Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
I'm curious on opinions from pro's of the water test for residential heat exchangers advocated by Ellis Prach of http://www.heatexchangerexperts.com/ In this test, the tech pulls the blower, douses the exchanger with a water solution from a large sprayer, and then looks inside the combustion area for water penetration. If there's water getting in, they reason, you have a breached heat exchanger that they recommend replacing it. I'm suspicious of this Prach guy though... a self-proclaimed heat exchanger expert, and evidently pontificates--in his seminars he holds all over the country training HVAC techs--that he can even find leaks in a heat exchanger that's 3 years old. His seminars are apparently quite hands-on and he travels with several actual heat exchangers and demonstrates trouble spots on each. I've talked to two attendees and they concur on these points. So, do y'all think this is a worthwhile diagnostic test that correlates with real safety issues, or just a great way to sell new furnaces and make this Prach guy rich giving seminars from companies so willing to have him teach techs to find leaks in 3 year old heat exchangers? The whole thing seems to hinge on the assumption that if the heat exchanger isn't water tight, then it isn't air tight, and the further assumption that pressures inside the furnace are such that combusion byproducts might actually make it into the airflow of such leakage areas. My own situation that motivates the question: a tech (from a significant, well-respected company in Chicagoland that I've used for years because they invest in training their techs rather well) had attended a seminar by this man recently, and had come to give my 15 year old Carrier furnace the annual cleaning and once over. Perhaps it was the age of the furnace, or the rust on it from the prior owner not occupying hte house for the prior two years, but soething compelled him to drop the blower and perform this new test he'd learned recently. Now, this is a furnace that had a visual inspection and tested CO free on all chambers last November for whatever that's worth. I understand that for CO to form and get into ducts you need a lot more than an HX breach. Personally, I may go ahead and replace the furnace based on age and the suspicion alone, and enjoy the comfort and efficiency afforded by a newer 2-stage and/or variable speed furnace since my time horizons in this home are long enough to get the payback. But I remain curious what folks think about this test all the same, and the likelihood that my current furnace _really_ has a safety concern. Thanks in advance for any constructive thoughts or discussion. Best Regards, -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#3
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
Bubba writes:
Seems you've already made up your mind but I'll give you my .03 worth. I previously worked for a national hvac company that adopted this practice like it came from the bible. This company was also into high pressure sales practices and tactics. One little twist they added to the test was to make sure the heat exchanger was nice and hot right before they started spraying water on the heat exchanger. Common sense tells you that hot thin metal and cold water are not a good combination for a homeowners heat exchanger. CO tests, detectors and visual inspections and cameras are a more advanced way of checking heat exchangers. Bubba Thankfully this company didn't do that! Since it's still a bit A/C season, he didn't want to run the furnace to put the HX through that thermal stress, but he did clean the burners and everything and then was curious enough to do the inspection. It was done with a room temp HX. He did a visual with mirror but I don't think I saw a camera involved. Tis interesting though how many different ways there seem to be to check HX's. -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#4
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
1) I thought combustion chambers were supposed to run dry. Isn't
adding a bunch of water a rust hazzard? 2) if you're getting zero monoxide, why are you continuing to test? Trying to find a reason to think there is a leak? 3) The quote on the manual page that "most of the furnaces had a crack" only means to me that he's found an indicator that shows positive on everyone's furnace 4) solution, eh? Some kind of detergent stuff that really soaks through? Doesn't mean that flue gasses go the other way. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on this "new" technique. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "Todd H." wrote in message ... I'm curious on opinions from pro's of the water test for residential heat exchangers advocated by Ellis Prach of http://www.heatexchangerexperts.com/ In this test, the tech pulls the blower, douses the exchanger with a water solution from a large sprayer, and then looks inside the combustion area for water penetration. If there's water getting in, they reason, you have a breached heat exchanger that they recommend replacing it. I'm suspicious of this Prach guy though... a self-proclaimed heat exchanger expert, and evidently pontificates--in his seminars he holds all over the country training HVAC techs--that he can even find leaks in a heat exchanger that's 3 years old. His seminars are apparently quite hands-on and he travels with several actual heat exchangers and demonstrates trouble spots on each. I've talked to two attendees and they concur on these points. So, do y'all think this is a worthwhile diagnostic test that correlates with real safety issues, or just a great way to sell new furnaces and make this Prach guy rich giving seminars from companies so willing to have him teach techs to find leaks in 3 year old heat exchangers? The whole thing seems to hinge on the assumption that if the heat exchanger isn't water tight, then it isn't air tight, and the further assumption that pressures inside the furnace are such that combusion byproducts might actually make it into the airflow of such leakage areas. My own situation that motivates the question: a tech (from a significant, well-respected company in Chicagoland that I've used for years because they invest in training their techs rather well) had attended a seminar by this man recently, and had come to give my 15 year old Carrier furnace the annual cleaning and once over. Perhaps it was the age of the furnace, or the rust on it from the prior owner not occupying hte house for the prior two years, but soething compelled him to drop the blower and perform this new test he'd learned recently. Now, this is a furnace that had a visual inspection and tested CO free on all chambers last November for whatever that's worth. I understand that for CO to form and get into ducts you need a lot more than an HX breach. Personally, I may go ahead and replace the furnace based on age and the suspicion alone, and enjoy the comfort and efficiency afforded by a newer 2-stage and/or variable speed furnace since my time horizons in this home are long enough to get the payback. But I remain curious what folks think about this test all the same, and the likelihood that my current furnace _really_ has a safety concern. Thanks in advance for any constructive thoughts or discussion. Best Regards, -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#5
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 12:05:25 GMT, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: 1) I thought combustion chambers were supposed to run dry. Isn't adding a bunch of water a rust hazzard? 2) if you're getting zero monoxide, why are you continuing to test? Trying to find a reason to think there is a leak? Stormy, Once again you prove your complete lack of knowledge in the hvac industry. Here is one for you to suck on for a while. You do know that you can have a heat exchanger with a hole in it big enough to put both of your fists through and still not register any CO reading, dont you? Of course not, I didnt think so. So would you let that customer continue to run their fossil fuel appliance with that large of a hole in it that wasl correctly registering a "0" CO reading? You REALLY shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a customers appliances. You are scary and dangerous. Bubba 3) The quote on the manual page that "most of the furnaces had a crack" only means to me that he's found an indicator that shows positive on everyone's furnace 4) solution, eh? Some kind of detergent stuff that really soaks through? Doesn't mean that flue gasses go the other way. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on this "new" technique. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . "Todd H." wrote in message ... I'm curious on opinions from pro's of the water test for residential heat exchangers advocated by Ellis Prach of http://www.heatexchangerexperts.com/ In this test, the tech pulls the blower, douses the exchanger with a water solution from a large sprayer, and then looks inside the combustion area for water penetration. If there's water getting in, they reason, you have a breached heat exchanger that they recommend replacing it. I'm suspicious of this Prach guy though... a self-proclaimed heat exchanger expert, and evidently pontificates--in his seminars he holds all over the country training HVAC techs--that he can even find leaks in a heat exchanger that's 3 years old. His seminars are apparently quite hands-on and he travels with several actual heat exchangers and demonstrates trouble spots on each. I've talked to two attendees and they concur on these points. So, do y'all think this is a worthwhile diagnostic test that correlates with real safety issues, or just a great way to sell new furnaces and make this Prach guy rich giving seminars from companies so willing to have him teach techs to find leaks in 3 year old heat exchangers? The whole thing seems to hinge on the assumption that if the heat exchanger isn't water tight, then it isn't air tight, and the further assumption that pressures inside the furnace are such that combusion byproducts might actually make it into the airflow of such leakage areas. My own situation that motivates the question: a tech (from a significant, well-respected company in Chicagoland that I've used for years because they invest in training their techs rather well) had attended a seminar by this man recently, and had come to give my 15 year old Carrier furnace the annual cleaning and once over. Perhaps it was the age of the furnace, or the rust on it from the prior owner not occupying hte house for the prior two years, but soething compelled him to drop the blower and perform this new test he'd learned recently. Now, this is a furnace that had a visual inspection and tested CO free on all chambers last November for whatever that's worth. I understand that for CO to form and get into ducts you need a lot more than an HX breach. Personally, I may go ahead and replace the furnace based on age and the suspicion alone, and enjoy the comfort and efficiency afforded by a newer 2-stage and/or variable speed furnace since my time horizons in this home are long enough to get the payback. But I remain curious what folks think about this test all the same, and the likelihood that my current furnace _really_ has a safety concern. Thanks in advance for any constructive thoughts or discussion. Best Regards, |
#6
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
"Todd H." wrote in message ... I'm curious on opinions from pro's of the water test for residential heat exchangers advocated by Ellis Prach of http://www.heatexchangerexperts.com/ In this test, the tech pulls the blower, douses the exchanger with a water solution from a large sprayer, and then looks inside the combustion area for water penetration. If there's water getting in, they reason, you have a breached heat exchanger that they recommend replacing it. I'm suspicious of this Prach guy though... a self-proclaimed heat exchanger expert, and evidently pontificates--in his seminars he holds all over the country training HVAC techs--that he can even find leaks in a heat exchanger that's 3 years old. His seminars are apparently quite hands-on and he travels with several actual heat exchangers and demonstrates trouble spots on each. I've talked to two attendees and they concur on these points. So, do y'all think this is a worthwhile diagnostic test that correlates with real safety issues, or just a great way to sell new furnaces and make this Prach guy rich giving seminars from companies so willing to have him teach techs to find leaks in 3 year old heat exchangers? The whole thing seems to hinge on the assumption that if the heat exchanger isn't water tight, then it isn't air tight, and the further assumption that pressures inside the furnace are such that combusion byproducts might actually make it into the airflow of such leakage areas. My own situation that motivates the question: a tech (from a significant, well-respected company in Chicagoland that I've used for years because they invest in training their techs rather well) had attended a seminar by this man recently, and had come to give my 15 year old Carrier furnace the annual cleaning and once over. Perhaps it was the age of the furnace, or the rust on it from the prior owner not occupying hte house for the prior two years, but soething compelled him to drop the blower and perform this new test he'd learned recently. Now, this is a furnace that had a visual inspection and tested CO free on all chambers last November for whatever that's worth. I understand that for CO to form and get into ducts you need a lot more than an HX breach. Personally, I may go ahead and replace the furnace based on age and the suspicion alone, and enjoy the comfort and efficiency afforded by a newer 2-stage and/or variable speed furnace since my time horizons in this home are long enough to get the payback. But I remain curious what folks think about this test all the same, and the likelihood that my current furnace _really_ has a safety concern. Thanks in advance for any constructive thoughts or discussion. Best Regards, -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ Could be fine. Maybe, maybe not. |
#7
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
"Oscar_Lives" writes:
Could be fine. Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, that's what I suspect too. This test is a dealer's wet (literally) dream, but I suspect has a false positive rate that is alarmingly high. -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ |
#8
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
Todd H. wrote: "Oscar_Lives" writes: Could be fine. Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, that's what I suspect too. This test is a dealer's wet (literally) dream, but I suspect has a false positive rate that is alarmingly high. -- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/ Pour a bucket of water over your open gas kitchen range and into your oven. I guess if a drop of water makes it under the burners, that should be thrown out too. |
#9
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
(Todd H.) wrote in :
I'm curious on opinions from pro's of the water test for residential heat exchangers advocated by Ellis Prach of http://www.heatexchangerexperts.com/ In this test, the tech pulls the blower, douses the exchanger with a water solution from a large sprayer, and then looks inside the combustion area for water penetration. If there's water getting in, they reason, you have a breached heat exchanger that they recommend replacing it. New exchangers from the factory aren't water tight. It has become increasingly difficult to ascertain whether or not a heat exchanger has been compromised due to rust or cracks. Newer exchangers are multi-pass, which makes visual inspections very limited. There can be other tell-tale signs of a faulty exchanger, such as popped rings on top of the blower housing, but again, very dificult to see unless you have a boroscope. A tripped limit or burner spill switch may also indicate a crack,hole, or separation. Flame distortion with the blower on, flame roll-out, continuous pilot outages caused by air from the fan blowing through a crack. (Always a good idea to operate the fan with the burners off and watch the pilot for distortion. I got fooled once as a rookie by a cracked heat exchanger. I replaced the t/couple on an older furnace thinking it was just old and tired. It blew out after I left and another tech picked up on it with the fan-on test.) The best advice I can give for homeowners is to have your furnace cleaned once a year, and have a CO detector on every level where people sleep. Replace it before it's old enough to vote. -- Respectfully, Bob |
#10
Posted to alt.hvac,alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
"water test" for residential heat exchangers - thoughts?
(Todd H.) wrote in :
I'm curious on opinions from pro's of the water test for residential heat exchangers advocated by Ellis Prach of http://www.heatexchangerexperts.com/ In this test, the tech pulls the blower, douses the exchanger with a water solution from a large sprayer, This technique wouldn't do much for all the insulation that is attached to inside of the furnace compartment.... -- Respectfully, Bob |
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Heat exchangers are fitted for a reason, to seperate the heating media from
the heated media. If you have a cross-over leak you have a problem that can't be ignored. V9isual inspection with a mirror or a camera is inadaquate, especially in a multi pass unit. A water test as discribed is fine however a water pressure test would be better. Doug |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Heat Pump confusion | Home Repair | |||
Brown's gas?? | Metalworking | |||
Followup: York heat pump replacement - quote sounds high, thoughts? | Home Repair | |||
Heat pump thermostat question | Home Repair | |||
Heat Keeps Shutting Off | Home Repair |