I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer

You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your 40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel or
you'll need a main breaker at that building




wrote in message
oups.com...
I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer

RBM (remove this) wrote:
You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your 40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel or
you'll need a main breaker at that building

Great, i have connectors and will seperate the N and G on all subs - In
this case will I need a grounding rod in Sub#1 since it's in the same
bld as the main?

If I drop the 40A to a 30A and only add 3 ckts max can I get away with
10/3? I really don't have room in the wellhouse for anything more than
the pressure tank and computer that runs the pump.

Thanks,
bigballer

You only need the ground rod in the out building. As long as your connected
loads can be handled by thirty amps it's fine


wrote in message
ups.com...

RBM (remove this) wrote:
You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your
40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel
or
you'll need a main breaker at that building

Great, i have connectors and will seperate the N and G on all subs - In
this case will I need a grounding rod in Sub#1 since it's in the same
bld as the main?

If I drop the 40A to a 30A and only add 3 ckts max can I get away with
10/3? I really don't have room in the wellhouse for anything more than
the pressure tank and computer that runs the pump.

Thanks,
bigballer

According to :

RBM (remove this) wrote:
You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your 40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel or
you'll need a main breaker at that building

Great, i have connectors and will seperate the N and G on all subs - In
this case will I need a grounding rod in Sub#1 since it's in the same
bld as the main?

If I drop the 40A to a 30A and only add 3 ckts max can I get away with
10/3? I really don't have room in the wellhouse for anything more than
the pressure tank and computer that runs the pump.

Remember that the length to the subpanel is 150', and to the pump
is another 350'. Voltage drop becomes an issue. You'll probably
need 8/3 for the feed to the subpanel (even at 30A), and you're going to have
to check the pump FLA and compute that voltage drop given various
wire sizes. The drop has to be under 3% for the pump FLA.
Assuming, for example, the pump is 10A at 240V, you will have to go up at
_least_ a wire size. Eg: if you breaker the pump line at 15A
for 10A FLA, the wire size should be at least 12ga, and possibly 10ga.


[I don't have the tables handy]

If you don't keep the voltage drop 3%, not only will the
electrical code be unhappy, the motor won't like it either.
[Motors don't like brownouts during startup surge.]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to :

RBM (remove this) wrote:
You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your 40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel or
you'll need a main breaker at that building

Great, i have connectors and will seperate the N and G on all subs - In
this case will I need a grounding rod in Sub#1 since it's in the same
bld as the main?

If I drop the 40A to a 30A and only add 3 ckts max can I get away with
10/3? I really don't have room in the wellhouse for anything more than
the pressure tank and computer that runs the pump.

Remember that the length to the subpanel is 150', and to the pump
is another 350'. Voltage drop becomes an issue. You'll probably
need 8/3 for the feed to the subpanel (even at 30A), and you're going to have
to check the pump FLA and compute that voltage drop given various
wire sizes. The drop has to be under 3% for the pump FLA.
Assuming, for example, the pump is 10A at 240V, you will have to go up at
_least_ a wire size. Eg: if you breaker the pump line at 15A
for 10A FLA, the wire size should be at least 12ga, and possibly 10ga.

The motor for the well pump is a 3 phase and draws 3.9A at Max. Goulds
site has a calculator for determining recommended wiring size based on
voltage drop over distance from service panel to controller and from
controller to pump. Based on their formula, as long as the final number
is less then 100% then the planned wiring size is ok. If more then 100
should move to the next wire size. According to my calulcations mine
comes in at 90 so I should be OK. I have also confirmed this with the
contractor who is installing the pump. I also found the recommended ckt
size for this motor is 15A so I'll make that change in my sub.

Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to :

RBM (remove this) wrote:
You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your 40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel or
you'll need a main breaker at that building

Great, i have connectors and will seperate the N and G on all subs - In
this case will I need a grounding rod in Sub#1 since it's in the same
bld as the main?

If I drop the 40A to a 30A and only add 3 ckts max can I get away with
10/3? I really don't have room in the wellhouse for anything more than
the pressure tank and computer that runs the pump.

Remember that the length to the subpanel is 150', and to the pump
is another 350'. Voltage drop becomes an issue. You'll probably
need 8/3 for the feed to the subpanel (even at 30A), and you're going to have
to check the pump FLA and compute that voltage drop given various
wire sizes. The drop has to be under 3% for the pump FLA.
Assuming, for example, the pump is 10A at 240V, you will have to go up at
_least_ a wire size. Eg: if you breaker the pump line at 15A
for 10A FLA, the wire size should be at least 12ga, and possibly 10ga.

The motor for the well pump is a 3 phase and draws 3.9A at Max. Goulds
site has a calculator for determining recommended wiring size based on
voltage drop over distance from service panel to controller and from
controller to pump. Based on their formula, as long as the final number
is less then 100% then the planned wiring size is ok. If more then 100
should move to the next wire size. According to my calulcations mine
comes in at 90 so I should be OK. I have also confirmed this with the
contractor who is installing the pump. I also found the recommended ckt
size for this motor is 15A so I'll make that change in my sub.

Three phase? Oooh. That's ... er ... unusual.

Yeah, the run from the sub to the pump sounds fine to me. 3.9A isn't
much. The 15A breaker will do a bit better at preventing damage to the
pump (or at least, consequent damage (eg: fire) as a result of a pump
problem).

By "service panel" in your above paragraph, are you talking
about the main/adjacent sub, or the "remote" sub? Remember that
the lines from the main panel to the "last sub before the pump"
will be carrying _more_ than just the pump alone, and as such,
the sub feed voltage drop has to be computed as a result of the
full sub ampacity (30 or 40A), not just the pump (3.9A).
10ga @ 30A over 150' seems skimpy to me. With 3ph, 30A is
a _lot_ of power. Do you really need that much?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

wrote:
I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer


Are you not going to have any 120 volt loads in the well house? Not
even a light or equipment servicing receptacle? The next addition of
the US National Electric Code will require separate Equipment Grounding
(earthing) Conductor (EGC) on all such feeders. If the neutral of a
feeder that does not include an EGC goes open or high impedance for any
reason then all exposed metallic surfaces in the well house will be
energized at 120 volts relative to any conductive surfaces that are more
effectively grounded such as a concrete or earthen floor. An EGC in the
feeder makes that type of occurrence far less likely.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
wrote:
I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer


Are you not going to have any 120 volt loads in the well house? Not
even a light or equipment servicing receptacle? The next addition of
the US National Electric Code will require separate Equipment Grounding
(earthing) Conductor (EGC) on all such feeders. If the neutral of a
feeder that does not include an EGC goes open or high impedance for any
reason then all exposed metallic surfaces in the well house will be
energized at 120 volts relative to any conductive surfaces that are more
effectively grounded such as a concrete or earthen floor. An EGC in the
feeder makes that type of occurrence far less likely.

There is a seperate direct wirder 12/2 run already in the wellhouse for
120v which I may continue to use. On the new panel I am adding a 15A
220 for the pump and controller could put in a 15A 110v for the lights
and outlet and abandon the 12/2. I am planning on adding a grounding
rod to the new sub in the wellhouse.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to :

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to :

RBM (remove this) wrote:
You don't need a conduit if you use cable and connectors and you must
separate ground and neutral busses on sub panels. You need 8/3 for your 40
amp feed to sub three and you can have up to six circuits in that panel or
you'll need a main breaker at that building

Great, i have connectors and will seperate the N and G on all subs - In
this case will I need a grounding rod in Sub#1 since it's in the same
bld as the main?

If I drop the 40A to a 30A and only add 3 ckts max can I get away with
10/3? I really don't have room in the wellhouse for anything more than
the pressure tank and computer that runs the pump.

Remember that the length to the subpanel is 150', and to the pump
is another 350'. Voltage drop becomes an issue. You'll probably
need 8/3 for the feed to the subpanel (even at 30A), and you're going to have
to check the pump FLA and compute that voltage drop given various
wire sizes. The drop has to be under 3% for the pump FLA.
Assuming, for example, the pump is 10A at 240V, you will have to go up at
_least_ a wire size. Eg: if you breaker the pump line at 15A
for 10A FLA, the wire size should be at least 12ga, and possibly 10ga.

The motor for the well pump is a 3 phase and draws 3.9A at Max. Goulds
site has a calculator for determining recommended wiring size based on
voltage drop over distance from service panel to controller and from
controller to pump. Based on their formula, as long as the final number
is less then 100% then the planned wiring size is ok. If more then 100
should move to the next wire size. According to my calulcations mine
comes in at 90 so I should be OK. I have also confirmed this with the
contractor who is installing the pump. I also found the recommended ckt
size for this motor is 15A so I'll make that change in my sub.

Three phase? Oooh. That's ... er ... unusual.

It's a variable speed motor which will be monitored by the controller.
They call it a Constant Pressure system. It doesn't need a surge of
power required to start like a single phase motor needs. It starts slow
and as more pressure is needed the controller let's the motor know and
it increases as needed. The pressure tank will only be 4 1/2 gallons.


Yeah, the run from the sub to the pump sounds fine to me. 3.9A isn't
much. The 15A breaker will do a bit better at preventing damage to the
pump (or at least, consequent damage (eg: fire) as a result of a pump
problem).

By "service panel" in your above paragraph, are you talking
about the main/adjacent sub, or the "remote" sub?

I am referring to the main/adjacent Sub.


Remember that the lines from the main panel to the "last sub before the pump"
will be carrying _more_ than just the pump alone, and as such,
the sub feed voltage drop has to be computed as a result of the
full sub ampacity (30 or 40A), not just the pump (3.9A).
10ga @ 30A over 150' seems skimpy to me. With 3ph, 30A is
a _lot_ of power. Do you really need that much?

The 3ph only requires a 15A so I'll use that instead of the 30A. If the
10/3 isn't enough to support an outlet and a light (on seperate 20/15A
120v) ckts then I'll just leave the existing run functional and
continue to use it for the outlets/light.

--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

wrote:

There is a seperate direct wirder 12/2 run already in the wellhouse for
120v which I may continue to use. On the new panel I am adding a 15A
220 for the pump and controller could put in a 15A 110v for the lights
and outlet and abandon the 12/2. I am planning on adding a grounding
rod to the new sub in the wellhouse.



A building is only allowed to be fed by one circuit (with a few
exceptions that probably don't apply here.) I think you'll need to
abandon the old 120V line.

Bob

I missed something here. Where is the three phase coming from? All of the
wiring you've described is for single phase 120/240, but you are going to
use a three phase well pump.


wrote in message
oups.com...

Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
wrote:
I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer


Are you not going to have any 120 volt loads in the well house? Not
even a light or equipment servicing receptacle? The next addition of
the US National Electric Code will require separate Equipment Grounding
(earthing) Conductor (EGC) on all such feeders. If the neutral of a
feeder that does not include an EGC goes open or high impedance for any
reason then all exposed metallic surfaces in the well house will be
energized at 120 volts relative to any conductive surfaces that are more
effectively grounded such as a concrete or earthen floor. An EGC in the
feeder makes that type of occurrence far less likely.

There is a seperate direct wirder 12/2 run already in the wellhouse for
120v which I may continue to use. On the new panel I am adding a 15A
220 for the pump and controller could put in a 15A 110v for the lights
and outlet and abandon the 12/2. I am planning on adding a grounding
rod to the new sub in the wellhouse.

wrote:
Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
wrote:
I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer

Are you not going to have any 120 volt loads in the well house? Not
even a light or equipment servicing receptacle? The next addition of
the US National Electric Code will require separate Equipment Grounding
(earthing) Conductor (EGC) on all such feeders. If the neutral of a
feeder that does not include an EGC goes open or high impedance for any
reason then all exposed metallic surfaces in the well house will be
energized at 120 volts relative to any conductive surfaces that are more
effectively grounded such as a concrete or earthen floor. An EGC in the
feeder makes that type of occurrence far less likely.

There is a seperate direct wirder 12/2 run already in the wellhouse for
120v which I may continue to use. On the new panel I am adding a 15A
220 for the pump and controller could put in a 15A 110v for the lights
and outlet and abandon the 12/2. I am planning on adding a grounding
rod to the new sub in the wellhouse.


Having two circuits supply the same building, in this case your well
house; unless one of the circuits is for a different voltage or for
specifically allowed circuits; is a violation of the US NEC.

"225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property
and under single management, each additional building or other structure
served that is on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall
be supplied by one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire
branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
(A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be
permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or
branch circuits shall be permitted for the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for
supply equipment accessible to all occupants, or
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to make two
or more supplies necessary.
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall
be permitted where the capacity requirements are in excess of 2000
amperes at a supply voltage of 600 volts or less.
(D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or branch circuits
shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for
different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations.
(E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders or branch
circuits shall be permitted to supply installations under single
management where documented safe switching procedures are established
and maintained for disconnection." Copyright 2002 National Fire
Protection Association

Almost none of the exceptions actually applies to a single family
residence that does not have a permanently installed emergency or
standby power supply. Most AHJs will allow a second supply to a
building for a water pump ,also intended to provide fire protection,
that is supplied from a remote Service Disconnecting Means even though
section 225.34, Grouping of Disconnects, that allows for the remote
service disconnecting means was never reconciled with 225.30.

225.34 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in 225.33 shall be
grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked to indicate the load served.
Exception: One of the two to six disconnecting means permitted in
225.33, where used only for a water pump also intended to provide fire
protection, shall be permitted to be located remote from the other
disconnecting means.


--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

zxcvbob wrote:
wrote:

There is a seperate direct wirder 12/2 run already in the wellhouse for
120v which I may continue to use. On the new panel I am adding a 15A
220 for the pump and controller could put in a 15A 110v for the lights
and outlet and abandon the 12/2. I am planning on adding a grounding
rod to the new sub in the wellhouse.



A building is only allowed to be fed by one circuit (with a few
exceptions that probably don't apply here.) I think you'll need to
abandon the old 120V line.

Bob

The old 12/2 line can be used for an outdoor light at the well house
that is controlled by a set of switches located elsewhere, for a circuit
that is supplied from an alternate source of power, or if the three
phase power for the well is produced in another building.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

RBM (remove this) wrote:
I missed something here. Where is the three phase coming from? All of the
wiring you've described is for single phase 120/240, but you are going to
use a three phase well pump.


the controller for the pump coverts the power from single to 3 phase.
apparently this is a common configuration for a varible speed pump.

Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
wrote:
Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
wrote:
I have added a 60A 2pole to my Main service panel with plans of adding
a Sub adjacent to it and from there connect it to another Sub in my
wellhouse which is 150ft away. My plan is to come off the 60A in the
Main with 6AWG and wire into the main block on Sub#1 (4 wires - 2 hot,
1 neutral, 1 ground. In this Sub I will run a 40A/220 ckt using 10/3
out to the well house where Sub#2 will be. I plan to connect the 10/3
in the same manner to Sub#2 as I did between Sub#1 and Main but since
this is in a different bldg and I don't have a steel cold water pipe in
the wellhouse, I will drive a grounding rod and connect it to the
ground bus. From Sub#2, I will run 20 or 30A/220 (12/3UF) to the well
pump located 350ft away and also add a couple more small ckts to
seperate the light switch and 110 outlet.

Couple questions:

1) Do I need to run a conduit between the Main and Sub#1? There is a
2x4 stud running vertical between them and they will both be up against
the stud. So will the stud suffice as "conduit"?

2) If I don't run a conduit between them should I split the Neutral and
Ground busses on Sub#1? If so, do I need a grounding rod there as well?

3) Overall how does this design look? Anything drastically wrong with
how I plan to do it?

I should also mention the reason I am adding Sub#1 is because I am out
of room in the Main and plan to add another Sub (#3) in the Barn later
this fall. Otherwise I would just run the 60A from the main to the Sub
in said wellhouse and be done (I'm planning ahead).

Thanks for the input
-bigballer

Are you not going to have any 120 volt loads in the well house? Not
even a light or equipment servicing receptacle? The next addition of
the US National Electric Code will require separate Equipment Grounding
(earthing) Conductor (EGC) on all such feeders. If the neutral of a
feeder that does not include an EGC goes open or high impedance for any
reason then all exposed metallic surfaces in the well house will be
energized at 120 volts relative to any conductive surfaces that are more
effectively grounded such as a concrete or earthen floor. An EGC in the
feeder makes that type of occurrence far less likely.

There is a seperate direct wirder 12/2 run already in the wellhouse for
120v which I may continue to use. On the new panel I am adding a 15A
220 for the pump and controller could put in a 15A 110v for the lights
and outlet and abandon the 12/2. I am planning on adding a grounding
rod to the new sub in the wellhouse.


Having two circuits supply the same building, in this case your well
house; unless one of the circuits is for a different voltage or for
specifically allowed circuits; is a violation of the US NEC.

"225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property
and under single management, each additional building or other structure
served that is on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall
be supplied by one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in
225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire
branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
(A) Special Conditions. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be
permitted to supply the following:
(1) Fire pumps
(2) Emergency systems
(3) Legally required standby systems
(4) Optional standby systems
(5) Parallel power production systems
(B) Special Occupancies. By special permission, additional feeders or
branch circuits shall be permitted for the following:
(1) Multiple-occupancy buildings where there is no space available for
supply equipment accessible to all occupants, or
(2) A single building or other structure sufficiently large to make two
or more supplies necessary.
(C) Capacity Requirements. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall
be permitted where the capacity requirements are in excess of 2000
amperes at a supply voltage of 600 volts or less.
(D) Different Characteristics. Additional feeders or branch circuits
shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or phases or for
different uses, such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations.
(E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders or branch
circuits shall be permitted to supply installations under single
management where documented safe switching procedures are established
and maintained for disconnection." Copyright 2002 National Fire
Protection Association

Almost none of the exceptions actually applies to a single family
residence that does not have a permanently installed emergency or
standby power supply. Most AHJs will allow a second supply to a
building for a water pump ,also intended to provide fire protection,
that is supplied from a remote Service Disconnecting Means even though
section 225.34, Grouping of Disconnects, that allows for the remote
service disconnecting means was never reconciled with 225.30.

225.34 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in 225.33 shall be
grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked to indicate the load served.
Exception: One of the two to six disconnecting means permitted in
225.33, where used only for a water pump also intended to provide fire
protection, shall be permitted to be located remote from the other
disconnecting means.


i never had plans to keep this configuration, i only stated there was
existing 12/2 wiring in place for the outlet/light. clearly i need to
abandon the line and will move the outlet/light to a new ckt on the
subpanel. thanks for the heads up.

wrote:

i never had plans to keep this configuration, i only stated there was
existing 12/2 wiring in place for the outlet/light. clearly i need to
abandon the line and will move the outlet/light to a new ckt on the
subpanel. thanks for the heads up.



I like the idea of using the old 12/2 wiring as a switch loop for an
outside light -- powered by the pumphouse panel and controlled from the
house.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
wrote:

i never had plans to keep this configuration, i only stated there was
existing 12/2 wiring in place for the outlet/light. clearly i need to
abandon the line and will move the outlet/light to a new ckt on the
subpanel. thanks for the heads up.



I like the idea of using the old 12/2 wiring as a switch loop for an
outside light -- powered by the pumphouse panel and controlled from the
house.

Bob


i have completed the project and it all looks really good. I am using
the old wiring to power an outside light which is switched on from the
house. the other wiring came in great and the panel is clean. the last
thing i need to do is drive a ground rod and connect the ground bar.
thanks for all the replies!