to a good website will suffice. As I said, my Google search was
unproductive.
--
Peace,
BobJ



You do not say whether you are getting enough heat in the top floor.


The 4th floor is occupied by our tenants. They tend not to complain, but
did alert us to the radiator problem at the beginning of the winter when it
was not cold. I did note an electric space heater in a room when I last bled
their radiators. In any case, I would want it to work right.


If the rooms up there are comfortable, then there is nothing wrong
with having the radiators half full, and if I were you I would not
touch it. If you need more heat up there then first try bleeding air
from the radiators.


I have bled the radiators twice this winter. In both cases only air came
out few a few seconds. Water never came out of these radiators no matter
how long the valve was left open.


The system should have an inlet valve that adds
water automatically when the pressure drops below 12 psi. -- H


Yes, I understand this. My question is whether 12 psi cold pressure (20 psi
hot with circulator pump on) is enough for a system with large radiators
that are about 35 feet above the level of the boiler.


Short answer: NO! Cold pressure must be enough to maintain
the head at 35 Feet. Anytime the pressure drops (cold or hot)
below that required at the highest elevation, air *will* be sucked
into the system. On the next startup, that air will block flow
to the highest rads, even if pressure rises.

You may need more expansion tank capacity to reduce the swing
between cold and hot pressure.

In any case, you need higher system pressure.

Jim

"SuperPoo" wrote in message
news:Oleyh.1955$Yl3.1182@trndny09...

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:dkdyh.3252$yH3.575@trndny07...
We have a four story plus cellar 1840's 2 family house with a hydronic
heating system with large radiators that was probably installed in the
1920's. The gas boiler is about 20 years old. The system has both a
conventional expansion tank (that has not been emptied in years) and a
Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank in series.

Every place I looked on the web (including the Filltrol site) says that
the system pressure should be set at 12 psi when cold and should be 20
psi when hot and circulating. That is exactly where it is, but the
radiators on the 4th floor seem to have some air left in them. When
bled, water does not come out of the valve and the top of the radiators
are not very hot (the bottom halves are).

Should the pressure be higher in a 4 story house that in a shorter one?
And if so what should it be? And how do I adjust it? The Filltrol
manual does not give instructions other than to say that it is adjusted
via the intake air valve and should be adjusted when the tank is empty.

So (if I really do need to increase the pressure) do I add air (and how
much) or remove air from the Filltrol expansion tank. And do I have to
completely drain the system to do it? Or just let out a few gallons of
water? Or not concern myself with letting any water out.

A link to a good website will suffice. As I said, my Google search was
unproductive.
--
Peace,
BobJ

http://heatinghelp.com/ Tons of info there if you can not find what you
need on the site they have a forum where you can post questions. My
feeling is 20 psi should get to the fourth floor. 1 psi will roughly lift
water 2.31' so 20 psi should get you 46.2 feet-- there are other varibles
that may come into play too that may shorten that estimate. If you search
google using combos of verticle lift, psi, water, head-- you will find
some more of what you are looking for.

Steve


Thank you for the info. I did not see your response before I responded to a
later post reasking the question that you already answered. Since the water
only has to rise about 35 above the circulator pump outlet, I should be
fine.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
You dont even know if your gauge is accurate, Add water to a COLD boiler
of 70f while bleeding air out of the top floor while boiler is running
till water comes out the radiator. Your issue is not enough Altitude or
Pressure. Dont mess with anything else. Then see how it works and
monitor pressure cold and hot, it may only take a Lb or 2 of water to
get heat to the top. After a few hours bleed radiators again. It may
take a few tries over a few days.


Thanks, I'll try that.
--
Peace,
BobJ

In article , Speedy Jim wrote:
Marilyn & Bob wrote:
"Heathcliff" wrote in message
oups.com...

Yes, I understand this. My question is whether 12 psi cold pressure (20 psi
hot with circulator pump on) is enough for a system with large radiators
that are about 35 feet above the level of the boiler.

If you haven't actually measured, I think you should. This sounds a bit low to
me, for rads on the top floor of an older 4-story building.

You need to measure from the bottom of the boiler to the top of the rad.

Consider also that older buildings frequently have 9- or even 10-foot
ceilings, and floor joists were often 2x10 true (instead of 2x10 nominal = 1.5
x 9.25 true).

The 12 psi recommendation is based on having the boiler in the basement of a
*two* story building, where the head probably won't exceed 20 feet. I wouldn't
be at all surprised if the head in your building is closer to 40 feet than it
is to 35.

Short answer: NO! Cold pressure must be enough to maintain
the head at 35 Feet.

Entirely correct (as is what follows) -- but incomplete.

The missing part is that 1 foot of head = 0.4335 psi. Thus 35 feet of head is
a bit over 15 psi, and 40 feet of head is 17.3 psi.

Anytime the pressure drops (cold or hot)
below that required at the highest elevation, air *will* be sucked
into the system. On the next startup, that air will block flow
to the highest rads, even if pressure rises.

You may need more expansion tank capacity to reduce the swing
between cold and hot pressure.

In any case, you need higher system pressure.

Exactly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article %VIyh.2734$da1.685@trndny03, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:

Thank you for the info. I did not see your response before I responded to a
later post reasking the question that you already answered. Since the water
only has to rise about 35 above the circulator pump outlet, I should be
fine.

Not correct, on two counts.

First, the water needs to rise 35' (if indeed that's correct -- see my other
post in this thread) above the inlet where [pressurized] replenishment water
enters. The position of the circulator is irrelevant.

Second, you need enough pressure at that point to lift the water to the
highest radiator when the system is *cold*. The dynamic pressure (when the
system is operating) is immaterial. You must have enough *static* pressure to
get the water all the way up to the top, and 12 psi is not enough to lift
water 35 feet, let alone the 38 to 40 that I suspect is really the case.

Measure the height carefully. Don't forget to include the depth of the floor
joists: you have four sets of floor joists between the basement and the rads
on the top floor. That's at least 2 1/2 feet, and maybe as much as four.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , Speedy Jim
wrote:
Marilyn & Bob wrote:
"Heathcliff" wrote in message
oups.com...

Yes, I understand this. My question is whether 12 psi cold pressure (20
psi
hot with circulator pump on) is enough for a system with large radiators
that are about 35 feet above the level of the boiler.

If you haven't actually measured, I think you should. This sounds a bit
low to
me, for rads on the top floor of an older 4-story building.

You need to measure from the bottom of the boiler to the top of the rad.

Consider also that older buildings frequently have 9- or even 10-foot
ceilings, and floor joists were often 2x10 true (instead of 2x10 nominal =
1.5
x 9.25 true).

The 12 psi recommendation is based on having the boiler in the basement of
a
*two* story building, where the head probably won't exceed 20 feet. I
wouldn't
be at all surprised if the head in your building is closer to 40 feet than
it
is to 35.

Short answer: NO! Cold pressure must be enough to maintain
the head at 35 Feet.

Entirely correct (as is what follows) -- but incomplete.

The missing part is that 1 foot of head = 0.4335 psi. Thus 35 feet of head
is
a bit over 15 psi, and 40 feet of head is 17.3 psi.

Anytime the pressure drops (cold or hot)
below that required at the highest elevation, air *will* be sucked
into the system. On the next startup, that air will block flow
to the highest rads, even if pressure rises.

You may need more expansion tank capacity to reduce the swing
between cold and hot pressure.

In any case, you need higher system pressure.

Exactly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

OK. It's about 36' to the bottom of the top radiator about 39' to the top
where the bleeder valve is. So about 17 psi. Now the question is how do I
get to that? We have a Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank and standard
expansion tank. I have not drained that standard tank in many years. m
Ransley suggested bleeding the radiator with the water cold (but the
circulator pump on), is that a place to start? I've always bled it with the
system on full blast.


--
Peace,
BobJ

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...

In article , Speedy Jim
wrote:

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

"Heathcliff" wrote in message
legroups.com...

Yes, I understand this. My question is whether 12 psi cold pressure (20
psi
hot with circulator pump on) is enough for a system with large radiators
that are about 35 feet above the level of the boiler.

If you haven't actually measured, I think you should. This sounds a bit
low to
me, for rads on the top floor of an older 4-story building.

You need to measure from the bottom of the boiler to the top of the rad.

Consider also that older buildings frequently have 9- or even 10-foot
ceilings, and floor joists were often 2x10 true (instead of 2x10 nominal =
1.5
x 9.25 true).

The 12 psi recommendation is based on having the boiler in the basement of
a
*two* story building, where the head probably won't exceed 20 feet. I
wouldn't
be at all surprised if the head in your building is closer to 40 feet than
it
is to 35.


Short answer: NO! Cold pressure must be enough to maintain
the head at 35 Feet.

Entirely correct (as is what follows) -- but incomplete.

The missing part is that 1 foot of head = 0.4335 psi. Thus 35 feet of head
is
a bit over 15 psi, and 40 feet of head is 17.3 psi.


Anytime the pressure drops (cold or hot)
below that required at the highest elevation, air *will* be sucked
into the system. On the next startup, that air will block flow
to the highest rads, even if pressure rises.

You may need more expansion tank capacity to reduce the swing
between cold and hot pressure.

In any case, you need higher system pressure.

Exactly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


OK. It's about 36' to the bottom of the top radiator about 39' to the top
where the bleeder valve is. So about 17 psi. Now the question is how do I
get to that? We have a Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank and standard
expansion tank. I have not drained that standard tank in many years. m
Ransley suggested bleeding the radiator with the water cold (but the
circulator pump on), is that a place to start? I've always bled it with the
system on full blast.



Your boiler *may* have an automatic fill valve, like:
http://www.cashacme.com/cbl.php

If so, the regulator section is adjustable.

Drain the expansion tank first.
Get the pressure (cold) up where it should be and then bleed.

Jim

In article I0Kyh.4275$yH3.3135@trndny07, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:

OK. It's about 36' to the bottom of the top radiator about 39' to the top
where the bleeder valve is. So about 17 psi.

Yep. I think I'd go 18.

Now the question is how do I
get to that? We have a Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank and standard
expansion tank. I have not drained that standard tank in many years.

This has *nothing* to do with the expansion tank. The tank's only purpose is
to give the water some place to go when it expands due to being heated. Its
purpose is not to provide the initial pressure in the system.

m Ransley suggested bleeding the radiator with the water cold (but the
circulator pump on), is that a place to start?

No.

I've always bled it with the system on full blast.

That's fine when all you need to remove is a little bubble here and there.
Your problem, though, is that the system isn't full. You need to get it full.
And that means you shut it down completely. Boiler off. Circulator(s) off.
Everything off, and water cold. The fastest and easiest way of getting the
water cold is to run the circulator(s) while the boiler is off -- the
radiators will remove the heat from the water fairly quickly. Once the water
is cold, shut the circulators off.

Now, on to filling the system. It should be connected to the building's
domestic water supply through a pressure-reducing fill valve. That valve is
probably set at somewhere around 12 to 15 psi. You need to adjust it upward to
somewhere around 17 to 18 psi. (If the pressure setting is fixed and cannot be
adjusted, you need to replace it with a valve that can be adjusted.) One at a
time, open the bleed valves at the tops of the upper-floor radiators until
water comes out. Once you get water out of the bleed valve on every radiator,
the system is full. Turn it back on.

You'll probably still have some air in it. If your automatic air vents (you do
have some, right?) don't take care of it, then you'll need to do more
bleeding, this time with the system operational. Be careful you don't scald
yourself.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Jim,
See my response to Doug Miller.

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Marilyn & Bob wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...

In article , Speedy Jim
wrote:

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

"Heathcliff" wrote in message
glegroups.com...

Yes, I understand this. My question is whether 12 psi cold pressure
(20 psi
hot with circulator pump on) is enough for a system with large
radiators
that are about 35 feet above the level of the boiler.

If you haven't actually measured, I think you should. This sounds a bit
low to
me, for rads on the top floor of an older 4-story building.

You need to measure from the bottom of the boiler to the top of the rad.

Consider also that older buildings frequently have 9- or even 10-foot
ceilings, and floor joists were often 2x10 true (instead of 2x10 nominal
= 1.5
x 9.25 true).

The 12 psi recommendation is based on having the boiler in the basement
of a
*two* story building, where the head probably won't exceed 20 feet. I
wouldn't
be at all surprised if the head in your building is closer to 40 feet
than it
is to 35.


Short answer: NO! Cold pressure must be enough to maintain
the head at 35 Feet.

Entirely correct (as is what follows) -- but incomplete.

The missing part is that 1 foot of head = 0.4335 psi. Thus 35 feet of
head is
a bit over 15 psi, and 40 feet of head is 17.3 psi.


Anytime the pressure drops (cold or hot)
below that required at the highest elevation, air *will* be sucked
into the system. On the next startup, that air will block flow
to the highest rads, even if pressure rises.

You may need more expansion tank capacity to reduce the swing
between cold and hot pressure.

In any case, you need higher system pressure.

Exactly.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


OK. It's about 36' to the bottom of the top radiator about 39' to the
top where the bleeder valve is. So about 17 psi. Now the question is
how do I get to that? We have a Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank and
standard expansion tank. I have not drained that standard tank in many
years. m Ransley suggested bleeding the radiator with the water cold (but
the circulator pump on), is that a place to start? I've always bled it
with the system on full blast.



Your boiler *may* have an automatic fill valve, like:
http://www.cashacme.com/cbl.php

If so, the regulator section is adjustable.

Drain the expansion tank first.
Get the pressure (cold) up where it should be and then bleed.

Jim

In article cZKyh.2261$Yl3.1152@trndny09, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:
Jim,
See my response to Doug Miller.

Shoot, *I* would like to see your response to me! :-) This post showed up, but
I haven't seen anything else...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article I0Kyh.4275$yH3.3135@trndny07, "Marilyn & Bob"
wrote:

OK. It's about 36' to the bottom of the top radiator about 39' to the top
where the bleeder valve is. So about 17 psi.

Yep. I think I'd go 18.

Now the question is how do I
get to that? We have a Filltrol diaphragm expansion tank and standard
expansion tank. I have not drained that standard tank in many years.

This has *nothing* to do with the expansion tank.

Yes, it does, see below.

The tank's only purpose is
to give the water some place to go when it expands due to being heated.
Its
purpose is not to provide the initial pressure in the system.

m Ransley suggested bleeding the radiator with the water cold (but the
circulator pump on), is that a place to start?

No.

I've always bled it with the system on full blast.

That's fine when all you need to remove is a little bubble here and there.
Your problem, though, is that the system isn't full. You need to get it
full.
And that means you shut it down completely. Boiler off. Circulator(s) off.
Everything off, and water cold. The fastest and easiest way of getting the
water cold is to run the circulator(s) while the boiler is off -- the
radiators will remove the heat from the water fairly quickly. Once the
water
is cold, shut the circulators off.

Now, on to filling the system. It should be connected to the building's
domestic water supply through a pressure-reducing fill valve. That valve
is
probably set at somewhere around 12 to 15 psi. You need to adjust it
upward to
somewhere around 17 to 18 psi. (If the pressure setting is fixed and
cannot be
adjusted, you need to replace it with a valve that can be adjusted.) One
at a
time, open the bleed valves at the tops of the upper-floor radiators until
water comes out. Once you get water out of the bleed valve on every
radiator,
the system is full. Turn it back on.

You'll probably still have some air in it. If your automatic air vents
(you do
have some, right?) don't take care of it, then you'll need to do more
bleeding, this time with the system operational. Be careful you don't
scald
yourself.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug & Jim,

Thanks again for your help.

I think I now understand our communication problem about the expansion tank.
The Fill-trol expansion tank see: http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/filltrol.pdf
also serves a pressure regulator. I have the one combines with the air
purger. Yes, I know that the second (standard type) expansion tank that is
parallel in the system is irrelevant here. So, based on your advice, it
looks like to adjust this, I have to get an air pump and raise the air
pressure in the tank to about 18 lbs. from the current 12 lbs. The only
thing that I still need to understand is what is meant by the caution that
"The Fill-trol must be free of water when changing the air charge." It's
not clear to me how to achieve this "free of water" condition. I can e-mail
the manufacturer to find out what do if it is not obvious to either of you.
--
Peace,
BobJ

In article haLyh.4281$yH3.737@trndny07, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:
Doug & Jim,

Thanks again for your help.

I think I now understand our communication problem about the expansion tank.
The Fill-trol expansion tank see: http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/filltrol.pdf
also serves a pressure regulator.

Aha! Yes, that explains a lot. Clever mechanism, isn't it?

I have the one combines with the air
purger. Yes, I know that the second (standard type) expansion tank that is
parallel in the system is irrelevant here. So, based on your advice, it
looks like to adjust this, I have to get an air pump and raise the air
pressure in the tank to about 18 lbs. from the current 12 lbs.

Correct.

The only
thing that I still need to understand is what is meant by the caution that
"The Fill-trol must be free of water when changing the air charge." It's
not clear to me how to achieve this "free of water" condition. I can e-mail
the manufacturer to find out what do if it is not obvious to either of you.

If you shut off the water feeding the FillTrol, then shut off and drain the
boiler, that ought to empty the tank. Then you can adjust the tank pressure.
Close the boiler drain, and open the shutoff.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article haLyh.4281$yH3.737@trndny07, "Marilyn & Bob"
wrote:
Doug & Jim,

Thanks again for your help.

I think I now understand our communication problem about the expansion
tank.
The Fill-trol expansion tank see: http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/filltrol.pdf
also serves a pressure regulator.

Aha! Yes, that explains a lot. Clever mechanism, isn't it?

I have the one combines with the air
purger. Yes, I know that the second (standard type) expansion tank that
is
parallel in the system is irrelevant here. So, based on your advice, it
looks like to adjust this, I have to get an air pump and raise the air
pressure in the tank to about 18 lbs. from the current 12 lbs.

Correct.

The only
thing that I still need to understand is what is meant by the caution that
"The Fill-trol must be free of water when changing the air charge." It's
not clear to me how to achieve this "free of water" condition. I can
e-mail
the manufacturer to find out what do if it is not obvious to either of
you.

If you shut off the water feeding the FillTrol, then shut off and drain
the
boiler, that ought to empty the tank. Then you can adjust the tank
pressure.
Close the boiler drain, and open the shutoff.

OK. Since it means draining the system, it can wait until the spring. (It
takes at least five or six hours to drain and refill the system. Huge
radiators, and since we have no floor drain (sewer lateral is above cellar
floor height), draining has through a hose. Thanks again for you advice.
--
Peace,
BobJ




--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article JDLyh.2265$Yl3.1807@trndny09, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:

OK. Since it means draining the system, it can wait until the spring. (It
takes at least five or six hours to drain and refill the system. Huge
radiators, and since we have no floor drain (sewer lateral is above cellar
floor height), draining has through a hose. Thanks again for you advice.

You don't have to drain the whole system -- not unless you don't have any
shutoff valves anywhere, that is. There should be shutoffs ahead of, and
behind, the circulator. Close those, so that the water in the rads and the
pipes doesn't drain back. Then drain the boiler.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...

In article haLyh.4281$yH3.737@trndny07, "Marilyn & Bob"
wrote:

Doug & Jim,

Thanks again for your help.

I think I now understand our communication problem about the expansion
tank.
The Fill-trol expansion tank see: http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/filltrol.pdf
also serves a pressure regulator.

Aha! Yes, that explains a lot. Clever mechanism, isn't it?


I have the one combines with the air
purger. Yes, I know that the second (standard type) expansion tank that
is
parallel in the system is irrelevant here. So, based on your advice, it
looks like to adjust this, I have to get an air pump and raise the air
pressure in the tank to about 18 lbs. from the current 12 lbs.

Correct.


The only
thing that I still need to understand is what is meant by the caution that
"The Fill-trol must be free of water when changing the air charge." It's
not clear to me how to achieve this "free of water" condition. I can
e-mail
the manufacturer to find out what do if it is not obvious to either of
you.

If you shut off the water feeding the FillTrol, then shut off and drain
the
boiler, that ought to empty the tank. Then you can adjust the tank
pressure.
Close the boiler drain, and open the shutoff.


OK. Since it means draining the system, it can wait until the spring. (It
takes at least five or six hours to drain and refill the system. Huge
radiators, and since we have no floor drain (sewer lateral is above cellar
floor height), draining has through a hose. Thanks again for you advice.


Adjust the FillTrol regulator to give the required system pressure
when Cold. This has nothing to do with the air pressure in the
bladder; this adjusts the pressure of city water connection to boiler.

Do NOT drain the boiler. Admitting fresh water to the boiler
only results in increased corrosion.

If it is possible to drain the old exp tank without draining the
whole system, that may help. Do it *before* adjusting the FillTrol.

Jim

In article , Speedy Jim wrote:

Adjust the FillTrol regulator to give the required system pressure
when Cold. This has nothing to do with the air pressure in the
bladder; this adjusts the pressure of city water connection to boiler.

Nope -- you didn't check the link he provided. The FillTrol is expansion tank
and pressure-regulating fill valve in one unit. The air pressure in the tank
bladder is what regulates the system pressure.

Do NOT drain the boiler. Admitting fresh water to the boiler
only results in increased corrosion.

Phooey. He HAS to drain the FillTrol tank, at a minimum -- and since his
problem is that the system isn't full, he can't possibly avoid admitting fresh
water to the system. He doesn't have enough water in it. There is _no_way_ to
fix his problem without admitting fresh water.

In any event, as soon as the oxygen that's in the fresh water is used up,
there won't be any *additional* corrosion. The real big corrosion problem in
hydronic systems comes from the *continual* admission of fresh water in the
case of a slow leak (which is why it's recommended to close the fill valve
once the system's full).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Speedy Jim wrote:

Adjust the FillTrol regulator to give the required system pressure
when Cold. This has nothing to do with the air pressure in the
bladder; this adjusts the pressure of city water connection to boiler.


Nope -- you didn't check the link he provided. The FillTrol is expansion tank
and pressure-regulating fill valve in one unit. The air pressure in the tank
bladder is what regulates the system pressure.


Yes, I did check the link.

The fill valve (regulator) is adjustable to set the boiler pressure.
The boiler needs more _water_. You won't get more
water by adding air to the exp tank end of things.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Speedy Jim wrote:

Adjust the FillTrol regulator to give the required system pressure
when Cold. This has nothing to do with the air pressure in the
bladder; this adjusts the pressure of city water connection to boiler.


Nope -- you didn't check the link he provided. The FillTrol is expansion tank
and pressure-regulating fill valve in one unit. The air pressure in the tank
bladder is what regulates the system pressure.

Do NOT drain the boiler. Admitting fresh water to the boiler
only results in increased corrosion.


Phooey. He HAS to drain the FillTrol tank, at a minimum -- and since his
problem is that the system isn't full, he can't possibly avoid admitting fresh
water to the system. He doesn't have enough water in it. There is _no_way_ to
fix his problem without admitting fresh water.

In any event, as soon as the oxygen that's in the fresh water is used up,
there won't be any *additional* corrosion. The real big corrosion problem in
hydronic systems comes from the *continual* admission of fresh water in the
case of a slow leak (which is why it's recommended to close the fill valve
once the system's full).


Apologies. I misunderstood what was being said.

Although the instructions state that FillTrol must be
empty, I'll wager that simply pumping the air pressure
higher will admit more water and raise the boiler pressure
without draining any part of the system.

In article , Speedy Jim wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Speedy Jim
wrote:

Adjust the FillTrol regulator to give the required system pressure
when Cold. This has nothing to do with the air pressure in the
bladder; this adjusts the pressure of city water connection to boiler.


Nope -- you didn't check the link he provided. The FillTrol is expansion tank
and pressure-regulating fill valve in one unit. The air pressure in the tank
bladder is what regulates the system pressure.


Yes, I did check the link.

Then you apparently didn't understand it.

The fill valve (regulator) is adjustable to set the boiler pressure.

*System* pressure.

The boiler needs more _water_. You won't get more
water by adding air to the exp tank end of things.

Incorrect. Being on the bottom of the system, the *boiler* is full of water,
and doesn't need any more. It's the *radiators* on the fourth floor that need
more water -- and they aren't going to get it until the static pressure in the
system is raised to at least equal that 38- to 40-foot head.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Speedy Jim
wrote:

Adjust the FillTrol regulator to give the required system pressure
when Cold. This has nothing to do with the air pressure in the
bladder; this adjusts the pressure of city water connection to boiler.


Nope -- you didn't check the link he provided. The FillTrol is expansion
tank and pressure-regulating fill valve in one unit. The air pressure in
the tank bladder is what regulates the system pressure.

Do NOT drain the boiler. Admitting fresh water to the boiler
only results in increased corrosion.


Phooey. He HAS to drain the FillTrol tank, at a minimum -- and since his
problem is that the system isn't full, he can't possibly avoid admitting
fresh water to the system. He doesn't have enough water in it. There is
_no_way_ to fix his problem without admitting fresh water.

In any event, as soon as the oxygen that's in the fresh water is used up,
there won't be any *additional* corrosion. The real big corrosion problem
in hydronic systems comes from the *continual* admission of fresh water
in the case of a slow leak (which is why it's recommended to close the
fill valve once the system's full).


Apologies. I misunderstood what was being said.

Although the instructions state that FillTrol must be
empty, I'll wager that simply pumping the air pressure
higher will admit more water and raise the boiler pressure
without draining any part of the system.

I hope you are right, Jim, I don't want to drain anything. I think that the
simplest way to get an answer as to whether or not the system needs to be
drained is to e-mail the manufacturer. If they are responsible enough to
answer, I will know what to do. If I do have to drain the boiler, I will
come back here for advice. I have modern shutoffs on both sides of the
circulator pump and I have two ancient (I assume original to the system,
75-90 years old) shutoffs that seem like they would insulate the boiler from
the system piping. I'd seek your guidance on what should work. Hope I
don't need to do that.

In any case, it is not much effort to drain the standard expansion tank. I
can shut off the connection between the system and the tank and then drain
the tank and reopen the connection.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:vnRyh.2303$Yl3.1677@trndny09...

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
. net...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Speedy Jim
wrote:

snip
Although the instructions state that FillTrol must be
empty, I'll wager that simply pumping the air pressure
higher will admit more water and raise the boiler pressure
without draining any part of the system.


I hope you are right, Jim, I don't want to drain anything. I think that
the simplest way to get an answer as to whether or not the system needs to
be drained is to e-mail the manufacturer.
snip

I e-mailed the manufacturer over the weekend and go a response first think
this morning (terrific service). They said that there was no need to do
anything except shut off the makeup water and removing the pressure on the
system) before precharging the system to 17 or 18 lbs. Since I have the
second expansion tank in parallel, it looks like simply allowing the boiler
to cool off (and shutting the water intake) will satisfy the requirement to
relieve pressure on the system.

Thanks again for your help.
--
Peace,
BobJ

In article dS%zh.1678$Zp3.1335@trndny04, "Marilyn & Bob" wrote:

I e-mailed the manufacturer over the weekend and go a response first think
this morning (terrific service). They said that there was no need to do
anything except shut off the makeup water and removing the pressure on the
system) before precharging the system to 17 or 18 lbs. Since I have the
second expansion tank in parallel, it looks like simply allowing the boiler
to cool off (and shutting the water intake) will satisfy the requirement to
relieve pressure on the system.

You might want to double-check this with the folks at Amtrol, but, to me,
"removing the pressure on the system" means exactly that: *no* pressure above
ambient, i.e. *zero* psig. Shutting off the water intake, and allowing it to
cool off, reduces the pressure to the 12 psig precharge that you already have,
not to zero.

At a minimum, I think you're going to have to *also* open the bleed valves on
the top-floor radiators before you'll be able to get the pressure as high as
you need to -- otherwise, you're going to be trying to compress the air in
those radiators, too, and I think that won't work too well.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:y62Ah.9449

At a minimum, I think you're going to have to *also* open the bleed valves
on
the top-floor radiators

Or open a drain valve near the boiler.

In article ic2Ah.2452$H77.673@trndny08, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message news:y62Ah.9449

At a minimum, I think you're going to have to *also* open the bleed valves on
the top-floor radiators

Or open a drain valve near the boiler.

Well, he's going to need to open the bleed valves on the top-floor radiators
sometime, anyway, in order to get the air out of them -- might as well do it
at the start.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(Doug Miller) writes:

You might want to double-check this with the folks at Amtrol, but, to me,
"removing the pressure on the system" means exactly that: *no* pressure above
ambient, i.e. *zero* psig. Shutting off the water intake, and allowing it to
cool off, reduces the pressure to the 12 psig precharge that you already have,
not to zero.

This might not matter. If the control is currently regulating at 12
PSI, that means that the pressure tank under the control is essentially
empty of water at 12 PSI. Add more air, and you're adding air to about
the same volume of tank as you would with no pressure on the system.
It's probably not as accurate as dropping the system to zero pressure,
but that's going to require draining everything above basement level.

At a minimum, I think you're going to have to *also* open the bleed valves on
the top-floor radiators before you'll be able to get the pressure as high as
you need to -- otherwise, you're going to be trying to compress the air in
those radiators, too, and I think that won't work too well.

This shouldn't matter at all. Once the makeup valve is adjusted to
regulate at 18 PSI, it will let it water until system pressure is 18
PSI, period. It doesn't matter whether there is air trapped in the
top-floor radiators, since it will compress that air until it reaches a
few PSI (whatever pressure is left after the pressure drop due to
height). Then, at your leisure, you can open the bleed valves on those
top-floor radiators, and the makeup valve will supply additional water
to replace the air that escapes.

Dave

Thanks, that makes sense to me, too, especially since I have a second normal
type expansion tank in parallel. I waiting for my light duty Campbell
Hausfeld 3 Gallon Air Compressor to arrive (always can use a new tool) and
I'll make the adjustment.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
(Doug Miller) writes:

You might want to double-check this with the folks at Amtrol, but, to me,
"removing the pressure on the system" means exactly that: *no* pressure
above
ambient, i.e. *zero* psig. Shutting off the water intake, and allowing it
to
cool off, reduces the pressure to the 12 psig precharge that you already
have,
not to zero.

This might not matter. If the control is currently regulating at 12
PSI, that means that the pressure tank under the control is essentially
empty of water at 12 PSI. Add more air, and you're adding air to about
the same volume of tank as you would with no pressure on the system.
It's probably not as accurate as dropping the system to zero pressure,
but that's going to require draining everything above basement level.

At a minimum, I think you're going to have to *also* open the bleed valves
on
the top-floor radiators before you'll be able to get the pressure as high
as
you need to -- otherwise, you're going to be trying to compress the air in
those radiators, too, and I think that won't work too well.

This shouldn't matter at all. Once the makeup valve is adjusted to
regulate at 18 PSI, it will let it water until system pressure is 18
PSI, period. It doesn't matter whether there is air trapped in the
top-floor radiators, since it will compress that air until it reaches a
few PSI (whatever pressure is left after the pressure drop due to
height). Then, at your leisure, you can open the bleed valves on those
top-floor radiators, and the makeup valve will supply additional water
to replace the air that escapes.

Dave

handydave wrote:
handydave had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...em-192986-.htm
:
Hey Doug, Great advise

Might have been great advice, but another idiot post to a 3 year old
thread from the sucko company.

You are posting to a usenet newsgroup. The sucko company is a parasite.