I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

Do you want your new furnace installed by a *qualified* technician?? or by
"Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob"??

I have 3 choices:

You have a lot more choices than just Bryant.

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

I am not going to comment about brands other than to say.... check Consumer
Reports.

Noon-Air wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

Do you want your new furnace installed by a *qualified* technician?? or by
"Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob"??

But, how do I know he's not qualified? He's licensed and insured, and
the company has been a member of the BBB since 1980 and has no
complaints in the last 3 years, the maximum reporting period.
Correction: has been in business for 26 years to be exact, not 15.

My belief is that someone doesn't necessarily have to be "certified
this" and "certified that" as long as they have the proper licenses,
insurance, and experience to do the work. The company obviously is
able to install and repair HVAC based on it's record. I'm just
speculating here. Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?


I have 3 choices:

You have a lot more choices than just Bryant.

You will see the 3rd one is Rheem. I also got a quote from a Lennox
dealer but wasn't terribly impressed. I just don't have time to get a
quote from every brand when it takes an hour each. Rheem is highly
rated according to CR.


Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

I am not going to comment about brands other than to say.... check Consumer
Reports.

writes:

Noon-Air wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

Do you want your new furnace installed by a *qualified* technician?? or by
"Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob"??

But, how do I know he's not qualified? He's licensed and insured, and
the company has been a member of the BBB since 1980 and has no
complaints in the last 3 years, the maximum reporting period.
Correction: has been in business for 26 years to be exact, not 15.

These are all plusses.

My belief is that someone doesn't necessarily have to be "certified
this" and "certified that" as long as they have the proper licenses,
insurance, and experience to do the work. The company obviously is
able to install and repair HVAC based on it's record. I'm just
speculating here. Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?

The only thing you may be missing is any assurance on continuing
education. These high efficiency furnaces have only come about in the
latter half of this company's career, and are a good deal more
complicated than the old stuff, and 13SEER A/C if you're doing it
surely present new things to know as well. One thing the certs might
potentially bring is some assurance that they are current with changes
that have occurred in hte industry lately. Others can answer whether
those certs actually have such continuing ed requirements.

But that said, I too am curious/dubious about the cert value. But it
certainly wouldn't be a strike against someone. And frankly, if
someone's name is on the business and I'm getting a 10 year warranty
from them and they've been in business for 26 years, I'm worrying if
they'll be around to honor that warranty, or who backs the warranty if
that shop is no longer in business when I need the work? You may have
this angle covered, but just wanted to toss it out there.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:
ther
those certs actually have such continuing ed requirements.

But that said, I too am curious/dubious about the cert value. But it
certainly wouldn't be a strike against someone. And frankly, if
someone's name is on the business and I'm getting a 10 year warranty
from them and they've been in business for 26 years, I'm worrying if
they'll be around to honor that warranty, or who backs the warranty if
that shop is no longer in business when I need the work? You may have
this angle covered, but just wanted to toss it out there.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

The said warranty is a manufacturer's (Rheem) warranty.

On 25 Sep 2006 18:00:20 -0700, wrote:

I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions.

I like things that are high tech. So I'd go for a Carrier Infinity system,
like: http://www.residential.carrier.com/
with the fancy thermostat/humidistat and web control.

Don www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

wrote:
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

Nate and Nadca equal Notagotdamnthing ................Certifications,
fancy trucks, fancy uniforms....fancy assed slick talking salesmen mean
nothing.....

Do your own research...talk to friends, family and coworkers....people
at church .... anyhow...talk to people who have had HVAC equipment
serviced and installed and find out who is reliable and honest and can
do you a good job.

Make sure they do a load calc on the house...make sure they get the
proper permits and inspections from the city or county.....

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.


Holy ****! Why are these prices so cheap? What corners are these hacks
cutting to quote prices so low?

wrote:

Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

The big places may need to charge higher since they must employ some
mediocre workers due to the volume they handle (like any large
company), and add in a rework fee to begin with to cover themselves.
The best and worse work is done by small family own businesses. The
simpler the furnace the less risk you will encounter now and in the
future regardless of the choice. Talking to few customers of the big
contractors is not of much help as the installation quality can vary.

writes:
wrote:

Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

The big places may need to charge higher since they must employ some
mediocre workers due to the volume they handle (like any large
company), and add in a rework fee to begin with to cover themselves.
The best and worse work is done by small family own businesses. The
simpler the furnace the less risk you will encounter now and in the
future regardless of the choice. Talking to few customers of the big
contractors is not of much help as the installation quality can
vary.

Okay I'll bite. How does a bad furnace installation typically evidence
iself?

The culture of "pay for good installation" is rich certainly, and
perhaps it's justified. On the other hand, is this beingf overblown a
bit? How much really can go wrong?

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

For the purpose of limiting the discussion, let's leave system sizing
out of the equation because a) assume we're replacing an existing
system that the owner would notice is either evenly/adequately heating
or cooling the house or not, backed up by b) assume the homeowner has
gotten several quotes and has reviewed them to see whether all bidders
have quoted consistent sizes c) the folks doing the estimates are
doing the sizing, and the actual installer is showing up with a given
size unit already in the truck.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:
writes:
wrote:

Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.
The big places may need to charge higher since they must employ some
mediocre workers due to the volume they handle (like any large
company), and add in a rework fee to begin with to cover themselves.
The best and worse work is done by small family own businesses. The
simpler the furnace the less risk you will encounter now and in the
future regardless of the choice. Talking to few customers of the big
contractors is not of much help as the installation quality can
vary.

Okay I'll bite. How does a bad furnace installation typically evidence
iself?


First sign is when your home becomes airborn and the sound of Sirens.


The culture of "pay for good installation" is rich certainly, and
perhaps it's justified. On the other hand, is this beingf overblown a
bit? How much really can go wrong?

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

For the purpose of limiting the discussion, let's leave system sizing
out of the equation because a) assume we're replacing an existing
system that the owner would notice is either evenly/adequately heating
or cooling the house or not, backed up by b) assume the homeowner has
gotten several quotes and has reviewed them to see whether all bidders
have quoted consistent sizes c) the folks doing the estimates are
doing the sizing, and the actual installer is showing up with a given
size unit already in the truck.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

On 26 Sep 2006 00:01:49 -0500, (Todd H.) wrote:

writes:
wrote:

Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

The big places may need to charge higher since they must employ some
mediocre workers due to the volume they handle (like any large
company), and add in a rework fee to begin with to cover themselves.
The best and worse work is done by small family own businesses. The
simpler the furnace the less risk you will encounter now and in the
future regardless of the choice. Talking to few customers of the big
contractors is not of much help as the installation quality can
vary.

Okay I'll bite. How does a bad furnace installation typically evidence
iself?

The culture of "pay for good installation" is rich certainly, and
perhaps it's justified. On the other hand, is this beingf overblown a
bit? How much really can go wrong?

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

For the purpose of limiting the discussion, let's leave system sizing
out of the equation because a) assume we're replacing an existing
system that the owner would notice is either evenly/adequately heating
or cooling the house or not, backed up by b) assume the homeowner has
gotten several quotes and has reviewed them to see whether all bidders
have quoted consistent sizes c) the folks doing the estimates are
doing the sizing, and the actual installer is showing up with a given
size unit already in the truck.

Best Regards,

Todd,
I guess you'd like fries with that?
Bubba

"Todd H." wrote in message ...
writes:
wrote:

Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

The big places may need to charge higher since they must employ some
mediocre workers due to the volume they handle (like any large
company), and add in a rework fee to begin with to cover themselves.
The best and worse work is done by small family own businesses. The
simpler the furnace the less risk you will encounter now and in the
future regardless of the choice. Talking to few customers of the big
contractors is not of much help as the installation quality can
vary.

Okay I'll bite. How does a bad furnace installation typically evidence
iself?

It won't show up until its too late.

The culture of "pay for good installation" is rich certainly, and
perhaps it's justified. On the other hand, is this beingf overblown a
bit? How much really can go wrong?

What can go wrong with a bad doctor, or a bad mechanic, or a bad cook,
or......

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

You want pictures??

For the purpose of limiting the discussion, let's leave system sizing
out of the equation because a) assume we're replacing an existing
system that the owner would notice is either evenly/adequately heating
or cooling the house or not, backed up by b) assume the homeowner has
gotten several quotes and has reviewed them to see whether all bidders
have quoted consistent sizes c) the folks doing the estimates are
doing the sizing, and the actual installer is showing up with a given
size unit already in the truck.

sizing?? whats to say that your furnace was sized correctly in the first
place??

"Noon-Air" writes:

What can go wrong with a bad doctor, or a bad mechanic, or a bad
cook,

Those are fairly self explanatory. None of these folks are installing
brand new HVAC systems though.

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

You want pictures??

Not necessary, but hey if ya got em.... I would like the cult
followers of the "good installation is more important than a brand
selected" religion to give some real examples of the actual perils of
a bad/rookie installation.

For the purpose of limiting the discussion, let's leave system
sizing out of the equation because a) assume we're replacing an
existing system that the owner would notice is either
evenly/adequately heating or cooling the house or not, backed up
by b) assume the homeowner has gotten several quotes and has
reviewed them to see whether all bidders have quoted consistent
sizes c) the folks doing the estimates are doing the sizing, and
the actual installer is showing up with a given size unit already
in the truck.

sizing?? whats to say that your furnace was sized correctly in the first
place??

Nothing. Which is why b) and c) are also assumed as backups.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

I don't know how this ranks, but I had to fix a friend's furnace when she bought
a couple of years ago:

The installer had put the filter holder on the side of the furnace opposite the
ducts. The filter was right up against the wall of the furnace. I had to
remove the filter track and re-install it on the side where the ducts were.
There were a bunch of little bits to tidy up in the process.

My guess was that it was installed by someone who'd never seen a furnace before.
Since the house was only a few years old, it was the original property
developer's team of "expert builders". The warranty had expired a couple of
years earlier, otherwise I would have made an amusing phone call on my friend's
behalf.

Mike

Michael Daly writes:

Todd H. wrote:

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

I don't know how this ranks, but I had to fix a friend's furnace when
she bought a couple of years ago:

The installer had put the filter holder on the side of the furnace
opposite the ducts. The filter was right up against the wall of the
furnace. I had to remove the filter track and re-install it on the
side where the ducts were. There were a bunch of little bits to tidy
up in the process.

LMAO...oh my. Damn, there really are stone dumbass people in every
profession.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

"Todd H." wrote in message ...
Michael Daly writes:

Todd H. wrote:

What are the top 10 things that folks have actually seen (or heard
directly from someone who saw, no hypotheticals please) screwed up by
prior installers, and the potential consequences of those screwups?

I don't know how this ranks, but I had to fix a friend's furnace when
she bought a couple of years ago:

The installer had put the filter holder on the side of the furnace
opposite the ducts. The filter was right up against the wall of the
furnace. I had to remove the filter track and re-install it on the
side where the ducts were. There were a bunch of little bits to tidy
up in the process.

LMAO...oh my. Damn, there really are stone dumbass people in every
profession.

As long as your writing a book on dumbasses in every profession, what is
*your* profession??

I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

We have a older version of the Bryant 90 plus installed in 89' over the
years its been a decent furnace, there were several problems with it mostly
due to it being an early model of the super high efficiency furnaces. We
have replaced the heat exchange box from it corroding from moisture buildup
and bad drainage design, new model of box isn't supposed to do that. normal
wear and tear has seen the blower motor replaced after 6 years, the inducer
motor replaced after about 8 years, the venturies clogged up and replaced
after about 12 years, after the last service call in 2002 for the venturies
we started getting the repair company out for regular yearly service call in
the fall to clean and check the furnace, year before last we signed a
prearranged deal where they come out twice a year to check before each
season fall and spring for heat and a/c and overall checkup of the system.
We have a 591a model with air conditioner added at time of install. Couple
things you may want to consider is the guy that normally comes out and works
on our unit says that most furnaces are built by only a couple of companies,
forgot who he said bryant was made by but was supposed to be reputable brand
name you pay for the name when you go with courier, lennox, sears whatever.
At the time of our purchase they were just coming out with the ultra
efficient like 90% or higher think ours is like 85% efficient, but the super
efficient ones had nothing but problems. oh some things to consider
depending on type of house maybe adding a attic powered fan, we did reduced
a/c usage somewhat in summer or a whole house fan, have heard nice things
about those as well. If you do not get a/c with your unit you can later add
on a heat pump / a/c unit, splitting your heating source to gas / electric,
also heard good things about that set up depending on electical costs in
your area. heat pumps work to about 40 degrees i think.

Good luck on your choice.

NATE and NADCA shows you the company stays on top of continuing
education. Rheem is better than Bryant long term. However for each
particular model the consumer reports suggestion was a good one.

Please understand this is a critical choice becuase you will have to
live with the heating system for a long time and it will either be
heaven or hell. The real trick is the evaluation of your needs based on
the square footage of your home and just how well its insulated. This
gives the contracor a formula to follow in order to make what they call
a heat load calculation. This essentially estimates the most heat you
will need during the coldest day of the heating season.

The goal is not to go to big with a unit since that will reduce the
actual efficiencies of the unit and you will be using more fuel with
the constant starts and stops. The goal is to have the unit on the
coldest day run for 45 minutes. This is like higheway mileage vs city
stop and go.

So bigger is not better. Its critical to get the right guy doing the
evaluation and the install. In order to check the BBB was a good choice
as is your state department of consumer protection.

Here's the inside scoop. You need to ask how long the techs have been
working for the company and the length of time they have been in the
business. This tells you 2 things. 1.) If the techs have been with the
company a long time it shows the company is strong and is run well. If
they have not it means constant turnover due to dissention in the
ranks. A minimum of 5 years. 2.) An experianced tech is better then a
newly minted one.

Check to see how they maintain their vehicals inside and out. If it's
messy on the inside beware,

Visit their office. If the inside of the office is in chaos RUN.

Essentially what I'm suggeting is see how they run and maintain their
business because thats what they will be doing with your heating
system.

I would also ask for referrals of past customers and I WOULD CALL them.
You can ask about installation, how clean they were, how long it took.
Any problems after or durring the install. ect..

For more details on how to choose a heating system whether it runs by
gas or oil you may want to visit http://www.heatingoilhelp.com Its a
site that focuses on oil heated systems but a lot of the information
also transfers to the gas side.

John
http://www.HeatingOilHelp.com
If you like my suggestions please visit the site and rate me if you
would. Thanks



wrote:
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

On 26 Sep 2006 06:53:41 -0700, "jbogs" wrote:

Here's the inside scoop. You need to ask how long the techs have been
working for the company and the length of time they have been in the
business. This tells you 2 things. 1.) If the techs have been with the
company a long time it shows the company is strong and is run well. If

Or it means the company sucks, rips people off, and the
ex-felon druggy 'tech' that's been there 20 years can't get a job
anywhere else, and is drinking buddies with the owner.

Check to see how they maintain their vehicals inside and out. If it's
messy on the inside beware,

Bull****. The worst techs sometimes keep the cleanest trucks.
Because they have nothing better to do, and that's the only thing they
can do right, is wash a car.

Visit their office. If the inside of the office is in chaos RUN.

If they're good, a busy office is likely.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Lets face it. A clean organized area is a clean organized mind. If the
"tech" is drinking buddies with the owner than the place is a mess to.
I dont know any druggies that keep a clean anything.

If there good and they cant keep their arms around keeping the office
clean and organized it means that chances are they are understaffed
have no proceedures in place and are burning the candles at both ends.
If they have time to keep a clean office it means they are organised,
efficent and have good employees.

Regardless if its a mess it shows poor skills no matter how you slice
it. Why so critical did I hit a nerve with you?

Impressions count and the goal here is to help the person find a good
company not be cranky right?


wrote:
On 26 Sep 2006 06:53:41 -0700, "jbogs" wrote:

Here's the inside scoop. You need to ask how long the techs have been
working for the company and the length of time they have been in the
business. This tells you 2 things. 1.) If the techs have been with the
company a long time it shows the company is strong and is run well. If

Or it means the company sucks, rips people off, and the
ex-felon druggy 'tech' that's been there 20 years can't get a job
anywhere else, and is drinking buddies with the owner.

Check to see how they maintain their vehicals inside and out. If it's
messy on the inside beware,

Bull****. The worst techs sometimes keep the cleanest trucks.
Because they have nothing better to do, and that's the only thing they
can do right, is wash a car.

Visit their office. If the inside of the office is in chaos RUN.

If they're good, a busy office is likely.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

On 27 Sep 2006 21:44:06 -0700, "jbogs" wrote:

Lets face it. A clean organized area is a clean organized mind. If the

Let's face it - a clean organized work area is a sure sign of
an anal-retentive with nothing better to do.

"tech" is drinking buddies with the owner than the place is a mess to.
I dont know any druggies that keep a clean anything.

If there good and they cant keep their arms around keeping the office
clean and organized it means that chances are they are understaffed
have no proceedures in place and are burning the candles at both ends.
If they have time to keep a clean office it means they are organised,
efficent and have good employees.

Or it means they have nothing better to do, or it means they
are thiefs that know some people are impressed by a neat office.

Regardless if its a mess it shows poor skills no matter how you slice
it. Why so critical did I hit a nerve with you?

No, I just called 'bull****' on your nonsense. You're one of
those who thinks techs should look like little soldiers on parade
review, neatly ironed seams in their pants, fresh haircut, just got
out of the shower, 2 spare uniforms in the truck in case god forbid
they get dirty during the day, sparkling chrome on the vehicle, inside
looks like an advertisement for a perfect dream service truck. At any
given moment throughout the day, they look like they're getting ready
to pose for a company photoshoot, and like they haven't done any
actual work yet. Which is likely true. HVAC/R work is like sex - if
you do it right, it's a little bit dirty.

I've worked with guys like that, and invariably, they were
****ing incompetent. I've had a few fired for it. The only thing
they were good at was washing their truck and ironing their pants.
They spent more time in front of the mirror than they did making sure
they hadn't missed anything on a service call.

Impressions count and the goal here is to help the person find a good
company not be cranky right?

I have no goal here at all except to say whatever the hell I
please. This ain't my workplace, and no one's paying me here.


--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

wrote in message
...
I have no goal here at all except to say whatever the hell I
please. This ain't my workplace, and no one's paying me here.


You don't collect your minion check?

Where's that ****ing shop steward...Prolly
nailin the dispatcher again.

Interestingly I am getting a furnace quote from home depot today. Gas
forced air, 90+. I am wondering about one speed vs 2 speed vs variable
speed furnaces?

Will get quote on air but probably wait till spring for install matter
of $

Having been thru credit card hell we DONT go there ever again

jbogs wrote:
The goal is not to go to big with a unit since that will reduce the
actual efficiencies of the unit and you will be using more fuel with
the constant starts and stops. The goal is to have the unit on the
coldest day run for 45 minutes. This is like higheway mileage vs city
stop and go.

So bigger is not better.

I don't think a car analogy is a good one. Imagine walking into a car
dealership and saying I want model X, with options Y and engine Z and
all of a sudden getting interrupted by the dealer saying, sorry, you
can't choose the engine, I will pick the engine for you that will
maximize your gas mileage and give you barely adequate performance
under your worse case load conditions (i.e., you will have to floor the
gas pedal to maintain 55 mph), I don't think many consumers would be
happy to hear that...

Sorry for the missunderstanding. What I was trying to say didnt reflect
buying a system like you would buy a car but evaluating the function ie
efficiency of the system using the analogy of fuel milage. For example
if you get a unit that is bigger than you actually need and it short
cycles (like city driving) you will get less efficiency per gallon
(less miles per gallon) then getting a unit that meets the heat load
specs so when it runs, it runs longer (like highway milage) and is more
efficient. This does not mean just adequate performance what it does
mean is the unit should not be oversized or your going to be wasting
yuor money on the unit and wasting you money on fuel.

Hope that helps
John
http://www.HeatingOilHelp.com and

http://www.HomeHeatingOilPrices.com


wrote:
jbogs wrote:
The goal is not to go to big with a unit since that will reduce the
actual efficiencies of the unit and you will be using more fuel with
the constant starts and stops. The goal is to have the unit on the
coldest day run for 45 minutes. This is like higheway mileage vs city
stop and go.

So bigger is not better.

I don't think a car analogy is a good one. Imagine walking into a car
dealership and saying I want model X, with options Y and engine Z and
all of a sudden getting interrupted by the dealer saying, sorry, you
can't choose the engine, I will pick the engine for you that will
maximize your gas mileage and give you barely adequate performance
under your worse case load conditions (i.e., you will have to floor the
gas pedal to maintain 55 mph), I don't think many consumers would be
happy to hear that...

Use only a MASTER SPECIALIST for your HVAC service!

http://www.hvacexcellence.org/masterspcialist.htm







"jbogs" wrote in message
ups.com...
NATE and NADCA shows you the company stays on top of continuing
education. Rheem is better than Bryant long term. However for each
particular model the consumer reports suggestion was a good one.

Please understand this is a critical choice becuase you will have to
live with the heating system for a long time and it will either be
heaven or hell. The real trick is the evaluation of your needs based on
the square footage of your home and just how well its insulated. This
gives the contracor a formula to follow in order to make what they call
a heat load calculation. This essentially estimates the most heat you
will need during the coldest day of the heating season.

The goal is not to go to big with a unit since that will reduce the
actual efficiencies of the unit and you will be using more fuel with
the constant starts and stops. The goal is to have the unit on the
coldest day run for 45 minutes. This is like higheway mileage vs city
stop and go.

So bigger is not better. Its critical to get the right guy doing the
evaluation and the install. In order to check the BBB was a good choice
as is your state department of consumer protection.

Here's the inside scoop. You need to ask how long the techs have been
working for the company and the length of time they have been in the
business. This tells you 2 things. 1.) If the techs have been with the
company a long time it shows the company is strong and is run well. If
they have not it means constant turnover due to dissention in the
ranks. A minimum of 5 years. 2.) An experianced tech is better then a
newly minted one.

Check to see how they maintain their vehicals inside and out. If it's
messy on the inside beware,

Visit their office. If the inside of the office is in chaos RUN.

Essentially what I'm suggeting is see how they run and maintain their
business because thats what they will be doing with your heating
system.

I would also ask for referrals of past customers and I WOULD CALL them.
You can ask about installation, how clean they were, how long it took.
Any problems after or durring the install. ect..

For more details on how to choose a heating system whether it runs by
gas or oil you may want to visit http://www.heatingoilhelp.com Its a
site that focuses on oil heated systems but a lot of the information
also transfers to the gas side.

John
http://www.HeatingOilHelp.com
If you like my suggestions please visit the site and rate me if you
would. Thanks



wrote:
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

As the owner of a company that has ALL service techs
NATE certified, and being NATE certified myself, I may
be a bit prejudiced.

I will, however, say that anyone who has passed the
NATE test has a proven record of technical competence.

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Cheap in my part of the country-


Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474

Hardly covers my costs-


Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299

Again, hardly covers my costs-

Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

Go to the NATE web site and read.

She-Hate-Me wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Cheap in my part of the country-


Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474

Hardly covers my costs-


Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299

Again, hardly covers my costs-


This I don't understand. These are a random sampling of 3 contractors,
two very well known with all the certifications. And these prices are
cheap??

is there a review website somwehere for new furnaces to compare them

On 26 Sep 2006 14:57:38 -0700, wrote:


She-Hate-Me wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Cheap in my part of the country-


Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474

Hardly covers my costs-


Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299

Again, hardly covers my costs-


This I don't understand. These are a random sampling of 3 contractors,
two very well known with all the certifications. And these prices are
cheap??

You dont understand there mr worldly. You live in one area of the
planet. We all live in another. You dont think we all charge the same,
do you? The cost of living is not the same in every area of the
planet. It varies greatly. So does hvac installation. If you want more
prices, get more estimates.
Bubba
Bubba

"Bubba" wrote in message
...
On 26 Sep 2006 14:57:38 -0700, wrote:


She-Hate-Me wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Cheap in my part of the country-


Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474

Hardly covers my costs-


Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299

Again, hardly covers my costs-


This I don't understand. These are a random sampling of 3 contractors,
two very well known with all the certifications. And these prices are
cheap??

You dont understand there mr worldly. You live in one area of the
planet. We all live in another. You dont think we all charge the same,
do you? The cost of living is not the same in every area of the
planet. It varies greatly. So does hvac installation. If you want more
prices, get more estimates.
Bubba
Bubba

Even here in south Mississippi, those prices are at least $1000 low.....
That furnace *starts* at $4,000 before you add any extra bells and whistles

Bubba wrote:
On 26 Sep 2006 14:57:38 -0700, wrote:

permits
$3299

Again, hardly covers my costs-


This I don't understand. These are a random sampling of 3 contractors,
two very well known with all the certifications. And these prices are
cheap??

You dont understand there mr worldly. You live in one area of the
planet. We all live in another. You dont think we all charge the same,
do you? The cost of living is not the same in every area of the
planet. It varies greatly. So does hvac installation. If you want more
prices, get more estimates.
Bubba
Bubba

I'm going on the assumption that anyone commenting on prices are in the
US. Now if they're in Canada, I could see how the prices seem low. I
did quote in dollars. But one guy said he's in Mississippi and his
cost would be at least 1000 more. I never thought of the city I live
in as having a low cost of living. As a matter of fact, I did some
quick checking and it's average or more than average. Labor here is
probably not cheap, relatively speaking (Michigan). I could be wrong.

wrote:
I'm getting my furnace replaced and have some questions. How important
is it for the contractor to be NATE or NADCA certified? The more
expensive, big places really push these certifications. Or is this
more of a sales pitch than anything?

I have 3 choices:

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning (I need it)
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$4360

Bryant Plus 90t
5 year parts/2 year labor warranty
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning still to be added to price, probably $300-400 more
very well established company with all the fancy certifications and
guarantees
permits
$3474 (plus duct cleaning)

Rheem RGRK
10 year parts/labor
humidifier
media filter
duct cleaning
smaller company, in business for over 15 years, owner seems very
competent
permits
$3299


Is there anything good/bad about either furnace? Comments? I know the
bigger places might offer more piece of mind, but the price seems
pretty steep.

Hmmm,
None of aboe for me!

anyone have a link for web reviews of furnaces?

wrote in message
oups.com...
anyone have a link for web reviews of furnaces?


http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/h...view/index.htm

wrote in message
oups.com...
anyone have a link for web reviews of furnaces?



Yes