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#1
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater.
I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#2
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Would you have well water? After filling for a while, would you be hearing more water pressure when the well pump kicks in? Do you get the same sound with just the hot water running?...cold water off. |
#3
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
avid_hiker wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Would you have well water? After filling for a while, would you be hearing more water pressure when the well pump kicks in? Do you get the same sound with just the hot water running?...cold water off. Have you every noticed how the pitch changes when you stir sugar into your coffee? |
#4
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article .com, "avid_hiker" wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Would you have well water? After filling for a while, would you be hearing more water pressure when the well pump kicks in? Do you get the same sound with just the hot water running?...cold water off. No well (or pumps) here. Regular city water supply. I've generally noticed it with the hot faucet full on and the cold faucet off. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#5
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article jVvph.138931$YV4.36926@edtnps89, Pason wrote:
avid_hiker wrote: Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? Would you have well water? After filling for a while, would you be hearing more water pressure when the well pump kicks in? Do you get the same sound with just the hot water running?...cold water off. Have you every noticed how the pitch changes when you stir sugar into your coffee? No, I only add coffee to my coffee ;-) But I suspect you're describing a different manifestation of the same effect. If so, the change is likely in the reverse direction because I presume the sugar would make the coffee more dense. Your data suggests the effect is indeed density related I think. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#6
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Follow my logic he
- Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. QED Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#7
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
In article .com, "avid_hiker" wrote: Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Would you have well water? After filling for a while, would you be hearing more water pressure when the well pump kicks in? Do you get the same sound with just the hot water running?...cold water off. No well (or pumps) here. Regular city water supply. I've generally noticed it with the hot faucet full on and the cold faucet off. I've always thought it was the sound of the rubber gasket in the faucet itself. As it heats up, it gets more pliable and thus its vibration characteristics would change. It may even pop in or out, reducing water flow.... Pure conjecture on my part, though. |
#8
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
CptDondo writes:
I've always thought it was the sound of the rubber gasket in the faucet itself. As it heats up, it gets more pliable and thus its vibration characteristics would change. It may even pop in or out, reducing water flow.... Pure conjecture on my part, though. I have no more authoritative a take, but am leaning toward it being the warmer faucet bits than the actual water modulating the sound as well. -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#9
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. I've noticed this as well. Regular copper pipe. Chris |
#10
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Chris Friesen wrote: - Malcolm Hoar wrote: - - - However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* - - to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly - - and I've been trying to figure out why. - - I've noticed this as well. Regular copper pipe. - - Chris Chris, What were you doing at Malcolm's house? |
#11
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Sounds like it's all about the diffence in bubble-density between hot
and cold water. Google "hot chocolate effect". Here are a couple of links: http://www.acoustics.org/press/143rd/Rossing.html and http://www.kilty.com/coffee.htm "Physicist Frank Crawford noticed this same effect in hot chocolate (American Journal of Physics, May 1982), and explained it as being due to the dependence of the speed of sound in water on the bubble density. What we are hearing are longitudinal oscillations of the water column. Crawford heard pitch changes of nearly three octaves in a tall glass cylinder. Gas bubbles reduce the speed of sound in the liquid, which lowers the fundamental mode of the liquid column. As the foam clears, the speed of sound rises and so does the pitch. Crawford called this 'the hot chocolate effect.' " --------------------------------------------------------------------- Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. |
#12
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
It's the sealing washer of the hot water valve that gets
soft when hot and muffles the vortex area around it. |
#13
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
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#14
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article , Ermalina wrote:
Sounds like it's all about the diffence in bubble-density between hot and cold water. Google "hot chocolate effect". Here are a couple of links: http://www.acoustics.org/press/143rd/Rossing.html and http://www.kilty.com/coffee.htm Bingo, we have a winner, I think. Thank you very much for the pointer. The hot water is saturated/supersaturated with dissolved air. The aggitation caused within the faucet and the pressure reduction on exit cause many bubbles to form. Hence a "softening" effect not unlike that created by an aerator. This seems very consistent with the nature of the sound change I've observed. Much more plausible than a simple density change effect. Mystery solved, to my complete satisfaction, at least! Back now to the regular schedule of electrical code issues and broken appliances and other problems for which the solution is caulk, duct tape and/or WD40... -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#15
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. And ice is the thickest water of all... |
#16
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Hot water is happy water. "Hi, ho, hi, ho, it's off to work we go..." |
#17
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ I have seen this with well water and with a water-main system. Cold water can hold more air in solution than hot water- Water under pressure holds more air than water at 'room pressure' The cold water that comes out 1st keeps its air in solution (at least for a longer time), the hot water has its air come out of solution as soon as the water gets past the valve. The noise is the air bubbles forming or bouncing around etc... Dave |
#19
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. How water is expanding parts in the valve, usually rubber washers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | Gary Player. | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- Joseph Meehan Dia 's Muire duit |
#20
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message ... My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? I had a faucet that would do thid. If you just turned the hot on a bit, when the sound changed, the flow dropped - almost to zero. I figured it was the expansion of parts in the valve since the effect was so obvious. Bob |
#21
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article ,
Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's definitely an observable phenomena. The effect of heating up the faucet valve may be more significant than you think. Certainly you have observed some types of faucets that greatly reduce the flow when hot water reaches them. Another thing I can think of that may account for a sound change, is that hot water has very little dissolved air in it compared to cold water. -- Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - |
#22
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote:
My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? Physics class was one of the most traumatic experiences of my life, and I didn't learn much there. But ... hot water is higher pressure, moving faster, higher frequency across the joints? Kind of like a steam whistle? |
#23
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:44:28 GMT, (Malcolm Hoar)
wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? I have definitely heard it in my shower. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
#24
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:04:43 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. And ice is the thickest water of all... Ice should actually be less thick, considering that water expands when freezing. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
#25
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:06:00 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote: Malcolm Hoar wrote: However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Hot water is happy water. "Hi, ho, hi, ho, it's off to work we go..." Sounds strange, but true in a way. Hot water is more excited. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
#26
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Mark Lloyd writes:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:04:43 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. And ice is the thickest water of all... Ice should actually be less thick, considering that water expands when freezing. Ah, but, (to continue this physical science mental masturbation session), it depends on how you define "thick." :-) Per mass of water, ice is going to be thicker dimensionally because of its lower density. Which was probably Bub's clever point. Best Regards, -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#27
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:44:28 GMT, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? I have definitely heard it in my shower. Yeah, there's little doubt in my mind now -- it's the bubbles. The hot water is supersaturated with dissolved air. It's agitated by passing through the faucet and then subjected to a pressure reduction. All that air is released in the form of bubbles. So what we hear is the difference between a stream of water and a stream of something approaching a foam -- very different sounds. I must say, solving this little mystery has been MOST satisfying ;-) -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#28
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
On 11 Jan 2007 11:34:36 -0800, "DerbyDad03"
wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. This already has most of the heat of hot water (the TOTALLY ARTIFICIAL) 0-point used in both Fahrenheit and Celsius temperature scales hides this fact. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. QED Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
#29
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:44:46 GMT, (Malcolm Hoar)
wrote: In article , Ermalina wrote: Sounds like it's all about the diffence in bubble-density between hot and cold water. Google "hot chocolate effect". Here are a couple of links: http://www.acoustics.org/press/143rd/Rossing.html and http://www.kilty.com/coffee.htm Bingo, we have a winner, I think. Thank you very much for the pointer. The hot water is saturated/supersaturated with dissolved air. The aggitation caused within the faucet and the pressure reduction on exit cause many bubbles to form. Hence a "softening" effect not unlike that created by an aerator. This seems very consistent with the nature of the sound change I've observed. Much more plausible than a simple density change effect. Mystery solved, to my complete satisfaction, at least! There is a big difference between 200 degree coffee water and 130 degree tap water. I wouldn't be to sure that the coffee effect is what you are hearing. |
#30
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article , wrote:
Mystery solved, to my complete satisfaction, at least! There is a big difference between 200 degree coffee water and 130 degree tap water. I wouldn't be to sure that the coffee effect is what you are hearing. Take a bottle or can of soda. Heat it up to 130 degrees, shake the container (c.f. water forced through faucet) and remove the cap (water exiting spout)... Yes, I realize that's an extreme case but there's little doubt in my mind that there will be significant bubble formation with the hot water faucet that could easily account for the change in sound. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#31
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Malcolm Hoar wrote: In article .com, wrote: Cold water can hold more air in solution than hot water- Water under pressure holds more air than water at 'room pressure' The cold water that comes out 1st keeps its air in solution (at least for a longer time), the hot water has its air come out of solution as soon as the water gets past the valve. Yup! The noise is the air bubbles forming or bouncing around etc... Well it's not a noise created by the bubbles per se. But I am persuaded that it's the bubbles that soften, dampen and change the pitch of the sound created by the running water. I have endured this "itch" for several years. It really does feel good to finally scratch it ;-) -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have had times when it was relatively quiet until the hot water arrived, so I think its supportable the bubbles themselves (during formation, or going through a restriction) make noise. Dave |
#32
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
In article om, wrote:
Well it's not a noise created by the bubbles per se. But I am persuaded that it's the bubbles that soften, dampen and change the pitch of the sound created by the running water. I have had times when it was relatively quiet until the hot water arrived, so I think its supportable the bubbles themselves (during formation, or going through a restriction) make noise. Hmmm, I don't think that's an effect I've observed but you make a good point. I can see how that might happen. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#33
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
Oh the pain! The heartache! My "thickness of water" theorem has been
disproved! And I thought I would be joining Mssrs. Smoot and Mather in Stockholm next year. Mark Lloyd wrote: On 11 Jan 2007 11:34:36 -0800, "DerbyDad03" wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. This already has most of the heat of hot water (the TOTALLY ARTIFICIAL) 0-point used in both Fahrenheit and Celsius temperature scales hides this fact. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. QED Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
#34
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
On 12 Jan 2007 13:33:58 -0600, (Todd H.) wrote:
Mark Lloyd writes: On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:04:43 -0600, "HeyBub" wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. And ice is the thickest water of all... Ice should actually be less thick, considering that water expands when freezing. Ah, but, (to continue this physical science mental masturbation session), it depends on how you define "thick." :-) Per mass of water, ice is going to be thicker dimensionally because of its lower density. Which was probably Bub's clever point. Best Regards, Sorry, I noticed the ambiguity too late. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov |
#35
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
I will follow your logic as soon as you tell me how much heat "weighs".
Heat is just the average kinetic energy of the molecules of the substance. More heat=more energy. More energy=larger distance between molecules. Larger distance between molecules=Less Density. That is the correct logic you are looking for. Doug DerbyDad03 wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. QED Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#36
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
how much heat "weighs".
I'll get back to you as soon as I finish reading the article that the following abstract describes: On the Weight of Heat and Thermal Equilibrium in General Relativity Richard C. Tolman Norman Bridge Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California Received 30 December 1929 In accordance with the special theory of relativity all forms of energy, including heat, have inertia and hence in accordance with the equivalence principle also have weight. The purpose of the present article is to investigate the thermodynamic implications of the idea that heat has weight. In particular an investigation is made to see if a temperature gradient is a necessary accompaniment of thermal equilibrium in a gravitational field, in order to prevent the flow of heat from regions of higher to those of lower gravitational potential. A preliminary non-rigorous treatment of this problem is first given by attempting to modify the classical thermodynamics only to the extent of associating with each intrinsic quantity of energy an additional amount of potential gravitational energy. In this way an expression is obtained for increase in equilibrium temperature with decrease in gravitational potential which, however, could in any case only be correct as a first approximation in a weak gravitational field. A discussion of the uncertainties and lack of rigor of this preliminary treatment is then given and the necessity pointed out for a rigorous treatment based on the principles of general relativity. A rigorous relativistic treatment is then undertaken using the extension of thermodynamics to general relativity previously presented by the author. The system to be treated is taken as a static spherical distribution of perfect fluid which has come to gravitational and thermodynamic equilibrium. The principles of relativistic mechanics are first applied to such a system in order to obtain results needed in the later work. And it is then shown that these mechanical principles themselves are sufficient to determine the temperature distribution as a function of potential in the simple case of black-body radiation. The principles of relativistic thermodynamics are then applied to this same case of pure black-body radiation and the same expression for temperature as a function of potential obtained by the thermodynamic as by the mechanical treatment. This may be regarded as giving some measure of check on the validity of the proposed relativistic thermodynamics. Following this, a thermodynamic treatment is given for the temperature distribution in the more general case of matter and radiation and a result found which harmonizes with that for radiation alone. A treatment is then given to the distribution of a perfect monatomic gas in a gravitational field both on the assumption that the total number of atoms must remain constant and on the assumption of the ready interconvertibility of matter and radiation. In the latter case the same dependence of concentration on temperature is obtained as was found by Stern and by the author for the case of flat space-time. Using a system of coordinates such that the line element for the sphere of fluid takes the form ds2=-eu(dr2+r2dθ2+r2sin2θdφ2)+eνdt2 the general result for the relation between gravitational potential and equilibrium temperature T0 as measured by a local observer in proper coordinates can be given by the equation d lnT0/dr=-1/2dν/dr This equation reduces in the case of a weak field to that obtained by the preliminary non-rigorous treatment, and gives a very small change of temperature with position in fields of ordinary intensity. The result, however, is one of great theoretical interest, since constant temperature throughout any system which has come to thermal equilibrium has hitherto been regarded as an inescapable thermodynamic conclusion. It is also not out of the question that the effect might sometime be of experimental or observational importance. ©1930 The American Physical Society Doug wrote: I will follow your logic as soon as you tell me how much heat "weighs". Heat is just the average kinetic energy of the molecules of the substance. More heat=more energy. More energy=larger distance between molecules. Larger distance between molecules=Less Density. That is the correct logic you are looking for. Doug DerbyDad03 wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. QED Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#37
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Silly plumbing (or maybe physics) question
DerbyDad03 wrote: how much heat "weighs". I'll get back to you as soon as I finish reading the article that the following abstract describes: On the Weight of Heat and Thermal Equilibrium in General Relativity Richard C. Tolman Norman Bridge Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California Received 30 December 1929 In accordance with the special theory of relativity all forms of energy, including heat, have inertia and hence in accordance with the equivalence principle also have weight. The purpose of the present article is to investigate the thermodynamic implications of the idea that heat has weight. In particular an investigation is made to see if a temperature gradient is a necessary accompaniment of thermal equilibrium in a gravitational field, in order to prevent the flow of heat from regions of higher to those of lower gravitational potential. A preliminary non-rigorous treatment of this problem is first given by attempting to modify the classical thermodynamics only to the extent of associating with each intrinsic quantity of energy an additional amount of potential gravitational energy. In this way an expression is obtained for increase in equilibrium temperature with decrease in gravitational potential which, however, could in any case only be correct as a first approximation in a weak gravitational field. A discussion of the uncertainties and lack of rigor of this preliminary treatment is then given and the necessity pointed out for a rigorous treatment based on the principles of general relativity. A rigorous relativistic treatment is then undertaken using the extension of thermodynamics to general relativity previously presented by the author. The system to be treated is taken as a static spherical distribution of perfect fluid which has come to gravitational and thermodynamic equilibrium. The principles of relativistic mechanics are first applied to such a system in order to obtain results needed in the later work. And it is then shown that these mechanical principles themselves are sufficient to determine the temperature distribution as a function of potential in the simple case of black-body radiation. The principles of relativistic thermodynamics are then applied to this same case of pure black-body radiation and the same expression for temperature as a function of potential obtained by the thermodynamic as by the mechanical treatment. This may be regarded as giving some measure of check on the validity of the proposed relativistic thermodynamics. Following this, a thermodynamic treatment is given for the temperature distribution in the more general case of matter and radiation and a result found which harmonizes with that for radiation alone. A treatment is then given to the distribution of a perfect monatomic gas in a gravitational field both on the assumption that the total number of atoms must remain constant and on the assumption of the ready interconvertibility of matter and radiation. In the latter case the same dependence of concentration on temperature is obtained as was found by Stern and by the author for the case of flat space-time. Using a system of coordinates such that the line element for the sphere of fluid takes the form ds2=-eu(dr2+r2dθ2+r2sin2θdφ2)+eνdt2 the general result for the relation between gravitational potential and equilibrium temperature T0 as measured by a local observer in proper coordinates can be given by the equation d lnT0/dr=-1/2dν/dr This equation reduces in the case of a weak field to that obtained by the preliminary non-rigorous treatment, and gives a very small change of temperature with position in fields of ordinary intensity. The result, however, is one of great theoretical interest, since constant temperature throughout any system which has come to thermal equilibrium has hitherto been regarded as an inescapable thermodynamic conclusion. It is also not out of the question that the effect might sometime be of experimental or observational importance. ©1930 The American Physical Society Doug wrote: I will follow your logic as soon as you tell me how much heat "weighs". Heat is just the average kinetic energy of the molecules of the substance. More heat=more energy. More energy=larger distance between molecules. Larger distance between molecules=Less Density. That is the correct logic you are looking for. Doug DerbyDad03 wrote: Follow my logic he - Cold is the absence of heat. - Cold water is just water. - Hot water is water with heat added. - Therefore, hot water is thicker than cold and squeezing it through the pipes makes a different sound. QED Malcolm Hoar wrote: My bathtub is located some distance from the water heater. I turn on the hot faucet only and wait. The tub starts to fill, with cold water initially. After a while, the water becomes hot. That's all fine and as expected. However, I can tell when the water is hot by *listening* to the flow. The sound of the water changes quite significantly and I've been trying to figure out why. Clearly, the hot water will be slightly less dense than the cold but I have a hard time imagining this would cause an audible change in the sound. Also the metal faucet will expand and that might change the sound of the water whistling through the valve. Again, it's hard imagine the thermal expansion of fractions of a millimeter causing such an audible effect -- think about the size of changes between two notes on a piano, guitar, flute or whatever. This happens in my current home but I have a vague feeling I've seen (heard) the effect at other homes too. Any other theories/inputs? Anyone else even observed this effect? -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reducible to each individual moving particle's mass going up a skosh due to its velocity? What is the actual peak (between collisions) velocity of, say, a molecule in some given solid at some given temp? Dave |
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